PDA

View Full Version : An Interesting Thing that happened on the way to Rzhev.



jamesblonde1979
08-05-2008, 08:03 PM
Greeting all, I don't get on here much lately but I had to share this today, you see I had a moment...

It was just a standard patrol in my good old 109F-4 "Yellow 8". 3000m near Rzhev to protect CarsGermColumnA, I never saw them but OKL assures us that they were down there on the steppe somewhere. The call came over the RT that bandits were in the area somewhere so I latched on to my Rotte leader and tried started searching. Sure enough I saw something, a lot of things actually. I became so distracted by various things that I lost "Yellow 7" is the swirling 450 km/h confusion and decided to get a bit of height. Up into the sun I went, keeping a sharp lookout to the rear when this Mig-3 angles in on me from 7'oclock, slightly high. (How the bastard got up there I'll never know) That green goo tracer zipped by on my port side where I would have been moments before. Missed me this time you lousy sod!

I broke into his attack and dropped a bit of flap to increase my climb and get behind him as you do. Next step, rolling scisscors and a prolongeds one at that. I think we went for about 7 or 8 corkscrews before I was able to latch on to his tail and there he was at 350m climbing in front of me, a sitting duck.

I closed to about 250m and let him have a burst, cannon strikes along his fulelage and port wing. I checked my six and closed in. At 100m I gave him a good burst and he started to burn. Pop went his canopy as I was applying a garnish to his dish from my twin 12.7's,

This is when it happened.

I was watching my MG rounds work their way past his cockpit to the engine when ti MiG pilot jumped clear and straight into the path of my fire.

Until this point I had been pretty impressed with myself but I was stunned, and not a little bit horrified as I watched this guy. I let go of the button and somehow he escaped, thank goodness.

This got me to thinking...

Damn I almost killed that guy. I felt sick to my stomach at what would have happened if I had just touched the rudder and let him have it. It would have been so easy.

It's a tough thing when you realise how deadly this game was. How deadly I am. What my actions could have brought about. This must be what people mean when they say "War is Hell."

I'll never look at this game in the same light again. I know it isn't real but it isn't much of a stretch to imagine what it would be like.

My feelings are so mixed up but I'll keep flying, They did and now I understand why.

The valiant. I'll raise a glass to their memory tonight and I hope some of you will join me.

I'll never forget watching that pilot as he came out of that MiG.

Sorry if this is incoherent or boring for some of you but I had to post it. It was one of the most humanizing experiences I have ever had.

Cheers

jamesblonde1979
08-05-2008, 08:03 PM
Greeting all, I don't get on here much lately but I had to share this today, you see I had a moment...

It was just a standard patrol in my good old 109F-4 "Yellow 8". 3000m near Rzhev to protect CarsGermColumnA, I never saw them but OKL assures us that they were down there on the steppe somewhere. The call came over the RT that bandits were in the area somewhere so I latched on to my Rotte leader and tried started searching. Sure enough I saw something, a lot of things actually. I became so distracted by various things that I lost "Yellow 7" is the swirling 450 km/h confusion and decided to get a bit of height. Up into the sun I went, keeping a sharp lookout to the rear when this Mig-3 angles in on me from 7'oclock, slightly high. (How the bastard got up there I'll never know) That green goo tracer zipped by on my port side where I would have been moments before. Missed me this time you lousy sod!

I broke into his attack and dropped a bit of flap to increase my climb and get behind him as you do. Next step, rolling scisscors and a prolongeds one at that. I think we went for about 7 or 8 corkscrews before I was able to latch on to his tail and there he was at 350m climbing in front of me, a sitting duck.

I closed to about 250m and let him have a burst, cannon strikes along his fulelage and port wing. I checked my six and closed in. At 100m I gave him a good burst and he started to burn. Pop went his canopy as I was applying a garnish to his dish from my twin 12.7's,

This is when it happened.

I was watching my MG rounds work their way past his cockpit to the engine when ti MiG pilot jumped clear and straight into the path of my fire.

Until this point I had been pretty impressed with myself but I was stunned, and not a little bit horrified as I watched this guy. I let go of the button and somehow he escaped, thank goodness.

This got me to thinking...

Damn I almost killed that guy. I felt sick to my stomach at what would have happened if I had just touched the rudder and let him have it. It would have been so easy.

