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View Full Version : S~! Oleg == Bf 109s, Laggs, La5s and Yak series FM GM ==



HelSqnProtos
06-21-2005, 09:57 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">~Salute~

Firstly Sir, I would like to thank you for your continuing support of the game and the Flight simulation community. Your latest patch has once again raised the bar for ALL other Flight Sims. On behalf of myself and my Pilots at the 13th Hellenic Squadron I thank you.

I am primarily concerned with the ships mentioned in the title as my Squadron and many many others fly in online wars. FM is critical in these contests.As you can guess most of the Pilots in these wars are HIGHLY competitive. Pilots are extremely attuned to their ride because they often have many hundreds of hours in it. That is why 4.01 has been such a shocking blow to the VVS Pilots mostly and to the LW pilots to a much lesser extent.

I have been one of the many complaining about the VVS planes since the new patch. I would like to ammend some of my statements in light of some new FM testing that I have done. Special thanks to CrazyIvan for having the patience to show this Oldtimer that these planes ARE NOT PORKEDs. I learned a great great deal from the several hours of flight testing that we did together.

If you will indulge me for a few more moments I shall list some of my observations in the hopes that they may help others.</span>


<span class="ev_code_PINK">- The absolutely total necessity of a quality twist stick or rudder pedals.

- Rudder trim must actively be monitored during flight for max performance.

- SUSTAINED RUDDER IMPUTS are necessary for max performance manoeuvers.

- X45 rocker rudder just cannot cut it no matter how you play with the profile.

Yaks and Las are not porked they must be flown with far more care than ever. I saw CrazyIvan hold a sustained combat turn at 160 kph at 300m with no combat flaps -- no stall no spin. Obviously the birds can still do what they used to. -- It's just so very difficult without the proper hardware.</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">For the record, CrazyIvan uses a Microsoft Forcefeedback II with an X45 throttle.

In my squadron I have one pilot with a msffb II and another with rudder pedals. The truth is that they are adjusting significantly faster than the rest of us, who primarily own X45.</span>

<span class="ev_code_PINK">Oleg would you come out and say that for best performance that a quality twist stick or pedals are needed. I believe this is the truth and more players need to be aware of this.Personally I will be investing in a set of pedals from Hunters site. I found them there for a great price. I advise anyone who wants to be competitive to do the same. The difference with SUSTAINED rudder imput is amazing</span>


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Oleg Your thoughts on the X45 rudder IN PARTICULAR would also be invaluable as so many competitive players own this stick. Please provide some clarification on this vital area.

CrazyIvan observed that I was not using the full capabilities of each plane -- he said I was afraid of stalling. As you can imagine I was not thrilled to hear this but I have to admit that it is true. I do fear a stall. I feel less confident in my ship than I did pre 3.04. However at least for myself I have found the problem. Your words on this matter will help many others.


With regards to the Shvak: Can we get some clarification? There seems to be less tracer in the load out of some planes, for instance La5,yaks while there seems to be an increase in La7. There has been speculation that there was an ammo belt loadout change. Can you confirm this please?

with regards to Bf109 Fm GM : Firstly I have flown F4 and G2 since the patch and they are beautiful handling planes. However with respect Oleg, I feel that the FM or 4.0 was more accurate for these planes than 4.01. The LW themselves don't seem to like the newest FM. My personal thoughts are that torque and stall behaviour are much gentler in 4.01 than 4.0 imho a reversion to the 4.0 model is indicated in the interests of fairplay. Most especially in online wars. You hardly see anyone flying anything other than a bf nowadays. With regards to the 151/20s, I was a proponent of fixing them and am glad it has happened. However I feel they may be about 15-20% too strong. There doesn't seem to be anything that needs more than a few rounds to down with this bird. A .75 second burst on a transport or bomber is instant death. Again that is just my opinion, but I feel many share it.

By the way what are your thoughts on G2 vs Yak7b for instance??

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope my observations may be of some assistance to others, but the proof is in the testing.


