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View Full Version : Suggestion to Oleg: manual prop pich 109 cheat, please turn it off



filiperafaeli
04-03-2005, 01:17 AM
Hello, Dear Oleg,

It is a suggestion to improove realistic results in the game.

I really like the German planes, and in online wars i fly as germans. But what i will say, german pilots will not like. Its will make 109 worst. I dont care, but i prefeer a realistic game.

There is a Exploit/Cheat in the game.

You turn:
prop pich automatic
prop pich manual
prop pich automatic
prop pich manual
prop pich automatic
prop pich manual
and go....

What happens? The RPM go to space and airplane dont **** the engine. And 109 go like a hell.

Why the turn on and off? Because its makes the engine go up, but not enough time to burn engine, then he puts back, and turns on, off, on, off. etc.

See here:

In that famous world championchip in china:
http://www.saitek.ru/tracks/icas/Single%20Match/d_RUS/

get this tracks:
Etre33_Viks.ntrk / 795.86 Кб
Etre33_Viks2.ntrk / 2.8 œб
Etre33_Viks3.ntrk / 2.11 œб

Look at the RPM when they are climbing:

(funny to see too that the winner didnt know that the plane have a better rate of climb at 260k/h instead of 150km/h)

Please, turn off this cheat. Impossible to do in real plane.

Filipe

Von_Zero
04-03-2005, 01:51 AM
question: why would be imposible to do in RL? i suppose the automatic prop pitch simply takes care that the RPM stays between certain values, and ease the burden on the pilot, since he doesn't have to take care of it, so if you turn it off, why shouldn't you be able to push the engine for some more RPM (with the obvious risk of destroying the engine?) Pilots could change between manual and automatic anytime, in fact it was recomended that takeoff and landing should be done with manual pitch, just in case the auto device has a failure.

filiperafaeli
04-03-2005, 01:55 AM
Look the RPM in the tracks and you will understand what im saying.

Badsight.
04-03-2005, 02:00 AM
that manuel prop pitch gives increased performance isnt wrong (HP = Torque x RPM)

what isnt correct is the change speed (manuel to auto , & vice versa)

Badsight.
04-03-2005, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Zero:
question: why would be imposible to do in RL? i suppose the automatic prop pitch simply takes care that the RPM stays between certain values, and ease the burden on the pilot, since he doesn't have to take care of it, so if you turn it off, why shouldn't you be able to push the engine for some more RPM (with the obvious risk of destroying the engine?) Pilots could change between manual and automatic anytime, in fact it was recomended that takeoff and landing should be done with manual pitch, just in case the auto device has a failure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>it was discussed in-depth at the german FB forum

the change time/speed is incorrect compared to the RL procedure

i think that there should be a difference between CSP prop & non-CSP prop planes

TheGozr
04-03-2005, 02:07 AM
Very true, and not impressed with this competition settings icons etcc.. very beginer i would say.

filiperafaeli
04-03-2005, 02:09 AM
Exactly, Badsight, you got the point.

Today looks like more a "prop pitch masturbation" than a real procedure.

x__CRASH__x
04-03-2005, 02:22 AM
I just keep it in manual all the time. I don't see the point of ever taking it out of manual. The auto prop just responds too slow in the ever changing DF.

Von_Zero
04-03-2005, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
the change time/speed is incorrect compared to the RL procedure

i think that there should be a difference between CSP prop & non-CSP prop planes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see. So basically we need some sort of a delay from the moment when you switch it to the moment it actually switches to the other mode? Maybe a delay like we have for trim now? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BBB_Hyperion
04-03-2005, 06:27 AM
Though April 1st was over check the date of the icas track it was fixed in a patch after it that is not possible to that degree anymore. And when you think you can still manage that then provide a track yourself and dont post ages old tracks from events of the past. That track was from ICAS Tournament in China and this version is hardly in common use anymore.

Vipez-
04-03-2005, 07:55 AM
I admit, but i use manual pitch too in the 109.. reason is simple, automatic pitch control does not give the power it should sometimes, E-4 and E-7 are good examples, giving too low average rpm, comparing what the real DB-601 gave on average..

This needs correcting yes, but I doubt we will see it.. btw. Automatic controls just fine in Spit9 for example, you can turn manual on, but you won't gain any increased perfomance, because automatic works just fine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

About those tracks, I figure that was many patches ago.. it's not neccessarily the same in current version, or is it?

I am more worried about Fockewulf's Kommandoger¤t, which forces me to use manual pitch at all times. Realistic ? No http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Real 190-pilots did not need to that..

p1ngu666
04-03-2005, 09:36 AM
spitfires automatic is different i think, the manual is normal csp.

over reving will do way more damage than the proportional rev increase.


not sure if theres a need to have manual on the 109, well later ones anyways..

msalama
04-03-2005, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the change time/speed is incorrect compared to the RL procedure <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, easier to ask than try it out now (not @ my IL-2 machine @ the moment): incorrect how - too fast or too slow?

In general I dunno 'bout switching it off altogether - wouldn't be historical...

JG5_UnKle
04-03-2005, 12:43 PM
This exploit doesn't exist anymore like Hyperion pointed out - it was removed several patches ago.

filiperafaeli
04-03-2005, 04:56 PM
Negative.

Prop pitch masturbation cheat is still available.

pourshot
04-03-2005, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This needs correcting yes, but I doubt we will see it.. btw. Automatic controls just fine in Spit9 for example, you can turn manual on, but you won't gain any increased perfomance, because automatic works just fine
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That€s not 100% correct in fact there is a small bug in the auto prop pitch on the mkIX that at certain speeds will not allow the spit to pull full revs without WEP, for example at take off it seems to get stuck at around 2700rpm until speed increases or WEP is applied. I made a track and showed it to Oleg (thanks IvanK) and he agreed it was a bug and maybe it will be fixed in the next patch.

Badsight.
04-03-2005, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
reason is simple, automatic pitch control does not give the power it should sometimes, E-4 and E-7 are good examples, giving too low average rpm, comparing what the real DB-601 gave on average... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>& the Emils were reduced in flight performance again when the Hein was out , much like how the P-11 was altered when we got the new Biplanes

(altered to more real ?)

either way , once your slow , DB601 feels like a tractor

Buzzsaw-
04-04-2005, 12:50 AM
Salute

Anyone who even remotely knows anything about the German aircraft knows that Manual prop pitch will give around a LARGE increase in climbrate.

And you can do it perfectly safely. You just need a manual/auto pitch switch on your joystick and the prop pitch percentage set on your mouse wheel or something similar. Anytime you are going up, you go manual, anytime you are going down, or in level dogfight, you go auto to prevent overrevs. It is very simple and easy way to gain huge amount of ahistorical extra performance.

The reason that the IL-2 109 in particular is able to do this, is that it is able to climb at much steeper angles, and lower speeds than were historically useful because the G2 and later 109's have TOO LOW A STALL SPEED. For example, the K4 is stalling at 140kph instead of the 170 it should, and the G2 is stalling at 130 kph instead of 155 kph. With the lower than historical stall speed, they are able to climb at low speeds and a steep angle.

Historically, 270 kph was the best climb speed for the G models and later, and going to lower speeds with a higher Angle of Attack was counterproductive. But in this game, you can crank the nose of a K4 up at an impossible angle, and climb at 200 kph with manual pitch. And you have no fear of overreving when the nose is up, its easy to keep to 2800 rpm, and if you go over a bit, there is no effect. Only really high overrevs affect the engine, and that only happens in dives or level flight, and as mentioned, you switch back to auto when you level out or dive.

109 fanatics always insist that it is perfectly ok to for the aircraft to climb faster than historically when in manual pitch but it is actually nonsense.

The historical German testers flew their aircraft for the best possible climbrate, and did not artificially reduce it for some bizarre bureaucratic reason. When you see 270 kph listed as the best climb speed in the Pilot's Flight Manuals, it is because tests showed that it was. And the suggestion that the German pilots did not know about the manual pitch setting for climbs is nonsense.

The problem is the far too low stall speed of the later 109's which allows them to take advantage of this manual pitch setting.

This has not changed for the last few patches, although Oleg did introduce some changes before that so that it is now not possible to overrev to your hearts content as it was possible to do in earlier versions of the FORGOTTEN BATTLES FM. But as mentioned, it is really simple to overcome this handicap by going auto in dives and level flight to prevent overrevs. And if you are in a steady level flight, you can use manual pitch too. It is only when you are diving that there is a serious problem with overrevs.

And by the way, this can all be accomplished at no more than 100% throttle as the historical testers used. I set my throttle at 99% when in manual pitch and vary the pitch to control the revs. You never have to use MW-50 or anything like that, you never get overheating, and never have to open the rad to fully open as you have to do if you use MW-50 while in auto pitch.

