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View Full Version : Germans won Battle of Britain ... 60 years after it was over



maxim26
05-08-2004, 03:49 PM
I just realised the fact thet after 2002 BMW - german compony, which supplied engines for BF109 during WWII, aquired the rights for Rolls-Royce trade mark - the company, which supplied engines for Spitfires. The rights for Bently trade mark and all manufacturing facilities were aquaired by Volkswagen - the compony which was started by Hitler's idea of "peoples car".

maxim26
05-08-2004, 03:49 PM
I just realised the fact thet after 2002 BMW - german compony, which supplied engines for BF109 during WWII, aquired the rights for Rolls-Royce trade mark - the company, which supplied engines for Spitfires. The rights for Bently trade mark and all manufacturing facilities were aquaired by Volkswagen - the compony which was started by Hitler's idea of "peoples car".

Capt.LoneRanger
05-08-2004, 03:55 PM
LO - yes, and they'd give it away!

Rolls Royce is deep in red numbers, even after the modernisation from BMW.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

p1ngu666
05-08-2004, 03:57 PM
rolls-royce aircraft engines is a different company http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
and it was damiler benz/mercades (same thing?) in the 109. dunno if bmw made parts tho

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<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

BS87
05-08-2004, 04:11 PM
Also, clearly Ford won the war, even today because they produce the mustang!

maxim26
05-08-2004, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
rolls-royce aircraft engines is a different company http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
and it was damiler benz/mercades (same thing?) in the 109. dunno if bmw made parts tho

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was one company, wich produced a/c engines and automobiles, just different divisions. Actually the rights on trademark for the automobiles were bought from a/c engine division.

About BMW supplying engines for Bf109 i was mistaken. They supplied engines for FW190.

Chuck_Older
05-08-2004, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:
rolls-royce aircraft engines is a different company http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
[QUOTE]

p1ngu is right on the money. RR aircraft is it's own entity, the rights for that have not been sold.


Maxim-

I hadn't known until this very minute that the entire impetus of WWII for the Germans was to get the rights to a British company's name. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
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Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

maxim26
05-08-2004, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I hadn't known until this very minute that the entire impetus of WWII for the Germans was to get the rights to a British company's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to point out the irony of hystory with the title, thet's it.

Chuck_Older
05-08-2004, 05:43 PM
Having a bad day, Max? That's called a "joke". Note the winkey smiley face http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

DONB3397
05-08-2004, 06:20 PM
BMW shares are sold on the U.S., British, German, French, Swedish, Japanese and Hong Kong stock exchanges among others. Ownership in global enterprises is determined by who has the ability to buy shares, not by nationality.

Even if it wanted, no government can "nationalize" assets held in another country (although they can limit the ability to sell or transfer those assets).

BMW is no longer purely a German company, any more than Coke is purely American. It's the nature of finance, distributed manufacturing and marketing. Welcome to the 21st Century.

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A being breathing thoughtful breath,/A Traveller between life and death." -- Wordsworth

[This message was edited by DONB3397 on Sun May 09 2004 at 07:18 AM.]

Boandlgramer
05-08-2004, 10:19 PM
Lada lost the War http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Boandlgramer
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The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Somebody asked me, what i liked most, my chromium-plated Colt or my Helmet with the 4 Stars. I said : you damn Bastard, none of them, the most important thing in my life is my pink underwear.....a well know WW2 General http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
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heywooood
05-08-2004, 10:31 PM
In the program I was watching a few weeks ago about this - it was a sensitive subject in the UK.. not many people there were happy about it.

The overall settling of the Empire and all that... I know I was saddened? slightly by the news and I'm not British.

Current marketplace and diversification of corporate ownerships aside...its disappointing somehow.

Magister__Ludi
05-08-2004, 11:15 PM
It was a reciprocal move. At the same time (about year 2000) former BMW Rolls Royce GmbH jet engine plant from Germany was finally bought by Rolls Royce. Now it is called something like Rolls-Royce Deutschland. It manufactures engines for Airbus.

What's even more funny is that after 50 years former ww2 German corporations that were forbidden to continue their aviation business after the war are giving now Boeing a run for their money with Airbus. To those that do not know EADS, the consortium that sells Airbus was built around MBB company, which brought together Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Junkers and others.

plumps_
05-08-2004, 11:22 PM
Many German companies have been taken over by British companies. Remember Mannesmann (now Vodafone)? A car component factory in the neighboring town is now called Mayflower Corporation instead of Roth Technik GmbH. That's just the way it goes nowadays.

