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Wispah
08-31-2008, 03:30 PM
Suppose I'm flying and I put the aircraft level. I find that the plane always starts to slowly pull up so that, without my input, it would keep pointing higher and higher until it either stalled or did a loop (given that it's slow, likely the former).

I try using trim to account for this but it's very difficult. It means that flying long distances is just unbearable as I am constantly fighting to keep the plane level and and emd up bleeding speed away and trailing behind my wingmates. I have to put it on autopilot for any travel time!

Is this just how flying is or is my game/joystick not working properly?

I have a Saitek Cyborg Evo and I'm playing 1946.

Wispah
08-31-2008, 03:30 PM
Suppose I'm flying and I put the aircraft level. I find that the plane always starts to slowly pull up so that, without my input, it would keep pointing higher and higher until it either stalled or did a loop (given that it's slow, likely the former).

I try using trim to account for this but it's very difficult. It means that flying long distances is just unbearable as I am constantly fighting to keep the plane level and and emd up bleeding speed away and trailing behind my wingmates. I have to put it on autopilot for any travel time!

Is this just how flying is or is my game/joystick not working properly?

I have a Saitek Cyborg Evo and I'm playing 1946.

b2spirita
08-31-2008, 03:34 PM
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs

GatorSub1942
08-31-2008, 03:34 PM
Same stick, same game, same problem. Isn't there a way to auto-trim the plane?

thefruitbat
08-31-2008, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GatorSub1942:
Same stick, same game, same problem. Isn't there a way to auto-trim the plane? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isnt a stick or game problem, its yours...

Trim your plane, and no problem. I expect WWII pilots would of liked auto trim too, but alas...

fruitbat

Aaron_GT
08-31-2008, 04:10 PM
Some of the planes can easily require a couple of dozen clicks of trim depending on power setting to get them trimmed.

b2spirita
08-31-2008, 04:13 PM
Try setting your elevator trim to your mousewheel if you have one.

GatorSub1942
08-31-2008, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Try setting your elevator trim to your mousewheel if you have one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that.

GatorSub1942
08-31-2008, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GatorSub1942:
Same stick, same game, same problem. Isn't there a way to auto-trim the plane? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isnt a stick or game problem, its yours...

Trim your plane, and no problem. I expect WWII pilots would of liked auto trim too, but alas...

fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a game. So if there's something that's getting in the way of someone's enjoyment, it should be able to be automated or turned off. Just like spins etc can be turned off.

K_Freddie
08-31-2008, 06:21 PM
There are many difficulty settings that you can use.
-When offline you have control of these settings
-When online the Server determines these settings, which you can view the same way as if you're playing offline - you cannot change this.

As a note: This sim model is modelled as real as it can get for a computer game. It's light years ahead of any other flight sim with regard to aerodynamic modelling, graphics..etc - quiet simply because the team that developed this sim are aeronautical engineers and pilots, not just PC programmers/developers.

As a matter of experience, since the late 80's, the best dedicated software has ALWAYS come from the USSR, period http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Wispah
08-31-2008, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As a matter of experience, since the late 80's, the best dedicated software has ALWAYS come from the USSR, period http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we take 'late 80s' as starting in 1987, then there have only been four years since then in which such software could have been developed, as the USSR ceased to exist in 1991.

Do you mean the Russian Federation perhaps? :P

To others, thanks for the advice. I guess I'll just keep messing with the trim. Is it usually a case of setting it once and leaving it, or does it require regular/constant adjustment?

b2spirita
08-31-2008, 06:35 PM
Constant, especially if yo change speeds. Also remember that while nearly all planes have elevtor trim, fewer have alerion (sp) and rudder trim.

berg417448
08-31-2008, 06:36 PM
Pilot Bud Anderson on constant use of trim in combat while flying the P-51:


"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.
It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat."

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

M_Gunz
08-31-2008, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wispah:
Suppose I'm flying and I put the aircraft level. I find that the plane always starts to slowly pull up so that, without my input, it would keep pointing higher and higher until it either stalled or did a loop (given that it's slow, likely the former).

