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rebelinthenude0
03-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Im starting this because this is just an idea wat the events will be that happen in the game not who we kill.

I believe blah blah blah in the first part about initiation stuff but about the conspiracy thing i believe that it has somthing to do with him being the "Son of None" i think he's a person of royal blood or somthing in that nature that is connected with say somthing with the garden of edin maybe??? or somthing with the world is gonna end type thing??? oh and about the sequels i believe that his ancestors or ancestor has to finsih somthing that he never finishes.......somthing like that tell me wat u think??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

rebelinthenude0
03-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Im starting this because this is just an idea wat the events will be that happen in the game not who we kill.

I believe blah blah blah in the first part about initiation stuff but about the conspiracy thing i believe that it has somthing to do with him being the "Son of None" i think he's a person of royal blood or somthing in that nature that is connected with say somthing with the garden of edin maybe??? or somthing with the world is gonna end type thing??? oh and about the sequels i believe that his ancestors or ancestor has to finsih somthing that he never finishes.......somthing like that tell me wat u think??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

noobfun
03-13-2007, 01:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rebelinthenude0:
Im starting this because this is just an idea wat the events will be that happen in the game not who we kill.

I believe blah blah blah in the first part about initiation stuff but about the conspiracy thing i believe that it has somthing to do with him being the "Son of None" i think he's a person of royal blood or somthing in that nature that is connected with say somthing with the garden of edin maybe??? or somthing with the world is gonna end type thing??? oh and about the sequels i believe that his ancestors or ancestor has to finsih somthing that he never finishes.......somthing like that tell me wat u think??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


ummmm k, and the bits of could understand

royal blood ... nope he was a nizari only way to be of royal blood would be the son of the imam and that wouldnt make him royal, he's also from the syrain branch the nizari imam lived in the iranian branch

garden of eden is a christian thing, if your on about the garden they were taken to after they got totally stonned its a myth and you must be stonned to to believe that

its not time travel so he cant help his ancestor complete somthing its genetic memory, its a memory of what his ancestor has done already, also means altair got his rocks off and had a kid some time after the games ended

as to the conspiracy and end of the world ... who knows

Anubis14_360
03-13-2007, 03:08 AM
i like it....but noobfun put you down petty good

XxKillabytexX
03-13-2007, 03:41 AM
Hey noobfun you could help me this.

The royal blood thing that you mentioned. Dose that have anything to do with Sang Grail and the Knights Templar because AC is set in crusader times noobfun you could help me with this I think.

The connection contraversy might have to do with Jesus because as mentioned earlier the holy blood-Sang Grail-The holy grail-the blood of christ the whole knoghts templar thing protectors of Mary Magdaliene keepers of the holy secret.

Maby this is the connection we have been talking about.

Noobfun you seem to know alot about nizari history so you could probably help me figure this out.

Also sry if this has been discused before. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

noobfun
03-13-2007, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by XxKillabytexX:
Hey noobfun you could help me this.

The royal blood thing that you mentioned. Dose that have anything to do with Sang Grail and the Knights Templar because AC is set in crusader times noobfun you could help me with this I think.

The connection contraversy might have to do with Jesus because as mentioned earlier the holy blood-Sang Grail-The holy grail-the blood of christ the whole knoghts templar thing protectors of Mary Magdaliene keepers of the holy secret.

Maby this is the connection we have been talking about.

Noobfun you seem to know alot about nizari history so you could probably help me figure this out.

Also sry if this has been discused before. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol dam you caught me out, yepp im a secret memebr of the knights templar we protect the sons of jesus and the nizari protect the daughters

just ask dan brown he knows all about it the swine

the knights templar have nothing to do with the nizari and vice versa in a friendly kinda way

the nizari aproached the king of jerusalem about converting to christianity, several knights templar ambushed and killed the nizari ambasader on his way home, so the nizari did a u turn and stayed muslim so they eneded up forming a loose alliance with saladin shortly before the third crusade

basically a dont mess with us and we will leave ya alone while your killing the white folk

kabura786
03-13-2007, 04:33 AM
i doubt he would be from jesus's bloodline but since his name as i mentioned in the other topic could mean son of the one i would think he could be the son of hassan-i-sabbah the guy who founded the group of assassins

Anubis14_360
03-13-2007, 05:05 AM
how do you kown all this? mmm.. i kown a little bit, very little my dam school does not do much hisoty it is all goverments,sicents,biollogy,maths, yeah so every thing but hisory which sucks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif but next yaer i think i can pick it for a class http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

XxKillabytexX
03-13-2007, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how do you kown all this? mmm.. i kown a little bit, very little my dam school does not do much hisoty it is all goverments,sicents,biollogy,maths, yeah so every thing but hisory which sucks but next yaer i think i can pick it for a class </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well im only in yer 9 if anyone whants to know.

And my school sucks at history the teachers know NOTHING for example my last history teacher couldn't tell the difference between a normal bow and a cross bow.
No to get off topic to much but I hate my school its full of bloody surfers and sports players who again KNOW NOTHING. As for how I know all this (bearing in mind that you were talking to me and not noobfun but the mor I think of it I think you are talking to noobfun)I just got intrested in the Da Vinci Code read the book, saw the movie(which tells you nothing) and all that.
from there I just started researching it and now I know the facts despite what noobfun thinks lol.



Also there could still be a conection I just think holy blood-Sang Grail.

Another question for noobfun...

what religion did the nizari follow? I know its a stupid question and the awnser is probably the Koran but in crusader period the population was prodemently christan so maby they were folowers of the bible.

Also sorry for going off-topic again I have already got in troble for bumping threds so sorry again.

Anubis14_360
03-13-2007, 05:31 AM
NP.i http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

kabura786
03-13-2007, 05:33 AM
the nizaris were muslim and still are. as stated in noobfuns post they were about to turn christian until there ambassador got killed by the knights templar

kabura786
03-13-2007, 05:35 AM
also i think its worth mentioning that the muslim prophet also has a bloodline since he did have like 9 wives and had 7 daughters with only one wife, if al tair was part of any type of royal bloodline it might have been the prophets since his bloodline is in a sense considered royal

rebelinthenude0
03-13-2007, 11:22 AM
There is some connection with his name "Son on None" Jade doesnt talk about it much but i think it's very important. I do agree with Noobfun about the children part but that cant be all, He's got to be connected, By blood to a prophet or someone of great importance then and/0r now..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

noobfun
03-13-2007, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kabura786:
also i think its worth mentioning that the muslim prophet also has a bloodline since he did have like 9 wives and had 7 daughters with only one wife, if al tair was part of any type of royal bloodline it might have been the prophets since his bloodline is in a sense considered royal </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the nizari was both the people and religeon they were an off shoot from isma'ili muslims, they were despised by shia twelvers (dominant shia group) and the sunni's who happily perescyted and slaughtered them which is why they created thier own provinces and protected them from fortresses

if he was hashan the first's son then that makes him pretty old, hassan was born around 1060 maybe slightly earlier

being related to the prophet ...... thats far reaching and almost impossible

there was the sunni shia split then latter the sunni severners and twelvers spilt, later again another split which gave rise to the nizari

that gives 6 blood ties to 6 imams related to the prophet, problem is the imam the nizari believed in was killed and had no kids, so they were waiting for the hidden imam to reveal him self, when one of the nizari leaders declared he was the decendant of the nizari imam everyone accepted it but that was in 1160

but this is the bit that makes it unlikley, the iranian province was where the imam lived the syrian province is the home of altair, people tended not to move between the iraniana and syrian provinces unless they really needed to, like i say everyone hated them and would happily kill them if they were found out

they are gonna have to pull a whole lot of creative thinking and poetic license if the blood line turned out to be part of the story

FableB
03-13-2007, 02:15 PM
Or simply UBI decided to call him "The son of none" just not go deeper into details about his real identity, decreasing the chances of having flaws in the storyline or historical facts.

chewie1890
03-13-2007, 03:22 PM
Son of None could also possibly be related to the belief 'Nothing is true, everything is permitted,' that Jade talks about. Seeing as this is a historical fiction game I doubt that the storyline was required to go with the history, so I think anything is possible.

noobfun
03-13-2007, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FableB:
Or simply UBI decided to call him "The son of none" just not go deeper into details about his real identity, decreasing the chances of having flaws in the storyline or historical facts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep but your forgetting in the land of specualation everything means something it just has too!!!

like the guy who thought having a hawk in the trailer must symbolise america ........

the historys flawed enough jade keeps talking about hashassin and hassan the old man of the mountain, i hope the historian helped on the game and not on her interviews or were gonna end up fighting god with laser guns

chewie1890
03-13-2007, 03:29 PM
OH NO! ITS ALREADY HAPPENING!

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3832/laserrb8.th.png (http://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=laserrb8.png)

kabura786
03-13-2007, 04:22 PM
i think it'll be hard to get the history correct since there are some historians who believe that the assassins didn't exist at all and there isn't much good resources on them since the mongols invaded and destroyed there headquarters and stuff but since ubi is working with historians they might get a real good logical theory of these people and how they did what they did haha

noobfun
03-13-2007, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kabura786:
i think it'll be hard to get the history correct since there are some historians who believe that the assassins didn't exist at all and there isn't much good resources on them since the mongols invaded and destroyed there headquarters and stuff but since ubi is working with historians they might get a real good logical theory of these people and how they did what they did haha </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


lol there are? and they are real historians? like who?

theres still a fair amount of info much of it saved in india by the nizari of shoot that settled there

XxKillabytexX
03-14-2007, 02:05 AM
So from what I can gather this is what you guys are saying...

There is a holy bloodline (this is all by the Koran btw) and the holy blood was passed down through generations because Muhumad had a number of wives and a number of daughters. Now noobfun stated that there was a very slim chancs of Altair being part of the holy bloodline. Now bering in mind the muslim prophet was said to have existed long before the time of our young Altair so maby there is a chance of Altair being part of the holy blood line because anyone who has common sence knows that family trees branch out.

But why am i even pondering this question of a made up character being part of a holy bloodline?

But as stated by Jade and noobfun will have to confirm this but Altair was part of a real group of assassins called the Hashshashin which was the first group of assassins infact they made the word assassin bla bla bla...

anyway the question i ponder now is...

Could this group the Hashshashin be part of the holy bloodline if it is to exist?

kabura786
03-14-2007, 04:40 AM
there's this book written by farhad daftary thats called "the assassin legends: myths of the isma'ilis" and the whole book is about how the assassins could have been over exagerated in a sense but i personally do agree with there being enough evidence to prove that these people did exist or something really identical. and also to xxkillabytesxx question, there are people to this day that claim to be from the prophets bloodline maybe some of hashashin members were part of it maybe not, actually on my moms side of the family her great great grandfather was from iraq and he was said to be from the family of the prophet

XxKillabytexX
03-14-2007, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">actually on my moms side of the family her great great grandfather was from iraq and he was said to be from the family of the prophet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow

Hey if anyone knows of any good books or reading material to do with the stuff that were talking about now please let me know about them. I will be most thankful.

noobfun
03-14-2007, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by XxKillabytexX:
So from what I can gather this is what you guys are saying...

There is a holy bloodline (this is all by the Koran btw) and the holy blood was passed down through generations because Muhumad had a number of wives and a number of daughters. Now noobfun stated that there was a very slim chancs of Altair being part of the holy bloodline. Now bering in mind the muslim prophet was said to have existed long before the time of our young Altair so maby there is a chance of Altair being part of the holy blood line because anyone who has common sence knows that family trees branch out.

But why am i even pondering this question of a made up character being part of a holy bloodline?

But as stated by Jade and noobfun will have to confirm this but Altair was part of a real group of assassins called the Hashshashin which was the first group of assassins infact they made the word assassin bla bla bla...

anyway the question i ponder now is...

