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Esel1964
04-07-2009, 01:40 AM
This past weekend,I had the privilege to fly on Colling's Foundation B-17 "Ole 909" on Friday(which I'll post pics and video of when they're ready),then on Saturday I rode in Cavanaugh's Flight Museum's Stearman.

The Stearman is what I'd like to talk about right now.The pilot was a commercial pilot with 7000 hr,and it's his finesse and light touch on the controls I want to compare with my sim experiences.
I've been flying IL-2 since the day ' Forgotten Battles' was released,I went to Best Buy and waited for them to put them on the shelves,literally-so,I'm no newb,except for online flying-which I hope to get in on soon with the help of Choctaw111.
I've been flying MSFS9 for almost 4 yr.,and WoV for about 3 yr.

I know,of course that none of these has a Stearman,so I have no direct comparison.
But during my Stearman ride,I was watching the guages and controls the pilot was putting into the aircraft.

What blew me away,was how small the control inputs the pilot was making were.I never saw the ailerons move more than maybe 3/8",and even in a 30 degree bank,he kept the slip ball centered,and this was on a day when we were having wind gusts of up to 30 mph.

When we landed,I asked his secret for keeping the ball centered was,and he said "Oh,just hours in the seat".
True we weren't dogfighting,as when I fly IL-2 my slip ball is constantly on the move.

I guess seat time is the secret to truly finessed flying vs. what I'm sure,many of us experience.
This guy was good,unbelievably smooth.So practice,practice,practice.It seems to be the key between finessing a plane vs. throwing it around.

Esel1964
04-07-2009, 01:40 AM
This past weekend,I had the privilege to fly on Colling's Foundation B-17 "Ole 909" on Friday(which I'll post pics and video of when they're ready),then on Saturday I rode in Cavanaugh's Flight Museum's Stearman.

The Stearman is what I'd like to talk about right now.The pilot was a commercial pilot with 7000 hr,and it's his finesse and light touch on the controls I want to compare with my sim experiences.
I've been flying IL-2 since the day ' Forgotten Battles' was released,I went to Best Buy and waited for them to put them on the shelves,literally-so,I'm no newb,except for online flying-which I hope to get in on soon with the help of Choctaw111.
I've been flying MSFS9 for almost 4 yr.,and WoV for about 3 yr.

I know,of course that none of these has a Stearman,so I have no direct comparison.
But during my Stearman ride,I was watching the guages and controls the pilot was putting into the aircraft.

What blew me away,was how small the control inputs the pilot was making were.I never saw the ailerons move more than maybe 3/8",and even in a 30 degree bank,he kept the slip ball centered,and this was on a day when we were having wind gusts of up to 30 mph.

When we landed,I asked his secret for keeping the ball centered was,and he said "Oh,just hours in the seat".
True we weren't dogfighting,as when I fly IL-2 my slip ball is constantly on the move.

I guess seat time is the secret to truly finessed flying vs. what I'm sure,many of us experience.
This guy was good,unbelievably smooth.So practice,practice,practice.It seems to be the key between finessing a plane vs. throwing it around.

jamesblonde1979
04-07-2009, 01:45 AM
Well, yeah, some people actually do have a better natural grasp of flying but there is no substitute for experience.

DKoor
04-07-2009, 01:49 AM
You will notice how many of the really experienced players of this game really pay attention to the smoothness of the maneuvers they do in combat.
When you engage them at first you will think how they fly too "schoolish" (for the lack of better explanation), but truth to be told that is what gives them an edge in combat. They always seem to have tiny bit of extra e.
In combination with lethal gunnery they can make many of your online sessions somewhat frustratinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
On the other hand if you don't fly versus these people I guess you never really can advance in your "flying" techniques.

X32Wright
04-07-2009, 02:48 AM
How true!!! but I found that actual pilots are more conservative in flying this game than virtual pilots. But they do tend to have very good energy management tactics.

Romanator21
04-07-2009, 02:57 AM
Simulator flying is definitely very different that flying in the real world. For one, you can feel everything that is going on, and unless you are in IFR conditions (high alt, clouds, etc) , it is very simple and intuitive to orient yourself in three-dimensional space. "Trimming" is infinitely easier because you get a force response. Simply, if your arm is getting tired keeping the assigned altitude, you are not trimming enough.

Another thing that is vastly different are the control inputs as you also have mentioned. I have seen a helmet camera view of 2 P-47s in formation, and the pilots are wiggling the stick all over, with little apparent motion of the planes or control surfaces. Likewise, when I land a 172, (really not like anything in Il-2, I know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) my attention is on the runway, and airspeed. I am adjusting power a lot, but the yoke and pedals are wiggling all over the place, making tiny corrections to my glide path. To the passengers, the plane seems to just go in a straight line, and the control surface movement is also barely noticeable. Basically, one must deflect the stick much farther to get an output, whereas in any simulator, not just il-2, a quick tap on the stick sends your plane tumbling.

It's as if the stick is 2 feet shorter, and there is no force feedback. Oh, wait, it is like that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

kingtiger2008
04-07-2009, 03:53 AM
So Romanator21 you're a real pilot? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif May i have a question? How do you compare the stall characteristic in IL-2 with real rife? Is it easier to feel the stall when it about to happen?

rnzoli
04-07-2009, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Esel1964:
True we weren't dogfighting, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, and you compare apples vs. organges http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Norbert Hannig writes about a story when they were trying to re-train former bomber pilots to the Focke-Wulf 190 Antons, and they were unable to change! He had to send them away. The problem was that the guys flew so much time in formation, in straight lines, that their habits really prohibited them from throwing their new fighters into agresssive manouvers, so it was very easy to get on their tails.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">as when I fly IL-2 my slip ball is constantly on the move. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It is quite hard to recognize slip from visual clues only. Just like acceleration and deceleration.

So nowadays I am dreaming about a sim pit chair, which would give me a clue about the acceleration forces by its position (e.g., putting me lower under G load, or slightly away from the screen with acceleration). In the same fashion, slip could turn the seat slightly. This doesn't come close to the real feelings in the inner ear, but it would give your some substitute physical signals, which we all miss today (even those with FFB sticks).

Romanator21
04-07-2009, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So Romanator21 you're a real pilot? Blink May i have a question? How do you compare the stall characteristic in IL-2 with real rife? Is it easier to feel the stall when it about to happen? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I'm only a Private Pilot however, so you won't see me in the cockpit of the 737 on your next flight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

For what it's worth I can probably say that the stalls in this game are pretty realistic. Flying a Cessna is nothing like being in a P-39 of course. It is meant to be very easy fly, and is a great "beginners" plane. It is designed to recover on its own from a stall or spin. It also very easy to sense the onset of a stall. You will feel the controls become more "mushy", the stall horn (a vacuum device in the wing) will be blaring, and finally you will feel a buffet, or a short bounce. When I first played the game, I had a lot of issues with control sensitivity, and I definitely couldn't "feel" the oncoming stall, and every stall I made, coordinated or not, would result in a snap spin, and I thought it was an issue with the game engine. But once I got through this block, I have come to appreciate the stall dynamics of the game. By "dancing" on the rudder pedals (x and y keys) I am able to keep the plane controllable at very low speeds, and spins are very avoidable, even when pulling hard turns, or at low level. I've been able to sustain control over a hurricane in level flight at 60 kts indicated, just at stall speed, and a ki-43 can allow me to enter and leave a spin at will, giving an edge in pure turn fights. And yes, it is possible to recover the P-39 from it's corkscrew of death (but as in reality, it is very difficult, and you can only hope to sign your will at low altitude).

So here are a few tips to helping you with stalls and spins in the game. I like to set the control sensitivity values all to 100% which gives my control inputs more authority. Practice a few stalls in the QMB. When you're at full power, and moving very slowly, torque, gyroscopic forces and propwash will cause the plane to roll to one direction. Avoid the natural tendency to correct with ailerons, as this will push you over into a spin. Instead control with rudders (the rule of thumb is "Step on the higher wing") You will get slower and slower, and it will be harder to do this, but it is very important that you keep the wings level. At some point, you will hear a loud whooshing sound which warns you about the onset of the stall. If you're doing everything right so far, the nose then will drop straight down. You don't necessarily have to push the nose down (but it varies) Add power if it's not in already, and raise flaps only once you have a positive rate of climb. If however, you do enter the dreaded spin, neutralize your controls. If you try to use them you might enter a flat spin which is sometimes unrecoverable. Cut the power, and apply rudder opposite the direction of the rotation. The P-39 requires a bit more though. In addition to cutting power, drop your flaps and gear. Push the nose forward, and ailerons with the direction of the turn, with rudder opposite. Once the spin is "broken" you are not done. You will see big bad Earth, and you will get scared and pull up, but don't, or you will enter a secondary stall. (nothing is more frustrating to the pilot who just successfully broke his first spin) Once you feel you have adequate experience, try practicing stalls while turning and climbing, etc.

So, to answer the question, in my mind, the stall characteristics of the game are modeled well enough. Hope this helps. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

slipBall
04-07-2009, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Esel1964:
This past weekend,I had the privilege to fly on Colling's Foundation B-17 "Ole 909" on Friday(which I'll post pics and video of when they're ready),then on Saturday I rode in Cavanaugh's Flight Museum's Stearman.

The Stearman is what I'd like to talk about right now.The pilot was a commercial pilot with 7000 hr,and it's his finesse and light touch on the controls I want to compare with my sim experiences.
I've been flying IL-2 since the day ' Forgotten Battles' was released,I went to Best Buy and waited for them to put them on the shelves,literally-so,I'm no newb,except for online flying-which I hope to get in on soon with the help of Choctaw111.
I've been flying MSFS9 for almost 4 yr.,and WoV for about 3 yr.

I know,of course that none of these has a Stearman,so I have no direct comparison.
But during my Stearman ride,I was watching the guages and controls the pilot was putting into the aircraft.

What blew me away,was how small the control inputs the pilot was making were.I never saw the ailerons move more than maybe 3/8",and even in a 30 degree bank,he kept the slip ball centered,and this was on a day when we were having wind gusts of up to 30 mph.

When we landed,I asked his secret for keeping the ball centered was,and he said "Oh,just hours in the seat".
True we weren't dogfighting,as when I fly IL-2 my slip ball is constantly on the move.

I guess seat time is the secret to truly finessed flying vs. what I'm sure,many of us experience.
This guy was good,unbelievably smooth.So practice,practice,practice.It seems to be the key between finessing a plane vs. throwing it around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Wow, lucky you. Just a couple days before your thread I was watching Jay Leno go through that very same aircraft
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/...yer.shtml?vid=745181 (http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=745181)
I quess your pilot knows his sh/t!...I'm happy that you got to enjoy that aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

M_Gunz
04-07-2009, 04:24 PM
Romanator, even a twisty stick would enhance your game greatly by allowing proportionate rudder control.
Keys are 100% only for however long you keep them down.

On the topic: we are missing so much of the feel it's not funny and that makes it harder to fly than IRL
especially the fine maneuvers. Those with FFB sticks get more than those who don't but in game you can't
feel slip, sink or rise that your seat gives you IRL. Trim is another place where this and every sim that
has it just doesn't match the reality, it's MUCH easier to trim properly IRL than in game.

ElAurens
04-07-2009, 05:03 PM
Our BlitzPig real life Stearman owner and pilot is also very good at E retention, and is very smooth, and deadly in the virtual sky.

He finds our stall modeling nothing like real however. To him it feels "canned". And unlike real flying there are no clues as to it's onset. One second you are flying along in a turn, the next you enter the patented Oleg slip-on-a-banana-peel stall and you are tumbling almost helplessly in the games pre-programmed stall routine.

mortoma
04-07-2009, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Simulator flying is definitely very different that flying in the real world. For one, you can feel everything that is going on, and unless you are in IFR conditions (high alt, clouds, etc) , it is very simple and intuitive to orient yourself in three-dimensional space. "Trimming" is infinitely easier because you get a force response. Simply, if your arm is getting tired keeping the assigned altitude, you are not trimming enough.

Another thing that is vastly different are the control inputs as you also have mentioned. I have seen a helmet camera view of 2 P-47s in formation, and the pilots are wiggling the stick all over, with little apparent motion of the planes or control surfaces. Likewise, when I land a 172, (really not like anything in Il-2, I know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) my attention is on the runway, and airspeed. I am adjusting power a lot, but the yoke and pedals are wiggling all over the place, making tiny corrections to my glide path. To the passengers, the plane seems to just go in a straight line, and the control surface movement is also barely noticeable. Basically, one must deflect the stick much farther to get an output, whereas in any simulator, not just il-2, a quick tap on the stick sends your plane tumbling.

It's as if the stick is 2 feet shorter, and there is no force feedback. Oh, wait, it is like that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh I don't know, trimming a real plane seems pretty similar to a simulated one to me. If I don't trim in a sim, I get an annoying pressure from the stick due to the return spring in it. Similar to the pressure from a real yoke or stick, just not as strong. But in a real aircraft, especially in the warmer months, you have to trim a lot more often at lower altitudes. More than 5 or 6 thousand ASL it's not too bad though. I spent my flying years in Indiana, which is kind of bumpy in the warm months and you are constantly going in and out of thermals from the ground. Makes you have to trim like crazy.

Romanator21
04-07-2009, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He finds our stall modeling nothing like real however. To him it feels "canned". And unlike real flying there are no clues as to it's onset. One second you are flying along in a turn, the next you enter the patented Oleg slip-on-a-banana-peel stall and you are tumbling almost helplessly in the games pre-programmed stall routine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, the stall routine is almost certainly the same each time, which is somewhat disappointing. And there is definitely not the same kind of warning that we get in a real plane. But, at least there's the whooshing sound prior to stalling, and recovery is basically the same.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh I don't know, trimming a real plane seems pretty similar to a simulated one to me. If I don't trim in a sim, I get an annoying pressure from the stick due to the return spring in it. Similar to the pressure from a real yoke or stick, just not as strong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What stick are you using? I don't really have a lot of pressure on mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Romanator, even a twisty stick would enhance your game greatly by allowing proportionate rudder control.
Keys are 100% only for however long you keep them down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the advise Gunz. I've heard of these, but I feel like I'll just end up twisting the entire assembly on my desk and loosing control. But yeah those keys are a pain sometimes, especially in the thick of a dogfight. Pedals, someday... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

WTE_Galway
04-07-2009, 06:58 PM
you actually don't need the ball as much in real life ... the wind rush gets louder as you go into slip and also you can feel the turn is uncoordinated

M_Gunz
04-07-2009, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
One second you are flying along in a turn, the next you enter the patented Oleg slip-on-a-banana-peel stall and you are tumbling almost helplessly in the games pre-programmed stall routine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last I saw of that was 3.4. Back then you couldn't stall without a spin, not even gently.
It wasn't so much canned as reaching a cusp in the numbers which 4.x did change.
But then I had a feel and could ride the edge in EAW which does have a canned spin. IL2 is very different.

I have video of a British competition of 4 pilots trying for 9 hours Spitfire training.
The first eliminations were in Gypsy Moth training and the last after 1 hour in Spitfire.
What to say, the Spitfire was less forgiving than the Moth which was a good step from the GA the boys were used to.
How really different is the Moth from a Stearman from a Warbird? Moth to Warbird is different.

M_Gunz
04-07-2009, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">trimming a real plane seems pretty similar to a simulated one to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I remember IRL holding the controls and trimming until they didn't push on my hand.
Very easy to get just right.

Trimming in IL2 is not like that for me.
I tap a key or move a slider and then move the control to try and keep the nose the same.
If I hold the key too long or move the slider too far then I end up chasing the trim with the stick.

M_Gunz
04-07-2009, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Romanator, even a twisty stick would enhance your game greatly by allowing proportionate rudder control.
Keys are 100% only for however long you keep them down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for the advise Gunz. I've heard of these, but I feel like I'll just end up twisting the entire assembly on my desk and loosing control. But yeah those keys are a pain sometimes, especially in the thick of a dogfight. Pedals, someday... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pedals are better for sure.
The twisty is light enough you won't move the base at least on the 3 I've had.
The thing to do is try them out for feel at the store.
The pain-in-the-rear is that twisting can throw off your X-Y a little to a lot, but it beats keys for rudder to bits.

X-52 has a lock feature for those with pedals and you can use the twist if you don't have them.
It has very light springs and Hall sensors (magnetic) instead of pots on the stick axes.
If you have a light touch then they will last, otherwise it's CH or something professional or homebuilt like Fehlers'
made out of a car universal joint and welded frame, seat and pedals as well.

Saitek does have a cheaper twisty, the AV8R, that some people do really like.
My first twisty was a Micro$oft 3D Pro with optical encoding, not Hall or pot sensors.
The thing was accurate and trouble free until PC's changed and I upgraded, then it was useless.
My second was a Logi@rap Wingman 3D and never again, it didn't last 2 years of light use.
I'd have had to ham-hand terribly to have moved the base on any of them though on occasion in the heat of 'battle'
I've side-sticked a bit too quick, a bunch too far. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
04-07-2009, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
You will notice how many of the really experienced players of this game really pay attention to the smoothness of the maneuvers they do in combat.
When you engage them at first you will think how they fly too "schoolish" (for the lack of better explanation), but truth to be told that is what gives them an edge in combat. They always seem to have tiny bit of extra e.
In combination with lethal gunnery they can make many of your online sessions somewhat frustratinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
On the other hand if you don't fly versus these people I guess you never really can advance in your "flying" techniques. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So very true. I've really focused on flying smoothly recently...I keep reducing the sensitivity of the controls because I want to make precise movements rather than extremely rapid ones.

The rapid ones are best left for emergency situations and showing off http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Esel1964
04-07-2009, 09:15 PM
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/DMFesel/13190014.jpg

I got my pics back today,this is me in the Stearman,with my pilot Stuart Milsan getting ready.

I'll do a more detailed post of the B-17 and Stearman flights once I have my B-17 video put to disc this Saturday,by the friend that loaned me the vid cam.

kingtiger2008
04-07-2009, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
Yes, I'm only a Private Pilot however, so you won't see me in the cockpit of the 737 on your next flight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thank you very much, you real pilot guys really is the bridge between our virtual pilots and reality. So I have been playing this game for one year and still haven't use the rudder to it's full potential yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif .

Outlaw---
04-08-2009, 05:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
So nowadays I am dreaming about a sim pit chair, which would give me a clue about the acceleration forces by its position (e.g., putting me lower under G load, or slightly away from the screen with acceleration). In the same fashion, slip could turn the seat slightly. This doesn't come close to the real feelings in the inner ear, but it would give your some substitute physical signals, which we all miss today (even those with FFB sticks). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I built a prototype 4 piezo electric buzzer setup that would buzz depending on the direction of slip and how many g you were pulling. It was, at the very best, a VERY early pre-alpha type setup as I simply placed the buzzers under my thighs but it did work---offline. Since the devicelink interface does not provide much information in online mode I abandoned it. My eventual plan was to have servos mounted in my simpit that would press on my thighs from the sides.

--Outlaw.

Viper2005_
04-08-2009, 07:36 AM
I have a PPL, though I don't fly as much as I'd like to these days.

I have flown a Stearman amongst other things, so I thought I'd say a few things.

Obviously, with a tailwheel and lots of inertia, the ground handling is very different from a Cessna 150. The cockpit is different; you've got a stick instead of a yoke, and the throttle is on the left. The rudder pedals seem rather far apart.

However, like the Cessna 150 it seems happy enough to do everything at 70.

As you would expect from a trainer, it gives plenty of stall warning:

You're slowing down.

It's less windy than it was.

The stick is creeping back and the nose is creeping up.

The aeroplane is starting to buffet.

And buffet.

And buffet.

You can actually see the wings shaking.

<span class="ev_code_red">And we've stalled.</span>

Because there wasn't any sideslip, the nose drops pretty well straight down.

In the Stearman, you don't particularly need to watch the ball, because if you get the aeroplane going sideways then the wind goes around the windscreen and you get cold!

The Cessna 150 has a similarly obvious stall warning. You've got the horn, which starts about 3 weeks before things start to go wrong.

The nose is so far up in the air that you can't see where you're going.

There isn't a lot of wind noise anymore.

There is some fairly gentle buffet.

If your feet aren't asleep then it's pretty easy to keep the ball in the middle.

There is some gentle buffet.

The ailerons still work thanks to the washout, though of course you shouldn't really be using them too emphatically close to the stall.

If you continue to pull then the aeroplane will eventually quit. Again, the nose drops pretty much straight down as long as you don't ask for the aeroplane to do otherwise.

By this time, the yoke is almost all the way back anyway, and the aeroplane has been mushing along wearing out the stall warner for quite some time, so you've had more than fair warning.

Both aeroplanes are trainers. They were designed to be flown by incompetent ab-initio pilots who wouldn't notice a gentle hint of an impending stall.

If you fly a Piper 38 then you'll get a more spirited performance at the stall.

You start to slow the aeroplane down, and the nose gets higher in the air and initially it's just like flying the other aeroplanes above.

But then you almost suddenly get into buffet, and the wing can be seen to really shake - the tips are probably moving plus/minus 6 inches or so.

You have been warned. Seconds later, one of the wings abruptly goes on strike. A proper strike, with picket lines and riot police.

By the time you've reacted (and remember, this is a deliberate stall, so you're ready) and started recovery action, you're somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60 degrees of bank. The nose has dropped as well of course.

It's a decidedly different experience, but I don't think that it's fair that the aeroplane has been dubbed "The Traumahawk". It's a perfectly honest aeroplane, but you wouldn't want to stall it at low altitude. Well duh. If you fly your patterns properly then you won't.

Reading descriptions of the stall behaviour of most WWII fighters suggests that they were mostly more like the Pa-38 than the Stearman. And of course, many of them (such as the 190 with its flaps up) would make the "Traumahawk" seem extremely docile. Actually, IMO the 190 as modelled has far too benign a stall; but that's not surprising as the 190's clean stall behaviour owed much of its violence to aero-elastic effects at least partially cancelling out its washout.

I've also flown a pretty wide variety of gliders IRL. Gliding entails using a lot more of the flight envelope than is normal boring holes in the sky between A and B in light aeroplanes.

In particular, flying in thermals quite often entails flying in close proximity to the stall with quite a lot of bank, potentially in rough air.

The interesting thing about gliders is that they generally have considerably lighter stick forces than GA aeroplanes, largely because there is an expectation that they will be in almost constant manoeuvre. Because of the high aspect ratio of the wings, there is almost always lots of adverse yaw.

In fact, in some cases rudder rather than aileron is the limiting factor when you want to roll.

This means that glider pilots develop active feet, which greatly simplifies tailwheel conversion.

However they are obtained, active feet have quite an impact upon the stall experience. If you keep the ball in the middle then you're not asking the aeroplane to drop a wing. That doesn't necessarily mean that it won't, but it certainly makes it less likely.

The above stall descriptions relate to decelerating gently in approximately level flight.

If you get to the stalling alpha under different circumstances then your mileage may be expected to vary.

Which brings us to the sim.

AFAIK, Oleg uses a force limited model. When you apply full stick deflection, you're actually asking your virtual pilot to apply full stick deflection, or the limiting force (I believe it's 25 kgf), whichever comes first.

Most consumer sticks have a travel of a few inches, and a force for full deflection of perhaps 1 kgf or less.

Therein lies the rub.

I have a Cougar with the FSSB mod. I've set it up so that full stick deflection requires about 8 lbf in pitch and 6 lbf in roll. I also have simpeds. My il2 input settings are 100 for everything.

This gives quite a realistic experience of flight. In particular, trimming works well because I just hold the aeroplane level and bump the hat switch until the stick force goes to zero.

I think that stalls in the game are not unreasonable, but the model is probably excessively forgiving in general, perhaps largely to compensate for the general inadequacy of most cheap joysticks...

K_Freddie
04-08-2009, 07:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
..My il2 input settings are 100 for everything.

This gives quite a realistic experience of flight. .. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've always said the same, as it makes the a/c very responsive, to the slightest movements.
makes the FW a delight to 'fly'.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Vanderstok
04-08-2009, 09:07 AM
My real flying experience is limited to a few weeks of flying gliders (a long time ago), but I agree about those joystick settings. That's why I wanted a longer flightstick badly. I had to build a small simpit around it though.

See here for a small video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99kNWDGqB3c

As you will see the hand (and feet, but you can't see) move around all the time, just as I remember it from real life...

Hookecho
04-08-2009, 10:17 AM
a couple of weeks ago one of out members took an hour long flight in "Crazyhorse" a TF-51D based in Kissimee (sp?) Florida. The neat thing is they provided a video of the whole flight.

The pilot let our squad member who also has a PPL to fly the plane from the back seat, thru rolls and loops, and then stalls. What was interesting to me was just above the stall (level, power on) at about 70 indicated, there was as the pilot said "a cavatation, as the air was breaking over the wings" and you could see it on the video, like they were in a boat, easy close together waves, then "pop" (you could hear it) it stalled both wings (unusual said the pilot) and out guy over hooked it and entered a small accelerated stall. it was pretty cool to watch.

The most amazing thing in my mind was our guy got to actually land the thing. The pilot handed over the controls after the break, and our member flew a modified downwind to base then to final and actually landed the bird. The pilot tookover on the rollout and then let him taxi it for a while until our member almost ran a wheel in the grass s-turning along, he couldnt get a good view from the back seat.

he noted that in the sim you dont feel the acceleration, which is true for all sims, and you dont feel the weight (mass) of the airplane in your hand, again true of all sims.

K_Freddie
04-09-2009, 01:26 PM
Like to see the video... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Vanderstok
04-10-2009, 02:57 AM
In that case, here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...m0DI&feature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFdvgJBm0DI&feature=channel)

It shows the use of TrackIR and 6DOF pretty well... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
04-10-2009, 03:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Outlaw---:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
So nowadays I am dreaming about a sim pit chair, which would give me a clue about the acceleration forces by its position (e.g., putting me lower under G load, or slightly away from the screen with acceleration). In the same fashion, slip could turn the seat slightly. This doesn't come close to the real feelings in the inner ear, but it would give your some substitute physical signals, which we all miss today (even those with FFB sticks). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I built a prototype 4 piezo electric buzzer setup that would buzz depending on the direction of slip and how many g you were pulling. It was, at the very best, a VERY early pre-alpha type setup as I simply placed the buzzers under my thighs but it did work---offline. Since the devicelink interface does not provide much information in online mode I abandoned it. My eventual plan was to have servos mounted in my simpit that would press on my thighs from the sides.

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this is not longer an obstacle. Allowing the devicelink feature online is probably easier and more meaningful than modeling every Bf-109 werknr. to its special flight model.

I also had the idea of straps which pull at higher G's, but I think the negative Gs, and in general, all kind of accelerations should be modelled somehow. So positioning your seat vs. the rest of the simpit might give subtle, yet easily recognizable indication of the acceleration forces calculated by the sim.

M_Gunz
04-10-2009, 04:17 AM
If you tilt the seat even a little, 2 or 3 degree it will cause the person to lean just that bit.
In a skidding turn the ball drifts to the outside of the turn, as would a weight on a string,
so have the seat tilt the person the same side as the ball. Your butt would sense your slip
as "down" changes beneath you.

Hookecho
04-10-2009, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Like to see the video... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask and you shall recieve.......

Broken up in 4 parts

http://352ndfg.com/smf/index.php?topic=1795.0

zxwings
04-11-2009, 07:11 PM
It has been said by people who have flown both in the sim and in a real aircaft that the real flight in the air is the easier of the two, because in front of the computer you are deprived of many kinds of senses (sorry, not sure how to express it) which are naturally present in a real flight.

TS_Sancho
04-11-2009, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zxwings:
It has been said by people who have flown both in the sim and in a real aircaft that the real flight in the air is the easier of the two, because in front of the computer you are deprived of many kinds of senses (sorry, not sure how to express it) which are naturally present in a real flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure.

zxwings
04-11-2009, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zxwings:
It has been said by people who have flown both in the sim and in a real aircaft that the real flight in the air is the easier of the two, because in front of the computer you are deprived of many kinds of senses (sorry, not sure how to express it) which are naturally present in a real flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you have mentioned is just one of the many proofs of my point. That body sensatoin is a big clue to your aircraft's current state in flight, even with your eyes closed. Well, I was misunderstood: you were talking about comfort, and I the better knowledge and control of the flight itself. Additionally, the special training of their bodies that fighter pilots have to undergo on the ground before their first flight will make them a lot more used to the discomfort they will experience in the air.

rnzoli
04-12-2009, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Absolutely true, but it is also quite unnatural to control the airplane without ANY sensation of accelerations. A substitute sensory input can only improve things, big time. While the sim software can take care of painting your lunch onto the windscreen when you exceed -2Gs', I don't care as long as I "feel" in some way the accelerations acting on the simulated pilot.

TX-EcoDragon
04-12-2009, 02:13 PM
Esel1964, I'm glad that you took the opportunity to do some flying in those birds and got a taste of why flying is so magical!(people always say "given the chance" as if by accidental luck - go out and take the opportunity guys!)


My .02 on the last couple posts about feel: While it's all the rage to bash Oleg and his sounds (and yes I understand why), the fact is he did a pretty darn good job with IL-2 with respect to accelerations and "feel" given that we really have none in a video game (and FFB isn't a realistic medium to introduce it, at least that I've seen). The changes in the slipstream acoustics, headshake along with airframe buffeting to indicate the buffet and pretty well done +G visualizations (red-out is not so well done but at least it's restricts insane pushes) all come together to provide pretty good feel for a sim.

Many people who have been flying with the mods have lost some of these effects, and much of the "feel" that had been there. The fact that most people don't notice that makes me fairly sure that they were never paying much attention to those things in the first place, which is unfortunate really.

zxwings, if you've ever gone though unusual attitudes with your eyes closed you might not have said what you did. . sure you will know you are pulling or push some Gs, but our kinesthetic sense is not equipped to give much useful information in the cockpit, it's mostly visual in fact. Certainly those forces do mean something and can be used in concert with open eyes, but visuals are far and away the means by which maneuvering flight is flown. One of the best ways to prove this to someone is to have them close their eyes and I can get half way through a barrel roll and tell them to open their eyes. . .they never even know they rolled, and the increased G can be minimal, so they are usually pretty surprised to be inverted and starting to dive. This issue is one of the big reasons why we need gyrosopic instruments on the panel to fly in clouds. . .otherwise we will be doing blind aerobatics.

Another thing rnzoli - it's been my experience that sim pilots also find it quite unnatural to control a plane WITH the sensations of accelerations! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
04-12-2009, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Another thing rnzoli - it's been my experience that sim pilots also find it quite unnatural to control a plane WITH the sensations of accelerations! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you mean when they take a seat in the real thing? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-EcoDragon
04-12-2009, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Another thing rnzoli - it's been my experience that sim pilots also find it quite unnatural to control a plane WITH the sensations of accelerations! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you mean when they take a seat in the real thing? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep!

I've also taken professional R/C aerobatic pilots up. . .they are even more confounded by the experience when they see their first snap roll or even a loop from the inside!

A similarly funny thing is that I'll sometimes feel myself starting to tense into an anti-G strain when maneuvering in sims. . .only for an instant before I catch myself . . .

The thing is, our minds have the greatest power for creating that immersion that simmers always talk about. . .getting in the right mindset will do more for immersion than any other thing.

ElAurens
04-12-2009, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
The thing is, our minds have the greatest power for creating that immersion that simmers always talk about. . .getting in the right mindset will do more for immersion than any other thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Post of the year so far.

wheelsup_cavu
04-12-2009, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Esel1964:
This past weekend,I had the privilege to fly on Colling's Foundation B-17 "Ole 909" on Friday(which I'll post pics and video of when they're ready),then on Saturday I rode in Cavanaugh's Flight Museum's Stearman.

The Stearman is what I'd like to talk about right now.The pilot was a commercial pilot with 7000 hr,and it's his finesse and light touch on the controls I want to compare with my sim experiences.
I've been flying IL-2 since the day ' Forgotten Battles' was released,I went to Best Buy and waited for them to put them on the shelves,literally-so,I'm no newb,except for online flying-which I hope to get in on soon with the help of Choctaw111.
I've been flying MSFS9 for almost 4 yr.,and WoV for about 3 yr.

I know,of course that none of these has a Stearman,so I have no direct comparison.
But during my Stearman ride,I was watching the guages and controls the pilot was putting into the aircraft.

What blew me away,was how small the control inputs the pilot was making were.I never saw the ailerons move more than maybe 3/8",and even in a 30 degree bank,he kept the slip ball centered,and this was on a day when we were having wind gusts of up to 30 mph.

When we landed,I asked his secret for keeping the ball centered was,and he said "Oh,just hours in the seat".
True we weren't dogfighting,as when I fly IL-2 my slip ball is constantly on the move.

I guess seat time is the secret to truly finessed flying vs. what I'm sure,many of us experience.
This guy was good,unbelievably smooth.So practice,practice,practice.It seems to be the key between finessing a plane vs. throwing it around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, lucky you. Just a couple days before your thread I was watching Jay Leno go through that very same aircraft
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/...yer.shtml?vid=745181 (http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=745181)
I quess your pilot knows his sh/t!...I'm happy that you got to enjoy that aircraft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great video at Leno's garage Slipball.

Wheelsup

M_Gunz
04-13-2009, 01:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Absolutely true, but it is also quite unnatural to control the airplane without ANY sensation of accelerations. A substitute sensory input can only improve things, big time. While the sim software can take care of painting your lunch onto the windscreen when you exceed -2Gs', I don't care as long as I "feel" in some way the accelerations acting on the simulated pilot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I say tilt the seat, and monitor too if possible. You should feel as if being accelerated to the side, front
or back. Not as much as real by any extent but something even if it's just slip or skid.

I've "flown" full motion boxes and they only work with hints but it's verrrrry effective. Of course they can give you
negative and positive G's for short periods. There's special interlocks to keep them from shaking people inside to death
just because they have the capability. But for a HOME setup like that Greek guy did with the PVC tube frame, feeding slip
into the tilt instead of roll and putting a hood over the works (no outside cues of where up is) should be worth trying out.

squareusr
04-13-2009, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
the wind rush gets louder as you go into slip </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That has always been a speculation of mine and i have been wondering if my assumptions were wrong or i should be disappointed about the lack of wind noise slip feedback the sim, because it is one of the few things that could work in a sim.

I knew a car that had huge changes of the wind noise around the roof whenever you hit the brakes while going fast, all because of the change of "alpha" caused by the deceleration. Going two or three times as fast would certainly not weaken effects like this.

Davinci..
04-13-2009, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zxwings:
It has been said by people who have flown both in the sim and in a real aircaft that the real flight in the air is the easier of the two, because in front of the computer you are deprived of many kinds of senses (sorry, not sure how to express it) which are naturally present in a real flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldnt agree more!!
Here is my first spin(my instructor demonstrating) in a cessna, while getting my ppl,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?g...v=ubxBIdFjS9g&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=ubxBIdFjS9g&fmt=18)

While it may not seem like much, i can tell you, i probably would have preferred to have been deprived of my senses for it. In desktop flying, you never have to worry about sensory overload, being kicked around your cockpit by turbulence, and how quickly strange attitudes can overwhelm your "senses", it can actually be more confusing then helpful.

There is a whole lot more going on in real flying, and its not always positive.

rnzoli
04-13-2009, 02:51 PM
lol, your video also nicely demontrates the gimbal lock of the artificial horizon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

zxwings
04-13-2009, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Davinci..:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:

The physical sensation of just a little neg G feels a whole lot more unnatural to the body than your chair failing to tilt with the view on the monitor.Be sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I couldnt agree more!!
Here is my first spin(my instructor demonstrating) in a cessna, while getting my ppl,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?g...v=ubxBIdFjS9g&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=ubxBIdFjS9g&fmt=18)

While it may not seem like much, i can tell you, i probably would have preferred to have been deprived of my senses for it. In desktop flying, you never have to worry about sensory overload, being kicked around your cockpit by turbulence, and how quickly strange attitudes can overwhelm your "senses", it can actually be more confusing then helpful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Personally, I don't think you will still think so after you have done 1000 hours of aerobatics flying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif. Also, if one cannot get used to the special training as shown in the following images, then he or she is not suitable to be an aerobatics or fighter pilot.

http://ctjb.cnhubei.com/html/ctjb/20080911/..%5C..%5C..%5Cctjb%5C20080911%5Cm_ssjjzg911c_9.jp g

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8016/001372d8a1370a1c9e0126.jpg

Some people even vomit when on a train or a ship.

T_O_A_D
04-13-2009, 11:40 PM
Esel1964

I'm glad you got the chance to go up, looking forward to see me of it.

I too noticed the lack of input applied to the stick in real life a few years back when I go the chance to fly an AT-6. Since then I've adopted an even easier hand myself virtually and it pays off.

Link on my flight in in my sig, if your bored, and need a bit of time reaidng.