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ARCHIE_CALVERT
05-07-2006, 06:59 AM
Looks like it's moved along a tad... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showb...73&in_a_source=&ct=5 (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=385374&in_page_id=1773&in_a_source=&ct=5)

ARCHIE_CALVERT
05-07-2006, 06:59 AM
Looks like it's moved along a tad... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showb...73&in_a_source=&ct=5 (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=385374&in_page_id=1773&in_a_source=&ct=5)

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-07-2006, 07:09 AM
Bit gutless not changing the music - why bother with a new version at all if they're arguing that already? Jackson at the helm is a relief, though - noted for his attention to detail.

MrBlueSky1960
05-07-2006, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkVb:
Bit gutless not changing the music - why bother with a new version at all if they're arguing that already? Jackson at the helm is a relief, though - noted for his attention to detail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I think that would be a mistake, it's synominous (Spelling?) with the film and the story now... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It would be like changing the theme of Dr Who... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

PBNA-Boosher
05-07-2006, 08:07 AM
During King Kong, Jackson realized that there were no surviving examples of that Helldiver left in the world, so he built one himself, a working model, to use.

It should now be sitting in a USAF museum, as he donated it.
Let's hope he does the same with the Lanc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

panther3485
05-07-2006, 08:16 AM
I'm happy for the original musical score to be retained.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


I sincerely hope they do not surrender to 'political correctness' and that the dog is referred to by it's historically correct name. The movie should unashamedly show how people spoke in those days - the good, the bad and the embarrassing - frankly, exactly and without 'retrospective editing'.

I look forward to a great movie.


Best regards,
panther3485

djetz
05-07-2006, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bit gutless not changing the music </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I expect they'll do a new version of the old music, rather than re-use the existing recording. And I think that's a good idea - it's a great tune that really adds to the whole feel of the original movie, and a remake of the film wouldn't be as good without it.

mandrill7
05-07-2006, 08:51 AM
They could easily work around the dog'd name simply by having Gibson call "here, boy!" and never naming the beast. The word ****** is so extremely offensive today that it would be tempting fate to include it.

The major problem with the film is that the old script was simply AWFUL. The characters were pure wood. There was no character development or interplay. Special effects aside, it would simply never "fly" as a generally accessible big budget motion picture today. The movie needs a total re-write or else it will come over as a "period piece" about British movie making in the 50's, rather than as a currently viable interesting film.

The screenwriting for mid-90's version of "The Memphis Belle" is a decent example of how to make the characters a little more engaging. And there is certainly fodder for interesting writing in mid-War Bomber Command. Gibson himself was a complex and far from totally likeable character. And it would be interesting to work in other personality types and show how the grind and stress of flying and fighting acted on them. (There's the whole sub-issue of the "LMF" classification).

The Len Deighton novel "Bomber" - although a bit of a victim of the late 60's anti-war fad - is an excellent example of writing about the different character types in a Lanc and how they interacted with their environment.

panther3485
05-07-2006, 09:03 AM
Quote:
"They could easily work around the dog's name simply by having Gibson call "here, boy!" and never naming the beast."

Good idea, mandrill7 - a very acceptable compromise, IMHO. I think it's more the possibility that they might 'create' a different but similar sounding name, e.g; 'trigger', that would annoy me. 'Here, boy' is fine! [Not that they're gonna listen to me anyway.]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Edit: As for the sub-issue of LMF, OK for Bomber Command generally perhaps, but for 617 Sqn? Was there a single instance of 'LMF' in this unit?


Best regards,
panther3485

ploughman
05-07-2006, 09:04 AM
This is fan-freakin-tastic news. And PJ at the helm too! One things for sure, it'll look totally awesome.

djetz
05-07-2006, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mandrill7:

The Len Deighton novel "Bomber" - although a bit of a victim of the late 60's anti-war fad - is an excellent example of writing about the different character types in a Lanc and how they interacted with their environment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that they should make the characters a bit more lifelike, but panther3485 is right - 617 Sqn was all "picked men" and I'm pretty sure none of them was grounded due to LMF. That would be an interesting topic for a film, but not relevant to this particular film. Of course, even the men of 617 no doubt suffered from the stresses of the job, and that should be shown in this film. Courage isn't a lack of fear, courage is overcoming your fear.

Getting to the Len Deighton book - I thought that was a great book, the best WW2 aviation fiction I've read. I liked the fact that it didn't gloss over the fact that it was extremely brutal for the people on the recieving end of the allied bomber campaign.

I certainly don't consider myself "pro-war" - I find war fascinating but that doesn't mean I think it's a good thing, by any means. I understand that war is necessary sometimes, that there isn't any real alternative at times, but that doesn't mean I think it's ever anything but a tragedy for the people involved. It's true that the tragedy of war can bring out great and noble things in ordinary people, but that does not make it any the less a terrible thing.

I think "the late 60's anti-war fad" was a good thing - people in general became better informed about how propaganda works and how populations and whole nations can be manipulated into being in favour of war. Of course, in the Viet Nam era a lot of the negativity about that particular war was directed towards the soldiers, which was wrong - the soldiers were the biggest victims of political propaganda and manipulation.

If there was a strong anti-war movement in, say, 1930s Japan or Germany - like there was in England and the US at the time - then there is a good chance that a hell of a lot of people would have been a lot better off, not least the populations of Japan and Germany themselves. When it came time to fight, and the reasons were right, both the UK and the US fought as well as anyone. And that includes many people who were part of the 1930s pacifist movements.

While it's well known that the Oxford Union debating society voted in favour of the proposition "This House will under no circumstances fight for King and Country" in 1933, it's not so widely known that almost to a man they signed up when the time came, and many of them ended up decorated for bravery in combat. Yes, it was an unwise thing to say in 1933, but it was a hell of a lot more admirable than what the people who gave their support to various flavours of fascism said and did.

reverendkrv1972
05-07-2006, 12:05 PM
looking like it will be a faithfull reMAKE of the original,not a reMIX...good news http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AWL_Spinner
05-07-2006, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They could easily work around the dog'd name simply by having Gibson call "here, boy!" and never naming the beast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they're not going to have the nuts to present things as they actually were instead of applying the politically correct filter, that's the only possibility that wouldn't be an insult to history.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The word ****** is so extremely offensive today that it would be tempting fate to include it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch any street/gangsta/rap culture film and it's all over the place, I'm afraid. The idea that THAT's not offensive and yet a history piece from the 1940s IS is, in itself, offensive! Although it'll be all over the liberal hand-wringing media, you betcha.

Not sure PJ's King Kong improved in any way on the original so am dubious about this one.

He, is, however, a WWII aircraft nut so there is some hope, although I have a deep mistrust about CGI aircraft which generally look terrible compared to real air-to-air photography. No-matter how clever the studios think they're being.

p1ngu666
05-07-2006, 12:56 PM
its ok if its a black guy saying it. but not for a white person. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

ploughman
05-07-2006, 02:22 PM
Regardless of the context, motives, etc., of Guy Gibson and the name he gave his black lab, any film released at this time in which someone calls his black dog ****** is only going to be remembered because of the fury it caused. The dog will have another name, and we'll remember it for other reasons, and PJ and any studio that's invovled will have sod all to do with a dog called ******, and I don't blame them.

This is a great story, and the
anachronistic name of some dog is not going to ruin it.

Aaron_GT
05-07-2006, 03:34 PM
So who will be playing Guy Gibson? Tom Cruise? Matt Damon? Bruce Willis? Orland Bloom? Jude Law?

leitmotiv
05-07-2006, 05:37 PM
We know much more about Gibson now since his unedited memoir was recently published and one of his dams raid pilots in a recent article about the raid described him as quintessentialy Public School, snobby, and not very chummy. No lustre off his heroic stature, just makes him more human. Man there will be one hell of a Lanc sim to come out of this, I'll bet!!!! The dog should keep his name---history is history---political correctness be damned.

tagTaken2
05-07-2006, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Man there will be one hell of a Lanc sim to come out of this, I'll bet!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bet is that the lancaster whine on this board will rise to a screaming...