I try using trim to account for this but it's very difficult. It means that flying long distances is just unbearable as I am constantly fighting to keep the plane level and and emd up bleeding speed away and trailing behind my wingmates. I have to put it on autopilot for any travel time!

Is this just how flying is or is my game/joystick not working properly?

I have a Saitek Cyborg Evo and I'm playing 1946. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to trim more as your plane speeds up. It has to do with the faster you go, the more
lift your wings make at the same angle of attack your wings make to your flight path.

If you are going to be speeding up it is good to get the nose down a little extra. Not only
will you need to trim less times but you will also speed up quicker.

WTE_Galway
08-31-2008, 06:50 PM
Just a minor historical note about in game trim.

Trim in game has a delay - after you click the button there is a gap in time before it does anything.

Click the button and a second or two later you get the effect.

It was not always like that.

However complaints on the forum from the online crowd that people with Hotas setups (that allowed trim mapped to a slider) were gaining unfair advantages led to a massive (and amusing) flame war with people banned left right and center.

As a consequence trim in the game now has a delay to "simulate" the effect of slowly turning a trim wheel.

This is the main reason trim in IL2 is hard to use.

K_Freddie
08-31-2008, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wispah:
If we take 'late 80s' as starting in 1987, then there have only been four years since then in which such software could have been developed, as the USSR ceased to exist in 1991.

Do you mean the Russian Federation perhaps? :P
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you wish be be Politically correct, Yes.. yet it's still the same area and the same people, no matter the area designation. This is a broad brush as I have no intention of getting onvolved with the intracies of particular areas
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VW-IceFire
08-31-2008, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GatorSub1942:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GatorSub1942:
Same stick, same game, same problem. Isn't there a way to auto-trim the plane? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isnt a stick or game problem, its yours...

Trim your plane, and no problem. I expect WWII pilots would of liked auto trim too, but alas...

fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a game. So if there's something that's getting in the way of someone's enjoyment, it should be able to be automated or turned off. Just like spins etc can be turned off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe if you turn off some of the other flight modeling settings in the difficulty it will lessen the need for trim. I'm not sure if it ever makes it go away...

Was one of the first things I set about learning when I started with the game. Had the same questions asked here and just started figuring it out. Not saying everyone has to...I do believe this can be turned off...but its probably a part of another setting.

Definitely no auto trim available.

GatorSub1942
09-01-2008, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Try setting your elevator trim to your mousewheel if you have one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't do that, I tried. That would've made things a lot easier.

buzzsaw1939
09-01-2008, 11:39 PM
Plug in a second mouse and try it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

lesterhawksby
09-02-2008, 03:06 AM
It seems very difficult to trim correctly with the keyboard. In particular, it seems a bit (EDIT: *opposite-of-fine-grained*; let me try c-o-a-r-s-e-grained...), so it's hard to get the "just right" position rather than a very slight drift.

I don't have a sophisticated control setup but my (otherwise very basic) joystick does have a throttle tab on the back - when I mapped it to elevator trim and went back to keyboard throttle, flying got a whole lot easier. Might be worth a try if you have a similar setup.

M_Gunz
09-02-2008, 03:47 AM
Same here though on advice I mapped a stick hat to trim keys but it's still maddening.
One solution for pitch trim is let the trim fall a little bit high and then lower power
just a tinch and it will be right.

Wildnoob
09-02-2008, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ?

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is tricky, but it can be done, don't despair! The main thing is that this is a complicated skill that must be practiced! Remember pilots in WW2 had hundreds of hours practicing.

A few things to keep in mind: If your plane only has elevator trim (Like the BF-109 for example), the plane was typically designed to fly level at a particular speed, cruising speed usually. If you were flying faster or slower, there would be some yaw and roll that would need to be compensated for.

If your plane has all three trim controls, for me, I find that first I get the plane flying level with the stick and wait for the plane to settle into a constant airspeed and use the rudder to center the slip ball indicator. Then I use the elevator trim to get the plane flying level. Next I use the rudder trim to eliminate the need for using the rudder, and after that, if necessary, I use the roll trim to hold the wings level. Sometimes if I really botch things I like to be able to use the neutralize trim buttons to reset all the trim states to zero, and try again. This is definitely something that takes practice, especially so in the middle of combat when your attitude, altitude and airspeed are always constantly changing!

Getting the plane in such a state that it will fly absolutely perfectly straight for minutes on end is pretty difficult. Remember that there are a whole host of various forces acting on the plane: drag, lift, gravity,torque, p-factor, asymetrical propwash and that all these forces are acting at different parts of the airframe such that it always wants to move and rotate in response to these forces. These forces change with airspeed, elevation, atitude and so your trim settings are constantly being changed to keep your plane in a hands-off flying setting.

Remember that this "game" is designed to be a "simulator". Is flying a real plane something that can be picked up in an afternoon by trial and error? This game is designed to still be a challenge to those who are knowledgeable about flight and practice regularly and have played for many years. If it was an easy arcade-style flying game, the IL-2 line of games would not have the lasting popularity they have had for the past 6 years.

If you are finding things too difficult, definitely remove some aspects of the flight model in the difficulty section and turn them back on as you get better, but keep in mind: this will only re-enforce the development of bad flying habits, and when you feel the urge to fly online to test yourself on the public dogfight servers or as part of a squadron, 99% of them fly with every aspect of the flight model turned on.

Good luck!

Stingray

Wildnoob
09-02-2008, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is tricky, but it can be done, don't despair! The main thing is that this is a complicated skill that must be practiced! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I are trying pratic making corrections with the stick. I manage to advance a little, but it really take many concentrarion.

as a perfeccionist, I can't give up of keep trying.

some friends going start to play IL2 with me soon, and I are trying everything to be a good squadron leader from then. I gonna training then as they never going to say things like "the Mustang and FW-190 are porked"

because when I introduce these aircraft for then I gonna introduce the fundamentals on how to use then correctly.

but it's really sad that I can't fly in a constant altitude with confort, because my favorite thing in IL2 is just the fligth simulation, not the combat.

good or not I gonna keep training, maybe with some more pratic I gonna be able to fly more correctly.

by the way, thanks for your reply! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is tricky, but it can be done, don't despair! The main thing is that this is a complicated skill that must be practiced! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I are trying pratic making corrections with the stick. I manage to advance a little, but it really take many concentrarion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to make sure you understand, you must be doing the corrections with the trim, not the stick. Go to the control option page in IL-2, and make sure you have the elevator trim, rudder trim, and aileron trim keys set, you need to have the "increase", "decrease" and "neutral" trim settings mapped for each of the control surfaces, and that you know what the mappings are.

Then, experiment with each of those settings to make sure you understand the response of the aircraft to each type of trim. Remember that there will be a little bit of a delay from when you set the trim to when the plane will react. As an exercise, try to fly your plane, and maybe even land your plane by controlling only with the trim!

Since your interests lie more in the flying side rather than the combat side, you might really enjoy and benefit from some formal training. The Joint Ops combat school has a Basic Flight School coming up, there you can learn a lot of the basics of flying and get a chance to practice navigation, calling to air traffic control, flying in standard airfield patterns, take off, landings, taxiing, formation flying, etc. There is a bit of combat involved, but not too much, check them out at http://www.joint-ops.com

The next Basic Flight School starts on Sunday, October 5th, and the classes typically run for 3 hours 3 days a week for 2.5 weeks, for a total of about 22 hours.

The courses put on at Joint Ops are a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. If anyone says, "I don't need that, I already know how to land and take off", just imagine landing a BF-109 in a heavy cross wind while 3 instructors and ten students are all watching your every move... pressures on! Lots of fun though.

Stingray

Aaron_GT
09-02-2008, 01:23 PM
What would be nice is more visual feedback on where the trim is. Do the trim wheels in the cockpit move?

Wildnoob
09-02-2008, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is tricky, but it can be done, don't despair! The main thing is that this is a complicated skill that must be practiced! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I are trying pratic making corrections with the stick. I manage to advance a little, but it really take many concentrarion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to make sure you understand, you must be doing the corrections with the trim, not the stick. Go to the control option page in IL-2, and make sure you have the elevator trim, rudder trim, and aileron trim keys set, you need to have the "increase", "decrease" and "neutral" trim settings mapped for each of the control surfaces, and that you know what the mappings are.

Then, experiment with each of those settings to make sure you understand the response of the aircraft to each type of trim. Remember that there will be a little bit of a delay from when you set the trim to when the plane will react. As an exercise, try to fly your plane, and maybe even land your plane by controlling only with the trim!

Since your interests lie more in the flying side rather than the combat side, you might really enjoy and benefit from some formal training. The Joint Ops combat school has a Basic Flight School coming up, there you can learn a lot of the basics of flying and get a chance to practice navigation, calling to air traffic control, flying in standard airfield patterns, take off, landings, taxiing, formation flying, etc. There is a bit of combat involved, but not too much, check them out at http://www.joint-ops.com

The next Basic Flight School starts on Sunday, October 5th, and the classes typically run for 3 hours 3 days a week for 2.5 weeks, for a total of about 22 hours.

The courses put on at Joint Ops are a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. If anyone says, "I don't need that, I already know how to land and take off", just imagine landing a BF-109 in a heavy cross wind while 3 instructors and ten students are all watching your every move... pressures on! Lots of fun though.

Stingray </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much for your dedication in give me advice Stingray. I don't have words, all I can say is thank you.

I have elevator trim mapped to the mouse wheel. already hear that is the best axis for it - do you agreed that is at least acceptable ?

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
What would be nice is more visual feedback on where the trim is. Do the trim wheels in the cockpit move? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have wondered this too, it does not appear the case that the trim wheels move, or that there is any indication other than the behavior of the plane.

The trim setting however is available through the DeviceLink, and is available through the DeviceLink even when playing online, and have seen someone write a plugin for the X-52 joystick that displayed the current trim settings on the X-52 MFD LCD display (see this thread: http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?t=11887)

That is all I know, perhaps someone knows more about this, then I would like to hear it!

Stingray

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Its probably trim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tabs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"a pilot-adjustible trim the trim tab allows the pilot to reduce (to zero, when used correctly) the manual force required to maintain such position."

I know it, I KNOW IT!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but why in IL2 I are not being able to do this ?

please, can someone give me some tips to achive such level state ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is tricky, but it can be done, don't despair! The main thing is that this is a complicated skill that must be practiced! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I are trying pratic making corrections with the stick. I manage to advance a little, but it really take many concentrarion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to make sure you understand, you must be doing the corrections with the trim, not the stick. Go to the control option page in IL-2, and make sure you have the elevator trim, rudder trim, and aileron trim keys set, you need to have the "increase", "decrease" and "neutral" trim settings mapped for each of the control surfaces, and that you know what the mappings are.

Then, experiment with each of those settings to make sure you understand the response of the aircraft to each type of trim. Remember that there will be a little bit of a delay from when you set the trim to when the plane will react. As an exercise, try to fly your plane, and maybe even land your plane by controlling only with the trim!

Since your interests lie more in the flying side rather than the combat side, you might really enjoy and benefit from some formal training. The Joint Ops combat school has a Basic Flight School coming up, there you can learn a lot of the basics of flying and get a chance to practice navigation, calling to air traffic control, flying in standard airfield patterns, take off, landings, taxiing, formation flying, etc. There is a bit of combat involved, but not too much, check them out at http://www.joint-ops.com

The next Basic Flight School starts on Sunday, October 5th, and the classes typically run for 3 hours 3 days a week for 2.5 weeks, for a total of about 22 hours.

The courses put on at Joint Ops are a lot of fun, and you learn a lot. If anyone says, "I don't need that, I already know how to land and take off", just imagine landing a BF-109 in a heavy cross wind while 3 instructors and ten students are all watching your every move... pressures on! Lots of fun though.

Stingray </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much for your dedication in give me advice Stingray. I don't have words, all I can say is thank you.

I have elevator trim mapped to the mouse wheel. already hear that is the best axis for it - do you agreed that is at least acceptable ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never tried the mouse wheel, I use the X-52, but if it works for you, then that is all that matters! The mouse wheel seems like a good choice for it, the only trouble is that it requires you to move one of your hands to the mouse to do it, and if you have a suitable control on your joystick or throttle (if you have a HOTAS stick), then that would be better. But if not, stick with what works!

I think its also good to have the trim mapped to a keyboard command, like the arrow keys, this way you can give exactly 'one click' of trim, very small adjustments if you need to.

Good luck and good flying!

Stingray

Wildnoob
09-02-2008, 01:37 PM
I loved the site, it's really excellent.

I would love to pass by the fligth school, but my internet is not good for online games. altougth soon I gonna have a good conection.

my skills in formation fligth are poor, but at least I can fly with AI most times.

Wildnoob
09-02-2008, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
'one click' of trim, very small adjustments if you need to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually I found that the mouse wheel is quiet good, but I think I never had really trimmed any aicraft correctly.

you may find the mouse wheel strange and I can say the same about the keyboard keys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

of course, we both probably are using then at already long time, so it's naturally normal.

I like you, you are a person that is very determined in help pilot's with problems. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

thefruitbat
09-02-2008, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
'one click' of trim, very small adjustments if you need to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually I found that the mouse wheel is quiet good, but I think I never had really trimmed any aicraft correctly.

you may find the mouse wheel strange and I can say the same about the keyboard keys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

of course, we both probably are using then at already long time, so it's naturally normal.

I like you, you are a person that is very determined in help pilot's with problems. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you use trackir, you can map your hat switch on your joystick for trim, works well. I think rotarys such as on the x52 and ch products are the best though.

fruitbat

Xiolablu3
09-02-2008, 02:01 PM
WHo needs trim? Just compensate naturally with your stick.

M_Gunz
09-02-2008, 02:34 PM
You can't hold your stick perfectly steady is why not.

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 02:53 PM
Does doing it by the stick result in any more drag? Because you are using the larger control surfaces you disturbing more airflow over the wings. However, the result is the same: level flight, so the force balance must be the same, hence the drag might be the same. I am not sure, anyone want to chime in (M_Gunz?)

buzzsaw1939
09-02-2008, 03:01 PM
good question Stingray.. I would say no!..the trim tab would be doing the same funtion as stick pressure, just more steady than your hand.

Stingray333
09-02-2008, 03:12 PM
ok buzzsaw1939,

I'll just chime in that from my own experiences that climbing using the trim seems quicker than climbing by pulling back the stick to the same angle.

However, I'll be the first to admit that I have not rigorously conducted a scientific study of this, and the results I notice may be purely psychological, as pulling the stick back might only feel slower because I am actively doing something (pulling back on the stick) and so the climb just 'feels' to take longer.

Stingray

R_Target
09-03-2008, 05:29 AM
I use X-52 throttle rotaries for trim, and straight-n-level hands-off flight is no problem on a plane properly equipped.

IL2 JoyControl is a must for tweaking sensitivities.

M_Gunz
09-03-2008, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
Does doing it by the stick result in any more drag? Because you are using the larger control surfaces you disturbing more airflow over the wings. However, the result is the same: level flight, so the force balance must be the same, hence the drag might be the same. I am not sure, anyone want to chime in (M_Gunz?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Buzz sez! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Trim only changes stick forces, it's the same control surfaces acting... I wuz sure you knew!