It's a tough thing when you realise how deadly this game was. How deadly I am. What my actions could have brought about. This must be what people mean when they say "War is Hell."

I'll never look at this game in the same light again. I know it isn't real but it isn't much of a stretch to imagine what it would be like.

My feelings are so mixed up but I'll keep flying, They did and now I understand why.

The valiant. I'll raise a glass to their memory tonight and I hope some of you will join me.

I'll never forget watching that pilot as he came out of that MiG.

Sorry if this is incoherent or boring for some of you but I had to post it. It was one of the most humanizing experiences I have ever had.

Cheers

Tempelhof
08-05-2008, 08:17 PM
Bf 109F4 doesn't have any 12.7

And don't worry about this. Killing the pilot is never a bad idea. Perhaps he's a drunken Pokryshkin. If you don't kill him this day, the next day he'll come back and kill you. That's war.

b2spirita
08-06-2008, 02:44 AM
Yeah ive noticed this before, as i seem to have a knack for acedentally gettin them as they bail out. Always makes me feel bad.

rnzoli
08-06-2008, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tempelhof:
And don't worry about this. Killing the pilot is never a bad idea. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
10 pager, be sure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Perhaps he's a drunken Pokryshkin. If you don't kill him this day, the next day he'll come back and kill you. That's war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Or maybe he is just like you, a young bloke, who loves aviation, serves his country with his best effort, yes, would come back and shoot you down next day, but probably would let you bail, if you're in trouble. Maybe even give you "cover" from other fighters during that time. That's life, and that's above war.

Another point I would like to make in the beginning, is that AFAIK it's against the Geneva convetion to shoot at airmen leaving their aircraft in distress.

Finally, there were several people IRL, who fought very hard against the enemy aircrft, but when they saw the stricken pilot/crew in the other plane , humanity got the better of them and let them live. You don't need to be an mindless animal to win a war, you can win in smart ways too (experience and patience, innovative tactics/weapons, numerical superiority etc.).

Of course, hitting a bailing pilot by accident is a different story, this risk comes with everybody's job description.

Blutarski2004
08-06-2008, 05:28 AM
Interesting post. I think that the answer to the ethical question, in real terms, is whether or not you would be able to sleep at night after the act.

TinyTim
08-06-2008, 06:38 AM
Good read. Sometimes it makes me wonder what was it like in the twisted minds of the real fighter pilots that were hunting parachutists on purpose, regardless where they bailed.

unreasonable
08-06-2008, 08:59 AM
I wonder what would have happened if his body had hit your aircraft? I have "accidently" hit the strings of a parachute with my wingtip one one occasion, causing me to go into a spin, so I assume the body is modeled as a solid object that can damage your aircraft, like debris from exploding aircraft.

Personally I shoot down the parachutes if I have MG ammo and am over enemy territory. They are enemy combatants in uniform who have not surrendered. The Geneva conventions in force during WW2 did not explicitly cover the case of parachutists having been written before the days of flight, and there was much debate about whether or in what circumstances they should be protected. It was only after reaching the ground and surrendering that protection was uncontroversial (in the west), even if they are shot down after dropping incendiaries on civilians. Nowdays they are protected:


Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.

Article 42 -- Occupants of aircraft

1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

2. Upon reaching the ground in territory controlled by an adverse Party, a person who has parachuted from an aircraft in distress shall be given an opportunity to surrender before being made the object of attack, unless it is apparent that he is engaging in a hostile act.

3. Airborne troops are not protected by this Article.

Note that even today if you attack an enemy aircraft and miss, but the pilot is so shaken up that he bails anyway, you would be perfectly entitled to shoot him dangling in his chute!

mortoma
08-06-2008, 09:51 AM
I always try to shoot the pilots before their chute opens up. It's really good gunnery practice to try and hit them as they fall through the sky. Have done it hundreds of times. It's just a game and it's not a real person you're shooting for the love of God. Kind of fakey though, because when rounds hit their "virtual bodies" you get spark flashes as if they were the Tin Man from the wizard of Oz. Somehow I don't think clothing or body tissue would give off flashes from gun rounds!!

