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View Full Version : Merlin in a Bf109? Merlin boost?



Blutarski2004
02-14-2005, 02:55 PM
Here's a cute little tidbit I ran across recently -

Quoting Mr A G Elliott, of Rolls-Royce Ltd, speaking at a 1946 gathering of the Royal Aeronautical Society:

QUOTE -
An attempt had been made to put a Merlin engine into one of those German aircraft (captured Bf109s). The engine would go in quite easily and they had wanted to fly the machine fitted with that engine for information, but somehow or other the project was dropped.
- UNQUOTE


Same gentleman talking about boost levels:

QUOTE -
... there were still further developments ahead. Incidentally, with the improved fuels available, the boost on the engine could have been increased beyond the figure ultimately used. They had reache 25 lb and even 30 lb boost, and had actually run an engine at 45 lb boost, using the very high octane fuels.
- UNQUOTE

Blutarski2004
02-14-2005, 02:55 PM
Here's a cute little tidbit I ran across recently -

Quoting Mr A G Elliott, of Rolls-Royce Ltd, speaking at a 1946 gathering of the Royal Aeronautical Society:

QUOTE -
An attempt had been made to put a Merlin engine into one of those German aircraft (captured Bf109s). The engine would go in quite easily and they had wanted to fly the machine fitted with that engine for information, but somehow or other the project was dropped.
- UNQUOTE


Same gentleman talking about boost levels:

QUOTE -
... there were still further developments ahead. Incidentally, with the improved fuels available, the boost on the engine could have been increased beyond the figure ultimately used. They had reache 25 lb and even 30 lb boost, and had actually run an engine at 45 lb boost, using the very high octane fuels.
- UNQUOTE

p1ngu666
02-14-2005, 03:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif @ 45lb boost

supercharger of DOOM.

Kurfurst__
02-14-2005, 04:37 PM
The Merlin and the DB 60x were of very similiar weights and dimensions. In fact, the 109G airframes the spanish acquired were fitted with single stage Merlins, giving them quite an ugly cowling (merlin being normal Vee engine unlike the DB).

But 45 lbs/sq.inch seeems way way more than the engine could ever sustain, unless it`s absolute pressure, and not '+45', ie. above SL pressure as usual with the british.

p1ngu666
02-14-2005, 04:42 PM
45 would be like 4ata wouldnt it?

BBB_Hyperion
02-14-2005, 04:48 PM
Does someone understand the british boost scale system i mean not that table i mean a unit conversion factor . HG and ATA works fine but british system seems little more tricky.

hop2002
02-14-2005, 05:06 PM
British boost is given in lbs (per square inch).

1 lbs = 2.036 inches of mercury.

However, German and American systems use absolute pressure, British is given as the value above sea level pressure.

So to convert British figures to American, first add 14.7 lbs (approx sea level pressure), then multiply by 2.036

Eg 18 lbs boost = (18 lbs + 14.7 lbs) x 2.036
18 lbs = 66.6 inches of mercury

BBB_Hyperion
02-14-2005, 09:19 PM
So 1 lbs per square inch = (1 lbs+ 14.7 lbs)*2.036 = 31.9652 HG = 31.9652 inches of mercury / 28.968919 = 1.1034 bar / 0.980665 = 1.125 ATA ?

Is there any reason for this complex british solution ?

I think i will put it on 2nd place for remarkable
british inventions that one comes right after driving on the wrong roadside http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thx for the info Hop2002 .

Is that the value you get 14.7 from =>
101325 Pa = 14.6959488 pound-force/square inch for ISA ?

p1ngu666
02-14-2005, 10:09 PM
its imperial, its meant tobe odd http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ImpStarDuece
02-14-2005, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:

I think i will put it on 2nd place for remarkable
british inventions that one comes right after driving on the wrong roadside http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have the answer to that little mystery. Unless someone can prove me wrong, that is. ISlands, like Britain, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, ect all drive on the left side of the road. Thoes unlucky enough to be conitinent bound; America, Europe, ect, seem to drive on the right side of the road. Now, can anone tell me why?

P.S. the Phillipenes and a lot of the 'post-colonial' accquisitions of certain nations doesn't count, they will just adjust to 'mother country' standards.

Foo.bar
02-14-2005, 10:32 PM
109 with a merlin engine is one of the most ugly planes i have ever seen.

Cragger
02-15-2005, 03:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:

I think i will put it on 2nd place for remarkable
british inventions that one comes right after driving on the wrong roadside http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have the answer to that little mystery. Unless someone can prove me wrong, that is. ISlands, like Britain, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, ect all drive on the left side of the road. Thoes unlucky enough to be conitinent bound; America, Europe, ect, seem to drive on the right side of the road. Now, can anone tell me why?

P.S. the Phillipenes and a lot of the 'post-colonial' accquisitions of certain nations doesn't count, they will just adjust to 'mother country' standards. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Small correction, Australia is a Continent. And two of your three examples where former British colonies. As for Japan Its alittle different in that the driver is on the right hand side of the vehicle instead of the left.