With the shortness of our joysticks even a minor muscle vibe will amount to flutter.
That's another reason I use 40% Filter, to smooth any of that out and I think it works!
The smoother you control a plane, even IRL, the more efficient it flies.
The results are like compound interest.

That all stated, I look forward to more from the guys who have built the long sticks.

Wildnoob
09-03-2008, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
IL2 JoyControl is a must for tweaking sensitivities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you improve your trim sensitivity using joy control ?

please, if you can describe the results you obtain I woud be glad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ask the same for everybody else who use it.

Stingray333
09-03-2008, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
Does doing it by the stick result in any more drag? Because you are using the larger control surfaces you disturbing more airflow over the wings. However, the result is the same: level flight, so the force balance must be the same, hence the drag might be the same. I am not sure, anyone want to chime in (M_Gunz?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Buzz sez! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Trim only changes stick forces, it's the same control surfaces acting... I wuz sure you knew!

With the shortness of our joysticks even a minor muscle vibe will amount to flutter.
That's another reason I use 40% Filter, to smooth any of that out and I think it works!
The smoother you control a plane, even IRL, the more efficient it flies.
The results are like compound interest.

That all stated, I look forward to more from the guys who have built the long sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason I asked was because I didn't know! I am not a real life pilot, only an amateur virtual one, and with terminology like "trim tabs" and "secondary control surfaces" that seem to imply that there are additional control surfaces on the wings and elevators soley for the trim control I wasn't sure.

Stingray

buzzsaw1939
09-03-2008, 12:45 PM
Interesting about the filter thing Gunz, I'll have to tinker with that!

I_KG100_Prien
09-03-2008, 01:25 PM
The trim dials in the cockpit do move- in many of the A/C.

I have not sat down and looked in the pit of every plane to see if the dials move when you adjust trim, so don't have a comprehensive list.

Some even have a trim indicator for certain surfaces.

FW 190/Spitfire both have one for elevator trim..

Mossie's rudder trim is just below and to the right of the gunsight- It's the dial and also indicates how much trim you have input.. On the left side of the pit just below the window is the elevator trim indicator. It's huge- can't miss it. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Also- if you are trimming your rudder watch the rudder pedals, they move according to your trim input.

Best thing to do is look around the cockpit of your favorite planes and see what moves and what doesn't when you manipulate certain controls.

Just another aspect of "know thy plane".

M_Gunz
09-03-2008, 01:41 PM
109 trim wheel used to move... I ain't checked in a long while but it did since the start.

M_Gunz
09-03-2008, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
The reason I asked was because I didn't know! I am not a real life pilot, only an amateur virtual one, and with terminology like "trim tabs" and "secondary control surfaces" that seem to imply that there are additional control surfaces on the wings and elevators soley for the trim control I wasn't sure.

Stingray </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I *think* it's a case of you adjust the trim tab and wind/lift/drag on -it- puts force on the
control surface which you feel on the stick back through the linkages.

The control surface moving changes the AOA of the foil it is attached to, tailplane and rudder
are also wings. Even the prop blades are wings....

Also to remember that some trim tabs, like 109 rudder, are not adjusted from inside the plane
but still out there as set/bent by ground crew as adjustable rigging.

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-03-2008, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
Does doing it by the stick result in any more drag? Because you are using the larger control surfaces you disturbing more airflow over the wings. However, the result is the same: level flight, so the force balance must be the same, hence the drag might be the same. I am not sure, anyone want to chime in (M_Gunz?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Buzz sez! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Trim only changes stick forces, it's the same control surfaces acting... I wuz sure you knew!

With the shortness of our joysticks even a minor muscle vibe will amount to flutter.
That's another reason I use 40% Filter, to smooth any of that out and I think it works!
The smoother you control a plane, even IRL, the more efficient it flies.
The results are like compound interest.