Maybe they are highly decorated heroes and I am hitting all the medals pinned to their chests??

rnzoli
08-06-2008, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
Note that even today if you attack an enemy aircraft and miss, but the pilot is so shaken up that he bails anyway, you would be perfectly entitled to shoot him dangling in his chute! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Congratulations, you win a free ticket to the war crimes tribunal in the Hague. If the pilot is so shaken up after your attack, he must have bailed from an aircraft in distress. (The aircraft does not have to be hit: it can be in distress or emergency because of other reasons too, such as engine malfuction, or pilot's loss of spatial orientation etc.)

TinyTim
08-06-2008, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
Personally I shoot down the parachutes if I have MG ammo and am over enemy territory. They are enemy combatants in uniform who have not surrendered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't bailing out kind of surrendering (meaning that he is abandoning the only weapon that can hurt you or your friendly forces)? How could he surrender if given a chance? Just wondering...

Stingray333
08-06-2008, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
Note that even today if you attack an enemy aircraft and miss, but the pilot is so shaken up that he bails anyway, you would be perfectly entitled to shoot him dangling in his chute! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Congratulations, you win a free ticket to the war crimes tribunal in the Hague. If the pilot is so shaken up after your attack, he must have bailed from an aircraft in distress. (The aircraft does not have to be hit: it can be in distress or emergency because of other reasons too, such as engine malfuction, or pilot's loss of spatial orientation etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, I think the "in distress" refers to the pilot, not the airplane (i.e. the plane doesn't have to be in distress for the clause to be in effect). Isn't this type of confusion called a dangling modifier? Me fail english? thats un-possible.

unreasonable
08-06-2008, 10:17 PM
I suppose it is possible that "the pilot of an aircraft in distress" means "the distressed pilot of an aircraft" as in "the upset pilot of an aircraft" although this is very poor use of english - maybe it sounds right in german or french - but if you substitute "pilot" with another word it sounds silly:

"the engine of an aircraft in distress"
"the tail of an aircraft in distress"
"a passenger of an aircraft in distress"

It seems to me that in so far as it applies to the crew of an aircraft "in distress" here has the meaning that it would have in the sense of a shipwreck - ie a ship in distress, a crew in distress ie shipwrecked or about to be, rather than meaning "feeling upset". In which case a crewman who out of fear jumps from a perfectly good aircraft is no more "in distress" than a sailor who jumps overboard from HMS Hood because he does not like the look of the Bismark.

You might also bear in mind the following notes from a commentary article on the ICRC'c website:

5) [(5) p.494] ' Article 39 -- Aircraft occupants ' "1. The occupants of aircraft in distress shall never be attacked when they are obviously ' hors de combat ', whether or not they have abandoned the aircraft in distress. An aircraft is not considered to be in distress solely on account of the fact that its means of combat are out of commission. (my comment: clearly here the "in distress" in the last clause refers to the aircraft, making my interpretation of the first clause more plausible)

(13) [(13) p.495] Rules Concerning the Control of Wireless Telegraphy in Time of War and Air Rules of Aerial Warfare, proposed by a commission of jurists which met in The Hague on 11 December 1922 (see M. Deltenre, op. cit., pp. 818-849). These rules were never formally adopted, but their significance as a reflection of ' opinio juris ' is recognized to some extent. Art. 20 provides: "In the event of an aircraft being disabled, the persons trying to escape by means of parachutes must not be attacked during their descent". However, an airman who parachutes from the aircraft to save his life is not considered to have surrendered at discretion (see 1 ' Law Reports, ' "The Dreierwald Case", pp. 85-86, and infra, note 36); (my comment - here the relevant clause is whether the aircraft is disabled, not the pilot, and if the aircraft was not disabled no protection would apply).

I have to disagree that disorientation of a pilot qualifies as putting the aircraft into a state of distress or rendering him "hors de combat" for the purposes of the Geneva conventions (as opposed to justifying the initiation of safety measures in a civil aircraft in normal flying). Apart from anything else, an attacker has no way of knowing that this state of affairs is in force and it is anyway likely to be temporary unlike a wound, surrender or shipwreck.

There is one possible argument ruling out my suggested course of action that does not rely on the thesis that "in distress" applies to the pilot: since no-one has come up with it I suppose I had better make it myself: namely that an aircraft becomes distressed or disabled by virtue of the pilot bailing out. Personally I think this is pretty weak: it seems clear to me that the intent of the rules is to apply to crew who bail as a consequence of their aircraft becoming disabled.

If I am still hauled up before the court my last line of defence would be that I thought he was a spy.

