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Blecherinkoller
10-12-2006, 10:26 PM
Hello everbody! This is my first post here.

1. I play with NYGM 2.2. And its great! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif However one thing isnt quite to my liking. I think the machineguns on the airplanes are to powerful. If I choose to stay on the surface,and fight it out, the airplanes blow me to pieces! They dont need bombs or depthcharges anymore. I can agree that the Hurricane had some nasty cannons, and that they can or could inflict severe damage. But my question is: Can I adjust the power of airguns in some file?

2. The airborne bombs and dephtcharges. Is it possible to increase their power? I have read some books on the subject. And a perfect "straddle" would destroy the boat. And even a near miss would cause severe damage. As things are now, the planes blast me with machineguns, causing unrealistic damage. The bombs and depthcharges doesnt do much damage. They are spreading them all over the ocean.

So what I want to do is:

A. Decrease bulletpower

B. Increase the power of airborne depthcharges and bombs.

Is this possible to do? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Blecherinkoller
10-12-2006, 10:26 PM
Hello everbody! This is my first post here.

1. I play with NYGM 2.2. And its great! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif However one thing isnt quite to my liking. I think the machineguns on the airplanes are to powerful. If I choose to stay on the surface,and fight it out, the airplanes blow me to pieces! They dont need bombs or depthcharges anymore. I can agree that the Hurricane had some nasty cannons, and that they can or could inflict severe damage. But my question is: Can I adjust the power of airguns in some file?

2. The airborne bombs and dephtcharges. Is it possible to increase their power? I have read some books on the subject. And a perfect "straddle" would destroy the boat. And even a near miss would cause severe damage. As things are now, the planes blast me with machineguns, causing unrealistic damage. The bombs and depthcharges doesnt do much damage. They are spreading them all over the ocean.

So what I want to do is:

A. Decrease bulletpower

B. Increase the power of airborne depthcharges and bombs.

Is this possible to do? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Eoweth
10-13-2006, 02:03 AM
The NYGM team have done a ton of research into depth charges and their usage and NYGM 2.2's handling of it is pretty spot on.

A perfect straddle can destroy your boat, it just won't blow it up and isn't easy for a plane to acheive, especially if you're evading (which you should be!) Ships won't blow up much in NYGM, the damage system is such that things sink by flooding.

As uboat.net mentions (http://uboat.net/allies/technical/depth_charges.htm), "...most U-boats that were sunk by depth charges alone probably sank due to accumulated damage from repeated depth charge attacks. Many U-boats survived as many as 300 depth charges over a period of many hours." In order to make that historcal fact mesh with the nearly equal loss of U-boats to ships (264) and airplanes (250) aircraft damage was up'd.

This was also done to provide more of a challenge to the players. Planes are once again something to fear rather than toy with as they drop water splashes near you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Teddy had a great post on SubSim today about how depth charge damage works, and it includes a bit about aircraft damage as well:

From Teddy Bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The way that depth charges work in SHIII is as follows.

To remove Hull Integrity the depth charge must be closer than the minimum radius of splash damage. The ammunition has maximum hit points until this distance.

At distances greater than minimum radius no Hull Integrity is lost but zones i.e. compartments machinery etc can take damage if the HP is greater then the armour.

The depth charge HP continues to be reduced up until the maximum radius of splash damage.

The NYGM Depth charge has its minimum radius as 4.5 metres.

I would ask that you be sure of the distance as it is often deceptively farther away than it looks.

As for accuracy of the depth charges under NYGM, that probably comes as a result of the NYGM configuration having a minimum range at 300 metres. So once the escort is within 300 metres it looses ???contact??? with you.

Maybe we need to adjust this figure back a little to try and get a better in game result.


NYGM are aiming for sinking primarily through flooding. As for real world one hit outright kills I think that most will find that u-boats were a lot tougher than they realised. I think that the real world escorts were probably better at boxing the u-boat with a set of depth charges.

But as Ducimus correctly states, when a depth charge is very close there should be a high chance that there is a lot of machinery damage etc.

However in SHIII we have the issue that only a few items of machinery are modelled and due to the way that the DM is done it is not that great for having machinery damage and not having compartment flooding.

As for the dive planes & rudders etc we have no partial damage effects such as jamming. We have no bent drive shafts etc etc etc


From the Jurrgen Oesten interview by the SHIII Dev Team. In this interview he relates a how he was caught submerged by a British destroyer and as a result they received a large amount of damage to the Type II u-boat. The punch line is that a depth charge exploded so close to the u-boat that it dented the pressure hull and knocked the diesel engine off it mounts. This dent was seen from inside the u-boat.

Teddy Suhren's VII which when depth charged by a plane the 3 explosion was so close as to have an instance where 'a thin jet of flame shot from the closed hatch to the number 5 torpedo tube'... however there were no leakages to the pressure hull, Tube #5 was flooded though.
Hardegen in U-123 had a salvo of 6 depth charges dropped on/around the u-boat in water only 22 metres deep. The damage was listed as???
head valves were open i.e. compressed air escaping
tower hatch cracked open (but was closed)
the port engine was down
several tanks could not be blown
most of the batteries were out
bent drive shaft/s
hydrophones out
hydroplanes out

This is the major damage listed, but in all this, no mention of any flooding and there was certainly no flooding of any significance.


To explain the SHIII damage model better???

If we have 2 zones that are 3 x 3 metres which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ???hit??? from one side. The armour value on the 1st zone we have set so that only a depth charge of maximum HP will cause any damage and on the 2nd zone the armour value is setup so that it can be damaged by all depth charges.

For this exercise the depth charge will explode 10 metres from the zone and has a maximum radius of 15. Again, each zone can only be directly ???hit??? from the side that it is on. The maximum HP is 240, but the actual HP is 200.

Zone 1. A depth charge goes off next to the 1st zone that is of 200HP and as a result no damage is done.
Zone 2. A depth charge goes off next to the 2nd zone that is of 200HP and as a result damage is done.

Here is where the SHIII DM falls apart???

As the depth charge defeated the armour of the 2nd zone, the depth charge will now damage the 1st zone as it is within the 15 metre radius.

That is because each zones armour value is not calculated; only the value of the 1st zone encountered is.

A classic example of this was with the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod. After configuring it all up and being happy with it I could not for the life of me understand why the Fuel Bunker kept going BOOM when it had such high armour as to not be penetrable. It ends up that the zone PlaneSmoke, a non damage zone, one used to create visual effects, was allowing the bullet through and as explained above, after that it was BOOM.

This is why, even when I can create zones at will for the ships, the aircraft and the u-boats that it is still so difficult and very time consuming to make a great Ship Damage Mod.


As mentioned above, less than 8% of all depth charges attacks were effective. Of the figures there is however no break down of aircraft/escort and for escorts how long the successful attacks lasted and if the sinking were a result of the depth charges alone (even if it surfaced due to damage) or battery/oxygen forcing a u-boat to surface. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do to the way that damage is done in SHIII, I'm not sure a fix for your request would work by simply reducing the HP damage from aircraft attacks in the proper data files, due to how the zones and overflow damage works. It might though, but personally I just crash dive and turn when I hear a plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just here to sink ships!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Current GW Kaleun: Heinrich Werner (http://www.kylania.com/sh3/Heinrich%20Werner/Personnel%20File%20-%20Heinrich%20Werner.html)

Goose_Green
10-13-2006, 02:26 AM
If you look at the history of the U-Boat, the airplane was the U-Boat's worst nightmare, the modders have done a fantastic job of bringing that reealism factor to our screens - and as stated above we as commanders need to be ever fearful of the aircraft - so no more duels with fighters or bombers as it is not really realistic. A perfect straddle will end your boat faster than you will give the ALARM command.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Blecherinkoller
10-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Interesting information! Thanks!

I perhaps should mention that I to crashdive as fast as possible when spotting aircrafts. But one time I was jumped by a Sunderland, I crashdived, but got hit by machinegunfire. The hullintegrity went down to 47% and it destroyed my radio. That kind of damage could happen from depthcharges or bombs, but not from gunfire..Unless he was equipped with a Bofors automatic gun.

I think that this mod is by far the best of them all. I just thought it could be fun to do some modding on my own.

Speaking of depthcharges, I hope they choose to include the british 2000 pound depthcharge in their next release. Mark X, i think it was called. With a sinkrate of 15 meter per second..in a version that never was used. No fun to be near that in a sub.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cpt.Thorne
10-13-2006, 03:15 AM
Here the info on new DCs and launchers in NYGM

NYGM have finally attained the long thought impossible goal of having more than one depth charge! Now there are slow & fast sinking depth charges and even a ???big??? boy!

The new depth charges are...
British VII Heavy DC - 5mps sink rate
US Mark 6 - 3mps
US Mark 7 - 2.5mps sink rate & increased payload of 240/350 (default payload is 170/240)
US Mark 9 - 6.5mps sink rate & increased payload of 190/280 (default payload is 170/240)

The new depth charge launchers are...
Elco - this has 6 DC's per launcher. And yes, the Elco now has DC's
British DC rack for the VII Heavy DC
US DC rack for the Mark 6
US DC rack for the Mark 7
US DC rack for the Mark 9

Link to this thread in the subsim mod forum
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98528&...t=nygm+depth+charges (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98528&highlight=nygm+depth+charges)

Hope this helps.

Blecherinkoller
10-13-2006, 03:21 AM
It does!

Thanks.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Teddy Bar
10-13-2006, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blecherinkoller:
Interesting information! Thanks!

I perhaps should mention that I to crashdive as fast as possible when spotting aircrafts. But one time I was jumped by a Sunderland, I crashdived, but got hit by machinegunfire. The hullintegrity went down to 47% and it destroyed my radio. That kind of damage could happen from depthcharges or bombs, but not from gunfire..Unless he was equipped with a Bofors automatic gun.

I think that this mod is by far the best of them all. I just thought it could be fun to do some modding on my own.

Speaking of depthcharges, I hope they choose to include the british 2000 pound depthcharge in their next release. Mark X, i think it was called. With a sinkrate of 15 meter per second..in a version that never was used. No fun to be near that in a sub.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will investigate this with the beta testers. However I am not aware of a 'single' straff causing this amount of HI loss. I am open minded enough to ask the Beta Test Team to re-investigate this.


However, what I have found in my battles while improving the aircraft damage mod is that the battles are an exercise in evasion. While this is stating the obvious I will clarify and hopefully assist you to minimise damage. When you encounter aircraft attempt to put them at the right angle.

For fighters just prior to the fighter makes its diving attack at you turn into the aircraft. It is recommended that you set the AA to fight at short distances only.

For bombers the battle is a constant exercise in evasion. You are required to constantly be under a course change weaving left and right without pause. I find that when the aircraft attacks to turn into the aircraft and when it is retreating, well it???s all luck.

I have found with continual changes in course etc that I have, depending upon luck, been able to minimise my damage even after a battle that has had the bomber pass over more than 10 times. In a lot of battles lasting 10 passes or more I have come out with no damage or only 10%. However at other times I have come out with 30% + damage and many dead crews. It is skill and luck.


The problem with SHIII aircraft is that until now they have been nothing to fear. They bomb like big girls not able to hit the side of a barn and they have very little flying skills or ability to make a surprise attack.

The ???Hull Integrity??? loss from the machine guns/canons is battle damage from the hits that your u-boats receives. The more hits you receive the less structurally sound your u-boat may become.

The NYGM AI Fight Back Mod has no instances of bullets 'penetrating' the u-boats pressure hull. You will not have any bullet that will penetrate the pressure hull which as a result would make it impossible for you to submerge. This will never happen. If you are hit and receive damage that removes Hull Integrity then you will still be able to submerge. You may get some minor flooding at worst, but your pressure hull is never 'holed'.

For the most part few bullets will cause any loss of Hull Integrity, however it is a variable and as such each instance is unique.

In case some are not be aware, as far as Hull Integrity is concerned in its simplest form, the total remaining HP from the original HP value. To explain further, if the u-boat has 300HP @ 100% then when the u-boat has been damaged and has 200HP the u-boat will have a Hull Integrity of 66%.


BTW, I appreciate the open discussion on this matter and as mentioned, I will ask the Beta Test Team to run some tests.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers,

Teddy B??r

One of the stupidest things in game design is the lack of uncertainty given to the player

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madmaxr4
10-13-2006, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eoweth:
The NYGM team have done a ton of research into depth charges and their usage and NYGM 2.2's handling of it is pretty spot on.

A perfect straddle can destroy your boat, it just won't blow it up and isn't easy for a plane to acheive, especially if you're evading (which you should be!) Ships won't blow up much in NYGM, the damage system is such that things sink by flooding.

As uboat.net mentions (http://uboat.net/allies/technical/depth_charges.htm), "...most U-boats that were sunk by depth charges alone probably sank due to accumulated damage from repeated depth charge attacks. Many U-boats survived as many as 300 depth charges over a period of many hours." In order to make that historcal fact mesh with the nearly equal loss of U-boats to ships (264) and airplanes (250) aircraft damage was up'd.

This was also done to provide more of a challenge to the players. Planes are once again something to fear rather than toy with as they drop water splashes near you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Teddy had a great post on SubSim today about how depth charge damage works, and it includes a bit about aircraft damage as well:

From Teddy Bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The way that depth charges work in SHIII is as follows.

To remove Hull Integrity the depth charge must be closer than the minimum radius of splash damage. The ammunition has maximum hit points until this distance.

At distances greater than minimum radius no Hull Integrity is lost but zones i.e. compartments machinery etc can take damage if the HP is greater then the armour.

The depth charge HP continues to be reduced up until the maximum radius of splash damage.

The NYGM Depth charge has its minimum radius as 4.5 metres.

I would ask that you be sure of the distance as it is often deceptively farther away than it looks.

As for accuracy of the depth charges under NYGM, that probably comes as a result of the NYGM configuration having a minimum range at 300 metres. So once the escort is within 300 metres it looses ???contact??? with you.

Maybe we need to adjust this figure back a little to try and get a better in game result.


NYGM are aiming for sinking primarily through flooding. As for real world one hit outright kills I think that most will find that u-boats were a lot tougher than they realised. I think that the real world escorts were probably better at boxing the u-boat with a set of depth charges.

But as Ducimus correctly states, when a depth charge is very close there should be a high chance that there is a lot of machinery damage etc.

However in SHIII we have the issue that only a few items of machinery are modelled and due to the way that the DM is done it is not that great for having machinery damage and not having compartment flooding.

As for the dive planes & rudders etc we have no partial damage effects such as jamming. We have no bent drive shafts etc etc etc


From the Jurrgen Oesten interview by the SHIII Dev Team. In this interview he relates a how he was caught submerged by a British destroyer and as a result they received a large amount of damage to the Type II u-boat. The punch line is that a depth charge exploded so close to the u-boat that it dented the pressure hull and knocked the diesel engine off it mounts. This dent was seen from inside the u-boat.

Teddy Suhren's VII which when depth charged by a plane the 3 explosion was so close as to have an instance where 'a thin jet of flame shot from the closed hatch to the number 5 torpedo tube'... however there were no leakages to the pressure hull, Tube #5 was flooded though.
Hardegen in U-123 had a salvo of 6 depth charges dropped on/around the u-boat in water only 22 metres deep. The damage was listed as???
head valves were open i.e. compressed air escaping
tower hatch cracked open (but was closed)
the port engine was down
several tanks could not be blown
most of the batteries were out
bent drive shaft/s
hydrophones out
hydroplanes out

This is the major damage listed, but in all this, no mention of any flooding and there was certainly no flooding of any significance.


To explain the SHIII damage model better???

If we have 2 zones that are 3 x 3 metres which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ???hit??? from one side. The armour value on the 1st zone we have set so that only a depth charge of maximum HP will cause any damage and on the 2nd zone the armour value is setup so that it can be damaged by all depth charges.

For this exercise the depth charge will explode 10 metres from the zone and has a maximum radius of 15. Again, each zone can only be directly ???hit??? from the side that it is on. The maximum HP is 240, but the actual HP is 200.

Zone 1. A depth charge goes off next to the 1st zone that is of 200HP and as a result no damage is done.
Zone 2. A depth charge goes off next to the 2nd zone that is of 200HP and as a result damage is done.

Here is where the SHIII DM falls apart???

As the depth charge defeated the armour of the 2nd zone, the depth charge will now damage the 1st zone as it is within the 15 metre radius.

That is because each zones armour value is not calculated; only the value of the 1st zone encountered is.

A classic example of this was with the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod. After configuring it all up and being happy with it I could not for the life of me understand why the Fuel Bunker kept going BOOM when it had such high armour as to not be penetrable. It ends up that the zone PlaneSmoke, a non damage zone, one used to create visual effects, was allowing the bullet through and as explained above, after that it was BOOM.

This is why, even when I can create zones at will for the ships, the aircraft and the u-boats that it is still so difficult and very time consuming to make a great Ship Damage Mod.


As mentioned above, less than 8% of all depth charges attacks were effective. Of the figures there is however no break down of aircraft/escort and for escorts how long the successful attacks lasted and if the sinking were a result of the depth charges alone (even if it surfaced due to damage) or battery/oxygen forcing a u-boat to surface. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do to the way that damage is done in SHIII, I'm not sure a fix for your request would work by simply reducing the HP damage from aircraft attacks in the proper data files, due to how the zones and overflow damage works. It might though, but personally I just crash dive and turn when I hear a plane. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just here to sink ships! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does GW has the same sub damage model and depth charges model? - I found the same difference then the stock game and i'd like to:
1: put the old sub damege files (dont know what they are) or
2:find another mod similar to GW but without these realism in the sub damage and depth charges

Thanks in advance! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Eoweth
10-13-2006, 09:31 AM
GW 1.1a and NYGM 2.0 share the same damage model. NYGM 2.2 has had some improvements and GWX, the upcoming new version of GW, will have an upgraded (ie, more dangerous/"realistic"/deadly) damage model as well as I understand it.

To maintain the look and feel of GW but keep the ease of play of stock you might think about the "Kids Mod" for GW. It's a mod that a fellow forum member made for his family to play GW with while changing things to be more quicker paced and less difficult to sink things.

You can read about that mod here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=98296<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Current GW Kaleun: Heinrich Werner (http://www.kylania.com/sh3/Heinrich%20Werner/Personnel%20File%20-%20Heinrich%20Werner.html)