What baffles me is that many British still seem to think in categories of warfare 59 years after Hitler's death. The reason probably is that they won the war, so war isn't such a bad thing to them. Or is it just the British sense of humour?

-----------------------------------
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[This message was edited by plumps_ on Sat May 08 2004 at 10:30 PM.]

Boandlgramer
05-08-2004, 11:32 PM
Plumps,
Erfolg produziert auch Neider .
Gerade aus den ehemaligen Siegerstaaten war das nicht selten schwer zu akzeptieren. Ja , obwohl schon fast 60 Jahre vergangen. Aber nu gehts ja "wiederbergabmitderwirtschaft".

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Somebody asked me, what i liked most, my chromium-plated Colt or my Helmet with the 4 Stars. I said : you damn Bastard, none of them, the most important thing in my life is my pink underwear.....a well know WW2 General http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
******************************

jenikovtaw
05-09-2004, 12:13 AM
I think british delusion of greatness is what pretty much proved to be the bane after WW2. The country was, well, devastated. The delusions of empirical proportions still existed (as they do now), and frankly, I can't say that british automobile industry was ever great. Yes, rover, MG, all those little cars, but they faded when competition from Japan came in the 80's. Look at europe now, how many MGs and Rovers do you see? Not many.

In conclusion: German discipline payed off after the war.

Also, look at russia, wheres russia now? They "won" the war. Look at Japan, who got nuked, and look at what cars are driven all over the world, thats right Japanese.

http://www.theartofwarfare.net/ftp/graphics/sigs/EXT-jenikovtaw.jpg

Hawg-dawg
05-09-2004, 01:00 AM
Ford has own Jag for years and BMW has owned Roover for some time as well.............

AKA Bad-MF(Mongral Fighter).... Member... Kelly Johnsons SKUNK WORKS
Sucka Free since 1969..... Fatboys Forever

NorrisMcWhirter
05-09-2004, 02:44 AM
Hi,

The British will always rag the Germans about the war(s) - I doubt that fact will subside for many years to come and there is no real malice in it, or at least there isn't for the people that I know. Of course, the British are not the only ones to do this, something highlighted by the Italian PM's comments not so long ago. One of the mainstays of the British is taking the michael both out of theirselves, and foreigners - as I'm sure it is for most other countries.

As to German ownership/partnerships of/with UK companies, I don't believe that most of the British have any real problem with this but they will probably deliver the odd jibe on the subject; the two shouldn't be mistaken. Besides, as someone as already pointed out, foreign ownership is more prevalent these days (e.g. DaimlerChrysler, swedish company ABB owning US companies, UK banks owning US banks, US companies (Ford) owning UK companies (Land Rover, Jaguar)...the list goes on).

Whether this constitutes a 'victory' over Britain is another matter - Britain was crippled rebuilding elements of Europe after the war and has never really recovered from that. So, maybe the pouring of German cash into Britain, these days, should actually be seen in these terms or, at least, as a symbol of a more co-operative (read: less war) European Union.

Cheers,
Norris

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JG52Uther
05-09-2004, 03:41 AM
This is a tpic that could potentially get very ugly, very fast,so maybe this forum is not the best place to bring it up guys.

BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jenikovtaw:
I think british delusion of greatness is what pretty much proved to be the bane after WW2. The country was, well, devastated. The delusions of empirical proportions still existed (as they do now), and frankly, I can't say that british automobile industry was ever great. Yes, rover, MG, all those little cars, but they faded when competition from Japan came in the 80's. Look at europe now, how many MGs and Rovers do you see? Not many.
In conclusion: German discipline payed off after the war.

Also, look at russia, wheres russia now? They "won" the war. Look at Japan, who got nuked, and look at what cars are driven all over the world, thats right Japanese.

http://www.theartofwarfare.net/ftp/graphics/sigs/EXT-jenikovtaw.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yawn. There's a lot of nonsense here.
Britain is the world's fourth largest economy after the USA, Japan, and Germany (China is coming up fast on the rails but that's another subject). Not bad for a small island off of Europe with a much smaller population than the others. In fact- one might say- fantastically good all things considered. The position of the first three is roughly what you might expect given the size of these developed economies but Britain's appearance seems anomalous. How can Britain be right up there if it has no manufacturing base? Because a) the previous sentence is incorrect and b) Britain is a major 'service' economy ie it provides knowledge- based and high- tech services to customers worldwide.

Economic success is not measured by how many cars a nation produces. Working on a car production line is not the most demanding of occupations- anyone can do it, it is essentially labouring. However, designing cars is more difficult. Most international car design bureaus have offices in Britain. Do you see the difference?

Re 'delusions of greatness' :
Let's leave moot the question as to whether the possession of an empire defines a country as 'great'- I don't think it does (Soviet Union?), there are other measures one might employ.
After the war Britain still had many colonies for which it had to provide security and administration. This was a great hindrance to economic recovery which Germany did not share, having failed to secure an empire for itself during the war. Futhermore, Germany had no war debt- it had used slave labourers from France, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia et al to produce much of its war material (it paid no wages) and it had stolen raw materials from occupied countries to keep the effort going. It never paid for these (millions of tons of iron ore for example). So after the war, having been bombed to pieces, it had no debt. Nothing. Zilch.
No reparations were demanded by the victorious Allies because they did not want to repeat the perceived errors of the Versaille Treaty after WW1. Instead, Germany received $2 billion dollars of Marshall aid for re-building.
Britain on the other hand, paid for its war effort. All of its raw materials were paid for (or bought on credit); everything imported from the USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa etc- costed to the last penny. After the war, these bills came home to roost and by 1947 the country was in danger of being bankrupted (it also received Marshall Aid but this had to be used for re-building not to offset against debt).
Ironically, countries which had been occupied by the Germans early on, like France and the Netherlands, did not emerge with crippling war debts. Fighting a long war and actually paying for the privilege was something only Britain did. It took 20 years for most of the debt to be cleared and that was why there was not the money to invest in fripperies like car production facilities. Even now part of the British National Debt relates to lend- lease contracts agreed with the USA in WW2. That is how large the debts were- 60 years on Britain is still paying them.
Soviet Russia was a command economy- you worked because you were told to and you met quotas. In return, the state gave you bread and an allowance. All assets were state owned so there was no debt at the end of the war- only consumption figures and austerity.
The USA, of course, was never bombed.
For your information you will not find anyone in modern Britain crying into their beer over the 'loss' of the empire. Frankly, empire's are only beneficial if they can be exploited- the rise in the activity of nationalist movements in the colonies after the war and the impossibility of Britain maintaining a huge army to police them meant that it was inevitable that they would be granted independence. But so what? Sure, Britain pays for their goods now, but it also makes huge savings from not having to police an empire. Individual states have to police themselves now and attend to their own security.

Re German 'discipline'.
What you refer to as 'discipline' is regarded in Britain as an alarming tendency by that generation of Germans to play "follow the leader"- without thinking for themselves. It was quite natural that having lost their Fuhrer they should respond to the nearest thing to him after the war- corporate leadership. "You want another 50 cars per month, Mein Manager? Jawohl! (click of the heels). OK, I'm joking, but there is an essential truth here. Germans naturally fell into a spirit of 'national re-building', buoyed by American dollars. Britons were broke (in the 1950s) and suddenly realised that the war victory had not led to a promised land of good times for all (because of debt levels). Public anger was expressed through union movements which damaged British industry well into the 1970s. Meanwhile German industry sailed serenely on, unable to believe its own recovery (and good fortune).
Of course, things are different now, Britain is once again a very wealthy country (the highest economic growth rate of any in Europe) and the German economy is now stagnating, in large part because of the absorption of East Germany.
There is a poetic irony to this in that Germany is now disadvantaged by the underdeveloped part of itself- that it lost due to the war it started. A legacy of its previous misdeeds come home to roost. It will take at least a generation to properly incorporate the East and Germany is now paying the reconstruction bills it did not have to pay in the 1950s. Pity the current generation of Germans. Meanwhile, the British economy sails serenely on...
Germany faces some severe challenges in future, still having a large manufacturing base. In order to compete with China and low- wage eastern european countries it will have no option but to relocate many manufacturing facilities to other countries and to lay off thousands of German workers. In other words, to do what Britain did in the nineteen seventies and eighties, and become much more 'service' based.

And finally, what are relations like between Britain and Germany now? Very cordial, I'm glad to say. German goods are widely admired in Britain and German celebrities are very popular in the UK (the Schumachers, Becker, Graf, Langer, Schiffer, Brandauer, Klum, Harry S Morgan). In fact, relations have never been as good- which is why threads like this serve no purpose other than to rake up the ashes of old disagreements. Is the original poster's other name fulanito chile?

Antony_B
05-09-2004, 06:20 AM
Yes don't let this topic get ugly. My perspective (as a proud Englishman): Yes it's a shame so many British companies were bought out, but I have the greatest admiration for Germans, German design and engineering and I love German cars - BMW, Mercedes, and especially Porsche. Not that I've got one, I drive a humble Proton http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magister__Ludi:
It was a reciprocal move. At the same time (about year 2000) former BMW Rolls Royce GmbH jet engine plant from Germany was finally bought by Rolls Royce. Now it is called something like Rolls-Royce Deutschland. It manufactures engines for Airbus.

What's even more funny is that after 50 years former ww2 German corporations that were forbidden to continue their aviation business after the war are giving now Boeing a run for their money with Airbus. To those that do not know EADS, the consortium that sells Airbus was built around MBB company, which brought together Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Junkers and others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And so now Airbus Industries is German, is it Magister? (LOFL)
The truth is more complex. Rolls Royce set up the joint venture with BMW in 1990 to make small/ medium size turbofans for civil airliners. It was commercially expedient for Rolls to share development costs and good for BMW as a means of getting back into gas turbines (after 60 years on the outside). But the technology and design (of the BR series of engines which they produce) belong to Rolls Royce. Eventually Rolls bought out the German side of the operation to make the former joint venture a wholly owned subsidiary of Rolls Royce. So now Rolls Royce (aero) owns plants in Germany. (What? Britain buying up Germany's industrial manufacturing base? Yes, it happens). These engines (up to 30,000lbs thrust) are only fitted to smaller Airbus models. The big Rolls Royce turbofans (110,000lbs thrust) intended for the larger Airbuses- like the Trent- are still manufactured entirely in Britain.
In fact, the wings of every Airbus are made in Britain (ie by the heirs of DeHavilland, Avro, Hawker, Handley Page etc)- so who is giving who a run for their money?

At one point in the 1990s British Aerospace (now BAE Systems) was going to merge with Deutsche Aerospace (or DASA) but decided not to. This forced the much smaller DASA to merge with the French Aerospatiale and Spanish CASA group in order to survive. That group is now called EADS. The marketing of Airbus may be based in Germany but the manufacturing most certainly is not- German industry no longer has the knowledge to produce many aircraft systems. Look at the recent debacle over the Eurofighter Typhoon. The German government lobbied hard for the contract to produce the flight control system. After 6 months and no progress they brought in BAE Systems to help them sort out the mess they'd gotten into. A British executive was quoted as saying "the Germans haven't built a military flight control system of any kind for 60 years- so they found it very difficult."

Rolls Royce/Bentley cars was always a small operation (tiny) by the very nature of the product. Cars for the super rich. It was owned by the engineering group Vickers which finally decided to get out of car production (as it was not its core business) and despite misgivings in Britain this was a good thing. Underinvestment in the plant had reduced the quality of Rolls Royce cars to a shadow of its pre- war self. As we know, a bidding war ensued between BMW and Volkswagen for Rolls Royce Cars, but one has to ask why? Both German companies saw it as a shortcut to 'class' credibility; high- end market presence to compete with Mercedes. The mystique of a name still counts for a lot.

Extreme_One
05-09-2004, 06:28 AM
Bloody good post BerkshireHunt

S! Simon
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Pimpo
05-09-2004, 06:57 AM
"The German government lobbied hard for the contract to produce the flight control system."