Oleg hopefully you can find a moment for a brief response. </span>

HelSqnProtos
06-21-2005, 09:57 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">~Salute~

Firstly Sir, I would like to thank you for your continuing support of the game and the Flight simulation community. Your latest patch has once again raised the bar for ALL other Flight Sims. On behalf of myself and my Pilots at the 13th Hellenic Squadron I thank you.

I am primarily concerned with the ships mentioned in the title as my Squadron and many many others fly in online wars. FM is critical in these contests.As you can guess most of the Pilots in these wars are HIGHLY competitive. Pilots are extremely attuned to their ride because they often have many hundreds of hours in it. That is why 4.01 has been such a shocking blow to the VVS Pilots mostly and to the LW pilots to a much lesser extent.

I have been one of the many complaining about the VVS planes since the new patch. I would like to ammend some of my statements in light of some new FM testing that I have done. Special thanks to CrazyIvan for having the patience to show this Oldtimer that these planes ARE NOT PORKEDs. I learned a great great deal from the several hours of flight testing that we did together.

If you will indulge me for a few more moments I shall list some of my observations in the hopes that they may help others.</span>


<span class="ev_code_PINK">- The absolutely total necessity of a quality twist stick or rudder pedals.

- Rudder trim must actively be monitored during flight for max performance.

- SUSTAINED RUDDER IMPUTS are necessary for max performance manoeuvers.

- X45 rocker rudder just cannot cut it no matter how you play with the profile.

Yaks and Las are not porked they must be flown with far more care than ever. I saw CrazyIvan hold a sustained combat turn at 160 kph at 300m with no combat flaps -- no stall no spin. Obviously the birds can still do what they used to. -- It's just so very difficult without the proper hardware.</span>

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">For the record, CrazyIvan uses a Microsoft Forcefeedback II with an X45 throttle.

In my squadron I have one pilot with a msffb II and another with rudder pedals. The truth is that they are adjusting significantly faster than the rest of us, who primarily own X45.</span>

<span class="ev_code_PINK">Oleg would you come out and say that for best performance that a quality twist stick or pedals are needed. I believe this is the truth and more players need to be aware of this.Personally I will be investing in a set of pedals from Hunters site. I found them there for a great price. I advise anyone who wants to be competitive to do the same. The difference with SUSTAINED rudder imput is amazing</span>


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Oleg Your thoughts on the X45 rudder IN PARTICULAR would also be invaluable as so many competitive players own this stick. Please provide some clarification on this vital area.

CrazyIvan observed that I was not using the full capabilities of each plane -- he said I was afraid of stalling. As you can imagine I was not thrilled to hear this but I have to admit that it is true. I do fear a stall. I feel less confident in my ship than I did pre 3.04. However at least for myself I have found the problem. Your words on this matter will help many others.


With regards to the Shvak: Can we get some clarification? There seems to be less tracer in the load out of some planes, for instance La5,yaks while there seems to be an increase in La7. There has been speculation that there was an ammo belt loadout change. Can you confirm this please?

with regards to Bf109 Fm GM : Firstly I have flown F4 and G2 since the patch and they are beautiful handling planes. However with respect Oleg, I feel that the FM or 4.0 was more accurate for these planes than 4.01. The LW themselves don't seem to like the newest FM. My personal thoughts are that torque and stall behaviour are much gentler in 4.01 than 4.0 imho a reversion to the 4.0 model is indicated in the interests of fairplay. Most especially in online wars. You hardly see anyone flying anything other than a bf nowadays. With regards to the 151/20s, I was a proponent of fixing them and am glad it has happened. However I feel they may be about 15-20% too strong. There doesn't seem to be anything that needs more than a few rounds to down with this bird. A .75 second burst on a transport or bomber is instant death. Again that is just my opinion, but I feel many share it.

By the way what are your thoughts on G2 vs Yak7b for instance??

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope my observations may be of some assistance to others, but the proof is in the testing.


Oleg hopefully you can find a moment for a brief response. </span>

A.K.Davis
06-21-2005, 10:25 PM
oooooh...pretty colors...*snap*

Oh, uh, FM 4.0 --&gt; FM 4.01 change: only in your head.

Jetbuff
06-21-2005, 10:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Oh, uh, FM 4.0 --&gt; FM 4.01 change: only in your head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Precisely. Ask CrazyIvan how to test FM chagnes (or lack thereof) via track files.

HelSqnProtos
06-21-2005, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
oooooh...pretty colors...*snap* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW"> You got that snap down pretty good. lots of practise hmm???</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Lixma
06-21-2005, 11:00 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Lixma/placebo.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
06-21-2005, 11:25 PM
Nice job Protos. And, thanks crazyivan for showing how to be Young again.

So many Old Timer FB/PF Aces have become Newbie pilots again. Its a shame they don't enjoy the once-in-a-lifetime feeling of being Young again, starting out all over, so worried about keeping the old internet Brownie Points. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Entire encrusted Squads of bitter!!!!


I have...

(1) 20$ Saitek Cyborg Graphite from (ugh) WalMarts...its the Real WW2 control column, with absolute minimum of buttons, the most massive Base made, the largest smoothest Throttle made, and a whopping 6 inch stick~top throw distance left-right and forward-back...measure your throw distance. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(2) 40$ working class Racing Pedals.

(3) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif And...Mouse View with elevator trim mapped to mouse wheel, although my Mouse input sensitivity is set high in the Input menu Works like a charm for looking around the sky with minimum wrist movement, with finger on the elevator trim wheel AND throttle (throttle is mapped to mouse buttons). Its a ~sweet~ setup, and very primitive, or "minimalist," as Jurmoswanzh would post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif ... but seems to work better than some of the high expensive stuff out there.

NonWonderDog
06-21-2005, 11:51 PM
I can not, for the life of me, use racing pedals for rudder input. I always end up pushing both at the same time and getting terminally confused. Using two feet on the things is confusing enough, coordinating a turn with them is impossible.

Anyone know if they make anything like the old Thrustmaster RCS in a USB format? The CH Pro Pedals don't look very appealing, to be honest.

Badsight.
06-22-2005, 12:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">~ Again that is just my opinion, but I feel many share it.

I hope my observations may be of some assistance to others, but the proof is in the testing.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>how about you actually do some & post the results here instead of your "feelings" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HelSqnProtos
06-22-2005, 01:04 AM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">You have a lot of pain badsight -- I really like it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Thanks for bumping the thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif</span>

Badsight.
06-22-2005, 01:07 AM
any serious tester who sees posts such as yours also winces

so you want "fairness" , but did the thought "accuracy" ever cross your mind

WWMaxGunz
06-22-2005, 01:28 AM
Sustained combat turns at 160 kph?

In a plane with 1 G stall speed of what?
1 G stall speed as in the lowest speed you can maintain altitude in straight and level flight?
Ahhh, and for the case of combat turns make that power-on stall speed.

Probably more than 160 kph, ain't it?

Then add that turns without losing height are always at more than 1G.

So where is the part about VVS planes are so tough to fly?

I have sent in a track of me in La5FN climbing in a hard banked spiral and only 200 kph!
My stick is an old POS twisty stick with loads of slop, I had only some trouble and was
able to climb continuous at less than 100% power and rads full open. No overheat in 1200
meters climb.

Only part I like is it doesn't seem to be all the planes affected.

No..... not exactly porked.

JG54_Arnie
06-22-2005, 01:28 AM
Are you sure you are not happy with the Svak? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where's that other testing thread? I'll put the link in here again, there was an update, so it should help. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5011...321096033#9321096033 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5011059923/r/9321096033#9321096033)

And the averages of weapons against eachother. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
weapon Lagg(35series) zero(a6m5) La5F 109G2 190A6 P-47(22) P-39(N)

Svak 7.9 2.8 7.3 7.6 6.6 12.5 5.3

151/20 4.6 2.5 4.7 4.8 7 7 3.7

Hispano 3.7 2.9 6.3 5.5 5.5 6.1 4.5
</pre>

How does this play out when you look at the things we know about the guns historically?


What I'm wondering btw, what exactly are you saying? Are you happy with things as it is? Or does in your opinion something need a change?

Sturm_Williger
06-22-2005, 03:06 AM
Amazing - in the above tests the Hispano takes out a LaGG, a 190A6 and a P47 with less rounds than the 151/20 and is close wrt the other planes tested.

Yet I have NEVER seen a "Hispano is perhaps 15-20% too powerful" thread.


Why do people seem to feel that the LW SHOULDN'T be able to take out a plane in one pass/one burst ? Many of the accounts I've read ( probably less than many people here admittedly ) seem to indicate that this is how most encounters played out.

Not knocking ya, HelSqnProtos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, I have no data charts or graphs, but I've read most of the threads on this board ( and on this subject there were plenty ) and the relative explosive power of the cannon rounds listed in the many documents that were produced makes the above test results look pretty accurate.

Badsight.
06-22-2005, 03:20 AM
but it doesnt "feel" right

& its not "fair"

crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 08:23 AM
Let me clear this up a bit... 160km/h was a not really sustain turn... it was just a turn without stall and not for a long time. Yak series - pretty much all of them are able to hold sustain turn around 190-200km/h but i wouldn`t do it because it`s really riding the edge.
What comrade Protos is trying to say here... he has a X45 setup, which not allow him to apply proper rudder at critical turns and he stalls. The reason i invited him to DF session was rather simple. I see alot of complaining about Yak series, especially at sukhoi.ru. Mr. Protos in his Shvak thread said that Yak stalls over the place and completely porked. On which i replied that they are fine, and still as deadly as ever. He disagreed and i called him out on that. I did not stall once, completely outturning BF109F4 in the Yak7b and Yak1.
Bottom line, and i said the same thing in CWOS... alot of confusion and unhappiness is related to game controllers - meaning now much accuracy you can get out of them and in-game Joystick setup. And as i said before, gentle input is more important then ever.

Cheers!

WWMaxGunz
06-22-2005, 11:00 AM
That's the thing I don't understand or right now believe Ivan.

If 1-G power-off stall speed is 180 kph (La5FN) then just banking the wings even 45 degrees
should cause the plane to lose alt or begin stall at 200 kph.
A breakdown:
Lift is by square of speed all other things the same, 200 kph lift gets 1.23 x 180 kph lift
(I leave the extra drag out as long as speed is maintained.)
1 / 1.23 = .81 is the cosine of the bank angle I should be able to maintain power-off and
cosine of 45 degrees is .707 so I think safely I can say the plane should have to lose alt.
And that is power-off stall speed, all power-on stall speeds I see are higher probably due
to propwash creating asymetric lift despite increased lift on at least one wing.
It's that simple. Slight loss of alt and 45 degree bank fine but 45 degree bank is a 2 G
turn I think, need confirm on that one!

Perhaps the FM has increased lift from propwash without asymetric effects or something,
but if power-on stall speed is lower than power-off then there should not be more clean
lift just for having the fan up front.

As for how long, that is just how long the plane should lose alt or go quickly into full stall. Only in cartoons does anyone run off the cliff and not fall till they look down.

Now when I can bank the plane almost vertical, over 60 degrees at that speed and climb while
I do it, there's a problem to me! Cosine 60 degrees is .5 exactly, I need twice the lift to
keep the plane up and that power-off stall speed is with wings already at critical AOA so no
way I can be pulling more lift at that speed! And I had that plane tilted more than 60!

Oh yes... you want the track? It is still 4.0 but since the FM is the same except for the
SBD there should be no problem, file is trk not ntrk.

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Let me clear this up a bit... 160km/h was a not really sustain turn... it was just a turn without stall and not for a long time. Yak series - pretty much all of them are able to hold sustain turn around 190-200km/h but i wouldn`t do it because it`s really riding the edge.
What comrade Protos is trying to say here... he has a X45 setup, which not allow him to apply proper rudder at critical turns and he stalls. The reason i invited him to DF session was rather simple. I see alot of complaining about Yak series, especially at sukhoi.ru. Mr. Protos in his Shvak thread said that Yak stalls over the place and completely porked. On which i replied that they are fine, and still as deadly as ever. He disagreed and i called him out on that. I did not stall once, completely outturning BF109F4 in the Yak7b and Yak1.
Bottom line, and i said the same thing in CWOS... alot of confusion and unhappiness is related to game controllers - meaning now much accuracy you can get out of them and in-game Joystick setup. And as i said before, gentle input is more important then ever.

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So far my only problem flying the early Yaks, one that makes me want to fly the Lagg, is that I can't for the life of me trim the aircraft to straight and level. Its always rolling and then banking itself into the ground unless I sit on it at all times.

The late Yaks do this too but if you get to about 500kph in level flight then the roll goes away.

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Amazing - in the above tests the Hispano takes out a LaGG, a 190A6 and a P47 with less rounds than the 151/20 and is close wrt the other planes tested.

Yet I have NEVER seen a "Hispano is perhaps 15-20% too powerful" thread.


Why do people seem to feel that the LW SHOULDN'T be able to take out a plane in one pass/one burst ? Many of the accounts I've read ( probably less than many people here admittedly ) seem to indicate that this is how most encounters played out.

Not knocking ya, HelSqnProtos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, I have no data charts or graphs, but I've read most of the threads on this board ( and on this subject there were plenty ) and the relative explosive power of the cannon rounds listed in the many documents that were produced makes the above test results look pretty accurate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hispano was ment tobe abit better, according to various tables http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzzsaw-
06-22-2005, 05:15 PM
Salute Max

You should try the 109G2 as well.

At 90% manual prop pitch, and 110% throttle, it will do the same things that a La-5FN will do. In fact I find I can turn and climb at 160 kph.

WWMaxGunz
06-22-2005, 05:37 PM
I wasn't able to keep the G-2 banked over as hard, it would go squirelly on me where the
La5FN was hardly any problem at all stability-wise.

Maybe if I tweak my roll axis stick settings it will settle down.

P-51 trying to bank and do any of that is a wild pony, maybe the worst I tried. At higher
speeds though... well, reasonable speeds to do those things it is much better as long as I'm
real careful with the stick. And I am careful but the stick is loose and cheap like skank.

CruiseTorpedo
06-23-2005, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Let me clear this up a bit... 160km/h was a not really sustain turn... it was just a turn without stall and not for a long time. Yak series - pretty much all of them are able to hold sustain turn around 190-200km/h but i wouldn`t do it because it`s really riding the edge.
What comrade Protos is trying to say here... he has a X45 setup, which not allow him to apply proper rudder at critical turns and he stalls. The reason i invited him to DF session was rather simple. I see alot of complaining about Yak series, especially at sukhoi.ru. Mr. Protos in his Shvak thread said that Yak stalls over the place and completely porked. On which i replied that they are fine, and still as deadly as ever. He disagreed and i called him out on that. I did not stall once, completely outturning BF109F4 in the Yak7b and Yak1.
Bottom line, and i said the same thing in CWOS... alot of confusion and unhappiness is related to game controllers - meaning now much accuracy you can get out of them and in-game Joystick setup. And as i said before, gentle input is more important then ever.

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldnt agree more with this. Just wish my msffb2 stick didnt die three times on me or I'd still be using one today.

horseback
06-23-2005, 09:15 PM
In my first post after trying out the 4.0 FM, I said that I wished I had a CH Products franchise, and I still do with 4.01. What I can suggest to those of you having some adjustment problems is to practice in the Wonder Woman view until you get a 'feel' for where the ball is at during various maneuvers by keeping the vector bubble centered in the QMB.

Most of you will be able to make the adjustment faster than you think.

cheers

horseback

HelSqnProtos
06-23-2005, 09:16 PM
Appreciate the tip, but I REFUSE to do wonderwoman view.

JG54_Arnie
06-24-2005, 01:07 AM
You can do manouvres in the plane when looking at the ball. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Just dont look outside. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif