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Chris0382
09-23-2011, 08:08 AM
I'm having some fun practicing proper takeoff and landings.

Given the altimeter is relative to sea level, what signs are there that your wheels have actually touched the runway on landing.

If I flare too early I end up a bit too high or end up in a bumpedy bump landing. I want to smooth the landing out better.

Thanks

Chris

Chris0382
09-23-2011, 08:08 AM
I'm having some fun practicing proper takeoff and landings.

Given the altimeter is relative to sea level, what signs are there that your wheels have actually touched the runway on landing.

If I flare too early I end up a bit too high or end up in a bumpedy bump landing. I want to smooth the landing out better.

Thanks

Chris

thefruitbat
09-23-2011, 02:07 PM
honestly, i look out the window.

have a look when your on the ground, make a mental note of that, and when your just about to get to that height when you're landing, flare.

Luno13
09-23-2011, 04:08 PM
Ditto Fruitbat. I just look forward and see the ground at the sides.

Here's an excellent tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atn_AQAOE-M

It's a carrier landing, but the same principles apply for landing in a runway. Dart recommends a Track IR but it isn't necessary. His videos are among the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTcQqjH6GTo

This one shows a 3-pointer in a Mustang, but doesn't have any description of what the pilot was doing. The guy also takes his sweet time flying the pattern, so skip to about 5 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZo2MU5aPLA

Another good video with commentary showing the Spitfire.

As you can see there are a few techniques, so get used to seeing the right "picture" as you land, and of course, practice!

Treetop64
09-23-2011, 06:35 PM
The trick in the flare, and landing, is not trying to actually land the airplane, but deliberately keeping it just inches off the deck, and keeping the variometer level, as speed decays. With practice you'll grease it every time.

Tully__
09-23-2011, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
The trick in the flare, and landing, is not trying to actually land the airplane, but deliberately keeping it just inches off the deck, and keeping the variometer level, as speed decays. With practice you'll grease it every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This.

The aim in landing is to fly just above the runway and let the aircraft stall onto the ground as you lose speed. Doing it right in a tailwheel aircraft will result in a 3 point landing or very close to it every time. The point of the flare is to convert a constant speed decent into a constant altitude (approx zero above ground level) level flight losing speed. If you have your approach speed right, you should be about 10mph above stall speed as you commence the flare and the flare itself will wash off most of that 10mph.

Edit: You might want to check out a post I made some time ago that goes through landing (and other flight regimes) in more detail. It's old but still valid. You might also get a laugh out of the first post in that thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...731002422#8731002422 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9181071422?r=8731002422#8731002422)

2nd edit: After some practice, it's easier to tell how close to the ground you are with cockpit on than it is with cockpit off.

Luno13
09-24-2011, 03:10 AM
Awesome post Tully. That's just what every beginner needs to fly this an most other sims.

Chris0382
09-24-2011, 06:10 AM
Carrier landings are simple because all you have to do is scrape the planes belly and catch the hook.

I can land no problem but I want to get that feather soft landing touch.

A lot of good info there and some great replies.

Thanks for the the time and help.

Chris

PhantomKira
09-24-2011, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
...If you have your approach speed right... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the key to this is setting up a good, solid approach in the first place. A bad approach (non stablized) will almost always result in a bad landing.

One of the first things they taught me about landings in flight school was to always do a half pattern before landing; no straight in approaches. Doing so helps you nail the speeds you need, because you know at what points you need what speeds, so you'll be well established as opposed to guessing at where these points are on a straight in approach. Half pattern would require entering the pattern midfield, downwind, 800 to 1000 feet above the field, going the opposite direction from landing, with the runway about 1/2 way up the strut on a Cessna 172. Finding a runway heading, and flying the reciprocal is the easiest way to do this. Flying compass headings with visual confirmation is the easiest way to do pattern work. Visual translation of that into IL-2 would result in the runway not being in the same place, but the principle definitely applies. You reduce power and put min flaps in when flying past the end of the runway that you're landing on. Turn to base leg is made when landing end of runway is at a 45 degree angle behind you. Don't forget your gear.

From the C-172, approach speeds are:

Downwind: 80 knots, No flaps/min flaps at end runway
Base: 70 knots, Mid flaps
Final: 65 knots, Mid/full flaps
Short Final: Full flaps

Stalling speed with flaps extended is 40 knots. Note the 25 knot buffer on final. You don't want to risk falling out of the sky.

As for where (when) to flare, it's a visual thing. (This means you need to have a steep enough approach to see the runway out the window, not a comforting feat in a 109 or the like.) We were taught that as you get down toward touchdown, you transition your eyes to the far end of the runway. This allows you to get the "big picture" as well as peripheral view of "putting the runway where it needs to be" in the windscreen in order to be where you want to be.

If you read the Pacific Fighters manual, I believe they have a diagram for carriers that's roughly the same thing. Not identical, but the intent is also to set up the stable approach that leads to a good landing.

I'm not sure where the speeds for IL2 aircraft are, but remember, of course, that each has a different set of speeds. You'd have to find the speeds by either looking them up, or better, experimenting to find stalling speed and go from there. Naturally, this is Oleg's interpretation of airplane X, rather than the real deal, so real world speeds, while helpful, may not be exactly what is needed in game.

Tully__
09-25-2011, 04:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhantomKira:
...One of the first things they taught me about landings in &lt;civilian&gt; flight school was to always do a half pattern before landing; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or (a rough description of) the military version:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>Approach is made along the runway in the landing direction at about 1000' (300m) and cruising speed.
<LI>Halfway down the runway make a 180degree left turn and drop throttle to achieve pattern speed.
<LI>As the touchdown zone passes your left wing tip, start flaps down, throttle back to stabilise descent and start counting 10 seconds
<LI>At 10 seconds turn 90degree left to base leg and landing gear down
<LI>As you come in line with the runway again turn 90degree left to final and bring any remaining flap down required to reach the landing setting.
<LI>Land. [/list]

Chris0382
09-25-2011, 06:20 AM
Thanks again Tully for a Layman's description.

What I have been doing is flying along the runway then going past it and doing a tRNA turn to get to the approach. I find its not very accurate.

You'll have to google tRNA and you'll see the round pattern I'm talking about.

BillSwagger
09-25-2011, 08:36 AM
I find a bit of nose up trim helps make for a decent flare on landing.

With out trim, flaring is harder.

http://www.kahunask9s.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/18-300x200.jpg

K_Freddie
09-25-2011, 10:20 AM
Aim to 'crash' at your end of the runway. Approach speed is about 30mph (~50kph) above stall speed (this depends on what flaps you've applied). As your 'crash site' dissapears below your nose , level out and hold it (you should be a few feet above the runway). Slowly reduce throttle and as the a/c sinks pull gently back on the stick - don't pull too much. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
If you cannot feel touchdown, gently bank left and right to get a wheel on the ground.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

mortoma
09-25-2011, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhantomKira:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
...If you have your approach speed right... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the key to this is setting up a good, solid approach in the first place. A bad approach (non stablized) will almost always result in a bad landing.

One of the first things they taught me about landings in flight school was to always do a half pattern before landing; no straight in approaches. Doing so helps you nail the speeds you need, because you know at what points you need what speeds, so you'll be well established as opposed to guessing at where these points are on a straight in approach. Half pattern would require entering the pattern midfield, downwind, 800 to 1000 feet above the field, going the opposite direction from landing, with the runway about 1/2 way up the strut on a Cessna 172. Finding a runway heading, and flying the reciprocal is the easiest way to do this. Flying compass headings with visual confirmation is the easiest way to do pattern work. Visual translation of that into IL-2 would result in the runway not being in the same place, but the principle definitely applies. You reduce power and put min flaps in when flying past the end of the runway that you're landing on. Turn to base leg is made when landing end of runway is at a 45 degree angle behind you. Don't forget your gear.

From the C-172, approach speeds are:

Downwind: 80 knots, No flaps/min flaps at end runway
Base: 70 knots, Mid flaps
Final: 65 knots, Mid/full flaps
Short Final: Full flaps

Stalling speed with flaps extended is 40 knots. Note the 25 knot buffer on final. You don't want to risk falling out of the sky.

As for where (when) to flare, it's a visual thing. (This means you need to have a steep enough approach to see the runway out the window, not a comforting feat in a 109 or the like.) We were taught that as you get down toward touchdown, you transition your eyes to the far end of the runway. This allows you to get the "big picture" as well as peripheral view of "putting the runway where it needs to be" in the windscreen in order to be where you want to be.

If you read the Pacific Fighters manual, I believe they have a diagram for carriers that's roughly the same thing. Not identical, but the intent is also to set up the stable approach that leads to a good landing.

I'm not sure where the speeds for IL2 aircraft are, but remember, of course, that each has a different set of speeds. You'd have to find the speeds by either looking them up, or better, experimenting to find stalling speed and go from there. Naturally, this is Oleg's interpretation of airplane X, rather than the real deal, so real world speeds, while helpful, may not be exactly what is needed in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That type of landing may be the most common but a straight in landing is good to know how to do too. And you'll pretty much have to in order to get certified to fly instruments. Even my first long distance solo had a straight in landing and I had no choice! And not only that, the controller ( class D airport ) had me maintain 100 knots all the way down to near the threshold because I had a Citation jet behind me. And I had already informed him I was student pilot but he didn't care.

It was actually a good experience and I handled it well. When it was time to slow down I simply made sure I was descended a little below a normal approach ( showed low on the VASI lights ) and then I just leveled out and it slowed down really quick! I dropped the rest of my flaps and had to really push down on the yoke hard to keep it from balooning right when I let the flaps the rest of the way down. Then the final flare and landing was as good as any I made. I did have to do some really quick last minute trimming for pitch though.

The only caveat was that I was supposed to do three touch and goes for the legal requirements for that long solo flight. But I was so excited and freaked out by fast approach I had to do that I forgot to do two more landings and takeoffs. But my instructor never found out and went on to get my license anyway.

But you need to learn all types of landings in order to be a good pilot, all I'm saying......

WTE_Galway
09-25-2011, 04:34 PM
Finding the correct Approach Speed (also known as Vref).


As a good general rule of thumb, aircraft from the period this sim is set in generally had an approach speed 30% above stall speed.

To work out the approach speed of a plane, find out the stall speed in level flight and then multiply by 1.3.

M2morris
09-25-2011, 07:56 PM
Or you can do what I did when I taught myself how to land. In FMB, put yourself about 3000 feet above a runway, cut the engine ,land without looking at the instruments. Do this for a couple of hours, eventually you won't crash anymore. Besides, sometimes you will come in with your instruments shot out.

PhantomKira
09-25-2011, 10:18 PM
mortoma, I can see where you're going with that. I think they were talking mostly VFR, as IFR is a whole different ballgame and they didn't want to worry us with such things just yet.

I have an aversion to flaps, myself. It comes from my home field having 5000+ feet, 150 feet wide and bred more concern with changing pitchs and having to fiddle with the trim (one more thing in an already busy segment of flight), and also serious distrust of those electrically operated flaps, than distance used. I always made sure to do my flap adjustments on a straight section, so that if one lowered and the other didn't, I'd not be in a turn as well to further complicate matters. I also had a rather unfortunate incident with a runway end light early in my training when my instructor decided to show me a REALLY short field landing, trying to get of at the first taxiway, and ended up a bit too short. Runway end light through the horizontal stabilizer. No fun!

Davinci..
09-26-2011, 02:10 AM
How to land an aircraft.. Ill keep this as simple as possible, as there have already been some key/important points brought up.

First approach: a proper/good approach makes all the difference in the world, whether you are landing straight in, or landing from the pattern/circuit, a solid approach will set you up and greatly reduce the difficulty of your landing(by setting up as much of the workload as possible ahead of time reducing the number of variables you have to handle, right before touchdown).. If you aren't established on a solid/consistent approach slope/glide path, by the time you reach 300ft, you are going to have a hell of a time being in position to do nothing but flare at touchdown(you'll likely still be making corrections).

Im gonna go with describing a patterned landing, because its easiest as it gives you more time to plan you approach and gives you specific marks to hit to set everything up set by step. Once you've got that down, you'll have a better idea of where you need to be on a straight in approach without the cues of a circuit landing.

Enter the pattern at 1000 ft and reduce speed to an appropriate rate. As your wing passes the end of the runway, reduce power to whatever level will set you up to match your approach speed.. And drop your combat flaps. This will slow your aircraft and stabilize it to approach speed, ideally just in time for you to turn onto base. Do not descend during the slowdown, maintain your altitude. Turn base as the runway is at 45 out your back window, and drop your takeoff flaps. Maintain your approach speed.

From here on out, you only need to focus on and control 2 variables for your decent. You'll use your pitch ONLY to control your aircraft speed, and you will control your rate of decent ONLY by power. This is by far the easiest/most effective way to control your approaches, and will greatly reduce fumbling around constantly making adjustments to everything on the way down.
So as you hit your approach speed, if you are to slow(airspeed), point the nose down, going to fast pull up. You want to nail your speed. Set and hold your speed with your pitch only. Now to control the rate of decent, you'll adjust your power. If you find your coming in to low/shallow, add more power. If you are too high back the power off. Resist the temptation to try and adjust your approach slop with pitch, it should be bang on your airspeed and nothing else.. That's all it does.

Turn final, drop your landing flaps and gear. Continue the approach speed and decent procedure as required.
There you are setup on a nice steady decent path, at a steady speed and good to go, follow that in until you are over the threshold(edge of the runway). At which point, you can pull back on the power entirely(do this smoothly and deliberately) Simply chopping the power will cause your nose to drop, which will require correction at worst possible time, and set you up for a quick series of oscillations, as you try and correct.

Flare: As someone else has already mentioned, as you come in for the flare, fix your eyes on the horizon, or end of the runway, and do not look at the runway directly in front of the aircraft! Keep your eyes fixed directly ahead at the horizon, i do not know why this works so well, but it does! And pull back(smoothly) as required and hold that nose up, and hold till you settle on the runway.

This is the best way i can describe how to land.
examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=feedu#t=4m30s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aIkfapD-n4&feature=feedu#t=4m30s) straight in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=feedu#t=1m52s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scxDfxbKHG0&feature=feedu#t=1m52s) out of the circuit(apologize for the music)
Smooth deliberate approaches, all the way in instead of flailing about, would will certainly lead to botching the actual touchdown.

You'll have to come up with an appropriate approach speed, as every aircraft is different, I would however not recommend using that Vref formula provided here, as that generally pertains to the low end/minimum approach speed when coming over the threshold. Great for airlines hitting their marks, terrible for GA or novice pilots trying to learn to land. If I ever got caught doing an approach at 43knots in a cessna, I would probably never be allowed to rent a plane again. Similarly, a fw-190 with a stall speed of 150kph, gives you an approach speed of only 195kph, which is exactly where you want to be right as you come over the field, but is way to slow to fly an entire approach at, and may be difficult to handle.

Hope this helps.

Tully__
09-26-2011, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Davinci..:
You'll have to come up with an appropriate approach speed, as every aircraft is different, I would however not recommend using that Vref formula provided here, as that generally pertains to the low end/minimum approach speed when coming over the threshold. Great for airlines hitting their marks, terrible for GA or novice pilots trying to learn to land. If I ever got caught doing an approach at 43knots in a cessna, I would probably never be allowed to rent a plane again. Similarly, a fw-190 with a stall speed of 150kph, gives you an approach speed of only 195kph, which is exactly where you want to be right as you come over the field, but is way to slow to fly an entire approach at, and may be difficult to handle.

Hope this helps. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about RL, but in this sim 195km/h is too fast on approach for most of the fighters. 180km/h is closer to the mark right through short final and some pilots are recommending as low as 170km/h. I know as a beginner I wouldn't approach at less than 200km/h but once I worked out the proper way to land it was immediately clear that is at least 20km/h too fast.

I suppose that in real life this would leave you open to some really scary moments if your headwind suddenly sheared to a tailwind. Those transferring to CoD may have to rethink their approach speeds once the full weather engine is running as intended.