BerkshireHunt do you know which goverment or when did that happened? if so, it wasnt really smart http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

überzeugte luftwaffle

Kurfurst__
05-09-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
Yawn. There's a lot of nonsense here.
Britain is the world's fourth largest economy after the USA, Japan, and Germany (China is coming up fast on the rails but that's another subject). Not bad for a small island off of Europe with a much smaller population than the others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it`s the 6th biggest, the order being (EU if it would really be united), USA, Japan, Germany, France, Italy(!!) and then comes the UK. Admittedly there`s no big difference between the latter three, in GDP or population, though France is standing out in it`s economical power.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Economic success is not measured by how many cars a nation produces. Working on a car production line is not the most demanding of occupations- anyone can do it, it is essentially labouring. However, designing cars is more difficult. Most international car design bureaus have offices in Britain. Do you see the difference?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

International car companies have design offices in just about any country, that`s why they called INTERNATIONAL... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So? The UK basically has no car industry anymore that would be owned by domestic capital.
The point is, UK industry base is really in weak in base compared to others, in most areas it`s not competitive with products, or stands out; services alone don`t provide a solid base. Vodafone bougt up Mannesman, great, there was a huge chestpounding about this, but as things look like now, they probably think they shouldn`t have; the e-business, mobile communication, and computer development ballon had blown up a few years ago, it proved to be a hype. Industry, and it`s materialized products are the backbone of any nations wealth on the long term, the service are good for short time investments, and give varying results, great profit at a time, followed by depression. It`s good for extra profit, but w/o a solid industrial base, it`s a castle built on sand, nobody knows when it will crumble, it`s just too exposed to outside business events. Ie. what if outside investor suddenly move out of UK to Eastern Europe? You see the point. It`s not something being built on solid ground, and this also weights a lot in comparing economical strenght, the other countries being far more balanced out in this respect.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

Monty_Thrud
05-09-2004, 08:10 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Excellent post BerkshireHunt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

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BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 08:53 AM
German GDP US$1984 billion for 2003- official OECD total- (not as far ahead as I thought!).

BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
Yawn. There's a lot of nonsense here.
Britain is the world's fourth largest economy after the USA, Japan, and Germany (China is coming up fast on the rails but that's another subject). Not bad for a small island off of Europe with a much smaller population than the others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it`s the 6th biggest, the order being (EU if it would really be united), USA, Japan, Germany, France, Italy(!!) and then comes the UK. Admittedly there`s no big difference between the latter three, in GDP or population, though France is standing out in it`s economical power.

[QUOTE]

No, Isegrim, Britain is the world's fourth largest economy according to the latest figures issued by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD):

Gross Domestic product 2002:
UK USD 1563 billion
France USD 1431 billion
Italy USD 1184 billion

You can check on their site if you doubt my word:
http://www.oecd.org/document/62/0,2340,en_2649_34489_2345918_1_1_1_1,00.html

Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:14 AM
Berkinshirehunt, you really know your stuff, but I think you need to update a little on certain subjects. You are talking in my industry now. Sorry, I can say no more except that I really enjoy your posts.

What I've noticed about reading threads here is that the world is bigger than some realize. Don't get me wrong, no insult intended and no blame placed. Most opinions here are really interesting. Thx all.

Fritz Franzen

p1ngu666
05-09-2004, 09:34 AM
wonder what happens when the service industries goto india :\
like they doing :\
also cant have growth constantly, finate resources, its like the BS that gov says it will make X service more effecient, its just not gonna happen :\
only lib dems in this country will say this

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Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:40 AM
The rich will get richer, and the poor will become poorer, at least for a time. Read history,......if you don't mind repeats. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Kurfurst__
05-09-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
No, Isegrim, Britain is the world's fourth largest economy according to the latest figures issued by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD):

Gross Domestic product 2002:
UK USD 1563 billion
France USD 1431 billion
Italy USD 1184 billion

You can check on their site if you doubt my word:
http://www.oecd.org/document/62/0,2340,en_2649_34489_2345918_1_1_1_1,00.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on what you pick for reference , ie. GNP and GDP. GDP would not take into account foreign investments, only the value of product that are produced within the boundaries of the given country. Such comparison would favour the UK, since it has little foreign investments, compared to France and Germany, both of which VERY active in E-Europe, and these investments, the capability to export capital beyond the boundaries are also indicators of their economical strenght, don`t you think, ie. Germany`s DASA, or DaimlerChrysler, the mentioned BMW and VW investments in the UK, and in China etc. Hence I believe GNP is far more critical in judging a nation`s economical strenght, and the last time I looked it up, France and Italy landed up B4 the UK; admittedly this was a while ago, some frequent data for GNP of 2003 would help to clear the issue. But wouldn`t you agree that the strongly assymetric nature of the UK economy IS a risky situtation in the long term?

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

Nexus2005
05-09-2004, 10:26 AM
Got a couple of corrections here:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BMW has owned Roover for some time as well............. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nope, BMW sold MG Rover to a British consortium a couple of years ago. They of course kept the profitable Mini and sold the less profitable Land Rover to Ford.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can't say that british automobile industry was ever great.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gonna have to disagree with this (especially where sports cars are concerned). Personally, I class a car company as British if the cars are designed/built in Britian. So, British car companies include:

Rolls-Royce (just about, partly built in Britian, but it is still British designed).

Bently (Just about, sadly and shockingly some of the bodies for the Continental GT are built in the Skoda factory!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Jaguar (Sort of British still, in my book a great contender to BMW for executive cars, especially with the new XJ)

Aston Martin (Gotta love this one, although it's owned by Ford they are still designed and built by hand in the UK).

MG Rover (Struggling a bit in the small and family car market, the MG TF isnt too shabby though, the only big car company still 100% British)

Lotus (Fantastic little performance cars, the Elise is widely held to be the best handling car on the road).

I may have forgotten one or 2, and there a handful of little companies like Noble and Morgan that build some brilliant little sports cars (the Noble is especially good, extremely fast, especially for the price).

I may be wrong, but I don't think any country has spawned so many great car companies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And let us not forget up until a couple of years ago the fastest road car in existance (and I think it's still the road car to have actually gone 241mph) was the McLaren F1 (powered by BMW). We certainly have some good racing heritage.

This isn't some ultra nationalistic post, I'm just a fan of British cars.

http://www.bobcs.co.uk/sig/Nexussig/sig2.jpg (http://www.bobcs.co.uk)

[This message was edited by Nexus2005 on Sun May 09 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

[This message was edited by Nexus2005 on Sun May 09 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

Aaron_GT
05-09-2004, 10:59 AM
Kurfurst:
Currently most measures recognise the UK as the
4th largest economy, not 6th. Sometimes France
is 4th, and the UK is 5th, and Italy is close,
but at the moment the UK is, by just about
all measures, 4th.

BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Berkinshirehunt, you really know your stuff, but I think you need to update a little on certain subjects. You are talking in my industry now. Sorry, I can say no more except that I really enjoy your posts.

What I've noticed about reading threads here is that the world is bigger than some realize. Don't get me wrong, no insult intended and no blame placed. Most opinions here are really interesting. Thx all.
Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fritz,
I'm sorry you can't say anymore. I don't mind being corrected and I'm always open to new insights. I guess from your previous posts that you work for either BMW or Mercedes in Beijing (on the dealership or manufacturing side, I don't know). I do know that German car companies regard China as a major growth market. You will never sell a million Maybachs to the Chinese- high end products like that will always be made and developed in Germany. But lower end German cars will increasingly be made in eastern Europe, South America and China- with consequences for the German labour market.

Incidentally, the European and American trade missions in Beijing now are very similar to those which existed in China in 1900- just before that Chinese secret society (the Boxers) tried to eject them on the grounds that they were exploiting the Chinese worker. The European powers intervened militarily to quell that 'insurrection'- an early example of European cooperation (with apologies to Chinese readers). That won't happen again (we wouldn't dare for one thing) so it might be as well to- as we say in Britain- keep your hand on your pickelhaube.

Extreme_One
05-09-2004, 11:04 AM
Well I'm British and after days out with wife the kids and I reckon I must be about the 4th poorest person in Europe now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html).

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html). *NEW*

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-spit_sig.jpg

BerkshireHunt
05-09-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Kurfurst:
Currently most measures recognise the UK as the
4th largest economy, not 6th. Sometimes France
is 4th, and the UK is 5th, and Italy is close,
but at the moment the UK is, by just about
all measures, 4th.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not forgetting, of course, that Britain is Europe's number 1 economic 'tourist' (migrant) destination. In fact, many of Isegrim's countrymen will end up working here over the next few years. London has lots of vacancies for young, multi- lingual lawyers, so I'm sure he could be found a well- paid service industry job as well (!)

Aaron_GT
05-09-2004, 11:52 AM
Interestingly, in terms of asylum seekers per
capita of local population central and eastern
Europe have more to contend with than the UK,
according to the OECD at least (the source of
the GDP figures above, so it seems a source that
is trusted in this discussion).

In terms of absolute number of asylum seekers
(as one class of migrant) the UK and Germany
are pretty much tied. Germany has a much larger
proportion of foreign born nationals (9%) than
the UK, though.