WTE_Galway
08-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Not wanting to get into ethical issues really but from a purely gaming point of view, shooting parachutes when they are over home territory probably serves some purpose in DGEN particularly if the pilot turned out to be a named ace. Depends how the generator functions.

That said, I personally never bothered.

On a different topic, I do not see flaps as being a particularly effective way of increasing your climb.

jolly_magpie
08-06-2008, 11:43 PM
I remember reading about a Mossie pilot who was patrolling over the ocean, looking for FW-200s that were harassing convoys. He caught up to one after a lengthy chase and let him have it. After a few seconds of firing a hatch on the top popped open and a crewman bailed out...right into the stream of bullets. The Mossie driver said this was his one chance to catch the Condor, he felt bad but did not release the firing button. He died about 30 seconds before his crewmates.

Another time a BF-110 night fighter pilot opened fire from dead six on a Brit bomber, the rear gunner immediately turned his turret and bailed out...right into the 110's propellers. The 110 pilot barely got back to base with one prop out of balance, threatening to tear the machine apart.

War is heck.

rnzoli
08-07-2008, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
I have to disagree that disorientation of a pilot qualifies as putting the aircraft into a state of distress or rendering him "hors de combat" for the purposes of the Geneva conventions (as opposed to justifying the initiation of safety measures in a civil aircraft in normal flying). Apart from anything else, an attacker has no way of knowing that this state of affairs is in force and it is anyway likely to be temporary unlike a wound, surrender or shipwreck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Here is where you are wrong. Bailing is an indication that his aircraft is in some kind of distress, making it necessary to take the risk of bailing, and ensure that the aircraft (the "weapon") is going to be destroyed for good.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
namely that an aircraft becomes distressed or disabled by virtue of the pilot bailing out. Personally I think this is pretty weak: it seems clear to me that the intent of the rules is to apply to crew who bail as a consequence of their aircraft becoming disabled. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you are right, the bailing is the consequence of the incapability of the aircraft to continue the fight. However, bailing pilot/crew is a universal sign of surrender, and if you continue firing at them intentionally, you are firing at people surrendering. (Even over hostile territories.)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If I am still hauled up before the court my last line of defence would be that I thought he was a spy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A very good, practical approach. It would work, but you have to remember one important condition. If you say this while being on the winner's side, you'll walk free. If you say this on the defeated side, you will be sentenced anyway. The point I am making: if you want to be pragmatic, the most practical approach is NOT to shoot at pilot/crew bailing, because you never know what may happen in the rest of your life, and under what circumstances should judgment call on you at a later stage.

rnzoli
08-07-2008, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
shooting parachutes when they are over home territory probably serves some purpose in DGEN particularly if the pilot turned out to be a named ace. Depends how the generator functions.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Most online wars also take into account pilot losses, but it's remarkably few people who risk their reputation doing this.

Sometimes in QMB, I personally shoot up parachuters as aiming test, because the immersion level is so little, it's a game, pause, exit, refly etc. But I never ever do this online, especially with other humans present, not even against AI, simply because the immersion level is much higher. Go figure.

unreasonable
08-07-2008, 05:08 AM
rnzoli - sorry I cannot do the neat quotes thingy - what button do you press to do that? Anyway my comments are obviously addressed to your post.

"Bailing is an indication that his aircraft is in some kind of distress" : well it may be, other things being equal, but it is neither necessary nor sufficient. Surely you can accept that there are circumstances in which a pilot might bail even if his aircraft was not in distress (Rudolf Hess?)

Previous posters have just given examples of occasions in which crew were clearly just trying to an escape from an attack, not from an aircraft in distress. In addition, in my original example, I specified that you attack and miss, so that the most reasonable interpretation of the pilots' actions is flight. So in this case the bailing is not the consequence of the aircraft being in distress, in fact exactly the reverse, the aircraft only comes into distress because the pilot has abandoned it.

Also the test for what qualifies as in distress is quite tight - it must be the equivalent of a ship becoming wrecked - for instance inability to continue to fire weapons is explicitly stated to be insufficient for an aircraft to be in distress.


"However, bailing pilot/crew is a universal sign of surrender" - this is not quite right as you will see if you read the ICRC's commentaries on the geneva conventions. What is true is that crew bailing over hostile territory must be given a chance to surrender once they land. If they fail to take it by, for instance, hiding in the woods and guiding a rescue helicopter to their location, they can be treated as enemy combatants. Nowdays crew bailing even over their own territory are protected (provided their aircraft was in distress), but during WW2 there was no internationally agreed formal treaty that stated this and interpretations varied. The sign for surrender in air warfare is to waggle the wings and open the cockpit if possible.

"The point I am making: if you want to be pragmatic, the most practical approach is NOT to shoot at pilot/crew bailing, because you never know what may happen in the rest of your life, and under what circumstances should judgment call on you at a later stage."

Yes I completely agree with you. However, I was not being practical, I was making a pedantic joke, and if you really want to justify your other assertions about where I am "wrong" you would be better off quoting the relevant articles or commentary from the ICRC.

M2morris
08-07-2008, 06:58 AM
Good story, an entertaining read for sure. Thats what I like to see in the forum, stuff like that.

But hey man, that dude was trying to send you to your maker. And besides, moments before he bailed you were raking his plane with bullets and ripping the hell out of it knowing dam well you were probly killing him in his pilots seat anyway. So what the heck; if he gets it when he jumps out, thats his tuff luck.
If he parachutes to the ground and lives he might come back in a new plane and not be so merciful on you. I say: Smoke the bassturd on site.
If he is decending by parachute;
If the commander says don't shoot guys in parachutes than don't do it. But If the CO gives the go ahead; sorry buddy. It sucks to be the other pilot.
YOU become the old veteran telling war stories to your grandkids. HE pushes up daisies. (simulated of course)

rnzoli
08-07-2008, 02:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
if you really want to justify your other assertions about where I am "wrong" you would be better off quoting the relevant articles or commentary from the ICRC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem is not the text, but rather the application of the text we both know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Source: International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents

Rules concerning the Control of Wireless Telegraphy in Time of War and Air Warfare. Drafted by a Commission of Jurists at the Hague, December 1922 - February 1923. (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/275?OpenDocument)

PART II

RULES OF AIR WARFARE

CHAPTER IV.- HOSTILITIES

Art. 20. In the event of an aircraft being disabled, the persons trying to escape by means of parachutes must not be attacked during their descent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The pivotal question is the basis of your judgment, i.e., how conservatively or agressively judge the situation that you described:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by unreasonable:
you attack an enemy aircraft and miss, but the pilot is so shaken up that he bails anyway, you would be perfectly entitled to shoot him dangling in his chute! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although in my view, the decision to shoot/not shoot will depend largely on emotional status, let's "pause" the situation when you have the pilot on his chute in your crosshairs, but you didn't pull the trigger yet. The situation is frozen now and you have got sufficient time to read through all documents you want. What will be the most common question: why did he bail, really. To answer this question well, you should evaluate a couple of things
- combat pilots are all taught and trained on how to handle emergency situations, there are highly publicises cases of people nurturing their badly shot up aircraft back to base, or landing them in the field, even when bailing would have been a safer option for the pilot (but would result in the certain destruction of the aircraft)
- bailing is a risk itself, hitting the vertical stab, or parachute not opening
- combat pilots typically don't get shaken up so easily
- just because you didn't see visible hits, you may have actually hit
- or maybe the aircraft is in the state of emergency acquired prior to your engagement (e.g., someone else shot it up before you, or experiences a spontanous loss of some controls - how can you wiggle then? - or engine power)
- the enemyr pilot may be wounded or sick (hypoxia, spatial disorientation, inability to control the aircraft)

So in brief, it's the enemy pilots judgement against yours. He is sitting in his airplane, you're not. He knows when all measures to bring his aircraft back to base came to an end. If he bails, you have a very good, perfectly sufficient reason to believe, his aircraft was in state of distress before bailing out.

Now, there are exemptions of course, the most typical ones when bailing is part of someone's mission, e.g., paratroopers, or spies. There may even be some special recce missions, where there is not enough fuel/landing gear to land normally, so the pilot must bail with the films form the camera. But these are rather the exceptions that the typical scenarios, so in order to believe any of this, you have to posess some other intel or evidence (e.g., unmarked plane), it's not sufficient to make it up.

Where does all this lead to? It leads to the moment when we release the "pause" button and you need to decide in the fraction of a second, whether to pull the trigger or not.

If you let him live, you exercised a cautious judgement, and assumend that the pilot had a valid reason to bail, even though the exact detail is not known to you, because you are not sitting in the cockpit with him.

If you kill him, you exercised a rather agressive judgement, and if you fail to prove your case, that the bailing was part of the pilot's intended mission, you committed a breach of the convention, i.e., a (small) war crime. Maybe you will feel a bit sad, and exercise a bit more cautious judgement next time, and practically nothing happens.

If you kill him, and as a commander, also order your squadron/wing pilots to kill parachuters unless they paint "I'm in distress!" on the side of their enemy aircraft, you committed a grave breach of the convention, and your goverment should see to it that such practices are stopped. Since such grave breaches cannot go unnoticed, it will surface sooner or later,e.g., from survivor stories, eyewitnesses. On the losing side, you will have a big trial and a heavy sentence, years in prison. On the winning side, you might not receive medals or promotions as you expect, people will call you "Mr. Geneva Expert" behind you back, you will be discharged early and you might have troubles getting jobs in civilian life, because of roumors about your dealings and unnecessary victims while in combat.


In short, it's insufficient to read the text and find excuses why certain paragraphs don't apply. If you do so, you are grossly failing to understand the spirit of these humanitarian laws:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols are international treaties that contain the most important rules <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">limiting the barbarity of war.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With your finger on the trigger, and the pilot hanging in your crosshair, you make a decision not only about his life, but about your own barbarity too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Friendly_flyer
08-07-2008, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the story, Jamesblonde!

Unfortunately, the first time I managed to shoot down an aircraft in HL, I accidentally hit the bailing pilot. I felt like **** afterwards.

ElAurens
08-07-2008, 05:05 PM
It a pixel pilot.

In a video game.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

unreasonable
08-07-2008, 08:45 PM
"If you kill him, you exercised a rather agressive judgement, and if you fail to prove your case, that the bailing was part of the pilot's intended mission, you committed a breach of the convention, i.e., a (small) war crime." err, no.

Actually the prosecution would had to prove either that I knowingly shot down crew from an aeroplane in distress or that a reasonable person should have known that the aircraft was in distress, I do not have to prove anything, and certainly not that bailing was part of his intended mission.

But this is by the way. Your moralistic pronouncements do not address my original contention, that given the way the current rules are written, shooting bailed aircrew could still sometimes be legal, irrespective of whether such action is desirable, morally or tactically. Now I could be wrong about this specific point, and if someone points out the clause that demonstrates this I will happily acknowledge this.

Since you have resorted to ad hominem arguments about my alleged lack of understanding of the humanitarian purpose of the laws of war, an issue which I have never addressed, further discussion is clearly pointless, but if you still have to have the last word, go ahead.

I will say no more on this topic, I have prisoners to torture.

M2morris
08-08-2008, 07:07 AM
If your enemy bails you can always scare the simulated crap out of him like I do here in a P38.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjrUEtvJsgs



Or, if your not careful your enemy pilot may reach the ground safely and hide in the woods all night, steal a truck the next morning, make it to an airfield, swipe a fighter and who knows what might happen then.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMgAQsiAyg8

rnzoli
08-08-2008, 12:07 PM
No Quarter and No Quarter II are quite funny videos, I have seen them a while ago. I think the link to No Quarter II should be here too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVBqyKtDY0Y&feature=related http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

copet
08-08-2008, 12:24 PM
Sorta a bit off topic, but does it mattter in terms of points or any game mechanic whether you hit REFLY once you eject or if you hit it once your parachute lands?

rnzoli
08-09-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't think so, online the important thing may be to let your aircraft get down and crash (so that IL-2 chat will write up the name of your attacker and the server controller can credit the kill to him).

NAFP_supah
08-09-2008, 12:02 PM
After having been shoulder shot, had my kills stolen, team killed by collision and had my entire flight fly during CAVU conditions straight into a giant mountain side for no reason what so ever by AI any one of the little forks I can kill and get away with is another one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rjel
08-09-2008, 12:14 PM
I really haven't a single reservation about gunning a computer generated pilot. This sim has never been that realistic to me that I've ever forgotten that it's just a game. In real life or online I imagine I'd feel somewhat differently.

Sirrith
08-09-2008, 02:11 PM
funny, in fps games i dont care about shooting someone whether online or off, but in this game i do...