ImpStarDuece
02-15-2005, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cragger:


Small correction, Australia is a Continent. And two of your three examples where former British colonies. As for Japan Its alittle different in that the driver is on the right hand side of the vehicle instead of the left. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do. That is crooect. What do the rest of the world do then? Better go start a mailing campaign to all those Aussies, Brits and Kiwis who have the drivers side on the right as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Those who use the left hand side of the road have the driver on right hand side. Being an Australian living in Japan I should probably know.

And Australia IS a continent. The Island Continent.

Oh and i did specify post colonial acquisitions. Australia and New Zealand were most definatley colonial era acquisitions.

Chuck_Older
02-15-2005, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The Merlin and the DB 60x were of very similiar weights and dimensions. In fact, the 109G airframes the spanish acquired were fitted with single stage Merlins, giving them quite an ugly cowling <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
License built Bf-109G-2 Hispano "Buchons". Didn't fly until 1947 by my recollection http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just a small point of interest

Luring2004
02-15-2005, 06:54 AM
Germans did it the other way around. The planted a DB605 ina Spit IX(I think it was). Looked as ugly as 109 with Merlin.
http://www.dp9.com/fusion/pics/SpitfireDB605.jpg

Skarphol
02-15-2005, 06:57 AM
Here is the Spit:
http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/pages/dbspit_1.php

Think it has been posted here before, but...

Skarphol

Chuck_Older
02-15-2005, 07:33 AM
And of course, if you go all the way back, the first Bf109 had a Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

73GIAP_Milan
02-15-2005, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Foo.bar:
109 with a merlin engine is one of the most ugly planes i have ever seen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, 109's like mentioned above - the Spanish Ha1109 Buchon look quite good

Also the Merlin equipped He111's like seen in the movie Battle of Britain -Their Finest Hour look quite good, i've got pics of one of them..
(might post those sometime on request)

"ugly" is more the term for the Jumo equipped post-war 109's in my opinion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-15-2005, 09:10 AM
Ha-112 Buchon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

73GIAP_Milan
02-15-2005, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Ha-112 Buchon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

aww shucks, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif i made a typo...

Ha112 Buchon it is indeed..

mynameisroland
02-15-2005, 12:43 PM
I heard that in Britain we drive on the left due to the fact that in medieval times it was thought important that carriage drivers had their right hand free to shoot at Brigands who may try to rob them. Hence they could grab the reigns with their left hand and shoot a pistol with their right without having to reach across themselves.

Sounds pretty genious doesnt it&gt;?

-HH-Dubbo
02-15-2005, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
.... Britain, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, ect all drive on the left side of the road. Thoes unlucky enough to be conitinent bound; America, Europe, ect, seem to drive on the right side of the road. Now, can anone tell me why? ............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I moved to Canada I got asked that question quite a lot....but I had no answer. So I looked into it.

It seems that somewhere between the days of yore and yesteryear, the people of the olden days would ride around in horse-drawn carts. If the carts were used by higher society they were called carriages. Within the higher society there was a certain protocol to riding in a carriage. (One rode.....they had a driver to drive)For some reason one always entered the RHS of the carriage (never found out why....ships loaded from the left)and in the case of a couple climbing aboard, the female would always get on first and move across to sit on the far side, the left, of the carriage. Protocol forbade her from talking to the driver who would sit on the RHS of the drivers seat so that he could take his directions from the passenger behind him....the man, who would sit there if riding alone, and would also end up there if there were women on board.

And off the carriage would go. Problem though. You have a carriage travelling down the RHS of the street with the driver sitting on the curbside, with a whip. Could you imagine walking down the street and having yourself whipped by some carraige driver on his way past?

"Sorry Guv'na"

So.....to get around this, the carriage would leave the "curb" and cross to the other side of the road...the RHS which solved all the problems.....except that they were crossing oncoming "traffic" everytime they pulled up or took off.

To solve this problem some wag came up with the idea to allow the man to enter the carriage first so that the driver could sit on the LHS of the carriage. The issue of crossing traffic and whipping pedestrians became a thing of the past....

But there was another way of dealing with the problem. Given that the question of letting the ladies climb aboard first was no longer an issue, in England they decided to leave the driver where he was, board from the other side (the same side as the ships) and therefore be on the correct side of the road when pulling away. And the colonies followed suit...most of 'em.

As for shooting at Brigands and stuff and having hands free, it wouldn't really matter where you sat as a driver because you can always switch the reins to the other hand regardless, right?

As for which is better....I feel that given most people are naturally right-handed, it makes more sense to have the steering wheel on the RHS of the car, particullarly if the car is a manual/standard. A lot easier to steer single-handedly with your right hand than it is with your left.

Taylortony
02-15-2005, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mynameisroland:
I heard that in Britain we drive on the left due to the fact that in medieval times it was thought important that carriage drivers had their right hand free to shoot at Brigands who may try to rob them. Hence they could grab the reigns with their left hand and shoot a pistol with their right without having to reach across themselves.

Sounds pretty genious doesnt it&gt;? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This story is a "We've always done it that way" tale. It says that the standard distance between railroad rails in the U.S. is four-feet, eight-and-a-half inches. Why? Because that's what it was in England. Why? Because that's the gauge the tramways used before the railroads. Why? Because the tramways were built using the same tools as wagon-builders and that's how wide the wagon wheels were spaced. Why? Because the old roads in England had ruts that the wheels needed to accommodate. Why? Because the ruts were made by Imperial Roman chariots.

When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its
launch pad, there are two big booster rockets
attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These
are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are
made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The
engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred
to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to
be shipped by train from the factory to the launch
site. The railroad line from the factory happens to
run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had
to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly
wider than the railroad track, and the railroad
track, as you now know, is about as wide as two
horses' behinds.

So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what
is arguably the world's most advanced transportation
system was determined over two thousand years ago by
the width of a horse's as.s. ... and you thought
being a HORSE'S AS.S wasn't important!

-HH-Dubbo
02-15-2005, 01:47 PM
That's pretty funny. And probably true. It reminds me of another story when during the 70s garbage truck crews were 4 strong. A driver, 2 guys who rode on the back to collect the bins and empty them into the truck, and a 4th guy who rode on the front step of the truck and would get off at each stop. He would stand there until the truck moved off again where he would climb back onto the step.

Someone then asked what his purpose was and looking back, it was discovered that his job was actually to hold the horses at each stop. Needless to say, the position was eliminated fairly soon after the discovery. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WTE_Galway
02-15-2005, 03:30 PM
there have been merlin powered 109's and DB powered spitfires and hurricanes

in every case the DB engine gave the best performance


by all accounts the DB powered spitfires were monsters .. higher ceiling by several thousand feet and much faster than the merlin version

BerkshireHunt
02-15-2005, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
there have been merlin powered 109's and DB powered spitfires and hurricanes

in every case the DB engine gave the best performance


by all accounts the DB powered spitfires were monsters .. higher ceiling by several thousand feet and much faster than the merlin version <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should qualify that by recognising that wartime substitutions were of little scientific value.
In 1941 the Yugoslavs removed a float carb Merlin from a Hurricane Mk1 and replaced it with a DB601A. They judged the DB superior mainly because it didn't cut under negative G- something with which Rolls Royce concurred, and had already addressed back in Britain. The latest Merlins were by then unavailable to Yugoslavia.
The Merlin removed from the Spitfire V by a German team was replaced with a higher-powered DB605. They also removed all the armament and radio equipment and guess what?-the Spitfire climbed much better than it had before and was faster.
The Hispano Buchon is often said to have been a pig to fly since the four blade prop on the Merlin created a large torque reaction which the Buchon's small fin/rudder could not properly balance (probably why Messerschmitt never fitted a four blade prop to the 109). But as the Buchon had different armament, cooling solutions and aerodynamics it hardly represents a straightforward engine swap.
Put it like this-if the British had installed a Merlin 66 in a 109E they would have concluded the Merlin was superior to a DB601A. No question. If they'd put a Griffon in a 109G6 they have concluded that the Griffon was superior. If the Germans had put a DB605 in a Tempest airframe it would have struggled to get off the ground. Get the point?

Kurfurst__
02-16-2005, 05:48 AM
The Spit V they rebuilt with DB 605A-1 was indeed faster than the original Merlin 45 engined ones, even though the plane was tested only with limited 1.3ata boost. There was not much difference at low and medium altitudes, but above 6000 the DB showed it`s teeth, the speed gain being massive, 50-60 kph worth iirc. I guess it`s not just the horsepower increase, which may even be rather small, but the other factors that came with the DB, ie. the more finely shaped cowling and nose, and the VDM propellor - german propellor designs were greatly admired at that time. And as BSH mentioned, the climb figures are quite a bit misleading - the plane was much lighter than originally because the missing equipement, but this probably did not effect speed nearly as heavily as climb rate. But oh yeah, the DB series were probably the most advanced engines of their time, a technology marvel.

As far as the Buchon goes, I really like to see how did it compared in handling and performance compared to the original G-2. Mark hanna flew one, but he only mentioned only directional stability being worser than the DB engined ones. The hybrid 109 having 'pig' characteristics was probably the czech bastard aircraft, ruined with gondolas, and an unsuitable junkers 211 bomber engine, even the hood being taken from the FW 190. I have seen some accounts of it from the israelis, and while it lost a great many of the gustav`s original qualities, it was still a nice plane.

SpitfireSeafire
02-16-2005, 05:33 PM
In response to mynameisroland

That doesn't sound right because what if they are robbed from the other side. I thought is what that when cars were first becoming used the main concern was making sure you didn't go in the ditch, since there weren't many other cars around. So with right hand drive you needed to drive on the right to stay out of the ditch. Then when more cars were aroun they started to drive on the left so that ina right hand drive car you could see how close you were to other cars more easily.

ginger_cat
02-16-2005, 06:16 PM
I heard that it was swords (not guns) that determined horse riders (not carriage drivers) riding to the left of each other as they passed from opposite directions.