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Lt.Davis
03-07-2005, 01:58 AM
Just wondering is the SMG MP40 bullet compatible to SMG Thomson (tommy gun)?

And what is the canon the german infantry using in movie saving pivate ryan?

TheVoodooPriest
03-07-2005, 02:59 AM
No. they're not compatible.
The MP-40 uses the caliber 9mm Para, the Tommygun .45 ACP.

ImpStarDuece
03-07-2005, 04:35 AM
The cannon is a 2 cm flak gun

civildog
03-07-2005, 01:29 PM
The "cannon" at the end of the movie was a 2cm FlakVierling.

Taylortony
03-07-2005, 02:42 PM
Little known fact from my days in the RAF.. the
7.62mm Self Loading Rifle standard NATO round could be fired from the AK47, but the Russian AK47 round couldn't be fired from the NATO SLR...

Taylortony
03-07-2005, 02:52 PM
Oh and I nearly forgot the 2cm Flak gun..... wanna buy one? would look nice on the lawn for those noisy neighbour disputes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Infact if ya want the Half track to tow it home, you can buy one of those too, they were the ones that they used in the film http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif see the link they are both available http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk

http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/Flak38/Flak38-for-sale1web.jpg

http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/vehiclehire/Sdkfz251-largeweb1.gif

civildog
03-07-2005, 08:44 PM
Yeah, as for the NATO vs. Sov round: I can shoot a 9mm through my .40 Glock ONCE, and vice versa ONCE...then I'd need a new barrel...proly the same for the NATO v. AK rounds. The bullets are pretty close, but not close enough.

Also the AK 's shell is fatter and shorter. Oh, the though of that getting rammed into the breach of standard .308 gives me the shudders.

And yes, I'd love a 2cm Flak gun...just the thing for duck hunting, or keeping raccoons out of the koi pond!

Charlie901
03-07-2005, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
Just wondering is the SMG MP40 bullet compatible to SMG Thomson (tommy gun)?

And what is the canon the german infantry using in movie saving pivate ryan? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Sounds like good questions you should submit to the "Mail Call" show. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

han freak solo
03-07-2005, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheVoodooPriest:
No. they're not compatible.
The MP-40 uses the caliber 9mm Para, the Tommygun .45 ACP. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct. If the bore of the 9mm is exactly 9mm and the bore of the .45" is exactly .45", the .45" is 11.43mm. I say it like this because without me looking up the actual dimensions on these two, many calibers do not measure exactly as labeled. For instance a .357 magnum is the same bore as a .38 special.

It's more than the bore size anyway, the cartridge shape and length are usually different from one cartridge type to another even if they are the "same bore" like .30 caliber. Such as the 7.62x39 and the 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester which is 7.62x54?) stated earlier, both .30 caliber.

If I remember correctly, the M3A1 "grease gun" that replaced the M1A1 Thompson (both firing .45 ACP), could be fitted with a different barrel that would accept the 9mm para. Probably a different magazine, too.

han freak solo
03-07-2005, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
Just wondering is the SMG MP40 bullet compatible to SMG Thomson (tommy gun)?

And what is the canon the german infantry using in movie saving pivate ryan? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean comparable? See http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm. This isn't an end to all the possiblilities, but if you consider comparing what on this web page between the 9mm Para FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) and the .45 FMJ. They are close enough in performance to kill, easily.

Shown here, the 9mm Para FMJ has a muzzle velocity of 381 meters/second, and a muzzle energy of 543 joules. The sample .45 FMJ is 258 m/s and 494 j. The energy can be considered "stopping power".

FMJ ammo is used by military services for more consistant feeding of ammo since the bullet lead is surrounded by a harder alloy that resists deforming as is it chambered. FMJ is not the best for maximum stopping power, though.

I still laugh at the WWI sim I saw recently that is called "Full Canvas Jacket". I guess it is taken from Stanley Kubrik's film "Full Metal Jacket". It's not a jacket that someone wears. It's a jacket of metal around the bullet lead.

han freak solo
03-07-2005, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>(.308 Winchester which is 7.62x54?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops. 7.62x51. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Lewicide
03-08-2005, 12:49 AM
The 7.62x51mm Nato is a .308 inch bore and the 7.62x54mm and the AK round the 7.62x39mm(M-43) are .310 inch bores. I have reloaded and used all of these cartridges and you most emphatically will not chamber a 7.62x51 NATO an an 7.62x39 AK, the bolt will not close or rotate in its carrier to lock. While the NATO round has a smaller bore diameter the catridge length, shoulders and base are too large to chamber in the 7.62x39.You also will not accomodate this round in the magazine, it's too long. In the case of the 7.62x54R you might force a 7.62 NATO in there, but the 7.62x54R is a rimmed cartidge while the NATO round is rimless, thus no extraction even if headspace problems didn't wreck everything on firing (head separation).

Dont try any of this, operating pressure of these cartridges are in the 45000 to 55000 cup range and mistakes are spectacular and potentially lethal.

Cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

PBNA-Boosher
03-08-2005, 05:02 AM
I say check out the "Grease Gun." Later versions of the grease gun allowed the user to switch barrels by simply unscrewing them. One barrel allowed them to use the standard .45 cal ACP ammo, while the other barrel was configured for standard German 9mm ammunition. Very clever, isn't it?

civildog
03-08-2005, 02:09 PM
Clever, yes, but not very practical in application. It also requires changing the recoil springs and could still jam when firing the 9mm since the lighter round wouldn't always blowback the bolt all the way even with a lighter spring.

Lots of manufacturers try this trick. I used to have a Springfield 1911 with a .22 submunition kit to use the cheaper ammo for plinking, but it always seemed to me to be a goofy mod and I rarely used it.

The only version of this I've ever seen that seemed to work wwas the Jericho 941 (sometimes called the "Baby Eagle" by collectors) by Israeli Arms. It came with two complete barrels and recoil rods/springs. It fired 9mm, and the trendy new round that never made it big: the .41AE. The magazines carried both calibers fine and could be used for either.

The .41AE was overshadowed and lost market share to the .40SW and 10mm and the Jericho never really shot the .41 as well as the 9mm - typical for that kind of gun design. Now the company just makes the gun in single calibers which ought to tell you something.

I could never figure out why you would want a gun that shot two calibers, but neither as well as a purpose built weapon. Just get two guns that each shoot what they are made for. Guns are the last thing you should want to be all gimmicky and fiddly.

han freak solo
03-09-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I could never figure out why you would want a gun that shot two calibers, but neither as well as a purpose built weapon. Just get two guns that each shoot what they are made for. Guns are the last thing you should want to be all gimmicky and fiddly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you on that one Civil Dog. I actually bought a .357 Magnum years ago for the versatility of also using .38 Special. I tried the .38s but it didn't satisfy me enough to keep using. Partly, because .357 ammo isn't much more $$, and MOSTLY because the revolver in question is sighted for the faster .357 ammo.

I know this isn't the same as your Springfield scenario but it just shows "why bother, just get one gun per caliber". I could even make the same argument about a .22 lever rifle I have that can digest .22 short, .22 long, and .22 long rifle.

But, we both know why the Grease Gun was given this flexibilty. So allies could use German ammo when out of .45 ACP. Did they actually do it? I don't know.

civildog
03-09-2005, 07:16 PM
I hear you on that.

Following the basic rule of common sense I doubt that if any GI worried about swapping ammo instead of just grabbing a "souveneir" MP40 and bag of mags. Let alone bother with carrying the extra parts to make the Greasegun shoot 9mm. I sure wouldn't bother. If I was running low on ammo (and I'd proly be carrying more AMMO than FOOD!!) I'd be looking around for some mags for my gun (that's a lot quicker than changing barrels and springs) or grabbing up a rifle or gun from a body somewhere. Or looking for a way out so I could get more ammo.

And if my Lt. was dumb enough to order me to change barrels on the off chance there's be more 9mm lying around than .45 at whatever German position was we were going to attack, I'd be looking for way to get rid of him!

Then I'd go into battle with .45 instead of ".45 on stun".

civildog
03-09-2005, 07:23 PM
BTW: the .22 Short is useful for shooting the raccoons that get into the koi pond...it rarely kills them but leaves a more lasting impression than a BB gun. And since it sounds no louder than a capgun you can get away with it in the city.

Not that I would admit to that sort of thing. Just in theory. "cough"

han freak solo
03-10-2005, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
BTW: the .22 Short is useful for shooting the raccoons that get into the koi pond...it rarely kills them but leaves a more lasting impression than a BB gun. And since it sounds no louder than a capgun you can get away with it in the city.

Not that I would admit to that sort of thing. Just in theory. "cough" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've "seen" this effect with .22 shorts on possums. They pass really slowly after being hit. Or, so I've heard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yimmy
03-10-2005, 08:07 AM
The bullet the Soviet 7.62x39mm fiers is not .310, but .311 - and is interchangeable with the bullets fierd by the .303 British and I also believe the 7.7mm Jap.

Lt.Davis
03-10-2005, 10:08 PM
Ok, thanks for the info guys! actually i was thinking during ww2 time, are they using enemy weapons or their equipment.

civildog
03-10-2005, 10:37 PM
OK, then. Think about it: it's a great idea in theory, but the Law of Conservation in combat is KISS...Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I doubt very seriously that the quick change Greasegun was ever really used that way by GI's in the field. If you found 9mm lying around in quantity you'd probably also find plenty of Schmeissers to use next to it or on the bodies of the Germans who were using it. So you'd naturally just pick up an MP40 and some mags TO ADD to your firepower (if you wanted something extra) instead of changing the barrel and all in your Greasegun. Makes good common sense, yes?

Now there is plenty of evidence in photos and personal accounts of that happening in all wars. Germans fighting in Russia often helped themselves to PPSh submachineguns because there was always plenty of ammo for those around, they were easier to maintain in the Eastern Front winter, and spare parts were everywhere there were dead Russian troopers. It also was a kickbutt gun, better in many ways than the MP40 for combat:lighter, higher rate of fire yet didn't jam as often from heat (only one firing option, too: full-auto), and could use either high-capacity drums or box mags.

Troops having to depend on reliable weapons to save thier lives are not likely to bother with something as fiddly as barrel-swapping to use one kind of ammo one day, then another the next. If the ammo truck was late, then they would more reasonably improvise with weapons off the dead - enemy or otherwise.

Fehler
03-10-2005, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CivilDog:
I could never figure out why you would want a gun that shot two calibers...QUOTE]

Simple.. Cost.

I have a Glock 32. (.357 Sig). My department refuses to buy .357 Sig ammo for qualification, but will supply as much .40 cal as you want to shoot. Solution, I maintain 2 barrels. Since the .40 cal and the .357 Sig uses the same length cartrige (The .357 neck is shrunk down to accept the .357 bullet) both rounds fit in the same magazines.

Thus, I can go shoot as much departmental .40 cal as I want, but I buy my own .357 Sig ammo to carry on the street.

Someone gave me a 9mm barrel as well, but I have never wasted my time firing a round out of it. hehe