But you still get far better than historical climbrates.

Badsight.
04-04-2005, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>although Oleg did introduce some changes before that so that it is now not possible to overrev to your hearts content as it was possible to do in earlier versions of the FORGOTTEN BATTLES FM. But as mentioned, it is really simple to overcome this handicap by going auto in dives and level flight to prevent overrevs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>yes FB v1.0 , changed in the very first patch

manual pitch should enable greater performance , more HP & greater prop speed , saying that manuel shouldnt goes against how the plane actually works

over 3000 rpm even for only a second lowers your engine lifespan , you cannot go over this at all without repercussions , which is also true for MW50 useage over 10 minutes

Fennec_P
04-04-2005, 01:23 AM
A similar thing seems to apply to the FW-190, by getting higher RPM in manual mode.

Engine heat seems to increase as a consequence, and you can break the motor if you do a high speed dive.

AFJMantis
04-04-2005, 01:45 AM
The manual/auto manual/auto prop pitch exlpoit does not work the same way anymore, however an experienced 109 pilot can over rev his engine and bump it back down again from maybe 95-85 95-90 95-80 ect of course this will damage engine but can be done for a short time.I do feel however that the speed in which you can do this is an exploit.

anarchy52
04-04-2005, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
...you cannot go over this at all without repercussions , which is also true for MW50 useage over 10 minutes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunatelly, engine cooks much before 10 minutes (about 5-6 minutes before irreversible damage) but haven't tested since PF. Bf-109 manual says 10 minutes of MW50 is allowed. As for stall speeds most planes in FB have overmodelled stall speed and low speed handling, 109 is no exception.

filiperafaeli
04-04-2005, 03:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Historically, 270 kph was the best climb speed for the G models and later, and going to lower speeds with a higher Angle of Attack was counterproductive. But in this game, you can crank the nose of a K4 up at an impossible angle, and climb at 200 kph with manual pitch. And you have no fear of overreving when the nose is up, its easy to keep to 2800 rpm, and if you go over a bit, there is no effect.

When you see 270 kph listed as the best climb speed in the Pilot's Flight Manuals, it is because tests showed that it was. And the suggestion that the German pilots did not know about the manual pitch setting for climbs is nonsense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzzsaw, you are making a little of confusion.

The prop pitch masturbation is to get more energy. And you choose how you wanna use it. Climbing, running, etc.

But, the confusion is, there is two things:

1 - Speed for the best rate of climb (260 in 109s)
2 - Best angle of climbing (close to stall speed).

Get the Il2 compare and look this graphics.

The two situation are usefull in combat, depends on situation. But for sure, to climb alone, the best is the option 1. In some situation on combat, is good to climb in a speep angle.

See you, Filipe

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2005, 03:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
...you cannot go over this at all without repercussions , which is also true for MW50 useage over 10 minutes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunatelly, engine cooks much before 10 minutes (about 5-6 minutes before irreversible damage) but haven't tested since PF. Bf-109 manual says 10 minutes of MW50 is allowed. As for stall speeds most planes in FB have overmodelled stall speed and low speed handling, 109 is no exception. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, you can fly with 103%, MW50 enabled and cooler open for 26min (than MW50 is emtpy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in game.
the proplem is that there should be no such 103% setting. there should be
100%=Kampfleistung-military
110%(call it like that)=Start/Notleistung-war emergency power
and 110%+MW50=Sondernotleistung
only .
but thatss a gemeengine limitation.

Vipez-
04-04-2005, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by filiperafaeli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Historically, 270 kph was the best climb speed for the G models and later, and going to lower speeds with a higher Angle of Attack was counterproductive. But in this game, you can crank the nose of a K4 up at an impossible angle, and climb at 200 kph with manual pitch. And you have no fear of overreving when the nose is up, its easy to keep to 2800 rpm, and if you go over a bit, there is no effect.

When you see 270 kph listed as the best climb speed in the Pilot's Flight Manuals, it is because tests showed that it was. And the suggestion that the German pilots did not know about the manual pitch setting for climbs is nonsense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buzzsaw, you are making a little of confusion.

The prop pitch masturbation is to get more energy. And you choose how you wanna use it. Climbing, running, etc.

But, the confusion is, there is two things:

1 - Speed for the best rate of climb (260 in 109s)
2 - Best angle of climbing (close to stall speed).

Get the Il2 compare and look this graphics.

The two situation are usefull in combat, depends on situation. But for sure, to climb alone, the best is the option 1. In some situation on combat, is good to climb in a speep angle.

See you, Filipe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very few planes in the sim at the moment have correct optimal angle of climb.. For example, I feel like i climb better with the Jug at around 220-230 kmh instead of around 300-350 kmh..

And same goes for Spit 9, it climbs very good around 200 kmh.. like the 109s.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

anarchy52
04-04-2005, 03:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
well, you can fly with 103%, MW50 enabled and cooler open for 26min (than MW50 is emtpy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) in game.
the proplem is that there should be no such 103% setting. there should be
100%=Kampfleistung-military
110%(call it like that)=Start/Notleistung-war emergency power
and 110%+MW50=Sondernotleistung
only .
but thatss a gemeengine limitation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
10 min limit is for Sondernotleistung or Start/Notleistung?

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2005, 03:59 AM
the 10min restriction was mentioned here for MW50 use.
so it was for Sondernotleistung
= 110% + MW50

if that work in PF , dodnt know.
i only know that after ~5min20sec the Bf109 engine gets damaged when running in overheat condition

BBB_Hyperion
04-04-2005, 05:02 AM
There are only 2 things that i dont like on the prop pitch . The Switch to manual ends in latest setting 100 % for example not the current last pitch state auto mode has set. And the time for switching between aoa on the blades but who knows which is the correct time .) I think oleg has the better sources there as some rebuilders of 109s send in the data.

Manual Pitch (I would call it semi auto cause it wasnt really manual push of a button increased blade angle or decreased)was used in combat according to oleg and copied on later russian planes course of the advantage it did give.

Its intresting that more exploits of the fm using pitch are not mentioned so i will be quiet about this aspects then .)

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 07:22 AM
theres the mw50 exploit too

mw50 ruins engine after 5mins accordin to those above (was 8 when i tested last time i think)

so what u do is flick the throttle below 100% for any amount of time then back 110%.

in effect u can run wep for 26mins because u just flick throttle for a moment, even less than a second and u are ok...

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
There are only 2 things that i dont like on the prop pitch . The Switch to manual ends in latest setting 100 % for example not the current last pitch state auto mode has set. And the time for switching between aoa on the blades but who knows which is the correct time .) I think oleg has the better sources there as some rebuilders of 109s send in the data.

Manual Pitch (I would call it semi auto cause it wasnt really manual push of a button increased blade angle or decreased)was used in combat according to oleg and copied on later russian planes course of the advantage it did give.

Its intresting that more exploits of the fm using pitch are not mentioned so i will be quiet about this aspects then .) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u can ~preset~ manual pitch in PF now i thought?

hit pitch -5% a few times, then switch to manual and u at 90 or whatever pitch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2005, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
There are only 2 things that i dont like on the prop pitch . The Switch to manual ends in latest setting 100 % for example not the current last pitch state auto mode has set. And the time for switching between aoa on the blades but who knows which is the correct time .) I think oleg has the better sources there as some rebuilders of 109s send in the data.

Manual Pitch (I would call it semi auto cause it wasnt really manual push of a button increased blade angle or decreased)was used in combat according to oleg and copied on later russian planes course of the advantage it did give.

Its intresting that more exploits of the fm using pitch are not mentioned so i will be quiet about this aspects then .) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u can ~preset~ manual pitch in PF now i thought?

hit pitch -5% a few times, then switch to manual and u at 90 or whatever pitch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, is working. nevertheless it would realy be better if the auto setting would become the manual setting when switching.

and about MW50 use time.
the only limitation is the amount of fluid (for 26min, whatever powersetting over 100%) and the engine overheat.
i can run at 103%, cooler open for the full 26min without any overheat.

BBB_Hyperion
04-04-2005, 08:30 AM
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/mw50.jpg

repost warning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well surely before anyone touches boost the non boost 100 % values for some LW planes need to be looked into .)

I agree however that there is some confusion on the boost thing . But i am not that familar with this boost system to judge if it wasnt possible to reduce increase engine power while mw50 was running . Surely with increase , decrease of power output cause less fuel is injected and less pressure build up the effect of the mw50 might not be that heating when its fully loaded.

The effect of the Mw50 is that it changes the ignition point (delays it) the water cooles down the compressed gased fuel that allows higher compression in the engine with more output. Why this shouldnt work with less fuel ? While i think mw50 could only be injected at a certain rate over 100 % cause the mixture between fuel and mw50 must hold some certain % set.

Vipez-
04-04-2005, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
theres the mw50 exploit too

mw50 ruins engine after 5mins accordin to those above (was 8 when i tested last time i think)

so what u do is flick the throttle below 100% for any amount of time then back 110%.

in effect u can run wep for 26mins because u just flick throttle for a moment, even less than a second and u are ok... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar thing works in some other planes too, one of them is the spit9, you can run full throttle plus wep in spit9, when you get overheat throttle down below 100 % for few secs, then throttle up and off you go with full power + web for some time again .. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's wierd..

JG5_UnKle
04-04-2005, 02:21 PM
Well I must be missing something then because I didn't think you could use the lame Prop Pitch exploit show in the China competition?

Maybe I just fly my 109 too "honestly" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
theres the mw50 exploit too

mw50 ruins engine after 5mins accordin to those above (was 8 when i tested last time i think)

so what u do is flick the throttle below 100% for any amount of time then back 110%.

in effect u can run wep for 26mins because u just flick throttle for a moment, even less than a second and u are ok... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar thing works in some other planes too, one of them is the spit9, you can run full throttle plus wep in spit9, when you get overheat throttle down below 100 % for few secs, then throttle up and off you go with full power + web for some time again .. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's wierd.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed, cant really do that on p47 corsair etc, take along time to cool down, but u can overheat them along time

a friend suggested that mw50 effects lubrication, dries the oil out, hence the rest period so the oil gets moved around...

also spark plugs could foul up, and overheating of certain parts of engine.

a constant 26mins at full power should be less damaging than putting it though heat cycles http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

btw, 18lbs became what would be 100% (no wep) when aircraft where upgraded to 25lb boost maxium, so it should be ok...

190 can do that also http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

faustnik
04-04-2005, 03:54 PM
Did you guys get the Spit IX to overheat under 6K meters? How long did it take? We have tested it in extended DFs under 6K with WEP + full throttle with no overheat for at least 15 minutes. All other a/c at that setting overheat in about 5. BUT, as soon as we take the Spit IX over 6K, it gets instant overheat???

**********************

Oh, but, sorry to digress. Please continue with the Bf109 counterwhine attempt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tolwyn.com
04-04-2005, 04:19 PM
The exploit is real. Unfortunately, you can't patch human behavior. And I'm not sure how Oleg would go about changing this?

Know who you're flying with.
For competitions, submit tracks. Penalize this type of behavior.

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 04:38 PM
he could make it the same as the spitfire system?

auto, and then cps, so u can make engine last longer when u get oil leak or whatever.

without over rev, theres no advantage to 109 prop pitch over cps is there?

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Did you guys get the Spit IX to overheat under 6K meters? How long did it take? We have tested it in extended DFs under 6K with WEP + full throttle with no overheat for at least 15 minutes. All other a/c at that setting overheat in about 5. BUT, as soon as we take the Spit IX over 6K, it gets instant overheat???

**********************

Oh, but, sorry to digress. Please continue with the Bf109 counterwhine attempt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i can get it to overheat, did day before yesterday anyways, but not sure if that was before oil leak or after, if u go fast enuff then u wont overheat.

ironic at 6k up it overheats easy (just going by what u say, dont often fly spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) because thats where it loses power roughly. yak has same problem, but worse ( power of 2cv, overheat bad)

faustnik
04-04-2005, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:

ironic at 6k up it overheats easy (just going by what u say, dont often fly spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) because thats where it loses power roughly. yak has same problem, but worse ( power of 2cv, overheat bad) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try it, like magic, instant overheat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BBB_Hyperion
04-04-2005, 05:10 PM
Yet i have to see a track of 3.04 that uses same approach as suggested and gains something with it.

That you can use manual pitch is historic and no cheat.

faustnik
04-04-2005, 05:12 PM
The Fw190 had pitch adjustment right on the throttle. A slick one handed setup.

p1ngu666
04-04-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:

ironic at 6k up it overheats easy (just going by what u say, dont often fly spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) because thats where it loses power roughly. yak has same problem, but worse ( power of 2cv, overheat bad) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try it, like magic, instant overheat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oks, btw i think b25 has overheat linked to manifold pressure, done entire missions at full throttle up high http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

nearmiss
04-04-2005, 07:35 PM
Can't touch this...

If you do we'll lose all the players using it.

Ray Ban Jockey left us when Oleg reconfigured the trim cheat.

Now all you have to do is get it full trim before you engage and keep Down Nose pressure on the stick.

I don't use this so-called cheat, but if I did I just build a macro on my FF2 and click it in when I needed it or vs v.

Voila! nothing to it, but to do it.

I know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif it's not fair http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Buzzsaw-
04-04-2005, 09:43 PM
Salute

If you keep the trim at full on as soon as you enter combat, you will get much higher speed bleed due to the fact that the trim is working against balanced level flight. So when you level out and try to accelerate, you will not see as good a response. Same in zooms.

nearmiss
04-05-2005, 12:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

If you keep the trim at full on as soon as you enter combat, you will get much higher speed bleed due to the fact that the trim is working against balanced level flight. So when you level out and try to accelerate, you will not see as good a response. Same in zooms. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Loop der Loop is yur answer... or better known as keep on a turnin' while you're in the heat.

Seriously... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HelSqnProtos
04-05-2005, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by filiperafaeli:
Negative.

Prop pitch masturbation cheat is still available. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S~!

Holy Smoke!! I am actually agreeing with Filiperafaeli. Unbelievable but true. This is still used by a lot of 109 drivers. I have a guy in our Squadron who is an artist at this when he's flying bf's.

Lazy312
04-05-2005, 02:03 AM
I agree with Raf here. Using manual pitch in combat is nonhistorical and arcadish.

anarchy52
04-05-2005, 02:08 AM
I never use manual pitch in 109 as it tends to fry the engine in a milisecond if it goes near 3000 rpm. What I do find usefull is when you're trying to save fuel: reduce the throttle to 50% and use prop pitch to keep reasoneable rpm.

anarchy52
04-05-2005, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lazy312:
I agree with Raf here. Using manual pitch in combat is nonhistorical and arcadish. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction:
switching AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100% in combat is not historical.

JG5_UnKle
04-05-2005, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lazy312:
I agree with Raf here. Using manual pitch in combat is nonhistorical and arcadish. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction:
switching AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100%-AUTO-MANUAL 100% in combat is not historical. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll admit I've never tried it but I thought this exploit was gone - can someone post a track of switching Manual-Auto and gaining from it? I thought it was an instant engine killer now?

BBB_Hyperion
04-05-2005, 08:14 AM
Test results

Crimea K4 100 % fuel start speed 340 km/h ias sea level climb to 5k (m) climbspeed about 270 TAS

Manual Pitch 2:39 to 5k
Auto Pitch 3:06 to 5k
Auto/Manual Pitch 2:37 to 5k
Manual Pitch 2:33 to 5k
(pitch up/down over engine limit)

Note engine on all 4 test runs was overheated and close to damage if not already in.

For this tests i used the increase decrease pitch button that is 5 % with mapping to a slider finer control inputs maybe possible to allow even better performance in manual mode.

There is no significant advantage in using auto/manual vs manual except the small issue that it restores last pitch setting and not as it should last auto pitch state as i mentioned earlier.

It is out of question that manual pitch existed and that it could be used to get the last hp out of the engine (in some cases literaly). This spool up event is possible in auto and manual mode.

p1ngu666
04-05-2005, 10:52 AM
u would do better, much better using a slider for prop pitch

btw u should get better fuel economy with high boost and low revs, well thats the way todo it on merlin, alison, im guessing db engine similer

carguy_
04-07-2005, 06:52 PM
I did use manual pp back in FB before 1.20 when it got changed.

I could go for 3100RPM on non Emil types and squeeze much power out of it.Since 1.20 I sue auto because everytime I cook the engine on manual now.There`s a good side of this,mainly that I`m able to focus on the positioning of the enemy.However the historically bigger climb rate of Me109 over most other planes doesn`t exist actually.Uhuh no spiral climb with auto anymore.

You just climb and climb and see the plane behind you closing in.You get a Yak on coalt you run away or you`re dead.
Don`t dare talking to me about overboosting the anegine if you fly Spit VLF or IX!

Manual gives correct speed&climbrate but its not safe since 1.20.You want to define the word 'pathetic'?Take Emil on auto and let it work on 2300RPM on combat power 100%.

Buzzsaw I see you forcing the Me109 stall speed issue but I don`t see you forcing other high grade issues like overmodelled Spit @alt 5000-7000m and you are trying to prove the MG151/20 issue is completely irrelevant.A little truth here,please.


As for the exploit as I call it Viks showed what ppl wanting to win all the time can do.Trim exploit,pp exploit,103% throttle exploit.I don`t do them.That`s like firing every fift shell at the plane(all others missed deliberately) because it`s most effective or putting max brightness on yer monitor to avoid blackout.

I don`t search for game exploits I just fly the plane.I don`t understand why they do it.Maybe its just the type of silly little boys that discovered "rocket jump" exploit in Quake.

Losers will always find a way to win a different way.As the guy said you can`t patch human behaviour.Use the plane`s historical advantages to shoot enemies,losers!

WWMaxGunz
04-07-2005, 09:12 PM
What? If I only hit with every 5th shell, it's better than hitting with all of em?

Put that one somewhere under "confused" please.

F19_Ob
04-10-2005, 10:30 AM
Hello mates...

Still after some years of searching I still haven't found anything in the litterature that indicates that prop-pitch was used at manual setting in combat.
I have found the usual about start and landing and manual setting during economy-cruise.
The Finns even avoided to use the manual setting even on takeoff and landing and had the prop pitch on auto during the whole flight exept for cruise.
The Germans saw the Finns as acomplished pilots and were impressed how they could land on short strips wich always was dangerous. There ofcourse was mostly short or bad strips in finnland.

If someone have any source about the use of manual prop-pitch in combat , please notify me.

Another matter is the use of boost in the 109 wich should be used 2 mins at a time to avoid to damage the engine wich was a fact otherwise. This info is quite common in litterature and I heard it last in an interview with Frans stiegler.


I only fly the 109 on autosettings and use the boost sparingly. Dont have to use boost at all for most flights since it has more than enough power and accelleration compared to most allied planes anyway.
If I'm shot down it's usually not because I had too little power. No power helps if u dont spot the attacker in time.

my take on it for the moment...

NVP1
04-10-2005, 11:00 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by F19_Ob:


....

Another matter is the use of boost in the 109 wich should be used 2 mins at a time to avoid to damage the engine wich was a fact otherwise. This info is quite common in litterature and I heard it last in an interview with Frans stiegler.

...
QUOTE]


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifhttp://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/780152e08e.jpg

F19_Ob
04-11-2005, 03:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NVP1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by F19_Ob:


....

Another matter is the use of boost in the 109 wich should be used 2 mins at a time to avoid to damage the engine wich was a fact otherwise. This info is quite common in litterature and I heard it last in an interview with Frans stiegler.

...
QUOTE]


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifhttp://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/780152e08e.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks NVP1 but that doesn't help much....is that from a manual?
Would you mind posting a source plz?

I came across something similar at one point but it didn't lead to any source either.
The only info I got on this is from interviews with bf109 pilots and their answer was ; a couple of minutes, not more at a time.
I had no reason to believe they were wrong in that since they were experienced flyers and when it came from multiple pilots aswell.

The score is now equal mate... your move http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Skalgrim
04-11-2005, 03:39 AM
when you use german dokument that lean reading german, i can never read only 2min mw50

when you only trust pilots comments, then go please microsft american sim, they will like you



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NVP1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by F19_Ob:


....

Another matter is the use of boost in the 109 wich should be used 2 mins at a time to avoid to damage the engine wich was a fact otherwise. This info is quite common in litterature and I heard it last in an interview with Frans stiegler.

...
QUOTE]


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifhttp://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/780152e08e.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F19_Ob
04-11-2005, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skalgrim:
when you use german dokument that lean reading german, i can never read only 2min mw50

when you only trust pilots comments, then go please microsft american sim, they will like you
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well mate... sometimes sources contradict eachother. Pilots may go against statistics and so on...After some reading in the field of aircombat one finds that contradictory statements are common.
The pilot is to me a very important source of information.

The 2 mins of boost use, that in my view experienced pilots have given, is hard for me to critisize...I've had no reason to question that before. I have read this statement several times from different pilots during my reading about aircombat and thus it feels very strange that the pilots who flew these planes should be wrong about an important thing like that...making the same mistake I mean.

If I'm wrong in this matter its no big deal (I've been wrong before)...but that also means that those german pilots didn't know what they were talking about and that feels harder to cope with at the moment.
------------------------------------

Another similar example is the use of manual prop-pitch in combat in the 109.
I have not yet found anything in the litterature to prove this...On the other hand I have read several interviews with pilots stating they used autosettings only. Who can I trust if not the pilot who flew the plane?

The Finns did not use the recommended manual propsetting at landing and takeoff, they used auto, seemingly to be absolutely sure not to even risk damage to their few 109.
A clear case of going against what as written.
and something what could cause similar problems as with the boost issue...


Anyway...It would be interesting to find out more about the boost matter.
So a source would be nice....I can work it from there.

Skalgrim
04-11-2005, 05:31 AM
yes i think, the pilots mix up wep with mw50


wep was only for 2-3min, but mw50 was 10mim,

keep in the mind the ww2 airbattle was for over 60 year, and i believe some pilots mix up some things.

too many good formel 1 driver knowing nothing from his car, but could nevertheless drive this car.

mw50 was only end of the war use, until this had 109 only 2-3min wep, that is probable reason that some pilots remember on those short time and mix up with mw50.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skalgrim:
when you use german dokument that lean reading german, i can never read only 2min mw50

when you only trust pilots comments, then go please microsft american sim, they will like you
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well mate... sometimes sources contradict eachother. Pilots may go against statistics and so on...After some reading in the field of aircombat one finds that contradictory statements are common.
The pilot is to me a very important source of information.

The 2 mins of boost use, that in my view experienced pilots have given, is hard for me to critisize...I've had no reason to question that before. I have read this statement several times from different pilots during my reading about aircombat and thus it feels very strange that the pilots who flew these planes should be wrong about an important thing like that...making the same mistake I mean.

If I'm wrong in this matter its no big deal (I've been wrong before)...but that also means that those german pilots didn't know what they were talking about and that feels harder to cope with at the moment.
------------------------------------

Another similar example is the use of manual prop-pitch in combat in the 109.
I have not yet found anything in the litterature to prove this...On the other hand I have read several interviews with pilots stating they used autosettings only. Who can I trust if not the pilot who flew the plane?

The Finns did not use the recommended manual propsetting at landing and takeoff, they used auto, seemingly to be absolutely sure not to even risk damage to their few 109.
A clear case of going against what as written.
and something what could cause similar problems as with the boost issue...


Anyway...It would be interesting to find out more about the boost matter.
So a source would be nice....I can work it from there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F19_Ob
04-11-2005, 06:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skalgri


mw50 was only end of the war use, until this had 109 only 2-3min wep, that is probable reason that some pilots remember on those short time and mix up with mw50.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could absolutely be so....atleast seem likely.

p1ngu666
04-11-2005, 08:14 AM
the offical limit was 10mins, BUT pilots would only use a few mins instead, scared of trashing engine

BigganD
04-11-2005, 03:08 PM
"turn manual prop off, make it more realistic" a joke,lol. I would that they turn off the boost in the spit9 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

lrrp22
04-11-2005, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skalgrim:
yes i think, the pilots mix up wep with mw50
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or it could be that, at that point in the war, the equipment was not capable of sustaining the claimed performance due to the conditions under which it was manufactured. You simply cannot dismiss the manufacturing challenges faced by Germany towards the end of the war, although I'm sure some here will try.

BBB_Hyperion
04-11-2005, 09:11 PM
Doesnt really matter cause production standard is best available on all planes in this sim.

More a problem should be the engine wear cause where to get a reliable replacement engine when production is already short.

Or maybe 1 or 2 Minutes boost was enough for most df situations.

F19_Ob
04-12-2005, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the offical limit was 10mins, BUT pilots would only use a few mins instead, scared of trashing engine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, that is one thing I have heard earlier aswell.
One other piece I got about that was that although engines was available these would not bee changed after every flight even if the boost had been used hard.
There was a risk, although small that the engine "could" fault the next time it was stressed.

I also think skalgrims suggestion was interesting and he is right that it has gone a long time since the war and some details may be blurred.

"mw50 was only end of the war use, until this had 109 only 2-3min wep, that is probable reason that some pilots remember on those short time and mix up with mw50."


I ofcourse still not have the full picture
but it's interesting with multiple variables and it clearly shows how complicated things become when one ask oneself some intelligent questions.

Forums are great for creating new lines of thought.

thanks for the input p1ngu666, Irrp22, Hyperion and skalgrim.