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mynameisroland
11-22-2007, 07:55 AM
S/L Evan Mackie, DSO, DFC (RNZAF) of No. 80 Squadron described his encounter with Fw 190Ds that occurred on 7 March 1945.

The Tempest could not compete with the Hun in a climb, but could outdive them with ease and compare favourably in the turn. One particular combat with a long-nosed FW 190, took place at 3,000 feet on a clear day, uninterrupted by either flak or other aircraft. Using + 11 boost and 3,750 rpm, the Tempest would almost get into a position to fire after about 3 complete turns, when the Hun would throttle back completely and disobey the golden rule of not changing bank, by stall turning the opposite way, thus almost meeting the Tempest head-on or at least at a big angle. Thus the Hun made a very elusive and formidable target, for executing this manoeuvre for the fourth time, he managed to take a big deflection shot at the Tempest as it went steaming past.

The Tempest makes a bigger orbit than the FW 190 but at about 220 mph it completes the actual turn quicker. After each of these stall turns, the chase would start afresh, the Hun making several unsuccessful attempts to dive away. After about 10 minutes of this, a pair of Tempests appeared on the scene and distracted the Hun's attention sufficiently for a short burst to be given which finished him off. 65

mynameisroland
11-22-2007, 07:55 AM
S/L Evan Mackie, DSO, DFC (RNZAF) of No. 80 Squadron described his encounter with Fw 190Ds that occurred on 7 March 1945.

The Tempest could not compete with the Hun in a climb, but could outdive them with ease and compare favourably in the turn. One particular combat with a long-nosed FW 190, took place at 3,000 feet on a clear day, uninterrupted by either flak or other aircraft. Using + 11 boost and 3,750 rpm, the Tempest would almost get into a position to fire after about 3 complete turns, when the Hun would throttle back completely and disobey the golden rule of not changing bank, by stall turning the opposite way, thus almost meeting the Tempest head-on or at least at a big angle. Thus the Hun made a very elusive and formidable target, for executing this manoeuvre for the fourth time, he managed to take a big deflection shot at the Tempest as it went steaming past.

The Tempest makes a bigger orbit than the FW 190 but at about 220 mph it completes the actual turn quicker. After each of these stall turns, the chase would start afresh, the Hun making several unsuccessful attempts to dive away. After about 10 minutes of this, a pair of Tempests appeared on the scene and distracted the Hun's attention sufficiently for a short burst to be given which finished him off. 65

Bremspropeller
11-22-2007, 07:58 AM
So?

Zoom2136
11-22-2007, 08:11 AM
These kind of pilot account really make me laught... for all we know the guy in the D9 only had a few hour on type.... he could of been the d.umbest pilot in the german airforce...

And this goes the same for German account... each time a "ACE" qualifies an type of aircraft based on his experience... he is mainly measuring HIS PERSONAL ABILITIES againts those of his ADVERSARIES... In this context lays the HUMAN factor... and not only machine against machine...

Also when figure from test pilots are used to determined which plane was better... I also take those with a grain of salt... as these planes where flown by expert pilots... not the average Joe...

In my opinion plane that as great TEST performance and his easy to fly (read easily mastered by the average Joe) will be a better plane that one that has BETTER TEST performance but require a level of skill in order to squeeze its potential out of it that is beyond the skill of the common Joe...

(Common Joe = skill of the average aviator)

Just my 2c

Wepps
11-22-2007, 08:36 AM
Those who say it's the man not the machine have a point, but tend to forget that the man is also limited by that machine.

Bremspropeller
11-22-2007, 09:06 AM
Yeah, but there's no limitation in a D-9/ Tempest match-up.

Both a/c are too much on par in pretty much any performance-category.

Itwas down to pilot-ability in that encounter.

K_Freddie
11-22-2007, 09:53 AM
It sounds like the pilot's abilities were on a par, but when it becomes 2 or more against 1, the result is inevitable, unless the pilots are grossly stupid.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

DmdSeeker
11-22-2007, 09:56 AM
I'd say that pilot's account of that type of engagement pretty well matches up what I see on Warclouds.

Not bad, that.

JtD
11-22-2007, 10:03 AM
Which power settings did the D-9 use?

MEGILE
11-22-2007, 10:06 AM
1.21 gigawatts

-HH-Quazi
11-22-2007, 10:10 AM
The RL pilot was probably flying a hacked model of the Tempest...eh?

anarchy52
11-22-2007, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
The RL pilot was probably flying a hacked model of the Tempest...eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, since il-2 tempest even at +9lb outturns D-9 effortlessly. RL Tempest is porked compared to Tempfire in game.

R988z
11-22-2007, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Yeah, but there's no limitation in a D-9/ Tempest match-up.

Both a/c are too much on par in pretty much any performance-category.

Itwas down to pilot-ability in that encounter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pilots seemed pretty even as well, at least while it was one on one anyway.

na85
11-22-2007, 10:55 AM
I'd tend to agree with the statement that the Dora pilot was a noob. 3000ft pretty low. What kind of pilot gets stuck down there flying a FW190?

Come in from above, make overhead attacks until the advantage is lost, then bug out.

mbfRoy
11-22-2007, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoom2136:
In my opinion plane that as great TEST performance and his easy to fly (read easily mastered by the average Joe) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So the spitfire was better than the 109! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

mbfRoy
11-22-2007, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
The RL pilot was probably flying a hacked model of the Tempest...eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed, since il-2 tempest even at +9lb outturns D-9 effortlessly. RL Tempest is porked compared to Tempfire in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed, we need a +11lb tempest and less noobs flying the D9!

La7_brook
11-22-2007, 11:02 AM
Krl heinz ossenkop , compared with the tempest, dora d9 , was better in the climb and in turns ,had the same or lower level speed depending on its fit and finish, had a lower diving speed , thunderbolt / dora had a greater level and climbing speed , had a better turning ability and was inferior past all hope in diving speed

Zoom2136
11-22-2007, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Yeah, but there's no limitation in a D-9/ Tempest match-up.

Both a/c are too much on par in pretty much any performance-category.

Itwas down to pilot-ability in that encounter. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you flown each type...

Zoom2136
11-22-2007, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
Krl heinz ossenkop , compared with the tempest, dora d9 , was better in the climb and in turns ,had the same or lower level speed depending on its fit and finish, had a lower diving speed , thunderbolt / dora had a greater level and climbing speed , had a better turning ability and was inferior past all hope in diving speed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like I said each pilot tends to evaluate the plane based on his own personnal experience... so each pilot account includes the evaluation of the pilot as well as that of the plane when he states that such and such a plane was better at this or that... Even expert pilot on one type... could be wrong when evulating another type... as he could not be 100% familiar with the type he his assessing...

And I don't think that the pilot of the D-9 was a "n.o.o.b." for being at 3000 feet... it could of been his assign patrol altitude or he could have had some other valid reason for being there... Not all order received in war time are logical...

I'm just making a general observation... not saying that no pilot account can be considered as being accurate... only that they could be biased... due to the human factor involve...

Just look in this sim... according to Oleg the AI follows the same rules as us... but the generally outperform our planes (they are faster, etc...). As some pilot here concluded... the A.I. cheats and thus have superior planes.... but could it be that they are actually squeezing 100% of the performance out of their planes... and we only say 85%... hence the human factor.... Just my 2c

RegRag1977
11-22-2007, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoom2136:
These kind of pilot account really make me laught... for all we know the guy in the D9 only had a few hour on type.... he could of been the d.umbest pilot in the german airforce...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the D9 pilot was a dumb or a noob. In fact he did well against an ace (remember that the "ace" could not do a thing during ten min and until 2 other Tempests helped and attacked the D9.

Fact: He was downed and there's nothing to say, 3 Hawkers will always win against a single D9.

But,

During ten minutes the said ace could do nothing against the vastly inferior D9, and only could down him after two mates came and help

Ah, ah, ah... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

All the explaination about speed and orbit is pure gold http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif . The magic turn advantage is available only after 10 minutes and the help of two other fighters.

My God the Tempest was so vastly superior http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

RegRag1977
11-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Tempfire turners, why fly when the only thing you need is this

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/RegRag1977/carroussel_1964052-lg.jpg

La7_brook
11-22-2007, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoom2136:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
Krl heinz ossenkop , compared with the tempest, dora d9 , was better in the climb and in turns ,had the same or lower level speed depending on its fit and finish, had a lower diving speed , thunderbolt / dora had a greater level and climbing speed , had a better turning ability and was inferior past all hope in diving speed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like I said each pilot tends to evaluate the plane based on his own personnal experience... so each pilot account includes the evaluation of the pilot as well as that of the plane when he states that such and such a plane was better at this or that... Even expert pilot on one type... could be wrong when evulating another type... as he could not be 100% familiar with the type he his assessing...

And I don't think that the pilot of the D-9 was a "n.o.o.b." for being at 3000 feet... it could of been his assign patrol altitude or he could have had some other valid reason for being there... Not all order received in war time are logical...

I'm just making a general observation... not saying that no pilot account can be considered as being accurate... only that they could be biased... due to the human factor involve...

Just look in this sim... according to Oleg the AI follows the same rules as us... but the generally outperform our planes (they are faster, etc...). As some pilot here concluded... the A.I. cheats and thus have superior planes.... but could it be that they are actually squeezing 100% of the performance out of their planes... and we only say 85%... hence the human factor.... Just my 2c </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Agree thats y i posted , as u can see when u ask the other side about it. they tell u the other side of the story ,sure both pilots were right too , the pilot i quoted felt that after 5 months of fighting the tempest he could out turn them ,was this because he better ?was the plane better ? was the other pilot weaker ? or was he lucky ?

La7_brook
11-22-2007, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoom2136:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by La7_brook:
Krl heinz ossenkop , compared with the tempest, dora d9 , was better in the climb and in turns ,had the same or lower level speed depending on its fit and finish, had a lower diving speed , thunderbolt / dora had a greater level and climbing speed , had a better turning ability and was inferior past all hope in diving speed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just like I said each pilot tends to evaluate the plane based on his own personnal experience... so each pilot account includes the evaluation of the pilot as well as that of the plane when he states that such and such a plane was better at this or that... Even expert pilot on one type... could be wrong when evulating another type... as he could not be 100% familiar with the type he his assessing...

And I don't think that the pilot of the D-9 was a "n.o.o.b." for being at 3000 feet... it could of been his assign patrol altitude or he could have had some other valid reason for being there... Not all order received in war time are logical...

I'm just making a general observation... not saying that no pilot account can be considered as being accurate... only that they could be biased... due to the human factor involve...

Just look in this sim... according to Oleg the AI follows the same rules as us... but the generally outperform our planes (they are faster, etc...). As some pilot here concluded... the A.I. cheats and thus have superior planes.... but could it be that they are actually squeezing 100% of the performance out of their planes... and we only say 85%... hence the human factor.... Just my 2c </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Agree thats y i posted , as u can see when u ask the other side about it. they tell u the other side of the story ,sure both pilots were right too , the pilot i quoted felt that after 5 months of fighting the tempest he could out turn them ,was this because he better ?was the plane better ? was the other pilot weaker ? or was he lucky ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> In game i think the Anton turns better then the Dora because it rolls better and i roll into my turns so yes its how each pilot users what he got and knows ,same as in RL when one reads these storys

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 03:53 AM
I posted this because many people here take it as gospel that the D9 could out turn the Tempest V. This pilots comment clearly states that after 3 turns the Tempest gained enough to force the D9 pilot to break off his turn and take an evasive manuver. Why did RAF pilots feel their Tempests could out turn Fw 190s? They did a pretty good job in combat against 109s and 190s and turning against 190s in particular was part of their tactics.

The Tempest we have ingame is listed in SFS files as being the 2400 HP model despite being slower than that model perhaps the benefit of its extra performance is felt in turn?

What was the specific D9 model ? Who knows, but I guess it wouldnt be the D9 44 model we have in IL2 - you know the 450 mph plus one in perfect condition http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Flight_boy1990
11-23-2007, 04:15 AM
Again the same Allied whining...
Hey i use to see only whinning for the turns of P-51,but now i see whinning about the Tempest...
DAANNG!All the allied A/C's could out-turn every german plane.How is this possilbe???
Here we have guys that believe that P-51 outturn the 109.Now we have guy who believe that the Tempest is better than the Dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .
I still can't imagine how Erich Hartmann menaged to shot down 352 enemy planes in such baracks as 109 ...AAAhahahahaha....
This topic is sooooo dump!
Ofcourse that the Dora better in the turns than the Tempest!

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 04:22 AM
Lol not much has changed here. ******s still rule the roost.

Last time I checked the P51 COULD out ZOOM climb the Bf 109 and the Tempest COULD out turn the Fw 190 in IL2.

I dont see any whining in this thread except the reactionary Blue whiners posts.

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 04:36 AM
+1

Thanks for sharing this interesting account.

Brain32
11-23-2007, 04:42 AM
I'm not claiming either was better in a turn irl(+11 and D9) however in-game +9 kicks everything German in a turn big time, even the late monster power 109's that were 2tons lighter than it. IRL RAE tests described Tempest +9 turn vs captured Fw190A as nothing to choose between the two to say that this is not the case in game, would be a big understatement.
I'm a big fan of the Tempest actually, however in-game situation is IMO pretty funny, instead of great speed(+11) and excellent bubble canopy rearward visibility, we got one of the best turnfighters on WF, with Corsair-like rear view and untypical(low) engine rating for the type lol

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:
Again the same Allied whining...
Hey i use to see only whinning for the turns of P-51,but now i see whinning about the Tempest...
DAANNG!All the allied A/C's could out-turn every german plane.How is this possilbe???
Here we have guys that believe that P-51 outturn the 109.Now we have guy who believe that the Tempest is better than the Dora http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .
I still can't imagine how Erich Hartmann menaged to shot down 352 enemy planes in such baracks as 109 ...AAAhahahahaha....
This topic is sooooo dump!
Ofcourse that the Dora better in the turns than the Tempest! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the Tempest was definatly better then the Dora because the Tempest was exactly the aircraft the RAF needed and it came in exactly the right time to do the job.
In exactly the same way was the Hundrednine a better aircraft then the Spit, La5 and P-51 - because it was able to compete with all of them and therefor was exactly the aircraft the Luftwaffe needed during the war.
See the logic?

It's childish to suppose that Boemher started this thread to cherish Allied superiority - he started it to complete a part of the bigger picture the most of us forum users like to see.
Maybe it's because you are a relativly young user here; we ( the oldtimers ) are just tired to listen to the same cr@pola time and time again.

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said it once and I will repeat it again:
Every Hundrednine jock getting outturned by anything Allied other then the Spit suXXooRRs badly in flying teh Messer.

mbfRoy
11-23-2007, 05:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said it once and I will repeat it again:
Every Hundrednine jock getting outturned by anything Allied other then the Spit suXXooRRs badly in flying teh Messer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
agreed!

JG4_Helofly
11-23-2007, 05:21 AM
Pilot storys are not very reliable sources as most people probably know. It would have been better to post a comparativ test. There is such a test ( Brain already posted it ) who tells us that the Tempest +9 was about as good as a FW190A in tight turns.

MEGILE
11-23-2007, 05:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:

Ofcourse that the Dora better in the turns than the Tempest! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you prove that statement, you will get a cookie.

Kurfurst__
11-23-2007, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
I posted this because many people here take it as gospel that the D9 could out turn the Tempest V. This pilots comment clearly states that after 3 turns the Tempest gained enough to force the D9 pilot to break off his turn and take an evasive manuver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, and what do you make out of pilot stories clearly stating the exact opposite..?
Caldwell`s JG 26 diuary has one such example.
Similiarly, what do you make out of LW pilots noting they could 'always out turn' Spitfires in the BoB...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IMHO the only gospel here is thatpeople like to concentrate on the 'fitting' quotes very selectively, ie. the ones they like better and ignore the others. You can always find the pilot quote you`d like believe.

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__: You can always find the pilot quote you`d like believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, can I use this as a quote from you Kufurst in my sig?

The pilot quote I posted is meant to challenge peoples preconceived views of the subject. I have read many posters opinions on the topic and they seem to firmly believe that the D9 could out turn the Tempest - based on what: Pilots opinions? A dodgy 44 test between a 9lb Tempest and an A5? a dodgy post war test ? different Wing profiles ?

What gives you conclusive proof? The pilots comment I posted is to toss in to that argument and add a little bit of context to the universal claim that the D9 was a better turner than the Tempest.

Y0RGO
11-23-2007, 07:21 AM
This is n00b?

This Roland not ask change only post for info, yes? Now we see team plue palyer is come from under wood trims to offer on angri comments, yes?

N00b this is?

Brain32
11-23-2007, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said it once and I will repeat it again:
Every Hundrednine jock getting outturned by anything Allied other then the Spit suXXooRRs badly in flying teh Messer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe but if 409 brings new code protection you can forget about that one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

EiZ0N
11-23-2007, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__: You can always find the pilot quote you`d like believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, can I use this as a quote from you Kufurst in my sig?

The pilot quote I posted is meant to challenge peoples preconceived views of the subject. I have read many posters opinions on the topic and they seem to firmly believe that the D9 could out turn the Tempest - based on what: Pilots opinions? A dodgy 44 test between a 9lb Tempest and an A5? a dodgy post war test ? different Wing profiles ?

What gives you conclusive proof? The pilots comment I posted is to toss in to that argument and add a little bit of context to the universal claim that the D9 was a better turner than the Tempest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the irony is that all the blue-whiners that cropped up in this thread came to accuse you of claiming such and such, and argue that pilot accounts are irrelevant etc, but then some of the same people are saying "of COURSE such and such was better than such and such". Exactly what are these people, i.e. "Flight_boy" basing these statements on then?

They have flown both types?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Seems to me like there's not conclusive evidence for anything, which is clearly the point of the thread starter.

Bremspropeller
11-23-2007, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">different Wing profiles ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doras retained the Anton's wings as a whole.
That includes airfoils.

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 08:04 AM
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109.

BaronUnderpants
11-23-2007, 08:11 AM
Red flier post neg. "facts" about blue ac = a ok.

Blue flier telling him to get real = whiner.

Blue flier posting neg. "facts" about red ac = whiner.

Blue flier posting "facts" debunking red "fact" = liar/whiner.


Think i see a pattern here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif


P.S. "ALMOST in firing position after 3 complete turns and 4 evasive manouvers" by the D9 and the Tempest still didnt get a clean shot. Sure doesnt sound like "beter turnrate" either way to me.


Pretty even machup it seems.

JtD
11-23-2007, 08:15 AM
Can whiners and offenders please leave? Tempest and Fw are just to cool to serve for such BS.

Imho, there should be very little to choose between the D-9 and the Tempest. Turnwise the D-9 shouldn't be better than a late A. Put's them all in the same league.

Btw, three turns is a lot of time. And if the D-9 still managed to meet the Tempest head on after changing course, the gains were pretty small.

JtD
11-23-2007, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Red flier post neg. "facts" about blue ac = a ok.

Blue flier telling him to get real = whiner.

Blue flier posting neg. "facts" about red ac = whiner.

Blue flier posting "facts" debunking red "fact" = liar/whiner.


Think i see a pattern here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, me too. You can think only in red or blue terms.

You also failed to follow this topic. Not enough to participate here.

JtD
11-23-2007, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
1.21 gigawatts </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're off by a factor of 1000.

BaronUnderpants
11-23-2007, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Red flier post neg. "facts" about blue ac = a ok.

Blue flier telling him to get real = whiner.

Blue flier posting neg. "facts" about red ac = whiner.

Blue flier posting "facts" debunking red "fact" = liar/whiner.


Think i see a pattern here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, me too. You can think only in red or blue terms.

You also failed to follow this topic. Not enough to participate here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sure, keep thinking ANY debate in here is NOT red vs blue....and it may even come true one day. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

P.S. Try reading my intire post next time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 08:22 AM
I do think that the D9 was a better angles fighter then the late Antons; simply because of reduced drag.
Doesn't make it turn tighter or faster, but for shure improves on acceleration and energy retention.
Dora pilots commented into this direction aswell.

Ingame the Dora has about a second over the A8 in turntime - seems exeptable to me.

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I for one like to think that it is that way - otherwise this place had no value.
People who make the cognitive descision what they want to believe and carry it into public are children; not worthy to be taken seriously or their opinions treated as valuable.
I refrain to see that in the majority of members here.

Brain32
11-23-2007, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun...

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">different Wing profiles ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doras retained the Anton's wings as a whole.
That includes airfoils. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes thats correct, I was refering to the difference between the two aircraft - the D9 and the Tempest.

Because going by powerloading and wing loading the Tempest has the advantage but taking the laminar flow wing in to account the D9 has the advantage.

HuninMunin
11-23-2007, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah..ok.
What about Sunday evening around 7?

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

recently I have had my *** handed to me twice by a well flown Bf 109(same pilot). Both times I got suckered in to a dogfight. Both times I made the mistake of thinking " just one more turn and then I'll break off".

I think the pilots comment is interesting because he talks about the 11lb Tempest specifically. How much extra performance would 200 hp with no added weight give the Tempest in a turn?

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 08:45 AM
As someone who rarely flys either type, I find them far more alike in game than they are different. Neither are stellar in the turn, but both aircraft have advantages that can be used to be successful in virtual combat, depending on altitude. Up high it's no contest as the D9 is far superior. However, in the typical usage of the Tempest online as a ground pounder things are more even. The D9 driver must come down to engage the Tempests, simple fact. Hence I try to ingress/egress the target as low as possible, whcih does not give the D9 enough room to recover from a high speed diving pass in most cases. Only the very best virtual pilots will pull this off. the rest will be forced to come down and play my game. And as I have a wingman the advantage is ours.

Tactics beat hardware.

Every time.

PikeBishop
11-23-2007, 08:47 AM
Dear All,
The data clearly shows that the Fw190D had a wing loading which was about 1.0lb/sq Ft more than the Tempest. (39.7lbs/sq ft v 37 lbs/sq ft) The power loading was 4.51 lb/hp for the Fw v 4.79 lb/hp for the tempest. What that says is that the tempest had a very slight edge on turn rate but the Fw had a considerable advantage in acceleration and/or climb rate at sea level as the profile drag was somewhat higher for the Tempest. So in one case the Fw has the advantage and the difference in the turn rate is slight. I don't know what they are both like ingame because I don't fly either type, but all in all I prefer to believe what the figures tell me and not anecdotal evidence from what a pilot "thinks" is happening. Roll rate is the only factor that might make a real difference and I think the Fw has an edge there too. This is apart from the 'novice' idea and how much fuel/ammo he was carrying.
Best regards,
SLP.

Klemm.co
11-23-2007, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Dear All,
The data clearly shows that the Fw190D had a wing loading which was about 1.0lb/sq Ft more than the Tempest. (39.7lbs/sq ft v 37 lbs/sq ft) The power loading was 4.51 lb/hp for the Fw v 4.79 lb/hp for the tempest. What that says is that the tempest had a very slight edge on turn rate but the Fw had a considerable advantage in acceleration and/or climb rate at sea level as the profile drag was somewhat higher for the Tempest. So in one case the Fw has the advantage and the difference in the turn rate is slight. I don't know what they are both like ingame because I don't fly either type, but all in all I prefer to believe what the figures tell me and not anecdotal evidence from what a pilot "thinks" is happening. Roll rate is the only factor that might make a real difference and I think the Fw has an edge there too. This is apart from the 'novice' idea and how much fuel/ammo he was carrying.
Best regards,
SLP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You forgot to include the wing's airfoil in your calcualtion. Ever heard of a laminar flow airfoil? There the curve, wich normally is placed on the very front of the airfoil, is moved backwards as far as possible, while still providing enough lift. Because of that it has less lift than a similar wing with the same dimensions, unlike a more common airfoil, like those found on the Hurricane or 109 for example.

So if you pull back on the stick in an aircraft thus equipped, the wings will 1.) provide less lift than on normal aircraft and 2.) the airflow will detatch earlier, which leads to a stall and in those aircraft very quickly to a spin.

And since you place the Tempest and 190 right next to each other in most terms of mattering performance, my guess based on your conclusion is that the 190 will still be a better turnfighter, based of the small turning differences.

All I want to say is: wing area and powerloading is not everything. It can really just give you a rough guess on relative performance, but in this case the important differences are too big IMO.

Von_Rat
11-23-2007, 10:15 AM
Tempfire turners, why fly when the only thing you need is this.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________


i prefer the term Turnpest.

Bremspropeller
11-23-2007, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Because going by powerloading and wing loading the Tempest has the advantage but taking the laminar flow wing in to account the D9 has the advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The word "advantage" has to be taken with a grain of salt.
The Temp and Dora were too close to each other to speak of "advantages" or "edges".
The only real significant difference was the 190's better roll.

gkll
11-23-2007, 10:40 AM
I get quite different numbers wingloading and T/W - Tempest11 ~20% &lt;better&gt; wingloading and ~10% &lt;worse&gt; powerloading... using 'dogfight weight' which is ~fuel to fly to 20000 ft, fight and land. Equalizes range differences between aircraft (long ranged aircraft get hooped in il2compare for eg, they are always 'fat' with fuel). Added 350 kg to 190d and 400 to Tempest empty weights.

So with that much improvement in wingloading the il2compare graphs make sense, take a look. "laminar flow" is not going to rebalance that large a difference in wingload

mynameisroland
11-23-2007, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Because going by powerloading and wing loading the Tempest has the advantage but taking the laminar flow wing in to account the D9 has the advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The word "advantage" has to be taken with a grain of salt.
The Temp and Dora were too close to each other to speak of "advantages" or "edges".
The only real significant difference was the 190's better roll. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tempest's speed advantage at low altitude
Tempest's dive advantage at all altitudes
Tempest's firepower advantage

In all these areas the Tempest holds as big an edge as the Fw 190 does in roll rate - even there the Fw 190's advantage becomes a disadvantage at high speeds.

See another misconception - The Fw 190 has a better roll rate in General, above 350 mph I thought the Tempest held the advantage?

RegRag1977
11-23-2007, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Red flier post neg. "facts" about blue ac = a ok.

Blue flier telling him to get real = whiner.

Blue flier posting neg. "facts" about red ac = whiner.

Blue flier posting "facts" debunking red "fact" = liar/whiner.


Think i see a pattern here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif


P.S. "ALMOST in firing position after 3 complete turns and 4 evasive manouvers" by the D9 and the Tempest still didnt get a clean shot. Sure doesnt sound like "beter turnrate" either way to me.


Pretty even machup it seems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Flight_boy1990
11-23-2007, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:

Ofcourse that the Dora better in the turns than the Tempest! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you prove that statement, you will get a cookie. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,you'd better really send me this cookie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .Here it is dude.Me and a squad mate made an experiments with the Tempest and D-9.
In here i flew the Dora:
http://files.filefront.com/Experiment+1ntrk/;9107236;/fileinfo.html
Here,i flew the Tempest:
http://files.filefront.com/Experiment+2ntrk/;9107240;/fileinfo.html

It's clearly visible dude.Well piloted Dora will NAIL the Tempest.
With closed radiators the Dora can mach the Tempest,even it is better in the turns!

Xiolablu3
11-23-2007, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
I'd tend to agree with the statement that the Dora pilot was a noob. 3000ft pretty low. What kind of pilot gets stuck down there flying a FW190?

Come in from above, make overhead attacks until the advantage is lost, then bug out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read it again, he COULDNT bug out because the Tempest dived faster than him.

He tried to dive away many times.

Insuber
11-23-2007, 12:24 PM
So actually the Tempest and Dora can make a turn ?

Good to know,
Insuber

ElAurens
11-23-2007, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Insuber:
So actually the Tempest and Dora can make a turn ?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... in their own way I guess. Personally I think both of them fly like trucks. Fast trucks mind you, but trucks none the less.

VW-IceFire
11-23-2007, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
I'd tend to agree with the statement that the Dora pilot was a noob. 3000ft pretty low. What kind of pilot gets stuck down there flying a FW190?

Come in from above, make overhead attacks until the advantage is lost, then bug out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
During the tactical war in North Western Germany where the FW190D-9s and Tempests clashed the most there was allegedly some orders that came down to squadrons in that area to fly low level patrols. I can't remember the altitude but it was probably near the 3000 feet described. Some flight leaders would fly higher knowing that the order was absolute madness but they were often caught low and pounced on by all manners of Allied fighters.

The order was probably issued so as to protect the ground troops from low flying tactical aircraft like the Typhoons rather than for personal defense against higher flying aircraft. Orders probably came from people who had no clue.

As for turns...its all so very dependent. The Tempest has a fantastic initial turn which then slowly dissipates in advantage so the Tempest can make that nice little sharp turn and get angle on someone but its rarely out turning anything. Both planes turn by dumping massive amounts of energy/speed in exchange for just a brief moment on target. What makes the Tempest such a luxury in such a move is that the target is easily sighted below the nose and hit from a greater deflection angle while the FW190 in the same situation is usually shooting blind.

Bremspropeller
11-23-2007, 04:58 PM
Firepower-wise, they're on par, since the Dora features Minengeschoss-rounds.

The Dora dives faster than the Anton. Tests were never made =&gt; no evaluated "advantage" of the Temp.

PikeBishop
11-24-2007, 10:20 AM
Dear Klemm.co,
Yes you are correct, I did leave that part of the calculation out. But only because that factor alters the resulting stall speed by very little and is very close to 1.....I think the Shiden Kai had the automatic flaps that made a really big difference to the stall speed but that is a special case. Really, if you have a quote of the wheels up flaps up stall speed then you can accurately work out the minimum turn radius for any given speed. The power loading is an indicator of whether or not that minimum turn radius can be maintained for a given time period, or whether it is only instantaneous. In this particular comparison I think there is very little difference in the turn rate but quite a difference in the ability to hold a turn or accelerate away or climb, in the Fw's favour.
Best regards,
SLP.

Schwarz.13
11-24-2007, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah..ok.
What about Sunday evening around 7? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Handbags at <STRIKE>dawn</STRIKE> dusk! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Regardless of who wins - can we see tracks please???

mbfRoy
11-25-2007, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah..ok.
What about Sunday evening around 7? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Handbags at <STRIKE>dawn</STRIKE> dusk! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Regardless of who wins - can we see tracks please??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Schwarz.13
11-26-2007, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mbfRoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
@ Brain
I hope that you didn't just accuse me of cheating.

Anyway - we can easily start a quick match with you flying any allied warbird exept the Spit and me in the 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not although it was a clumsy statement. My point is that you can't use 109's(late ones,G6AS_G10_G14_K4) turn as defensive manouver against nearly anything allied. As for the match, we can still have it, I use same name on HL(PFS_Brain32) so drop me a PM and we can have some fun... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah..ok.
What about Sunday evening around 7? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Handbags at <STRIKE>dawn</STRIKE> dusk! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Regardless of who wins - can we see tracks please??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So come on! - what plane did Brain32 choose? Good knifefight? Who won? Are you buddies now or arch-enemies?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

You agreed to a duel publically so let the hungry mob see the outcome! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Brain32
11-26-2007, 10:43 AM
Well you know Hunnin and me kinda have lives outside il2 so we had to delay it. And btw, why would we be enemies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif we are not 7 years old and he didn't take my toy truck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Schwarz.13
11-26-2007, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:why would we be enemies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't serious!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif