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doogerie
11-23-2010, 01:15 PM
so ok I am playing online at now but i seems whenever i get up or get in to fight i alwas find myself wirh soone on my six who maages to take em out ican't out turn them and don't know how to shake them. I have tryed diving turning spining I just can't seem to get rid of a take and aleays witht file get shot down within about 5 mis can ayone give me a few good combat manover that ican use to:
1. get rid of the tale
or
2. get on the tale of the guy that was taleing me

doogerie
11-23-2010, 01:15 PM
so ok I am playing online at now but i seems whenever i get up or get in to fight i alwas find myself wirh soone on my six who maages to take em out ican't out turn them and don't know how to shake them. I have tryed diving turning spining I just can't seem to get rid of a take and aleays witht file get shot down within about 5 mis can ayone give me a few good combat manover that ican use to:
1. get rid of the tale
or
2. get on the tale of the guy that was taleing me

skarden
11-23-2010, 01:41 PM
A very very deep subject with tonnes of factors that needed to be understood and applied.

I highly recommend reading this PDF "In Pursuit"

In Pursuit (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf)

you certainly don't have to read it all but chapters in it deals directly with stuff you wanted to know and a hell of a lot more,great reading for any online pilot wishing to be more then target practice for the other pilots on the other side,I even printed it out to make the most out of it.
Very comprehensive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bankoletti
11-23-2010, 01:44 PM
Knowledge.

Know your airplane and its capabilities. Know the enemy plane and its capabilities.

Then do something where your plane is better than his.

Example: When jumped by a spit in a Fw-190, dive and run - for your plane is faster than his in level run and has a higher break up speed. Do not try to outclimb or outturn him, and keep maneouvering at minimum since his superior energy retention during turns only helps him, not you during maneouvering.

moilami1
11-23-2010, 02:05 PM
Also consider joining on some good squadron and see how online flying can be totally something else than quicly rushing to The Furball.

I wish I experienced a good organized and planned online war campaign with a good squadron instead of soloing in those chaotic nonsense dog fightning servers, when I bought this game.

VW-IceFire
11-23-2010, 03:31 PM
There are two basic types of fighter pilots on a dogfight server:

Type 1 - Takes off and flies directly for the closest fight. See's an enemy plane and chases after it until it's dead or he's been shot down. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

Type 2 - Takes off, assess the likely battle situation and climbs for position. Once in position said pilot will fly towards the battle and circle the outside looking for the best target. This type is also more likely to pair up with a like minded pilot and make team diving passes on targets. When confronted with an opponent of superior height or speed they will often dive for safety or attempt to bring down the relative energy state of their opponent.

You want to be type 2... but most pilots will find themselves being type 1 sometimes.

moilami1
11-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Hmm, I will have to keep that in mind. At least free dogfightning servers could be better training than offline for planned online wars.

major_setback
11-23-2010, 05:47 PM
AI have difficulty following complex moves. Try a bit of rudder as you pull to one side. Vary the amount too.

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 05:43 AM
In a sticky situation all you need is IMAGINATION... without it you're swiss-cheese?
http://www.freewebs.com/number1spongebobfan/yyyyyyyyy.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bearcat99
11-24-2010, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by doogerie:
so ok I am playing online at now but i seems whenever i get up or get in to fight i alwas find myself wirh soone on my six who maages to take em out ican't out turn them and don't know how to shake them. I have tryed diving turning spining I just can't seem to get rid of a take and aleays witht file get shot down within about 5 mis can ayone give me a few good combat manover that ican use to:
1. get rid of the tale
or
2. get on the tale of the guy that was taleing me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no tricks..
Practice.. practice flying.. not just fighting and pushing the plane as far as you can.. Try to practice things like keeping your plane at a certain speed through out several maneuvers.. practice loops and rolls.. practice controlled stalls.. ver hard in this sim actually as there is no feel...

In Pursuit is a good place to start..

Other than that consider that there are people here who have been flying this sim online in every incarnation from the original IL2 to this and modded.. for almost 10 years..

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 09:05 AM
When reading all these documents, remember that it is not all 'carved in stone', and a lot depends on you quickly assessing the situation.

As an example..
If you have a tail and he coming in very fast (BnZ) you want to move in such a way as to keep your speed up, but also entrap him into slowing down to your speed.
Say you get this right, then you now actually want to turn very tightly so as to slow down (high-g turns are effective). This will bring him/her very close and this is where the fun begins.... who can 'outstare' the other in the most effective and efficient way.

The example mostly occurs when you and your opponent are suddenly in an 'empty sky', and flying skills and knowledge of both a/c now give you the advantage, and your imagination gives you the 'kill' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In No Uncertain terms: Practise your low speed flying skills before your high speed skills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

norton1974
11-24-2010, 01:32 PM
2 years ago I asked these same questions.

Planeset makes a big difference on tactics some planes you cant turn the tables when bounced, all you can do is run or hope help shows up in the form of a friendly aircraft.

The main thing is to keep flying day after day and you will gain experience, then you can soon recognise trouble before it is behind you.
After some time you will almost have a kind of intuition about what is happening. Time is the only way of getting experience and it comes in the form of getting shot down alot.

Teamwork is a great way to learn, i think it is the fast track if you can get on comms with people and wing up.

WTE_Galway
11-24-2010, 03:30 PM
I haven't flown online for years but back in the day the trick was to never let someone get your 6. Especially in a situation where no-one was around to help.

I suspect it is still much the same.

K_Freddie
11-24-2010, 05:34 PM
Here's (V4.09 - No Mods) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/norudder.trk) offline track that might give you an idea.
It's offline so AI is dense, but pay attention to the meeting with LA-3 after LA-4 has been disposed of.
The way I get onto the tail is a true representation of what happens online. From there the AI makes similar human mistakes, and if you bide your time - the result is the same.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
11-24-2010, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by doogerie:
so ok I am playing online at now but i seems whenever i get up or get in to fight i alwas find myself wirh soone on my six who maages to take em out ican't out turn them and don't know how to shake them. I have tryed diving turning spining I just can't seem to get rid of a take and aleays witht file get shot down within about 5 mis can ayone give me a few good combat manover that ican use to:
1. get rid of the tale
or
2. get on the tale of the guy that was taleing me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no tricks..
Practice.. practice flying.. not just fighting and pushing the plane as far as you can.. Try to practice things like keeping your plane at a certain speed through out several maneuvers.. practice loops and rolls.. practice controlled stalls.. ver hard in this sim actually as there is no feel...

In Pursuit is a good place to start..

Other than that consider that there are people here who have been flying this sim online in every incarnation from the original IL2 to this and modded.. for almost 10 years.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing though: Don't be slow. Slow planes can't pull hard maneuvers or zoom worth spit.
I'd rather be at lower alt moving fast than co-alt and trying to speed up!

Xiolablu3
11-25-2010, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
There are two basic types of fighter pilots on a dogfight server:

Type 1 - Takes off and flies directly for the closest fight. See's an enemy plane and chases after it until it's dead or he's been shot down. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

Type 2 - Takes off, assess the likely battle situation and climbs for position. Once in position said pilot will fly towards the battle and circle the outside looking for the best target. This type is also more likely to pair up with a like minded pilot and make team diving passes on targets. When confronted with an opponent of superior height or speed they will often dive for safety or attempt to bring down the relative energy state of their opponent.

You want to be type 2... but most pilots will find themselves being type 1 sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


^ this is the answer.

Everyone starts as type one, but veterans with brains move onto being type 2.

I would also add 'always stays high OR fast when possible' Remember turning bleeds off speed very quickly, rolling however is much more enegery efficient way of turning.

Mysticpuma2003
11-25-2010, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
There are two basic types of fighter pilots on a dogfight server:

Type 1 - Takes off and flies directly for the closest fight. See's an enemy plane and chases after it until it's dead or he's been shot down. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

Type 2 - Takes off, assess the likely battle situation and climbs for position. Once in position said pilot will fly towards the battle and circle the outside looking for the best target. This type is also more likely to pair up with a like minded pilot and make team diving passes on targets. When confronted with an opponent of superior height or speed they will often dive for safety or attempt to bring down the relative energy state of their opponent.

You want to be type 2... but most pilots will find themselves being type 1 sometimes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best advice you can ever get. I used to be Type 1 and nearly gave up on the game! "HOW CAN THEY KEEP GETTING AWAY FROM ME!!!!" I'd yell.

Then I learned about energy, and hooked up with a Type 2 pilot (probably icefire at some point on Battle-fields) and Warclouds.

Yes, we all want to get into a fight (unless you fly bombers or P-38 on a Rocket/Bomb attack) but there is no point taking off, seeing an aircraft above you and trying to climb to attack it. You'll lose 99 out of 100 times (not an official stat!).

Talking about flying a P-47 (just because it's my favourite ride) Altitude is life in a dogfight. If you are higher than the enemy, you have energy, which converts to speed. Speed lets you attack and retreat faster than they can catch you. Good pilots can out-manoeuvre this tactic, but with two P-47 pilots working together (make sure you have Teamspeak) you can make a devastating attack on aircraft below you.

Read that last-line..."below you". Altitude is life, get some altitude before you engage an enemy, get in, get out (again this is for a P-47, the tactic is more commonly known as Booming and Zooming).

Good enemy pilots will twist and turn trying to make you chase them. This 'bleeds' off your energy advantage, they then use their skill to get behind you and you're dead!

My main advice is follow Ice's suggestion. Fly as a pair. One two-sets of eyes will always be better than having to watch the sky by yorself.

Many times I have called out "Bogey 2 o'clock low" and my wingman has not been able to see it but said he'd follow me down.

Once the target has been spotted you can either work as a team or be mercenary and try to be a glory hunter. The latter will get you killed if their is more than one enemy in the area, but working as a team,one dives and attacks while the other stays high and watches the skies. As the attacker climbs back up to altitude (zooming), the pilot who was just looking out starts his dive. The enemy pilot is usually (no always) watching the aircraft they have just avoided, so the second attacker can sometimes sneak in unseen.

There are many,many tactics. The PDF linked above is a great read.

But my main advice....get a wingman, get teamspeak and fly different aircraft until you feel happy with your choice......just don't turn-fight on the deck with a P-47.....you wont be a flying P-47 for longhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Cheers, MP

M_Gunz
11-25-2010, 01:35 PM
Altitude is good but 1000 meters above your FTH, you start to run out of options vs the ones who haven't reached their FTH yet.

As has been said: Speed is Life.

freakvollder
11-28-2010, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by doogerie:
so ok I am playing online at now but i seems whenever i get up or get in to fight i alwas find myself wirh soone on my six who maages to take em out ican't out turn them and don't know how to shake them. I have tryed diving turning spining I just can't seem to get rid of a take and aleays witht file get shot down within about 5 mis can ayone give me a few good combat manover that ican use to:
1. get rid of the tale
or
2. get on the tale of the guy that was taleing me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They are NO simply NO maneuvers that will help you if you don't know the basics. Read IN PURSUIT the pilots guide to online air-combat, skarden has given you the link.
read it! and read it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
First it'll be enough to read PartI and PartII until point 6.(Energy) and you will know more than 99% of all online pilots will ever know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


S

Erkki_M
11-28-2010, 12:38 PM
One word: discipline.


Also avoid the airquake servers that have all the helps on if you're planning to learn things further than very basics... They dont teach much.

PhantomKira
11-28-2010, 03:14 PM
Contrails are like beacons announcing your presence. I like to fly just below the contrail layer. It makes me harder to spot at any distance beyond close.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
One word: discipline.

Also avoid the airquake servers that have all the helps on if you're planning to learn things further than very basics... They dont teach much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

I've flown with external cam and used the external targeting wayyyy too much. It's a major hindrance now that I'm attempting to move to in cockpit only. Crutches are great if you're injured, and maybe when you're literally just learning to fly, but once you get a good handle on the where's and hows of flight, crutches are bad and hold you back.

Find someone like minded and fly together. Remember that real world tactics work in this sim for a reason. Don't go lone wolf, few did in WWII, and those few were either really, really good, or didn't live long, or both.

EDIT:

+1 for "use your imagination". The guides out there are great, but remember, those with formal training are predictable, if you all get the same training (example: U.S. civil war). Your object is not to be predictable. Arguably, this means "don't get formal training". There's a great book I read years ago called Knight Hawk by Pat O'Connell (http://www.amazon.com/Knight-Hawk-Pat-OConnell/dp/0843942533/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291143913&sr=1-1), that, while fiction, illustrates this point well. An F-15 gets stolen from an alert pad by a pilot with many hours pilot training but no formal combat training, and she walks all over the formally trained pilots that go after her. Good example of why you may not want to follow "THE RULES" as "THE RULES" believe it or not, are not written in stone. Use your imagination. Do something completely unexpected, become unpredictable, and you will create opportunities for yourself that would not otherwise appear. The next part of that is to take those opportunities and use them to their fullest potential... rather than getting suckered into fighting your enemy's fight (again). It happens to us all, and that's where discipline comes in. You may want to haul off after your target, but in some cases, you simply can't if you expect to live to tell about it.