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View Full Version : I-16 view porked all this time??



Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Am I the only one who noticed this google video?
Check out the rear ward view...that head protector doesnt interfere with the rear view like it does in the game.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=420326487553789...ype=search&plindex=3 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4203264875537898161&q=I-16&total=197&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3)

Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Am I the only one who noticed this google video?
Check out the rear ward view...that head protector doesnt interfere with the rear view like it does in the game.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=420326487553789...ype=search&plindex=3 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4203264875537898161&q=I-16&total=197&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3)

danjama
07-12-2007, 09:26 AM
im sure that if that camera lens was stuck to a point in the centre of the chair and only allowed to move based on that point, it would be able to see almost exactly what we see. How many times do we have to go through this?

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 09:46 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/i-16.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/i-162.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/i-163.jpg


vs:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/gamei-16.jpg


Same crappy view in most planes.

Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
How many times do we have to go through this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, if it annoys you, I'd hope a thousand more.

BBB_Hyperion
07-12-2007, 10:25 AM
The BAR Problem be sure.

DKoor
07-12-2007, 10:45 AM
They put a 1,55m guy to evaluate all those in cockpit views.

DKoor
07-12-2007, 10:49 AM
And 1,45m one to evaluate Italian planes.

MEGILE
07-12-2007, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
And 1,45m one to evaluate Italian planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Presumably it is so you can see the gagues without having to look down.

SeaFireLIV
07-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Track IR with 6DOF capability is what we need. Pity we`re unlikely to get it for IL2...

Stuntie
07-12-2007, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Track IR with 6DOF capability is what we need. Pity we`re unlikely to get it for IL2... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, he is leaning out and round for the rear shots. Something that needs 6DOF and an open cockpit.

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 11:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Track IR with 6DOF capability is what we need. Pity we`re unlikely to get it for IL2... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's not the problem. There's something wrong in almost all pits. Most of them have the point of view either too low or somehow looking down into the nose not straight ahead. This may have something to do with the fact that cockpits and the rest of the aircraft were made separate and hooked together in the game engine. They were not built inside the plane.

In one plane the pit was mounted higher, much higher. The Spitfire Mk.Vc I think. In that plane the pit is installed almost a foot higher.
I'm sure in some cases the pit and plane is not aligned properly and that could be one of the many reasons the views are so off in some cases.

But i could be barking to the wrong tree entirely. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 11:49 AM
In quite a few planes you can clearly see the gunsight is mounted lower then it should.I-16 is the same. Just compare the gunsight from outside view with the cockpit view.
In the outside view you can clearly see the gunsight is much higher.

The IAR-801 is another example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/post-3-1112695330.jpg

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 11:58 AM
The problem is definitely lack of 6 DOF---with 6 DOF your view is allowed to float in the cockpit just as it does in this video. You can look down to check your view through the peep holes in the wheel wells as well as see around the turnover pylon behind your head (which should not be as high as Gibraltar as in IL-2). This is why I can't stand online play in IL-2. Can't wait for BOB and the fix. Using FSX clearly demonstrated to me what was wrong with the views in IL-2 models. IL-2 is marvelous, but it has this damned flaw. It is a real pity.

alert_1
07-12-2007, 12:07 PM
Try Ki43 I and *then* complain about other planes..

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The problem is definitely lack of 6 DOF---with 6 DOF your view is allowed to float in the cockpit just as it does in this video. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That's that a way to find the problem.
It doesn't matter that you have 6DOF. If your pit (built separately outside the plane), is not perfectly aligned with the rest of the plane when they drop it in there, you can get all kind of side effects.

When people were arguing the FW-190 forward view back few good years ago there were few pics with wire frames only that showed the FW-190 pit simply exceeding the physical boundaries of the aircraft. You could clearly see pieces of the pit sticking out above the cowling and the pit being few degrees offset in the vertical.

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 12:52 PM
No matter how you cut it, it comes back to 6 DOF. If you have never used it in FSX, you would not understand. The floating view is something IL-2 players will have to learn when BOB arrives. If you have ever used 6 DOF, IL-2's views look completely phony. The ultimate 6 DOF perspective is in the realistic reflector sight in some of BOB II's cockpits: your head has to be precisely postioned to use the gunsight---you can't just hit "gunsight view" and have it done for you.

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 12:58 PM
I'm used with 6DOF. I flew Aces High, and you could move your head anywhere inside the cockpit even before TrackIR was on the market. Since i got TIR, I use 6DOF in BOB2, Aces High and FSX as well.
While you can look around some flaws of the cockpit with 6DOF, you can't fix them.

SeaFireLIV
07-12-2007, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:



That's that a way to find the problem.
It doesn't matter that you have 6DOF. If your pit (built separately outside the plane), is not perfectly aligned with the rest of the plane when they drop it in there, you can get all kind of side effects.

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What`s to say the pit won`t be correctly aligned? Also personal alignment is also easily done with the TIR settings. I agree with leitmotiv, with tir 6dof we`d have the problem solved and view just like that film clip.

I don`t see the problem.

Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If your pit (built separately outside the plane), is not perfectly aligned with the rest of the plane when they drop it in there, you can get all kind of side effects.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, ask Ford and Chevy about that.
Even with a stiff neck camera angle that thing behind your head in the I-16 shouldn't obscure such a huge portion of the rear view...
If I hadn't been arrested in that museum climing into the cockpit with my camera, I'd be able to shut you all up!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 01:24 PM
Jaws, I don't know what you are talking about. If you mean the cockpit for a 6 DOF airplane may be misaligned, of course, there is that possibility, but I am using many aircraft with 6 DOF, and I do not encounter that problem very often. That, of course, has nothing to do with the entire set of views which are completely buggered which is the case with IL-2. The problem with IL-2 is that you can't check six worth a hang unless you are in the Yak-3. If you are in the I-16, you have to just give up on checking six unless you are not in combat (when you can do wide fishtails).

Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 01:25 PM
Look at the pit.
Its narrow enough you can lean your arm out.
With your arms inside, and stiff neck pivot, the rear simply shouldn't cover so much.
BTW, this pilot is 6 feet tall, not 7...in game the pilot looks like a 4 1/2 foot tall kid.

http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/images/main/98_wanaka/WANI16M.JPG

Hawgdog
07-12-2007, 01:29 PM
http://www.fighterfactory.com/airplane-gallery/assets/i.../polii16gallery7.jpg (http://www.fighterfactory.com/airplane-gallery/assets/images/polii16gallery7.jpg)


Rata skis!!!

http://www.fighterfactory.com/airplane-gallery/assets/i...i16ratagallery11.jpg (http://www.fighterfactory.com/airplane-gallery/assets/images/polii16ratagallery11.jpg)

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 01:35 PM
I'm with you Hawgdog. The I-16 and I-153 are my favorites and I've always thought the I-16 got stiffed bigtime with that crazy rear view they gave it.

Jaws2002
07-12-2007, 03:23 PM
Few years ago I read a Russian pilot's interview.(I think one of the first Crazy Ivan posted). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Anyway, when asked how they would check their six, the I-16 pilot said he would turn and stretch until he could see his tailweel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I think the interview may be in one of the links posted by FPSOLKOR in the top.

joeap
07-12-2007, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
And 1,45m one to evaluate Italian planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Presumably it is so you can see the gagues without having to look down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya know I really like your sig Megile.

SeaFireLIV
07-12-2007, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I'm with you Hawgdog. The I-16 and I-153 are my favorites and I've always thought the I-16 got stiffed bigtime with that crazy rear view they gave it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I always thought the I16 rear-view was somewhat unfair, but with every luftwhiner and their grandma crucifying it I was gald to have something that could just fly! One of my fave `****` planes too. It has character... and if my scanner was working I`d do a pic to prove it!

Lurch1962
07-12-2007, 04:48 PM
Seems to me that the BIG head rest in the I-16 is simply the result of the virtual viewpoint being so close to it, kind of like your pilot has his noggin resting against it. Moreover, as you all know, that viewpoint is represented as simply one point in space, like an eyeball on a stalk sticking up out of the pilot's spine, with its 3-D position being probably more like *within* the head instead of on the face. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Moreover, a real person swivels his head through a fair sized arc when looking over the shoulder.

--Lurch--

leitmotiv
07-12-2007, 05:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Seems to me that the BIG head rest in the I-16 is simply the result of the virtual viewpoint being so close to it, kind of like your pilot has his noggin resting against it. Moreover, as you all know, that viewpoint is represented as simply one point in space, like an eyeball on a stalk sticking up out of the pilot's spine, with its 3-D position being probably more like *within* the head instead of on the face. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Moreover, a real person swivels his head through a fair sized arc when looking over the shoulder.

--Lurch-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bunkum. Look at the vid in the first post.

Lurch1962
07-12-2007, 05:42 PM
Leitmotiv,
Until I fire up IL-2 at home, I'll rely on memory for now, and provisionally stand by my views.

That was a crappy vid (lots of hand-induced shake and generally poor technique.) The rearward view was about 2 seconds long, but clearly was obtained by holding the camera offset to port of the centerline, enough to fully clear the headrest.

The only shot which gave a relatively decent perspective was the still shot, at the end, showing our intrepid (and fortunate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) videographer in the cockpit. The rather side-on view foreshortens perspective, but the headrest appears to be not terribly wide.

However, if one took a photo with the lens only a few short inches from the headrest, with even a wide angle lens that headrest will occupy the entire image, or at least most of it.

What I really suspect is that the pilot's viewpoint is placed unrealistically too far back in the I-16 'pit, so that the virtual eyeball (note the singular usage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) is almost up against the headrest, resulting in its huge apparent size.

--Lurch--

Polyperhon
07-13-2007, 09:14 AM
the view is fixed in one virtual head position,usually in line with the gunsight.In theory we can have a virtual head moving on the cockpit ,but it would be too complicated for fight.In some cases is more than a penalty than others.In the I-16 moving the head a bit should clear the head rest out of the way.Another case is the P-38.Moving the head a bit should improve greatly rear vision and make the framing less annoying.

leitmotiv
07-13-2007, 12:17 PM
Roll on BOB with 6 DOF and end the silliness. Meanwhile, I'll use FSX when I want real views, and IL-2 for bashing.