Could this group the Hashshashin be part of the holy bloodline if it is to exist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol killa

the word hasassin as you well know was around long before the nizari and long after they were gone (mid 20th century the word was still in use) it basically meant outcast/outlaw by the 20th century its meaning changed to rowdy or noisy person

no arabic scholar or leader ever refered to them by that name in any of the many many documents we have

your looking at muslim beliefs using christian values, being decended from the prophet mohamed gave you some bragging rights and you were openly allowed to wear the color green (the colour of the prophet a holy colour)

the blood line of the imam was what was important, the imam bieng directly linked to the will of god, his messenger on earth. it was passed from the imam to usually his first son but he could declare other male blood members of his family the imam

the spilt between the shi severners and the twelvers happened because the imam declared his first son the next imam, then changed his mind to pass it to another the severners believed once declaired it cannot be changed the twelvers believed it could

the holy blood line is the blood line of the imams (should have only been one but splits like above happened several time the first right after the prophet mohamed died)

now your dan brown thinking doesnt apply mohammed was the prophet, jesus was the son of god

jesus bieng the son of god means that any of his children would be directly related to god, he made the rest of us but they are physically related. he doesnt just communicate through them like noah or mosses(prophets of god)

for the religeon to work god must be perfect, so jesus must also be perfect if he isnt then that would imply god wasnt either

god is all knowing all seeing which is why while milions starve and die or are killed people say its the will of god a test of sorts becuase if god just let us die or be killed randomly it takes away from the notion of perfection .....

see now im going off topic ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Fatimid caliph al-Mustansir had designated his eldest son Nizar as the next Imam, and according to Isma'ili tradition this decision could not be revoked. But towards the end of his reign al-Mustansir lost control of his empire and effective power passed to an army officer called Badr al-Jamali. When al-Mustansir died, in 1094, Badr's son al-Afdal, who was now in effective control, put another of al-Mustansir's sons, al-Musta'li, on the the throne. Nizar, not surprisingly, objected, and a brief civil war ensued; but Nizar was defeated, imprisoned, and eventually executed.

Allegiance to Nizar raised an important practical question, however: where was the Imam? After Nizar's death there was no obvious successor, but it was a central part of the Isma'ili position that there must always be an Imam somewhere, otherwise everything would fall to pieces. For the moment the Imam was regarded as "Hidden"; later he was to stage a most dramatic reappearance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the blood line of the imams was once again broken, until hassan the second declaired him self the new imam in 1160, so nope altair isnt the next imam so much for holy blood line thoery


p.s chewie nice pic lol ^_^ didnt notice it last night

heres a book for ya ninja assasins big book of stuff (http://www.acampbell.ukfsn.org/assassins/index.html)

it covers the eraly history of the ishma'ili the split to become the nizari and on to the mongel invasion and destruction of the syrian and iranain nizari states

chapter 3 will get you in the mind set of the nizari from 1164 until the early part of the 12 hundred and explain what ' nothing is real everything is allowed' means

chapter 4 will tell ya all about sinan and the syrian nizari, which is where altair is from

kabura786
03-14-2007, 06:22 AM
woah woah hey man i was reading the first chapter of that link u put up of the book about the assasssins and it reads "Since that time, however, much new information has come to light, some of it material preserved by descendants of the Assassins themselves" there are actual people out there who can trace there identity back to the actual assassins? wow i guess this could be linked to how people are mentioning that the game is of someones genetic memory and some people looking into it to find a modern day assassin that is probably in the family line of Al-tair

noobfun
03-14-2007, 07:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kabura786:
woah woah hey man i was reading the first chapter of that link u put up of the book about the assasssins and it reads "Since that time, however, much new information has come to light, some of it material preserved by descendants of the Assassins themselves" there are actual people out there who can trace there identity back to the actual assassins? wow i guess this could be linked to how people are mentioning that the game is of someones genetic memory and some people looking into it to find a modern day assassin that is probably in the family line of Al-tair </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

modern ishma'ili and especially the nizari deny thier history because its not in keeping with islam, they went way radicul if your read chapter 3

its more from the koja of india who are directly linked by missionaries that were sent thier to spread the word

FableB
03-14-2007, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">your looking at muslim beliefs using christian values, being decended from the prophet mohamed gave you some bragging rights and you were openly allowed to wear the color green (the colour of the prophet a holy colour)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being a descendant of The Prophet Mohammed adds more duties than benefits.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">god is all knowing all seeing which is why while milions starve and die or are killed people say its the will of god a test of sorts becuase if god just let us die or be killed randomly it takes away from the notion of perfection ..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human is known to be ungrateful, when he's poor, he blames God, and when he's rich, he forgets to thank God.

So it's a test, to see whose belief is strong, and whose not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the blood line of the imam was what was important, the imam bieng directly linked to the will of god, his messenger on earth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the holy blood line is the blood line of the imams (should have only been one but splits like above happened several time the first right after the prophet mohamed died) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The first human being and the most holy one in Islam is the Prophet Mohammed, not the Imams.

noobfun
03-14-2007, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FableB:
human is known to be ungrateful, when he's poor, he blames God, and when he's rich, he forgets to thank God.

So it's a test, to see whose belief is strong, and whose not.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

theres the infalable god and the reason all religeons explain peoples suffering

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FableB:

The first human being and the most holy one in Islam is the Prophet Mohammed, not the Imams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes totaly

but after mohamed died the role past to the imam(who was a blood relation) and down the bloodlines until the various splits

the imam bieng the voice of god on earth the leader of the faith tahts the most important of the blood lines that lead back to mohamed

killabyte was comparing it to the davinci code

if altair turned out to be the great great great great grandson of mohamed it wouldnt elevate his status in the muslim world in the same way as the great great great grandson of jesus popping up to say would in the christian world

rebelinthenude0
03-14-2007, 02:55 PM
we need to figure out wat somthing in the past would do to effect somthing in the future http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

noobfun
03-14-2007, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rebelinthenude0:
we need to figure out wat somthing in the past would do to effect somthing in the future http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the 9 have all come back to life as radioactive zombie nazis, worked thier way in to the us goverment and started a new crusade silly .. dont you watch the news

chewie1890
03-14-2007, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rebelinthenude0:
we need to figure out wat somthing in the past would do to effect somthing in the future http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could follow the "History repeats itself," philosophy and there could be another crusade/invasion. Then the man who has Altair in his genes would have to kill key invaders. Its a possibility but it would be weird.

RetiredHatch
03-14-2007, 04:20 PM
I'm pretty sure they said it's actually pretty relevant to what's going on now in the world not iraq and nothing controversial they said though i dunno http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif nevermind

rebelinthenude0
03-14-2007, 05:20 PM
I think i got it.....Remember the genetic memory thing well thats it there trying to figure out if when your ancestors have memories are they stored in your DNA well there answer is yes...The point being Creed means:1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.
2. any system or codification of belief or of opinion.
3. an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles of Christian belief, as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Athanasian Creed.
I think the whole base story is a government funded company trying to find people that have ancestors that were assassins to make them modern day assassins or because they did somthin in the crusades it is related to somthin now and there the only ones that could do it.......one more idea maybe they are trying to be able to recover lost points in history and this is there way.........sorry just one more maybe they are trying to bring back people from the dead like clones or somthin by using DNA??? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

XxKillabytexX
03-15-2007, 01:20 AM
Ok noobfun got another question well not really more a statement.

The Koran and the bible are so similar the religions are basically the same. There has been a war forght for thousands of years and that is still going today all because of one pice of land that both religions claim to be sacred and a holy place (jruselem for anyone who dosent know)and they both claim to have the same god.

Now as already stated both these religions claim to be the right one when basically they are the same. As we all know the bible is composed of letters that Mathew, Mark, Luke and Jhon sent to eachother. Now the Koran I dont know as much about but it is basically the same.

Now not to strike contraversy and any religious people omong us I mean you no insult. Everyone is entitled to thier own belief and I appologies for any contraversy I am about to start (lol) or have already started.

But if the bible and the Koran are so much the same, why cant they be the same?

Why dose there have to be all this fighting over thre same god dam thing?

Now lets say they are the same not word for word ofcorse but well lets just say in a metophorical sence belief for belief. This being stated why cant the Christan and the Muslim bloodline be the same the modern day Sophie Noveu (made up character I know im only giving her name for the sake of exampling [also anyone who has red the Da Vinci Code knows what Im talking about]) be a long decendant of our friend Altair (again just an example)

If these religious statments are the same with minor diferences and im trying not to touch the subject to much why can Jesus's bloodline still exist and be swirling with the blood of our prophet?

That is the question I ask.

Now again Im pretty shure I've gone off-topic ALOT and I might even create a seperate thred but this will tie into the storyline im shure of it.

Also thanks for the reeding material noobfun much appreciated http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

FableB
03-15-2007, 02:23 AM
Eh, I know that question is meant for noobfun, but let me explain something too:

The fight over Palestine is not between the Muslims and ALL the Jews, it's between the Muslims and a group of Jews who say that that lind is theirs, there are alot of Jews out there who don't agree with what Israel is doing. So it's not a fight between two religions, but it's merely between two groups over a land which both claim to be theirs, each group say that they lived in that land before the other group long ago. And truth to be said, each group is right, but the way Israel came to Palestine is what is wrong.

So it's not a religious fight.

But The Jews' hate The Muslims and Arabs, and that hatred is as old as Islam itself, back when Mohammed was still alive.

I can go deeper into stuff, but I won't anymore because we're off-topic so I recommend making another thread about stuff like this.

XxKillabytexX
03-15-2007, 03:38 AM
But the holy war has been going on for thousands of years they both fight over the same pice of land because they both beleve it is thier sacred place for example the christans belive that jerusalem was the birth place of Jesus.

I have also created another thred to continue our convosation here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/9081084145) because we are really going off topic in this thred.

noobfun
03-15-2007, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by XxKillabytexX:
But the holy war has been going on for thousands of years they both fight over the same pice of land because they both beleve it is thier sacred place for example the christans belive that jerusalem was the birth place of Jesus.

I have also created another thred to continue our convosation here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/9081084145) because we are really going off topic in this thred. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no nazareth was the birth place of jesus later changed to bethlehem as that was the place the the new messiah would come from in religeous texts

jesus died at jerusalem

and leave the new testament out of this it was created by the romans to help unite the christians and bring them in line with the roman empire in an attempt to stop it tearing its self apart from the many factions that were revolting against then thats why only 5 of the 30 gospels were used the rest they attepted to destroy and take out of circulation

the problem is so much history has been changed and tainted by religeon its crazy

the fighting now isnt the same as it was in terms of holy wars, if you strip away all the muslims hate jews and there for christians (cause we just a offshoot that put a smiley face on god and made him all nice and fuzzy) junk that we are told (i love the way religeon is always pulled in to unite people against an enemy even if they follow the same religeon) we are left with

the fighting now is a product of uk and usa actions after the second world war. and the jews of the region making an armed land grab in the power vacum when we pulled out of the region, from the point the world recognised them as a state they have always mainted isreal's borders should be the borders that were laid down in the tora. that land occupies large chunks of syria all of palestine chunks of iraq and the other surrounding countries (the land is also rich in oil and other resources, kinda handy). obviously all the surrounding countries didnt like this idea and fought back. isreal was supported by the uk and usa so had better weapons beat off the attackers and have used this weapon dominance to threaten its neighbours ever since, the uk and usa have pretty much looked in the other direction and let israel get on with it until very recently, the uk have recently started voicing more and more concern of israel's actions (about bleeding time)

thats why we see people burning flags on tv its not that they hate americans, they hate american goverment support for israel and their actions in aiding israel

palestinians arnt a bunch of terrorists, they are fighting back at an occupying force. because we wont let them have the weapons they need to defend them selves they have had to use gorilla tactics such as random bombings (i dont approve of these methods but they have no other way so i understand why they use them)

because the surrounding countries are helping and arming the palestinians (but cant openly becasue of UN sanctions brought in by the USA) its now becoming a all the muslims over there dont like us poor jews please give us more help generalisation that to many people believe

never befoe in history has a rich well armed country easily been able to defend its self with such a terrible human rights record constantly been portraid as victims

while the poor and oppressed poorly armed people considered the bad guys the aggressors

ive tried to leave religeon out of the above to save it all getting very messy and confusing.

and no im not a USA hater or an isreal hater or a hater of anyone in perticular so dont jump on that socialogical numbskull bandwagon to reply and flame

(omg it saved ... IE crashed right as i was posting thought it had all been lost)

actually re-reading it the above is relevant to the crusades

the europeans making land grabs in spain and the holy land and using religeon to unite the people for the cause

and the same happening on the other side, using islam to unite the people to gain back the land they had lost in the name of god

once you strip away religeons its all just land grabs for resources

modern day is oil in the past it was for wealth and knowledge

cities in el andalous (spelling)(muslim empire that was almost all of what we call spain and portugal today) had street lighting and paved roads in the 8th century when london was a bunch of huts next to a river (london and paris wouldnt get those until the 18th century) the land was wealthy and highly advanced in medical and scientific practices

when the roman empire collapsed we lost almost all the ancient greek teachings and went in to the dark ages (we took a huge step backwards) the arabic world had this knowledge but wasnt dominated by the romans so their collapse didnt plunge the civilisation in to chaos

noobfun
03-15-2007, 10:49 AM
guys and gals some of what we are touching are sensative subjects

we are discussing them to compare past and present history so we can better understand both

please dont take to religeous bashing. its not what we are discussing and UBI quite rightly have a 0 tolerance policy on it.

if thats what you want to do please take it to pm (im happy to discuss religeon), but dont be suprised if you get banned from here because the person your pm'ing doesnt approve

thanks and sorry for the double post, just thought it deserved a post of its own

Eyhren
03-19-2007, 11:30 AM
a lot of ppl wer getting worked up about the 'son of none' thing... his name means son of none coz he is an orphan and was raised by the assassins... they didnt know his real name/parents so thats wat they called him. as for the sang grail it wudnt work coz the blood sang grail la-di-dah happened b4 the third crusade whereas the game is in 1191 so its already the crusade by then. but i think i read somewhere that altair had a wife so all the stuff bout his ancestors could be true... that or its some sort of futuristic time portal avatar system... not likely tho

noobfun
03-19-2007, 01:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eyhren:
a lot of ppl wer getting worked up about the 'son of none' thing... his name means son of none coz he is an orphan and was raised by the assassins... they didnt know his real name/parents so thats wat they called him. as for the sang grail it wudnt work coz the blood sang grail la-di-dah happened b4 the third crusade whereas the game is in 1191 so its already the crusade by then. but i think i read somewhere that altair had a wife so all the stuff bout his ancestors could be true... that or its some sort of futuristic time portal avatar system... not likely tho </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

o_o ok we moved this topic to here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/9081084145)

yes i posted the sone of none means he was an orphan quote,

oww noes its tha crusades!!!!

congratulations, so the grail thing doesnt work huu? wrong the knights templer were said to be the protector of the grail back when the grail was considered a cup, unlike the dan brown book thinking we have today.

if its a blood line then yepp good chance it could still be around

you dont need to read to know altair had a wife and at least one child, its the whole point of the genetic memory futuristic twist ....


and just for somwthing to make ya think im gonan need fableB's help, people can trace thier bloodline back to the prophet mohamed weve already discussed this, fableB any idea how to convert the muslim calendar to the western calendar? cause ive found this

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The rise of Islam begins with the Prophet Muhammad who was born in the city of Mecca in about 570 CE and orphaned at the age of six. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

because this blood line is gonna be close to 1200 years old i think, about the same as blood line of jesus would have been in 1191 if there was one

MDS_Geist
03-19-2007, 03:55 PM
If we're going to discuss history and particularly vis a vis current events it is important to be accurate please.

Killabyte, the reason that the Qu'ran is similar to the Bible is because Muhammad wrote the Qu'ran while being given shelter by and living among the Jews of Medina after he was thrown out of Mecca. The two books are not at all the same. The Qu'ran is really quite brilliantly crafted to combine (primarily Jewish) monotheism with Arab tribal culture. However, it is very, very different from the Bible and particularly the Christian understanding of it. So it isn't the same thing at all, and fighting over it is rather more nuanced. The Qu'ran is declared to be timeless and perfect, therefore Arab tribal law from 1,300 years ago is still religiously required.

FableB, the fighting in Israel is not at all what you present and Jews most distinctly do not hate Muslims. Sadly the feeling is generally not reciprocated and even enshrined in Sharia Law which places Jews as second class citizens at best, never able to be equal to Muslim. Even today there are regular sermons in mosques which demand hatred towards Jews, and they have made it into a religious conflict. In terms of historical claim, Jews have been a constant presence in the region since before the spread of Islam and Arabs and in point of fact Arab migration to Turkish and British Palestine mostly increased due to Jews buying swamps and turning them into farms for example. Israel was created by means of a UN vote that the Arab world rejected and instead chose to launch a war of annihilation against the state of Israel with the stated goal of wiping out the Jews - the battle cry was "Throw the Jews into the sea." Since then the Arab world still refuses to recognize Israel and the government of the Palestinian Arabs (Ironic that before 1964 to call and Arab a "Palestinian" was a sure way to get into a nasty fight) is a radical Islamist terrorist organization.

Noobfun, Israel was not an "armed land grab" in the slightest. Had the Arab nations not universally decided to try and annihilate Israel there would have been a very small state called Israel living very peacefully besides a new Arab state called Palestine. The borders of Israel in the Torah are not the borders of the modern state and certainly not of the partition state, nor does the Israeli government or population have any interest in such borders. A certain fringe do, but they are quite marginal. In point of fact, in 1948 Israel had much worse weapons than the Arabs since the Arabs had been armed and trained by the British including being given British positions with their attendant armories. The Palestinians have a great many weapons and elected terrorists as their government. They also aren't much liked by any of the other Arab nations since they have tried to set up "Palestinian states" in both Jordan and Lebanon, as well as supporting Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War - causing mass expulsions of Palestinian Arabs from most Arab nations. ironically the one nation that has never expelled the palestinians is the one that the Palestinians want to destroy - Israel.

There is a lot of misinformation out there, and that is unfortunate. So I'll be happy to keep helping clear things up.

In terms of Muhammad's bloodline the only almost 100% verifiable descendants of Muhammad are the Hashemites of Jordan. Ironically enough, most Arabs don't like them either since they're generally moderate relative to the rest of the Arab world.

noobfun
03-20-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
Israel was created by means of a UN vote that the Arab world rejected and instead chose to launch a war of annihilation against the state of Israel with the stated goal of wiping out the Jews - the battle cry was "Throw the Jews into the sea." .

Israel was not an "armed land grab" in the slightest. Had the Arab nations not universally decided to try and annihilate Israel there would have been a very small state called Israel living very peacefully besides a new Arab state called Palestine.


The Palestinians have a great many weapons and elected terrorists as their government.


There is a lot of misinformation out there, and that is unfortunate. So I'll be happy to keep helping clear things up.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

UN vote yes

armed land grab ..... no?

your missing out interesting parts of the story geist

like what was happening during the UN vote

isreal had a cabinet before there was a state of israel, they had a map of what israels borders should be and they had a plan (the had some real guts to go with this plan)

the plan keyed in on 2 factors

1) the USA pledging support both within the UN and militarily once it had been raised in the UN while the vote was bieng taken should it be delayed

2) using weapons (pirmarily british weapons left after the withdrawl of the british army) they started an armed land grab, this was a race against the clock. they managed to quell resistance and take the land that was to be israel on the map passed to to the un. now this was the race against the clock. knowning full well they couldnt withstand an organised counter attack they had to hold the land by any means neccessary and hope the expected counter assult couldnt be organised before the close of the UN's buisness for the day

the vote was raised, israel got its support and became a state and the counter attack never came because of americas pledge to send troops in should anyone attack

the war to wipe out the jewish state you talk of was the 7 day war, where israel won against massive odds and took large chunks of land, most has since been returned some has been held for miliatrily defencive needs


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Palestinians have a great many weapons and elected terrorists as their government. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> im presuming were talking about hamas?

palastinian munitions are pretty much hand weapons and rpg's, with an assortment of home built rockets and explosives

israel has the latests technology in helicopters, jets, rockets, apc's, tanks, hand held weapons, and combat equipment

yepp thats a fair fight

shall we look at why such a big differance in capabilities?

numerous UN mandates to prevent the supply of weapons to palestine are in effect

numerous mandates were attempted to stop the supply of weapons to israel were brought before the UN and all blocked by 1 veto ....american wouldnt you guess

not to mention israels stock pile of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons that it still to this day refuses to allow the UN atomic inspector to look at

somthing we have been threatening and placing sanctions against iran, iraq, north korea, syria for years

also a goverment by deffinition cant be terrorist. you also failed to mention the schools hospitals housing aid centers hamas has set up and run for years open primarily for the pooerest people in palestine ... and omg shock horror open to and used by muslims christians and jews

how they choose to defend thier country may be wrong but lets give them some credit for the work they did in trying to maintain a working infastructure in palestine

one thing i did find amusing in a very synical way was isreals demands to plaestine to arrest suspected terrorists and control the populos while carrying out weekly if not daily airstrikes against palestinian police stations which prevented them form even attemting to should they try

so yeah thanks for helping clear things up its a clear as mud now instead of just slightyly murky water

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">guys and gals some of what we are touching are sensative subjects

we are discussing them to compare past and present history so we can better understand both

please dont take to religeous bashing. its not what we are discussing and UBI quite rightly have a 0 tolerance policy on it.

if thats what you want to do please take it to pm (im happy to discuss religeon), but dont be suprised if you get banned from here because the person your pm'ing doesnt approve

thanks and sorry for the double post, just thought it deserved a post of its own </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know you live there but really leave your 1/2 hidden religeous bigatry at the door please, and lets stick to the history that means the bits you like and the bits you dont

its not a black and white issue, its shades of grey on both sides of the fence

MDS_Geist
03-20-2007, 11:50 AM
Noobfun, I think you've missed something.

Yes, there was indeed a fledgling government in place to govern the State of Israel they hoped would result in the 1947 vote. It was a very small state, and the Labor Zionists were okay with that. The USA did not begin supporting Israel and certainly not militarily until the 1960's. The weapons the British promised them never ended up in Jewish hands but largely in Muslim hands.

The vote was held, the vote passed, and the Arab world went to war. They lost. I'm talking about what Israelis call the War of Independence and what Arabs refer to as al naqba (it refers to both the vote and the war).

The 6 day war was twenty years later in 1967.

Hamas is indeed a terrorist organization. For that matter, so is Fatah. They have quite a few weapons, and that includes heavy machine guns, rockets and no small quantity of explosives.

Your argument about the fact that Israel has more advanced weapons systems is a very flawed one, and here is why. Israel is an actual nation with borders to defend against other nations. Granted, that their conventional capability is sufficient to expunge all life from the areas under PLO/PA/Hamas control. Yet they have not done so. This alone is rather indicative of the difference between Israel and their enemies, since the terrorists clearly have no compunction about attacking Israeli civilians as often as they can do so and state for the record that their goal is to kill all the Israelis.

Regarding WMD and Israel. While I do believe that Israel has nuclear weapons, no one knows this for certain. They do not possess chemical and biological weapons unlike Syria and the former government of Iraq. Unlike North Korea and Iran, Israel also hasn't threatened to use any theoretical weapons on anyone.

Hamas hospitals are unequivocally not open to Jews. By and large they aren't so open to Christians either, since under Hamas rule Arab Christians are fleeing. This past Christmas dozens of Bethlehem Christians told me and others in very hushed tones that they are leaving as soon as they can. Their daughters have been raped and their businesses burned by Hamas "policemen." The Tiabeh brewery, one of the most successful Palestinian business enterprises has been attacked multiple times.

Hamas does not maintain any kind of working infrastructure. They have mosques and social services centers which also double as recruiting centers. They have done nothing to collect the trash, fix the roads, provide power or clean water. Theses are all things that Israel did and offered to help the PA do on their own so they would no longer be dependent on Israel. They refused.

There are not daily airstrikes against anyone, despite constant rocket barrages from Gaza.

I'd love to discuss this with you further, but I think you do yourself a disservice by not knowing what is going on there.

This is twice you have accused me of some form of bigotry, and not only is that false but it is unfair. I've spent a tremendous amount of time in the Middle East and know very well what I am talking about. If you think that the truth is bigoted, that is unfortunate. But please don't make assumptions about what I think and feel since you're not going to be accurate. It's really simply courtesy.

There are very good reasons why parts of Israel are First World while most of the Arab world is Third World. And it has nothing to do with bigotry. There are indeed many shades of grey, but I think you're using the wrong brush.

noobfun
03-20-2007, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MDS_Geist:


Your argument about the fact that Israel has more advanced weapons systems is a very flawed one, and here is why. Israel is an actual nation with borders to defend against other nations.


Regarding WMD and Israel. While I do believe that Israel has nuclear weapons, no one knows this for certain. They do not possess chemical and biological weapons unlike Syria and the former government of Iraq. Unlike North Korea and Iran, Israel also hasn't threatened to use any theoretical weapons on anyone.


There are not daily airstrikes against anyone, despite constant rocket barrages from Gaza.

I'd love to discuss this with you further, but I think you do yourself a disservice by not knowing what is going on there.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so the usa hasnt vetoed every sanction brought to the un that would slow the arrival of arms into israel?

why is israel a nation and not palestine? .... israel refuse to aknowledge it, the reasons maybe diverse and many but an interesting aspect of this is israel isnt subject to international law concerning cross border shootings, armed incursions and airstrikes

the supposed wmd's? first gulf war, sadam threatened to deploy scuds against israel, isreals response was to let it be know that it would retaliate with its nuclear capabilites. thast why the USA deployed so many patriot missle systems in israel to protect it as long as israel didnt use its nuclear capabilities

i cant remember the gentlemans name but he broke the silence and spoke to the world press informing them of the nuclear biological and chemical weapons isreal had, he was then tried as a traitor to the state and spent a long time in prison for it. if i could remeber his name id give more details and a few links sorry

and israel refuses to allow UN inspectors near any of its facilities thats why the only proof we have of them was what was released by the above gentleman

iraq hasnt had serious capabilites for chemical warfare since after the first gulf war. all the early finds of chemical warheads were old damaged corroded and pretty much useless. it couldnt sell them didnt have the chemical/biological agents to arm them so just shoved them in storage to rot(most every country has chemical capabilities its cheaper and easier then nuclear and biological)

im not saying hamas has a perfect human rights record past or present no one has including my goverment

check your history for the late 80's early 90's as i say near weekly if not daily airstrikes against military and police buildings

i dont know all the details i never claimed to, and im willing to learn

im also open to learning both sides of the argument ...

funny thing about the truth, theres many of them so declairing somthing the truth is ridiculous notion

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the fighting in Israel is not at all what you present and Jews most distinctly do not hate Muslims. Sadly the feeling is generally not reciprocated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Since Islam spread violently throughout the whole of the Middle East, much or North Africa and even part of Europe </div></BLOCKQUOTE> just the same as pretty much every religeon

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">something that the Syrians have both less interest and competence in </div></BLOCKQUOTE> less interest maybe but less able?

apart from your comment on the brilliance of the quran, pretty much everything else youve posted hints at all muslims hate jews, all muslims want to destroy us,

then ignoring anything that paints israel in a less then perfect light

MDS_Geist
03-20-2007, 04:31 PM
I'll go line by line to be clearer since it would be too easy to foster further misunderstandings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
so the usa hasnt vetoed every sanction brought to the un that would slow the arrival of arms into israel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Partially true, but functionally irrelevant for several reasons.
1: Many of the binding UNSC resolutions have been motivated by anti-Semitism not any actual issues. Having Syria, Cuba or Sudan advance a resolution based on a new found concern for human rights is laughable.
2: Arms arriving into Israel isn't much of an issue. Israel is one of the largest arms exporters in the world. Last time I checked they were number three, directly behind the US (2) and Russia (1).
3: The arms that are imported into Israel are in many cases basic airframes. For example, the newest Israeli warplane is based on an F-16 airframe but just about everything else is Israeli.
4: At this point we're using their stuff. You might have missed it depending on the news sources you generally use, but a few years ago the al-Husseini al-Tikriti regime tried to make a claim that Israel was really the one invading them because of Israeli components in a seeker head.

But if it helps, the US has in fact not vetoed all resolutions against Israel.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
why is israel a nation and not palestine? ....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is simply a fact on the ground. There is a nation called Israel. There is not now nor has there ever been an independent national entity called Palestine.

At the present moment, the main reason why there is no nation called Palestine is because the Palestinians haven't made good faith efforts towards creating one alongside Israel. Don't forget how embarrassed Mubarak was in 1993 and Clinton in 2001. Had Arafat actually negotiated in good faith, there would right now be a nation called Palestine existing peacefully alongside Israel. Now it has only moved further away from that ever being a reality. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
israel refuse to aknowledge it, the reasons maybe diverse and many but an interesting aspect of this is israel isnt subject to international law concerning cross border shootings, armed incursions and airstrikes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Israel is as subject to International Law as any other nation. Effectively this means as much as they are interested in being. If you look at the incident history, you will find that Israeli actions are by and large reactions. Were there no terrorism against Israelis then Israel would not take reprisal actions.

What is particularly interesting is this focus on Israel. They are far from a dictatorship like all of their neighbors nor do they practice apartheid like Saudi Arabia does. Yet they seem to be the focus far more than any other nation.

You also seem to have this bit backwards. Israel does indeed acknowledge the Palestinian leadership and gave them control over large areas. However, the Palestinian leadership and the majority of the Arab and even Muslim world refuse to acknowledge Israel and Israel's right to exist. Israel is the nation that is trying very hard to give the Palestinian Arabs a new state of their own.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
the supposed wmd's? first gulf war, sadam threatened to deploy scuds against israel, isreals response was to let it be know that it would retaliate with its nuclear capabilites. thast why the USA deployed so many patriot missle systems in israel to protect it as long as israel didnt use its nuclear capabilities </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite.
First, Saddam did launch Scud missiles at Israel.
Second, it was the United States and not Israel who said that attacks with WMD would be met in kind (The Bush Doctrine). Since the only kind of WMD in the active US arsenal are nuclear, that was not a small threat.
Third, The US deployed Patriot Missile batteries to Israel for multiple reasons, primarily because the US recognized that Hussein's goal was to provoke an Israeli reprisal against Iraq therefore allowing Hussein to claim to be the target of "Zionist Aggression" and rally the Arab world behind him. Don't forget that his rhetoric about being a modern day Salah ah-Din (nice link to the game isn't it) wasn't just rhetoric. He was one of the last if not the last Arab nationalists.
Fourth, Israel pledged to the US to forbear as long as possible in order to allow the US to hold our coalition together. No other nation would be asked or expected to do any such thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
i cant remember the gentlemans name but he broke the silence and spoke to the world press informing them of the nuclear biological and chemical weapons isreal had, he was then tried as a traitor to the state and spent a long time in prison for it. if i could remeber his name id give more details and a few links sorry </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the man you are talking about, but your information is inaccurate since there are no chemical or biological weapons involved - israel has none. He was a technician at Israel's French built nuclear reactor. He committed treason by taking pictures and selling them to the foreign press. He did not confirm nuclear weapons but he speculated about them. He then spent 18 years in prison for treason.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
and israel refuses to allow UN inspectors near any of its facilities thats why the only proof we have of them was what was released by the above gentleman </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both Israel and France have acknowledged the reactor. Both have also acknowledged that it cold theoretically be used to produce some amounts of weapons grade material. Its existence is not much of a secret nor is its location. Whether or not Israel has nuclear weapons is another matter entirely and a purely speculative one. They have a policy of "nuclear ambiguity," and generally a rather effective one. They are not a signatore to the NPT and therefore are not bound by it.

Given the relationship between Israel and the UN it is not surprising that Israel isn't interested in having the UN at a highly secret facility. More to the point, since Israel hasn't threatened anyone the way that Iran or North Korea (or broken treaties) has it is far less of an issue.

Conservative estimates are that Israel has between 50-200 nuclear weapons and has had them since the middle 1960's. Some estimates suggest that Israel may have as many as 400 warheads. Israel was never closer to destruction than they were in the 1973 surprise attack (The Yom Kippur War to Israelis and the Ramamdan War to Arabs) and they did not use nuclear weapons then.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
iraq hasnt had serious capabilites for chemical warfare since after the first gulf war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in terms of production no. But the problem was verifying the destruction of their prior capabilities. That is some very, very nasty stuff that isn't easily disposed of and leaves traces after it is. Those traces were lacking and there are still large numbers of chemical and biological agents that are unaccounted for. That is a bad thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
all the early finds of chemical warheads were old damaged corroded and pretty much useless. it couldnt sell them didnt have the chemical/biological agents to arm them so just shoved them in storage to rot(most every country has chemical capabilities its cheaper and easier then nuclear and biological) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not accurate. We have found large numbers of stable binary artillery shells and other chemical weapons. Some of it is old, but much of it was still functional.

Bear in mind that "chemical capabilities" means different things. US troops have not been using tear gas on rioters because we won't break chemical weapons laws. CS is nothing like VX, so you need to make a distinction.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
im not saying hamas has a perfect human rights record past or present no one has including my goverment </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, genocidal terrorist groups usually don't. Does your government have genocide written into its charter?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
check your history for the late 80's early 90's as i say near weekly if not daily airstrikes against military and police buildings </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, and I know that you are wrong. Here is how: Israel signed the Oslo accords in 1993. That created the "Palestinian police," gave the PLO legitimacy in the peace process, gave them more arms along with the obligation to works towards peace, abandon violence as a strategy and tactic and stop terrorism. When they failed to do so, Israel acted. The general strikes against the PLO paramilitary forces began after Arafat walked away from Camp David and launched his terrorist war. This was 2001. Since the PLO police were in fact fighting Israel and taking part in terrorist attacks, Israel acted against them.

Please note that "Palestinian Police" could refer to any of the 17 or so "official" paramilitary groups that Arafat controlled directly including Force 17, Fatah Hawks and the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
i dont know all the details i never claimed to, and im willing to learn </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone actually knows all of the details but I do the best I can. When I don't I defer to people more expert than I am.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:im also open to learning both sides of the argument ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you think I know so much about the situation? Precisely because I look at all the sides of the situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
funny thing about the truth, theres many of them so declairing somthing the truth is ridiculous notion </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting point about relativism, but doesn't actually work in real life. For example, I know to be truth that Hamas will never recognize the right of Israel to exist. Hamas spokepeople and leaders even say that fairly often.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
just the same as pretty much every religeon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually that is not at all the case. Christianity was not spread by the sword, but was later used as a reason for violent expansionism. Judaism we never spread by the sword. Buddhism was never spread by the sword.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
less interest maybe but less able? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without question less able. They don't have a corps of trained people nor have they invested the time and money it takes to become skilled at it. I've been on archaeological digs, and it is very, very complex work.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
apart from your comment on the brilliance of the quran, pretty much everything else youve posted hints at all muslims hate jews, all muslims want to destroy us, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is the "us" here? If you note, I never made any such claims nor even implied them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noobfun:
then ignoring anything that paints israel in a less then perfect light </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very silly assumption and certainly not supported by any statement I have made here. No nation or individual is perfect. However, you were presenting incorrect information I thought you might have an interest in learning more.

edit: Fixed a bad quote box

chewie1890
03-20-2007, 05:01 PM
Can't go anywhere in this forum without having to read through full page posts that aren't even about the topic anymore... Sad.

wirelessfetus
03-20-2007, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chewie1890:
Can't go anywhere in this forum without having to read through full page posts that aren't even about the topic anymore... Sad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

aw, but politics are so much fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

esecially when they're backed by religious tensions!

MDS_Geist
03-20-2007, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wirelessfetus:
esecially when they're backed by religious tensions! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I try and get a massage at least once per week - it gets rid of all my religious tension. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

chewie1890
03-20-2007, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wirelessfetus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chewie1890:
Can't go anywhere in this forum without having to read through full page posts that aren't even about the topic anymore... Sad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

aw, but politics are so much fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

esecially when they're backed by religious tensions! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MDS_Geist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wirelessfetus:
esecially when they're backed by religious tensions! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I try and get a massage at least once per week - it gets rid of all my religious tension. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its nice to know at least that people can still get jokes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MDS_Geist
03-20-2007, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chewie1890:
Its nice to know at least that people can still get jokes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a sad day when people go out without a sense of humour, and to go online without one would be just downright silly.