Somebody might redo the justflight cfs 2 dambusters... *dusts off cfs3 disk*

LStarosta
05-07-2006, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
So who will be playing Guy Gibson? Tom Cruise? Matt Damon? Bruce Willis? Orland Bloom? Jude Law? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chuck Norris.

leitmotiv
05-07-2006, 06:30 PM
Those guys at Just Flight are just about to release a magnitude 1 Lanc sim for---oh the humanity! #!&%%##@!!! FS2004---aggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/ft6v9 (Go to "Flight Sim Add-ons" and scroll for "LANCASTER")

If only it had been for CFS3---SOB WAIL!!!!!!

tagTaken2
05-07-2006, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Those guys at Just Flight are just about to release a magnitude 1 Lanc sim for---oh the humanity! #!&%%##@!!! FS2004---aggggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/ft6v9

If only it had been for CFS3---SOB WAIL!!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It might still be... they use the same engine, so stuff that is released normally works on both. Any justflight link defaults to their new product page http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif, so not sure I'm looking at the right thing.

leitmotiv
05-07-2006, 07:16 PM
Sorry about that, tagTaken2, look again at the link---I added the details to get to the information.

tagTaken2
05-07-2006, 07:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Sorry about that, tagTaken2, look again at the link---I added the details to get to the information. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scroll down to the "avro lancaster" bit. Happier now?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.aeroplaneheaven.com/hangar_dyn.php?PLperiod=WW2

Bo_Nidle
05-07-2006, 08:07 PM
I'm very pleased to see that Peter jackson is at the helm for this one. His "Rings" Trilogy is a cinematic landmark and I thoroughly enjoyed "King Kong".

The special effects in those films are absolutely state-of-the-art and to imagine the raid recreated in this manner is something to truly look forward to!

The budget is impressive too!

Jacksons use of music is second to none and IMHO you cannot have a film about the Dambusters without the classic Dambusters March it is now so synonomous with the event that it is even an established Marching piece for the Royal Air Force (I marched onto more than one parade ground during my time in the RAF to this piece of music).

As for the name of the dog: Yes it is rightly offensive today. But it should be put into context. It was not intended to be insulting or offensive when he named his beloved dog. It was a reflection of a different way of thinking by a different generation. We are now more enlightened and sensitive to the feelings of others (or at least we like to think we are)but we should not shrink away from portraying historical events accurately,however uncomfortable certain aspects of them may make us feel."Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes" is a saying I strongly agree with.

The suggestion, made by some here, of calling his dog by another name will also damage the historical accuracy in another way. The name of Gibsons dog was also the codeword transmitted by the crews to signal a successful attack!

Now that I know its going to be a Peter Jackson film I am really looking forwards to seeing this in the cinema.

I've always been fascinated by the events of the raid and recently acquired this beauty for my Nicholas Trudgian collection in my living room which now stands at 5 prints.

http://www.rbd26.dial.pipex.com/breachdm.jpg

panther3485
05-07-2006, 08:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Great post, Bo_Nidle

And....I'm very, very jealous of your new pictorial acquisition. Could see that hanging on my alcove wall very nicely!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Best regards,
panther3485

Freelancer-1
05-07-2006, 08:29 PM
No matter what, this movie is going to end up being about the stupid dogs name. My, we do love controversy.

P.J. will do what he does best and we will either like it or not.

But... ENOUGH ABOUT THE DOG....

leitmotiv
05-08-2006, 12:11 AM
Great news, indeed, tagTaken2---thank you for the tip. The Lanc is a bit huge for joyrides on FS2004.

The dog will be the main event, Freelancer_1, because the trivial is all that this world can bear, and, since Jackson is a god in film right now, it will be the means for his enemies to plague him no matter what he does with it.

WTE_Googly
05-08-2006, 12:55 AM
The dog's name simply cannot be changed. As someone said '******' was to be transmitted if the raid was a success, what would they do there? Political correctness can be dam'd http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. Can't really believe this issue came up in the first place...

Really looking forward to it - Peter Jackson is a good bloke (and a Kiwi), and will do a good job of it.

Can't wait http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WOLFMondo
05-08-2006, 01:18 AM
I think this film will be great. I don't hold the same opinion as the EA spin off game.

stathem
05-08-2006, 03:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I think this film will be great. I don't hold the same opinion as the EA spin off game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol at that last.

Lokking forward to it. (the film that is) If it proves succesful at the box office, I wonder what the chances are of a sequel, about the time Leonard Cheshire took over 617. Their story didn't end once the Dams were broken. (noting that the rights to Paul Brickhill's book are being discussed)

JG52Uther
05-08-2006, 04:19 AM
I think (hope) it will be a great film.As to character development,I think they have to be careful.These were men of 1940's England (and the Commonwealth http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) and I would hate to see them given a 21st century outlook.
From the books I have read about Gibson,he was not a likeable man,but he was a man of his time.
Public school educated,with a strong sense of duty.As for the dogs name,its a shame,but I think they will change it,or the publicity they get will be the wrong sort.

GrinderX9
05-08-2006, 07:10 AM
N igger is Latin and means Black. Caling the Dog Black in the movie whouldent be that wrong, and not a ofensiv name for a black dog I think.

panther3485
05-08-2006, 07:48 AM
Hi there, GrinderX9

Quote:
"N igger is Latin and means Black."

Actually, the word in Latin is niger (small 'n' and only one 'g'), which means, as you said, 'black'.

The word you mentioned, as used over the last few centuries, was generally derived from the word 'Negro'. This word was the simple term for a person of the so-called 'Negro' race, i.e. a person who was a black native African ('negro' also being the word for 'black' in some modern latin-based languages).

'Negro' then became distorted to 'Negra' or 'Nigra' by lazy speech, this in turn being corrupted into the other 'N' word that is generally found to be offensive today.

And therein lies the problem, as we try to balance our desire for historical authenticity on the one hand, against the requirements to avoid offense.

I have my opinion on how this should be handled but my conviction is that it won't be done the way I (and others of like mind) think it should be.

That said, there is no denying the offensive nature of the word and we need to be very careful here, even as we discuss it.


Best regards,
panther3485

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-08-2006, 08:08 AM
If PJ is at the helm of this film then I will look forward to seeing this one. As has been stated already all of PJ's recent cinema endevours have been excellent. And he is one of the few directors out there who's material feels like it was actualy designed and produced for the CINEMA and not just another flah in the pan straight to dvd knock off, like the pathetic star wars saga and shlock horror dritt.

As for the dogs name, well that is exactley the kind of storm in a tea cup kind of bushrit I would expect the tabloid media to comeout with and treat it as such pointless drivel with no real bearing on the true story.

x6BL_Brando
05-08-2006, 08:12 AM
I can't agree with this idea that anything touted on the media that is offensive to a large group of the population is OK if it's "in context". To me that's as cheesy as many of the declarations made from behind the mantle of "political-correctness".

It may well be that Gibson named his Labrador after the dark-brown shoe polish that was sold throughout Britain at the time. ******-brown was also a normal usage in the fabrics trade. There's no reason to suspect that G.G. was any more or less actively racist than his contemporaries - nor does it tarnish his record and his achievements or those of his fellows.

But times really have changed, people! The word in question is offensive, and has been banned from public use in Britain for decades. It's a pejorative that harks right back to the slave trade, a label that captures the whole mistaken concept that a man's worth can be judged by the colour of his skin (or his place of birth, or his religion) and that he can be bought and sold at an auctioneers block and made to pick cotton or shine shoes or whatever his owner decides. It's true that many of the recipients of this label have adopted the word for their own. Oppressed people often do that as a way of fighting back.

I feel sure that the history/realism buffs must be able to research this stuff. Maybe people can say, with some justifcation, that 'we' can't go back and alter that history and pretend that makes things 'alright'. That still doesn't justify bringing back such words back into the limelight, however briefly.

The film isn't designed to form a vehicle for a discussion on slavery, racism and reconciliation. Not removing an offensive word - however innocently used at the time depicted - would pander to those with an obsessive focus on a tiny slice of history (compared to the duration of the slave trade) but ignore the sensitivities of a few million people. Not exactly a fair trade, huh?

We gave up using the word in the Sixties. The boot polish became plain old brown again, and performers gave up rubbing it into their faces and parodying the not-too-bright (but oh so musical) ****** minstrel. We white people grew up a little when we acknowledged the insulting nature of the name and gave it up. Let's not take a step back just to satisfy the current trend for 'reality' at any cost.

I'm white, but I live this stuff since I lost my arm. I'm in disabled world since I left hospital - sharing rehab with the physically damaged including people with varying forms of brain damage, in places only inhabited by the ill and the carers, and unseen by the public-at-large. I can tell you that they are all actually sensitive human beings, just dis-enfranchised by an inability to speak or stop twitching or walk or talk or whatever. Close up you can feel only sympathy for their plight as people. But from further away you find people quite happy to use words like spastic or crip or, currently, ****** with no qualms or understanding at all.

Call the bloody dog something else! Call it Allah (or perhaps not) - or shoot the thing at the beginning and enrage the dog-loving white English audience. Or maybe there could be a quick clip thrown in whenever the word is used - the word doesn't get said, but we see two white men whearing shoe polish and striped blazers playing Duelling banjos - or better, Jesse Owens breaking the tape at the Berlin Olympics in 1936!

Let the damned word lie in an unmarked grave where it fell. The irony is that GG and his compatriots became heroes fighting against a similar, if more homicidal form of racial oppression. I wonder if they would censor their attitudes in the light of history, were they alive now? They were after all, honourable men.

B.

The.Tyke
05-08-2006, 08:19 AM
It looks like Jackson might not be involved after all .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3661599a1860,00.html

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-08-2006, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The.Tyke:
It looks like Jackson might not be involved after all .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3661599a1860,00.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well let's get Tarrantino on board then. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Would give whole new lease of life to the Crazy 88's. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FlatSpinMan
05-08-2006, 09:40 AM
That was a really thoughtful and interesting post, Brando. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
It reminded me of the change in how I perceived New Zealanders' attitudes towards Asians once I had spent time in Japan. I'm a "Pakeha", ie a "NZer of European descent", aka "white". I grew up in the South Island - lovely place, great scenery, nice friendly people for the most part, but definitely anti-Asian.

This was never much of an issue for me until I married a Japanese woman and we spent some time in NZ. Then I really noticed how many incidental, off-the-cuff derogatory comments are made about Asian people in some places in NZ. It wasn't just the yobbos, either, though they made themsleves uncomfortably apparent a couple of times, much to my great embarrassment and anger. Even members of my own family unthinkingly said things I took issue with. Years ago, I said the exact same things.

We live in Japan and I won't pretend that racism is not common here, it is a universal thing, but the two of us had never felt so uncomfortable in our time together as when we were walking around the streets of my hometown.

A change of perspective can really open your eyes. That's why I agree that the term in question is unnecessary.

Shame PJ is not involved, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

MrBlueSky1960
05-08-2006, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The.Tyke:
It looks like Jackson might not be involved after all .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3661599a1860,00.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bugger... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

whiteladder
05-08-2006, 10:16 AM
My dad was in the original film, he was doing his national service in the Royal Artillery at Lincoln. His unit supplied some of the equipment used at Scampton and is briefly in one of the shots.

His claim to fame

bazzaah2
05-08-2006, 10:23 AM
well there are cases for and against the inclusion of that word. I'd prefer to see it included myself.

The charm for me of the original film is the portrayal of a gentle, dusty, genteel England that perhaps no longer exists.

Really it should be as much a portrait of Wallis and Gibson and Britain at war as anything else and I'm not sure that Jackson is up to that type of film making, but I'm sure he'll produce a slick good looking entertaining movie.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-08-2006, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrBlueSky1960:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The.Tyke:
It looks like Jackson might not be involved after all .
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3661599a1860,00.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bugger... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've said it before and I will say it again BLOODY MEDIA

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Bo_Nidle
05-09-2006, 11:13 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Annoyed but not entirely surprised http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

If you want to know the facts then the UK press are the last people that should be believed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Oh well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif