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raaaid
05-23-2009, 07:09 AM
check out this virtual reality effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

this is not just 6dof, its a looking through a window effect in which everything has a correct realistic size

now thats what i did:

i measured the angle that the screen takes from my point of view, 60

i set fov when shooting to 60

on this way if both fov are equal im seeing planes and everithing at a realistic size which allows the brain to aim based on realistic sizes, speeds

just as johny lee does

it would be great if this window effect was implemented in bob, or maybe some modder could do it now?

i can say i improved my gunnery 100% using this realism setting

raaaid
05-23-2009, 07:09 AM
check out this virtual reality effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

this is not just 6dof, its a looking through a window effect in which everything has a correct realistic size

now thats what i did:

i measured the angle that the screen takes from my point of view, 60

i set fov when shooting to 60

on this way if both fov are equal im seeing planes and everithing at a realistic size which allows the brain to aim based on realistic sizes, speeds

just as johny lee does

it would be great if this window effect was implemented in bob, or maybe some modder could do it now?

i can say i improved my gunnery 100% using this realism setting

Bearcat99
05-23-2009, 10:52 AM
Wow..... that is.... amazing. I usually look at your posts with a bent eye raaaid (no offense) but this is.. amazing.

funkster319
05-23-2009, 11:28 AM
Not sure I understand ?

You mesured distance ? or Angle? If later Angle to what?

raaaid
05-23-2009, 11:59 AM
well bearcat if you think its amazing i can prove by this forum and natural point one i was the first to have this idea

though i dont think johny lee copied me just both had the same idea

but it took me 4 years investigating perspective trying to find a paradox coming with this idea

is next logical step to 6dof, like looking through a real window

it has the problem of screen size but you could solve this problem rendering a world half smaller

the trick is keep game fov and fov that screen takes from your eyes equal

oh i could go on on how virtual reality hints to a flawed reality forever

for example you are on a planetarium seeing everything real size, you double the size of all stars by zooming with virtual binoculars

your world now is an sphere of 720

edit:

the most intersting issue of this idea is the many paradoxes it brings if you play with zoom

if with a fov of 90 you see 1 squared meter if you want to see a square double big, 4 squared meters, fov will be 127, not 180

but consider the planetarium example, you double the size of everithing, youll be living in an imaginary 620 sphere

to understand this paradox just picture all your surroundings with your minds eye and zoom it to be double size, what do you get?

M_Gunz
05-23-2009, 01:20 PM
IL2 fully zoomed in view shows the real size since even the demo.

ElAurens
05-23-2009, 01:45 PM
That Johnny Lee video has been around for quite some time. Nothing new there.

At all.

It's a rather interesting optical illusion, but like Max says the zoomed in "gun sight" view does indeed give the real perspective.

raaaid
05-23-2009, 01:46 PM
not the realistic size is only when the angle the screen takes from your eyes is equal to fov

dont ask me why cause it took me years thinking to realize of this thought if you want i could make a drawing to prove it

but id rather not plz think by yourself youll see it

edit:

all right gunsight view gives you a realistic size

but at what distance?

for every fov theres an exact distance at which objects appear real size

thats the thing with the idea you vary fov as you vary distance to the screen shwoing always a realistic size of everithing

this idea has been dismmissed before for being the screen too samll

the new idea is to render the world half big which will be equivalent to a double size screen

ive worked several years in perpective looking for a flaw which brought fruiction to this idea, i quitted on perspective when i found the paradox i just mentioned

the idea is extreamly simple to develope:

keep fov of game and fov the screen takes from your eyes equal via head tracker

reduce size of evrything to a half or quarter(you could keep this function on buttons like now)(i said reduce size not change fov which is different, fov must be equal to the angle the screen makes from your eyes)

hey do you think i should post this in aaa in case some mod liked to do it?

ElAurens
05-23-2009, 02:00 PM
raaaid, this subject has been hashed over several times since the original IL2 came out.

With many applicable charts, graphs, tracks, and general forum upheaval.

I forget the exact distance you should sit away from the monitor screen, but when you do, and go to the zoomed in gun sight view, your fov, and the objects you see are in correct perspective and size, compared to the actual view from a real cockpit.

raaaid
05-23-2009, 02:34 PM
of course gunsight view is realistic at a certain exact distance

but if you have a screen 1 m wide and you are looking at it at 0.5 m distance...

...the realistic size will be 90 fov

i can proof this any time with trigonometry charts

Ba5tard5word
05-23-2009, 02:46 PM
Is he saying it's easier to hit the enemy when you zoom in? I don't get it.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

raaaid
05-23-2009, 03:09 PM
im saying that if you see objects real size its easier to aim since your brain operates with real values

weve been trillion years calculating real distances and speeds

Tully__
05-23-2009, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
of course gunsight view is realistic at a certain exact distance

but <span class="ev_code_red">if you have a screen 1 m wide</span> and you are looking at it at 0.5 m distance...

...the realistic size will be 90 fov

i can proof this any time with trigonometry charts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_red">1m HIGH</span>, FOV in this game specifies screen height, not screen width.

With everyone using large size widescreens these days, at typical screen distance 40 - 45 degrees FOV is probably closer than the full zoom/gunsight view used to be. When the game was first released and screens were typically 15-17" CRTs the 30 degree FOV fit really nice for real world object size.

http://mywebsite.bigpond.com/dav2ken/zoomview.jpg

ElAurens
05-23-2009, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:

With everyone using large size widescreens these days, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm.... I'm still using a 19" ViewSonic CRT monitor. I've yet to see a widescreen that can match it's color saturation, refresh rate, and overall sharpness, especially for what it cost.

Skoshi Tiger
05-23-2009, 07:17 PM
Hmmm!

So, in theory, you could enter the size of your screen, then using the trackIR and 6DOF, measure the initial distance to your head when you press F12, then have your program continually changing the perspective of the image to keep the FOV of the image correct for your head position.

ElAurens, the size of your monitor shouldn't matter, it's how you use it! Depending on the distance away would only change the angle that you can see.


I wonder if Track IR accurate enough to measure the distances to the required tolerences?
Sounds cool!

Bearcat99
05-23-2009, 07:19 PM
I dont know if this is old news or what.. I have never seen it.. and I think that many are missing the point in the video.. From what I saw it looks like... the thing is simulating not just 6DoF.. but 3D. It looks PDG to me.. Optical illusion? Sure.. but it looks pretty cool to me.

Skoshi Tiger
05-23-2009, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I dont know if this is old news or what.. I have never seen it.. and I think that many are missing the point in the video.. From what I saw it looks like... the thing is simulating not just 6DoF.. but 3D. It looks PDG to me.. Optical illusion? Sure.. but it looks pretty cool to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All stereoscopic 3d vision is an optical illusion. Our heads only have two 2D sensors and its our brains that combines the information to make it a 3D image. I think the trick is in getting the images close enough to what our brain is expecting so we don't notice the errors

Ba5tard5word
05-23-2009, 09:08 PM
How would you do this in Il-2? I have no idea if there are FOV settings in the game.

zardozid
05-23-2009, 11:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I dont know if this is old news or what.. I have never seen it.. and I think that many are missing the point in the video.. From what I saw it looks like... the thing is simulating not just 6DoF.. but 3D. It looks PDG to me.. Optical illusion? Sure.. but it looks pretty cool to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, the last time this was up here a lot of people where saying it was the same as TrackIR/6DOF, but I think they where missing the point. Most games use 6Dof/headtracking to simulated what someone would see in the virtual world as they look around (the screen is the eyes)...but this guy is suggesting that we should use the screen as a "window" into the virtual world. I don't know of any game that uses the technology in this way...very interesting effect.

M_Gunz
05-24-2009, 12:15 AM
TIR is looking at where your head is pointing. Johnny Lee includes knowing where your head is.
Do you want to have to move your head way to the side to look to the side and the limit that goes with it.. in a sim?
Answer should be "no way!".

P.FunkAdelic
05-24-2009, 03:09 AM
But isn't this guy talking about gunnery? As in the moment you're staring through the pipper? Obviously most of the time you'd want to be in wide view to see around you but when aiming your guns we tend to switch to a zoom.

Now is he offering the idea that with some software and a head tracker you would have it so that no matter what distance you are from the screen you're always seeing it, relative to your screen size, the correct zoom, separate from how close your face is to it? Meaning you wouldn't have to ensure your head was the right distance from the monitor to maintain a perfect FOV match to what your brain wants to classify as real size.

If you guys are saying that the zoomed 30' FOV is perfect size doesn't it mean that depending on your monitor you'd have to be a different distance away? And with a head tracker like this you'd actually not have to hold your head anywhere but that the computer would calculate where it is so that no matter where you are holding your head your eyes will see the right size for estimating deflection angles etc?

Not sure if that made much sense but we'll find out.

raaaid
05-24-2009, 06:33 AM
funkadelic you got it perfectly

this has a problem though:

it would be a small window to look thorugh, maybe not it was point out by dtractors of the idea

but you could solve this keeping both fov offset but yet syncronized


this idea is that your screen would be a window into that world

M_Gunz
05-24-2009, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
it would be a small window to look thorugh, maybe not it was point out by dtractors of the idea </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a good idea used for what it's meant for.
In sim we are inside the window, not outside looking in through a frame.

wayno7777
05-25-2009, 12:51 AM
That's interesting. A while back, I went thru all the fov's and settled on 60 degrees 'cause it just looked right. Now I know why....

squareusr
05-25-2009, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
TIR is looking at where your head is pointing. Johnny Lee includes knowing where your head is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
6DOF is both of those.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Do you want to have to move your head way to the side to look to the side and the limit that goes with it.. in a sim?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's even worse: with the Jonny Lee Fishtank effect you cannot look to the back! At all! Never! Otherwise that precious little illusion would break.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Answer should be "no way!". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could not agree more with this.

Oh, and what about touching the monitor with the your nose to scan more of the sky than that narrow frustrum you would see looking through a window the size of your monitor?

Jonny Lee is only doing (with an integrated toy) what many others have done before, with more challenging tools. That doesn't make it any less of an achievement, but his tricks are far from the relevation as many people percieve them. The term "over-rated" comes to mind. What sets him apart is better youtube presence and the hype around the Nintendo-strikes-back console.

M_Gunz
05-25-2009, 04:26 PM
Oh, and what about touching the monitor with the your nose to scan more of the sky than that narrow frustrum you would see looking through a window the size of your monitor?

The picture might look just a bit grainy that way?

And that video by Johnny Lee is years old IIRC.

BillSwagger
05-25-2009, 08:25 PM
it seems like he is on to something.

whats to say they couldn't also create a pan that would rotate the window that you are looking through. It does give a simulated 3d effect that normal head tracking seems to ignore because it doesn't shift objects in view related to the position of your virtual head.

i still need to look at 6DoF.

salute.

raaaid
05-26-2009, 07:26 AM
you just dont understand the idea

this is normal 6dof, identical to the mod version

except for that the pc makes a calculation to keep game fov equal to the fov the screen takes from your eyes

if you think you should get closer to the window to see more you just press the zoom out button keeping the effect but seeing more of the world

what happens with the deleted threads? i posted about this very long ago calling it gunsight effect but i just find it from 2006 there are missing posts or what?

i was the 1st to have this idea

edit:

here the proof that i had this idea first:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...271080705#2271080705 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2271080705?r=2271080705#2271080705)

and that johny lee video is from 21 12 2007

Tully__
05-26-2009, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I dont know if this is old news or what.. I have never seen it.. and I think that many are missing the point in the video.. From what I saw it looks like... the thing is simulating not just 6DoF.. but 3D. It looks PDG to me.. Optical illusion? Sure.. but it looks pretty cool to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nah, similar to 6DOF from TrackIR except . The only differences is the mapping/profile and there is no pan control, so it's more like 4DOF.

squareusr
05-26-2009, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
this is normal 6dof, identical to the mod version
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the fishtank effect is 3DOF: position left/right, position high/low and position close/far. A two-point marker array like the one he is using in the video could give a 4th degree of freedom (roll) but that would not be helpful for the fishtank effect. Rotation up/down and rotation left/right needs at least three non-in-line marker points or has to be simulated by remapping the position axes, which was what pre-6DOF TrackIR had been doing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From what I saw it looks like... the thing is simulating not just 6DoF.. but 3D. It looks PDG to me.. Optical illusion? Sure.. but it looks pretty cool to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A 2D projection always stays a flat 2D projection, even if it corrects perspective with your head movements. But if you put that 2D projection inside another 2D projection, ideally featuring some actual reality inside the outer projection (like in that youtube video), then the fake 3D of the "inner projection" will look as real as the surrounding video footage. Inside the video, the virtaul fishtank content is no more flat than the captured reality around it, that's why it feels so "real". Even if it is technically less than what the average mod user has on his screen every day.

raaaid
05-26-2009, 09:14 AM
ive been thinking farther and johny lee video is not exactly what i propose:

keep 6dof as it is but:

synchronize game fov and fov the screen takes from your eyes

on this way the realistic 3d effect is granted since you ll have the feeling of looking through a window THAT CAN MOVE ON 6DOF

squareusr
05-26-2009, 03:51 PM
That would imply inverse zoom control, move your head away from the screen to make the gunsight big... i don't think that would be very satisfying.

BillSwagger
05-26-2009, 07:31 PM
i just saw a video on 6DoF. seems to be better suited for the cockpit.
I thought that was pretty cool, too.

Its a matter of choosing a 'window' to view into the virtual world or actually controlling a virtual head located in the virtual world.

raaaid
05-27-2009, 07:02 AM
i havent explained myself very well:

studying perspective i rediscovered that if you look at a picture with the same fov than the fov the picture was taken you wont be able to tell the picture from reality

from there my proposition of adding to 6dof the matching of both fov so you cant distinguish the simulation from reality

the idea is keep 6dof and adding it the window effect, you can have both you are not forced to chose one and leave the other, you can have both

squareusr
05-27-2009, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
from there my proposition of adding to 6dof the matching of both fov so you cant distinguish the simulation from reality </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only if you lack a second eye (and again, you'd have to stick your nose into the screen to get an acceptable wide angle view if you sync eye position and FOW as you described). Trust a stranger on the internet, sometimes they are right.

Maybe you are talking about 6DOF position shift relative to the view direction vs. fixed direction 6DOF position shift, this varies between implementations of 6DOF.

Btw, you can take your TrackIR, capture the control signal with glovepie, apply any formulas that you consider useful to the data and then forward to the IL2 6DOF mod. It could not possibly become any easier to do some experiments, so why don't you test your theories/dreams yourself?

raaaid
05-27-2009, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ou'd have to stick your nose into the screen to get an acceptable wide angle view if you sync eye position and FOW as you described </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is not true, you can keep fov syncronized yet lets say 20 offset

realistic view= equal fovs

zoom out: fov sync but with 20 plus

zoom in: fov sync but with 20 offset less

raaaid
05-27-2009, 01:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">to do some experiments, so why don't you test your theories/dreams yourself? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh ill do it as a last resort but better if someone does it for me, im lazy

raaaid
06-05-2009, 06:14 AM
here someone else working at the same idea:

http://www.kuubee.com/index.ph...wpoint-code-download (http://www.kuubee.com/index.php/2008/02/28/virtual-viewpoint-code-download)

shame it doesnt work for me


here a video of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJZYshi2I1k

Lurch1962
06-06-2009, 08:53 PM
Raaaid's concept is quite correct here, as I've said in response to his original post on this very subject a couple or few years ago. But it's in the execution where a potential problem *might* crop up.

Imagine this. Let's say you have the 6dof mod and have suitable hardware, and furthermore are set up to move the virtual viewpoint fore/aft as you move your head fore/aft. That is, you are *NOT* changing the FOV whatsoever, but instead are simply translating the virtual pilot's in-cockpit position longitudinally.

Now fly at constant distance behind a bomber so that its wingspan exactly fills a 100 mil gun sight reticle. As you move closer to the screen, your virtual viewpoint moves forward so that the gunsight housing/reflector glass appears to come closer to your eyes (as do other slightly more distant in-cockpit structures and gauges, but to a lesser degree.) Because the plane is too far for its perspective to have changed, it will still exactly fill the 100 mil reticle.

While the on-screen representation is correct when viewed from a *fixed* distance from the screen, it is *not* correct as seen from the player's moving perspective. That's because as his eyes move closer to the screen, the screen itself and the contents thereon appear to increase in size, just as though the view was zoomed in a bit (and with the screen expanding in size as well).

To better understand this... while you read this text lean far back in your chair, and then lean in really close. As you move in, the text appears to expand in size and hence become easier to read, perhaps even deconvolving into pixels. Now imagine software that senses the distance of your eyes from the screen and always compensates so that the text never *appears* to shrink/grow as you move about. To a second observer looking over your shoulder, the screen's contents will shrink (un-zoom) as *you* move closer to the screen, and vice versa.

What Raaid is proposing is an additional parameter which acts in this way, exactly canceling out the apparent change in view *scale* as the player leans toward and away from the screen. In other words, as you lean toward the screen so that your virtual pilot moves closer toward the gunsight, the view would 'un-zoom' by just the correct amount so as to keep the image *scale* unchanged at all times.

The result would be just like viewing the virtual world through a window whose represented distance exactly coincides with the plane of the monitor's screen. As you move in closer, the FOV would increase exactly as it does in reality.

The part of the process that I don't deem as important is this. As the video demonstrates, if you translate your head laterally toward the right (*without* necessarily rotating your head), the virtual window allows you to see a bit more toward the left. This is not a reaslly necessary feature for flight simmers because head rotation is the primary means to pan the view. Not that that I'm advocating against this, because this component of perspective change will generally contribute to only a smallish relative degree.

The potential problem I alluded to has to do with this. As the view changes its FOV in response to the player's eye-to-screen distance, small scale details could suffer from the necessary variation in pixel count per unit of on-screen size. This *could* be objectionable, but perhaps not with a sufficient degree of anti-aliasing...

Tully__
06-07-2009, 05:58 AM
The reflector glass increases in apparent size as you move towards it but the reticle doesn't...try Shift-F1 to double check, its more obvious in allied aircraft where the pilot view point change due to Shift-F1 is more fore/aft and missing the sideways component present in some of the axis aircraft.
Note that Shift-F1 doesn't change FOV, it only translates the pilots head/sitting position between a comfortable crusing posture and a "hunched over the gunsight" combat posture.

raaaid
06-07-2009, 09:50 AM
when i first developed this idea after years searching for a paradox in perspective i called it the gunsight effect cause wwii gunsights work just like this idea