That all stated, I look forward to more from the guys who have built the long sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason I asked was because I didn't know! I am not a real life pilot, only an amateur virtual one, and with terminology like "trim tabs" and "secondary control surfaces" that seem to imply that there are additional control surfaces on the wings and elevators soley for the trim control I wasn't sure.

Stingray </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some planes there are little tabs that are used to adjust the trim (the tabs are located on the control surface itself usually) but I'm not sure if this is modeled in il2.

Lol, m_gunz beat me to it.

M_Gunz
09-03-2008, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Interesting about the filter thing Gunz, I'll have to tinker with that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you ain't using it already then be prepared for a nice sur-prize! (spelling intentional!)

R_Target
09-03-2008, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
you improve your trim sensitivity using joy control ?

please, if you can describe the results you obtain I woud be glad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ask the same for everybody else who use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are my settings for rudder & elevator trim:

http://i37.tinypic.com/2ey84za.gif

http://i38.tinypic.com/xbw9kh.jpg

I still have to use a pretty light touch, but it's the best I've been able to get out of it. Most of the time, I usually trim out for about 220 knots IAS. I don't monkey around with it a lot when I'm in a fight, but I will trim nose up and rudder right for long climbs or slow maneuvers; and nose down and rudder left for long dives or fast maneuvering. Otherwise, I just kick in a little rudder to keep the ball centered.

Altamov_Steppes
09-03-2008, 10:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GatorSub1942:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
Try setting your elevator trim to your mousewheel if you have one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't do that, I tried. That would've made things a lot easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Using one mouse wheel generally means it also controls view. The problem then arises that when you trim with the mouse wheel you frequently disturb the view aspect and can end up looking sideways when you really want to keep looking forward.

As noted in a post above, a second mouse wheel or, as posted once by Feathered IV, a multi-function mouse can help imitate real life in the cockpit. I feel the mouse wheel does not approach a real life trim wheel (they are a graduated scale): however, one click of the mouse wheel has an effect but if (say elevator trim) is assigned to the mouse wheel it may take many virtual clicks to approximate a trim tab change that is actually achieved with far less movement than that which the mouse wheel revolves through in real life. I haven't thought through how to calibrate the mouse to match - if its at all possible.

Despite trim, you never fly 'hands off' for long except in cruise and even then you have to come back for minor adjustments to heading, altitude etc if you fly in full real difficulty settings (wind flutter, turbulence etc.). In cruise with straight and level trim it's possible to have a coffee while outbound to wherever for whatever or even have a meal. In diffidence to using trim in combat I sometimes have a cup of tea when I'm dogfighting (children please don't try this at home).

If your aircraft has variable pitch propellor function use it in cruise along with reduced throttle and it not only saves fuel but trim forces balance out easier on the airframe in the instance of full difficulty setting.

Wildnoob
09-04-2008, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
you improve your trim sensitivity using joy control ?

please, if you can describe the results you obtain I woud be glad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ask the same for everybody else who use it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are my settings for rudder & elevator trim:

http://i37.tinypic.com/2ey84za.gif

http://i38.tinypic.com/xbw9kh.jpg

I still have to use a pretty light touch, but it's the best I've been able to get out of it. Most of the time, I usually trim out for about 220 knots IAS. I don't monkey around with it a lot when I'm in a fight, but I will trim nose up and rudder right for long climbs or slow maneuvers; and nose down and rudder left for long dives or fast maneuvering. Otherwise, I just kick in a little rudder to keep the ball centered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much, R_Target.

I would not be able to test this rigth now, but when I test I'll gonna tell wat I think, and I think that your configurations going to be wounderful for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GatorSub1942
09-04-2008, 06:17 PM
Is 'Joy Control' part of IL2 1946, or something you have to d/l separately?

R_Target
09-04-2008, 07:11 PM
IL2 JoyControl is a separate utility. Available here at M4T: http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&c=53

R_Target
09-04-2008, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
thank you very much, R_Target.

I would not be able to test this rigth now, but when I test I'll gonna tell wat I think, and I think that your configurations going to be wounderful for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif