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Fish6891
11-02-2004, 12:33 AM
From looking around, its seems to me from ur posts and from what other ppl say about you that you are the Focke Wulf Guru around here, I was wonderin if u wouldnt mind helpin me out a bit.

Can u tell me the best climb and turn speeds for A9 D9(44 version) and TA152H? At What altitudes are they most effective? Is it true that the A-series FWs are ONLY good for hit and run, and are usually only successful with element of surprise? Can they not stay and tangle with other A/C? What about 44'Dora, Can it mix it up or is it purely hit and run? I would think it would make a good E fighter but then again I dunno, thats why I'm typin this. Same question for the TA.

How do they compare to each other? From what I've tried I think 44'D9 is fastest, then TA, the A9.
A9 has best firepower, then TA, then 44'D9.
44'D9 accelerates best, then TA, then A9.
A9 rolls best, then 44'D9, then TA.
At high speeds 44'D9 seems to turn best, at lower speeds TA, A9 comes in last in turning department.
At steady climbs both 44'D9 and TA climb pretty nice, not sure which climbs better, A9 loses in climbing department.
Zoom climb: I think Dora is best at this, then TA, then A9.
I tried them out at around 4000-5000m btw.

Now how do they compare to some of their adversaries, in paticular P51 SpitIXHF and La7. I think 44'Dora can outclimb P51 and La7 but not so sure about Spit. I think it can only out turn them at speeds 450km/h and higher. I think it out-rolls them all. I think its faster than all of them and accelerates better than all of them. I think it can zoom climb better than all of them.

I think TA is faster and accelerates better than call of them. I think it outclimbs P51 and La7, again not sure about Spit tho. I think it out turns them all at 450km/h or higher and maybe can turn with P51 at lower speeds. I'm not sure how its roll compares to them, and
I think it zoom climbs better than all three.

I dont think the A9 can outclimb any of them, I think the A9 is faster than Spit but not sure about P51 and La7, I'm not sure if it accelerates better than these three. It think it out rolls them all, I think it only out turns them at speeds above 450km/h, and I think it zoom climbs better than them.

Tell me what u agree with and dont agree with and add any helpful info.

Thanks in Advance,
The Fish

P.S. I like the FWs, they are different and cool

Fish6891
11-02-2004, 01:23 AM
o, btw, I use PF+FB+AEP

Zen--
11-02-2004, 06:31 AM
Howdy Fish,

I'm not the only one who has experience with the 190, but I'll share what I know which is mostly about the D9 44'. Hunde and others know more about the Antons than I do and I'm sure they'll chime in. Also I am still evaluating PF so most of my experience naturally is with FB when the Dora was introduced and the Tank with AEP release, though I have been flying the Anton since IL2 original.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How do they compare to each other? From what I've tried I think 44'D9 is fastest, then TA, the A9.
A9 has best firepower, then TA, then 44'D9.
44'D9 accelerates best, then TA, then A9.
A9 rolls best, then 44'D9, then TA.
At high speeds 44'D9 seems to turn best, at lower speeds TA, A9 comes in last in turning department.
At steady climbs both 44'D9 and TA climb pretty nice, not sure which climbs better, A9 loses in climbing department.
Zoom climb: I think Dora is best at this, then TA, then A9. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats pretty much the gist of it with the D9 usually coming out slightly ahead of all the rest in most departments. Besides it being my favorite 190, I've always found the Dora to be a more competitive E fighter than the rest of the 190's, though it's not nearly as good at pure BnZ as the Antons due to lack of firepower, and of course it carries no bombs.

(Since the changes to the Ta152 in PF I will go ahead and lump it in with the D9 and make specific note where appropriate)
Best climb speeds are in the 280 km/h range for the D9 with high AoA. In PF I can sustain 24-26m/s climb in the D9 and the Ta152 can now do that as well, or close to it. The A9 never does as good, being somewhere around 22m/s and has always lagged behind the D9 for some reason. Depending on altitude your indicated airspeed might go as low as 200 km/h, but 240-280km/h is a reasonable speed to hold. The key in my opinion is to watch the vertical rate indicator and if you can keep it in the 24-26m/s range, you are holding maximum sustained climb rate. Be aware of using a step-climb technique to take advantage of level acceleration, which is even more effective in PF than ever before. If you notice the bandit gaining on you in the climb, you can drop the nose slightly to pick up speed, then pull back into the sustained climb again. In this way you are effectively getting close to maximum sustained climb speed as well as the benefits of rapid acceleration, sort of combining into a series of mini zoom climbs.
Antons tend to climb at a higher speed with a more shallow angle...I've done pretty well with 380-400km/h climbs and still holding 20m/s vertical rate, though I can't say for sure thats optimal. On paper the A9 should climb the same as the D9 but for whatever reason the version we have in game doesn't, so adjustments have to be made.

The nice thing about the Ta152 now is that it can hold extreme an AoA during zoom climb now, which to my knowledge is reasonable due to it's long span with very large leading edge area. This gives it a very effective ability to energy fight in the last 100km/h of vertical climbing as speed drops from 200km/h down to stall at 120km/h wingover...impressive gains can be made in this low speed range, but naturally there is a great element of risk to flying that close to 0 E state. I wouldn't fly that tactic as a routine, but its nice to know if you end up in a tight ugly little E fight that the Ta might be able to pull out the advantage, whereas before in AEP there was effectively no chance in a Tank. Also I said a long time ago that based on real life accounts I expected the Ta to fly like a D9 but with better turning ability, I think now in PF we have that plane. Energy retention is reasonable, acceleration matches the logical connection with the Dora, turning ability is more practical now due to energy issues being reworked and the plane has considerably better handling overall. Nicely done I say, but it remains to be seen if the global changes in the physics engine that benefit high thrust to weight ratio planes like the Tank will hurt the rest of the sim as a whole...lots of complaints about tame stalling characteristics, infinite turns without E bleed etc, from people who fly lots of other kinds of planes. Time will tell I guess. ]

A good way to test relative zoom climb ability is to start at SL at 600km/h and pull back on the stick until vertical. Hold the aircraft steady with the rudder but let it fall over when it wants to. I pulled on the stick to achieve the vertical climb within about 2-3 seconds in order to minimize E loss during pullup and let the planes zoom to about 150km/h airspeed. It takes a little practice and is a little rough, but it gives you an idea of relative performance...the D9 could achieve close to 1600m altitude with the Ta152 coming in the high 1500's.


As far as historical matchups, I haven't flown PF enough to get a good handle yet but I do have some observations:

D9 vs P51.
This is going to be a really tight match here, just like it used to be in FB 1.22. Back then both planes had nearly identical extreme edge performance during heavy manuevering and they seem to be very closely matched again. The mustang has an edge in turn rate still I think but now the D9 has an advantage in acceleration, which is very usefull during E fighting at close ranges. This matches up very well with many of the historical accounts I've read and is very believable, compared to the 2.04 mustang which had to simply pull back on the stick to defeat the D9. Now in PF both planes will have to fly right on the edge and the guy who makes the first mistake will probably lose...but my money is on the D9 because of the superior acceleration, and maybe because I simply fly it more. The main thing here is to avoid sustained turns with the mustang and try to keep the fight in the vertical, though not necessarily by looping mind you. Don't forget the scissors, when all else fails you can usually force an overshoot or horizontal parity if you fly it right.

D9 vs La7.
Here's another tough match with the advantage overall being with the La7, unless the D9 pilot is very very good. The skill level to fly both planes is markedly different, so the average D9 jock is going to be outclassed by the average La7 jock simply because the La7 is much more of a point and shoot aircraft. This is where it's important to be really familar with the D9 and to know it's fine edge, because the only way to beat an La7 is to either BnZ with altitude advantage, or E fight him on that exact fine edge. The La7 climb rate should be the same as the D9, E retention is going to be better, La7 turn rate obviously extremely better and SL speed is nearly the same so outrunning the La is going to be risky at close range. The only definate advantage the D9 has over the La7 is dive speed (and hopefully now dive acceleration) but while diving is great, by itself it doesn't win fights. A smart La7 driver is going to break off his dive before you do and hover at a higher altitude, so use caution before hitting lightspeed in the dive. You might be able to get down faster, but he might be waiting for you to come back up.

D9 vs Spitfire.
This one is finally fixed and imho is no contest, the D9 is going to outfly the Spit. The spit bleeds E during turns now and can no longer do the vertical 180 degree reversal and catch the D9 like it can in 2.04, which never made sense anyway. The easy way to defeat the spit is to stay faster and stay in the vertical...it's not a strong vertical dogfighter anymore and this is where the D9 is going to shine. Naturally avoid turning with the spit unless at very high speeds but even then I prefer to spend the energy climbing rather than burn it turning around. Think not only of relative E state when flying the 190, but also of total E state...if relative E states aren't going to change, then make moves that help your total E state instead of lowering it. You will stay the same with your enemy, but increase your E state and safetey margin compared to everyone else. Sustained climb rate is in the D9's favor, but again remember the step-climb, this is particularly effective against the spitfire. Be cautioned way up high though...the spit really did have a great high altitude climb and the D9 is still not the best high altitude performer. Since the spit has had it's E retention tuned, it doesn't appear to be the high altitude nightmare that it used to be, which appears much more realistic imho.



As far as the Anton being good for only hit and run, I'd say that is probably not true but that the Anton is not nearly as effective as the D9 for 1 on 1 energy fighting. It's used best in groups of 2 or 3 where no single 190 has to deal with an enemy all by itself. The D9 on the other hand can tackle probably any fighter one on one with very few exceptions...it has the performance to do it, but requires extensive knowledge of the fine points of the D9 to be successful in. The thing about the D9 is that the more you understand energy, the better you will do with it. This is why I like it...I can get really good results in the Dora if I use my head and fly intelligently and when flown in this manner it can do some surprising things. Other planes might be easier to fly, more successful and even more fun, but there is no other plane than can match the D9 in terms of sheer sense of accomplishment when flown well. Some people like a challenge and thats why we fly the 190's and planes like the P47. These planes are not uber but they reward mastery of them with good peformance and a high level of satisfaction as well as perplexed looks from the other guy who wonders 'how'd he do that?'.

All in all I'd say your assessment of the series is on target and coincides with my experience as well. And yes, the 190's are cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


<S> Hope this helps

sikira_SG
11-02-2004, 12:07 PM
Nice post Zen S!


http://www.burnspot.com/modules/xcgal/albums/userpics/10119/normal_sikira_sig.jpg

T_O_A_D
11-02-2004, 12:14 PM
Nice post Zen how I wonder do you keep all that in yuor head http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-02-2004, 12:14 PM
Hehe...ask and Ye shall receive.

Fish6891
11-02-2004, 02:03 PM
Thanks a lot Zen, this REALLY helps, appreciate it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Zen--
11-02-2004, 02:45 PM
I try http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hoping that Fehler, Hunde, Robban and the rest of the gang will hop in, by no means would I claim to have all the answers. One of the best things about being a 190 pilot is the strong community out there, small maybe compared to other kinds but we stick together and have good comraderie.



<S>

Hunde_3.JG51
11-02-2004, 03:35 PM
"One of the best things about being a 190 pilot is the strong community out there, small maybe compared to other kinds but we stick together and have good comraderie."

Good stuff Zen, and I agree.

I'll try to post something later and look things over, right now I am running on fumes....must sleep.....sorry......zzzzz.

Fehler
11-02-2004, 04:19 PM
If I may chime in...

The D-9 is da bomb! (Even though it cant carry any in FB+AEP+PF...


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zen hit all the high points. The most important thing about flying a FW is to make smooth movements. Dont jerk the stick around or you will bleed E faster than you can say "Shot down."

JG7_Rall
11-02-2004, 05:34 PM
zen da man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Weather_Man
11-02-2004, 06:36 PM
The best thing about the 190? I'm afraid of it. Afraid to fly it and afraid to fight it. It's a monster. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Nice post Zen. S~

Zen--
11-02-2004, 07:08 PM
Whats to be afraid of? The 190 is a great plane.

Here, practice this:

Cover 72.8% of your monitor screen.
Cross your eyes.
Rest your chin on your desk so you look up at the monitor.
Inhale lighter fluid.
When pressing the trigger for MG, exhale the lighter fluid while lighting a match.


Viola! You now have perfect FW pilot posture.


See? Nothing to be afraid of, once you master the unknown.



(For PF players, inhale half the amount of lighter fluid)


<S>

Hunde_3.JG51
11-02-2004, 09:30 PM
*&%%, I just spent over an hour putting something together and when I went to post I got some type of error I never had before, maybe it was too long. *&^%!

diomedes33
11-02-2004, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
Whats to be afraid of? The 190 is a great plane.

Here, practice this:

Cover 72.8% of your monitor screen.
Cross your eyes.
Rest your chin on your desk so you look up at the monitor.
Inhale lighter fluid.
When pressing the trigger for MG, exhale the lighter fluid while lighting a match.


Viola! You now have perfect FW pilot posture.


See? Nothing to be afraid of, once you master the unknown.



(For PF players, inhale half the amount of lighter fluid)


<S> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I just snorted OJ out my noise ... oh it burns.

I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that Zen--.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-02-2004, 10:08 PM
Here is some older stuff.

-Full-switch servers benefit the Focke Wulf, the 190 is a great plane to bounce others in because it has good speed, high speed handling, and firepower. The 190 also has great all-around visibility, use this to stalk your opponent.

-Gain altitude whenever you can. Engage with an advantage, disengage if you lose it or get jumped. Split-s works great as climbing will get you shot and other planes will out-turn you. Keep the fight at high speed where your plane handles as good as anyone's, if not better.

-Learn high speed gunnery, it is much different that TnB gunnery. Learn to anticipate more while your opponent is maneuvering rather than following. I recommend setting up a QMB with a couple A-5's against a bunch of Hurricanes. This will teach you about gunnery at high speed against a slower opponent.

-Use rudder corrections alot, it is part of high speed gunnery. If your opponent changes direction at the last moment you can kick your rudder at the last second and get a burst on him. This takes practice but with time it will be done unconciously and will make you a much better shooter. And after awhile you will not even notice "the bar," I swear.

-Find your opponent first and stalk him. Don't fly straight at him as soon as you see him. Try to determine where he is heading and sneak in on him. Try to imagine what he sees and where his blind spots are. When diving in on him get as low as possible to stay out of sight, but don't sacrifice your speed advantage.

-Use wingman and friendlies, I can't emphasize this enough. The 190 is not a lone wolf plane but is an excellent 4 vs. 4 plane. Often you can simply out-run pursuers and let your buddies pick them off of you. As long as energy is equal or to your advantage, speed and high speed handling will keep you alive. If you don't have advantage, work to at least even it out then disengage.

-Don't use "auto" prop-pitch, use between 80-100% manual. 100% in level flight and climb, 80% in dive (or just ease up on throttle).

-Know other planes strengths, where they are faster and where you are faster. For example, drag a Mustang to the deck or up to 5,000m or so, in between 1,000m and 4,000m (and above 6,500m) he will be stronger. Knowing where planes are stronger takes alot of time and testing, but it is very useful if you want to employ tactics properly, especially if you want to disengage.

-I like to trim the nose down a good bit from start, I fly the 190 at high speed more often than not and I don't need the nose pulling up on me, this can really effect your gunnery if not accounted for, especially flying at 600-700km/h.

-Fire at very close range, don't fire from far off and alert your opponent prematurely during your attack run. In some, more maneuverable planes you want to scare them and force them to maneuver, not in the 190. Be accurate.

-Use high yo-yo's when making high speed attacks at slower opponents. Make your attack, pull up sharply, flip over on your back, look straight up (down at your opponent), wait until he flies beneath you, then dive down on him again.

-When attacking an opponent do not follow unless they are making gentle turns. If you are lining him up and he banks hard, simply break off and climb away. He has now lost energy and you have increased your advantage. Try to force him to evade and bleed energy. Not great for Hollywood movies but very effective at gaining an advantage.

-Always keep in mind that almost every plane will out-turn you in sustained turns, and almost every plane will out-climb you in sustained climbs. Never think you can out-turn someone, unless flying at very high speeds but this is more for defensive than offensive value. Never rely on climb either, with the Dora it is more acceptable.

-If you do try to climb away, do so at higher speeds than in most planes. The 190A likes to climb at around 350 or so km/h, don't climb below that speed. Remember also that above 2,000m your climb will start to fall off even more, though speed will increase. The 190 seems to like it around 1,500m and below, and between 4,500m and 6,000m.

-Head-ons are acceptable in the FW-190A, maybe the only plane in the game where this is the case. You should come out the victor in a head-on attack because of your excellent firepower and engine durability. More importantly your opponent often will be less than willing to go head-on and will take evasive action, so you simply climb up and use his maneuver against him. When going head-on I usually aim slightly high because the bullets/rounds will drop and because I want to force him down or to the side. This is one case where it is good to fire from farther out, don't worry about wasting ammo you have plenty.

-Evasive maneuvers can be very effective at high speed. You should be going fast anyway, but if not dive, jink, and gain speed. Severe maneuvers when an opponent is behind you, even to the point of blackout as long as you are aware of angle the blackout is induced at, can be effective because if he wants to follow chances are he will blackout also. Try to ride the edge and not black-out, this takes experience. If blacked-out make subtle maneuvers because you will often still have minor control of your aircraft.

-FW-190 has more range than say, a 109. Don't take 100% fuel if you don't have too. On most online maps 50% is enough.

-I prefer to set convergence for cannons at 500m, the rounds/bullets leave your aircraft at a much flatter angle than say at 200m, keeping them more level in your gunsight and making deflection shooting easier. At 200m your rounds actually leave the aircraft at a slight downward angle, you don't need four cannons to hit in the same spot anyway. 500m also gives you a bigger hitbox, or more "spread."

-Look for the 109's. Focke Wulfs and 109's compliment each-other well. These two planes have different fighting styles and strengths and combining the two can only make both of you more effective.

-Don't fly around at 110% throttle when stalking for opponents. Again, no need for unecessary heat. 100% throttle with WEP and radiator closed allows for very high cruise speed in danger areas without overheat except in extended climbs. Otherwise back it down a little but not too much, you need to stay fast, always.

From another post I made awhile back:

The only thing I would add is that when I see tracers I immediately apply full negative elavator (fully press forward on the stick). The 190 has good elevator response and this is usually enough to throw off your attackers aim long enough for you to perform your half-roll and dive. I like to very gently turn/jink during my dives just in case he is following close. The dive followed by a reversal (another half-roll and pull-out) is effective. Your only concern with this maneuver is that you have sufficient altitude and that you don't perform your reversal so late as to build speed past your critical limit.

Another maneuver that can be effective when you don't have as much altitude and speed but have clouds nearby is a steep diving, fairly tight corkscrew. It is extremely difficult for anyone to hit you when performing this maneuver but you have to be careful with the stick. Again, this is effective when clouds are nearby, when you pull out of the corkscrew you may be vulnerable but the idea is to finish the maneuver in a cloud or very close to one.

Also, if you have a plane that you cannot shake that handles as well as yours at most speeds (P-51, P-47, etc), even after you performed other maneuvers, you can try a harsh, desperate maneuver that induces blackout. Just remember that even when blacked out you often still have minor control on your plane so don't just sit there, use gentle inputs on the stick to keep from being a static target. Also, be very aware of the angle that you induce blackout and where this will lead, you don't want to blackout when descending at anything but the slightest of angle. This is dangerous and you need alot of speed but if someone is stuck to you then it might be enough to save you or buy you time as they simply cannot follow without blacking out themselves. It sounds desperate, and it is, but it should not be ignored as this has saved me numerous times.

From another post I made awhile back:

As for diving in on opponent I prefer a fast, fairly sharp dive to a point slightly above and directly behind my opponent, from there I use a shallow dive to attack point. I dive sharply at the beginning so I can get down and out of sight. If you use a shallow dive and remain high above him you will likely be spotted.

As for convergence I am one of the few that uses 500m in all 190's and 109's except for the 109E (I use 200m). This keeps your bullets/rounds much more level in the gunsight, they don't drop as quickly. The 190 has enough cannons that you don't need for them to hit all in the same spot. In the 109 it only effects vertical trajectory. I find deflection shooting easier at 500m because as I said the bullets/rounds are fired at a more level trajectory. In planes like the 109E, P-40, P-51, etc I set convergence at 200m because the concentrated firepower is needed more. I usually start shotting at 250m or under.


Just wanted to clarify that diving sharply and then going into shallow dive is only used on unsuspecting opponents. Any time you are engaged with someone using slashing attacks you must "guess" where they will be, exactly as you said. Trying to get directly behind your opponent could cause you to take some very bad angles and lose precious energy. Also, another reason for using shallower dive at the end is that you will arrive at a slightly slower speed but at a better position, and this can help keep the 109's elevator from stiffening up as much if you need to make last minute corrections.

It is best to shoot then climb/extend away. Don't follow him into turns unless they are very gentle. P-47 pilots often adhered to the rule that any turn greater than 90 degrees was unacceptable, and this holds true for the 190 as well IMO. I find a straight zoom climb followed by a Hammerhead preferable to a gentle combat/climbing turn unless there are others about who you do not hold a significant energy advantage over. In this case a longer extension/climb followed by a combat turn is probably your best bet.

For the reasons I mentioned above it is easy to see why the 190 is an excellent plane to use when you have a wingman or wingmen, but it is not the best 1 vs. 1 plane unless you have a decent altitude/energy advantage. The utilizatation of the hammerhead can be useful in low combatant encounters as well. If all else fails the 190 has excellent escapability with its great high speed handling, roll-rate, and speed at sea-level. If jumped by an opponent with a severe advantage a split-s into a dive works well as he will bleed his energy turning around (or require a much larger area/radius to perform his split-s), and if he is stuck to your 6 o'clock a split-s, into a jinking high speed dive, followed by another split-s (or variations of it) can be helpful in eliminating his advantage and supplying you with the needed space to simply out-run your opponent. Never simply fly straight in these maneuvers, keep moving but do it gently so you do not bleed speed while performing them but rather you build it. Don't be predictable. If someone is behind you, the last thing you want to do is climb (presenting an easy target), and most planes will out-turn you, so your best bet is to dive/split-s and build speed quickly where you can use your high speed handling, roll-rate, and level speed to your advantage.

More:

In short the FW-190D is a better 1 vs. 1 fighter and allows for better "e" fighting due to its better speed, acceleration, and climb. Still, the FW-190A-9 is the best aircraft on full real servers IMO. It lets you hit, kill, and move on, increasing situational awareness. When I see a P-47 when I am in a Dora I cringe because I know it will take me awhile to finish him off and in the process making myself more vulnerable as I lose altitude and maneuver to kill him. The A-9 usually only needs one opening and spends less time focusing on his opponent. Also, the A-9 absorbs damage better then the Ta-152 and FW-190D, and it is a slightly smaller target. The A-9 is also more versatile, it is fast and is modelled with a bomb-rack. Therefore you can load up a 1,100.lb bomb, drop it, and have the same performance as if you never carried one. No other plane can be an effective ground attack plane with the speed to escape almost any plane, act as an extremely effective attack/bomber interceptor, and hold its own as a fighter in one package with a single loadout IMHO.

Against Spitfires, Yaks, Laggs, P-39's, etc., simply use hit and run tactics below 7,000m and you are almost invulnerable. They are simply too slow to catch, you have a good speed advantage below 7,000m (or more). Often they will become impatient and break off, then I am the hunter. I often stay at the fringe of a fight or at the edge of my spotted opponents visual radius while gaining the needed altitude advantage. Then I attack. Do not get slow or use sustained climbs when Spitfires are in the area.

Against La-7, you must stay high. Below 3,500m he is faster, turns better, climbs better, and retains energy better. You can lose an La-7 with a high speed dive and reversal if you ride to your plane's limit. Above 3,500m you have slight speed advantage and climb is more similar. At about 6,000+m speed evens out again. Do whatever it takes to get above your opponent and kill him, use teammates when La-7's are around.

Against P-51 you are faster up to about 1,000m and between 5,000 and 6,500m (using 100% prop-pitch). Do not stay at 2,000-4,000m with Mustang, his performance advantage is huge. Again proper setup is the key, find him first and get higher, don't engage otherwise. If in trouble get down low and leave him. Use escape methods mentioned above if in trouble, if you have the advantage it should just be a matter of avoiding the pieces http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Hope this helps, there was more but I lost it. Sorry if anyhting is broken or it doesn't flow well as I put pieces together quickly.

Oh, btw, maybe change the title to include FW-190 tactics so more can see.

Good luck and good hunting!

LStarosta
11-03-2004, 02:07 PM
Excellent guide, Hunde. Most excellent, indeed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Zen--
11-03-2004, 03:51 PM
Dang Hunde...thats a book!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

TX-Gunslinger
11-03-2004, 04:11 PM
Well, you've heard from the masters, now I'll see what I can add...

Before I get started, please go to the JV44 site and download the "FW-190A9" manual, written by Knighton "Many-Scalps" Warbeck. I believe this to be "the" definitive guide to the FW-190A9, and applies to other A series (but NOT D series aircraft).

FW-190A series basics.....

1. When in any type of threat is near, never allow your airspeed to drop below 320-350kmh (unless zoom climbing after an attack). Your acceleration is greatest at this speed and above. Even though optimal climb for these aircraft are much slower, you want to retain speed by using "stairstep" procedures mentioned by Zen. To apply this to the Anton, before climbing attain an airspeed of 400 - 440 kmh, pull up gently so as not to lose to much 'E', hold your climb until airspeed drops down to 350 and allow the plane to naturally nose down to level. Fly level until over 400 kmh and repeat. You should use 80% PP during the level portions and 90% during climb. (This is all at WEP and 110% throttle by the way).

2. Absolute mastery of engine temperature and propeller pitch are essential for maintaining altitude in B&Z. You must squeak every last bit of energy (altitude) out of your A/C on the way back up to altitude after your attack. Why? Because you may need to make multiple attacks on the same bogey, or if succesfull you may want to take down the next lowest enemy aircraft in the stack. The Dora comes back to altitude much easier than the Anton, and you can leave most things in auto. On the Anton you have to work or you will lose too much altitude in successive dives and end up down in "bottom feeder" land, which is not the place you want to be.

3. Cowl Flaps should be all the way open or all the way closed. This is just like altitude (as a general rule you should always be climbing when not engaged). After take-off and when in transit you should have your radiator fully open. Learn to judge the minimum temperature achievable. Low temp means higher E. Once you've achieved your desired patrol altitude, set prop-pitch to Combat Cruise (see table below) or Auto, drop your throttle to 70-80% or so, letting your engine cool as much as possible PRIOR to engagement. Learn how long you can abuse an overheated engine prior to it's seizure. You can actually seize an BMW radial. I don't like pushing them past 4 or 5 minutes at overheat. The longer you overheat, the longer it takes to cool the engine off.

4. Zoom climb with cowl-flaps closed at 90-100% PP (see table below), at top of climb open radiator fully, and set pp to chart or in the beginning just select Auto. The one time you may want to dive with rad open is when attempting to dive after a P-47. If diving after a co-altitude P-47 (not for the fainthearted) you must kill him very early on, while you have the dive advantage. After a P-47 gets to dive speed, let him go, regain altitude and wait for him to come back up. If he does'nt then you've won becuase you've removed him from his most effective altitude regime, at least for the moment.

5. This is the propeller pitch settings that I use.....in the beginning just go to auto PP when entering the dive, as it will take you some time to get used to applying these.

http://www.txsquadron.com/photo/TX-Gunslinger/FW190A9-pitch-climb.gif


6. Moves that must be mastered include:

a) Split-s - Don't be to quick to use this as most good allied pilots will be anticipating this move and it gives up too much altitude. When you are forced to split-s it's almost like quitting because you just gave up your altitude. Learn to judge e-states of closing enemy. If you have the E, then spiral climb. Many pilots will take snap shots against a climbing adversary to get them to "split S". Don't buy that lure, learn to judge when your'e gradually pulling away. When spiral climbing in an FW, your spiral should be more gradual than is typical in an ME-109. If your at low to medium altitude (below about 5-6K) Look at your wingtips, if you see vortices beginning to form, your losing E, too much E. Back off until the vortices stop. If you are at higher altitude, you are going to have vortices no matter what you do. Learn to observe vortices on your adversary also, they tell you much about what he's doing at the lower altitudes.

Learn the minimum altitude for Split-S, which is about 650 meters. Don't become a lawn dart. The double split-s is great against P-51's and on mixed servers when flying Antons against Dora's. Planes that don't roll as well as you do, cannot follow.

b) Scissors - When you see an La-7, or P-51 with E advantage on your close six, you should almost always play to the scissors. There is just about nothing else reasonable to do. This may (but does'nt have too) eventually end up in a stall fight, which is not the forte of the FW BUT if you play the "I'm slowing down to make him overshoot" card THEN PLAY IT TO THE HILT! As you start to become unstable at the slower speeds, drop combat flaps then, take-off, then landing and finally GEAR DOWN! He will overshoot, you will get your shot. Now, I've been a little extreme in this example, and you'll die if he has a wingman around but, I've killed Yaks and LA's this way when we were alone. I just want to illustrate that, the FW-190 does'nt have to be confined to the "rules" all the time. The real secret to success is the "Where, when and context" of executing particular BFM. Think of your next move, and the next move after that.

c) While I'm in the Stall areana, I might as well mention the "Von Roll". If you pull back hard enough on the stick you'll stall, in level flight. The left wing will drop and you'll roll. You'll also lose about 100 kmh when you right yourself. If you do this right, against a high E adversary, he'll overshoot. Cool right? Well maybe, you're alive but you just lost a ton of E. How do you get it back? Well you could dive, but if a guy hits you with that much E he must have come from above so He still has his. As far as I know the only time to do this is when your'e a)on the deck and have no other option or b) nearing friendly assets like ships, flak, wingmen...etc and need that last 20 seconds or so to draw the bogey to bigger problems than you represent.

d) Vector Roll - Can't recommend this enough, particularly when trying to clear a wingman who is in an awkward position with respect to you and the bandit. When closing a bandit that has superior turning (most A/C at speeds below 450 kmh) go into the turn a few degrees, pull your nose up, roll in the direction opposite the bandits turn and pull (rolling split-s) with a little rudder. As the bandit continues his tight E-bleeding turn you will come out (if you've done this right) of your roll pointed down, gaining back your E and you will see him above you at about your 1 o'clock position still turning. This manuver takes a lot of practice to get it in one fluid quick motion, but it is great for killing T&B'ers. The newer folks will wonder how you "turned" with them. Another key in execution is to rapidly, re-aquire the bogey visually after the roll is near complete.

e) Negative Knife - Could'nt live without it. Zen and Hunde have slightly different, but effective versions.

By the way, I take 75% to 100% fuel. I like flying for an hour and a half, time to think, time to stalk, time to choose just the right moment to share the Focke-Wulf love. Learn to survive first, killing comes easy after that. That's four cold hard 151/20mm cannons converged at 500-700 meters, with Minengechloss for those guys with the rear-view mirrors!

And while I'm thinking about it, I would urge you as strongly as possible to forgo the MK-108 entirely. Learn to shoot the 151/20 mm. They are great cannons, particularly when you have FOUR of them, and they don't drag the aircraft's performance down. I can feel the drag of the 108 as soon as I take off. The MK-108's are a novelty; a great FW-190 driver kills bombers in the tradition of Egon Mayer, NOT FROM ASTERN, but by killing the pilots, saving ammo for the next bomber, and more importantly saving the FW. But then that's another post!

That's enough for now....If you find this helpful I'll post another on the Focke-Wulf art of gunnery, for after all....we go thorough all this flying stuff to be able to shoot, and the beloved FW is the most awesome shooter of them all! And thanks to Hunde, JV44, Zen and all my brother FW-190 fliers, WE CAN SEE NOW, AND THE TA ROCKS! Just like the real Butcher Bird drivers in WWII.

By the way, I see mister TOAD lurking up there! He is certainly one fine FW-190 flier and Yak embarasser! Good to see you friend TOAD.

THINK ROLL (NOT TURN)

Horrido!

Black 2

diomedes33
11-03-2004, 10:32 PM
Excellent posts Zen, Hunde, and Gunslinger. I think Zen was on to something, we should compile this into a book or faq. This question seems to come up every month or so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by Hunde
-Look for the 109's. Focke Wulfs and 109's compliment each-other well. These two planes have different fighting styles and strengths and combining the two can only make both of you more effective.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'd like to chime in here, this can be a very formidable strategy if you can pull it off. I and another squad mate regularly tag team P-51's and Spitfires. I fly a9/d9 and he flies the bf-109g6/as.

Usually I can dive in and cripple the plane and he'll finish him off. I can zoom back up to altitude and protect the 109 while he has an easy kill due to the 109's maneuverability.

Or

I'll fly high above and vector him in to the target. The bogey will be so concerned about me that he'll never see the 109 sneak up on his six.

Gunslinger I would be very intersted in seeing your next post on gunnery, its my weekest area. I sometimes have to make 5 or 6 passes because I can't hit the buggars.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-03-2004, 11:14 PM
Good stuff Gunslinger, thanks.

When looking over my stuff I realized how much of it was defensive or about survivng, so I couldn't agree more about learning to survive before learning to kill.

Hey Specter, our eye in the sky, I always like it when you vector me to target http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif. You're one of the most unselfish flyers I know and I'm glad you are on our side. When I say to always utilize wingmen, people like Specter are the ones who make it work.

This Killians's for you!

http://www.killians.com/images/logoBottle.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-04-2004, 04:00 AM
Nice and informative I must confess of all the axis planes available that 190 is the only one that appeals to me from the luftwaffe camp. I may well put some of this stuff into practice this weekend.

cheers gents!

Fox_4
11-04-2004, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
*&%%, I just spent over an hour putting something together and when I went to post I got some type of error I never had before, maybe it was too long. *&^%! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This kind of thing used to bother me a lot, but then I thought of a way around it. If you highlight all the text before posting and press ctrl+c you copy it into memory, so that if the post goes belly-up you can just re-post and press ctrl+v to paste it all back in. It's certainly come in useful a few times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

LStarosta
11-04-2004, 01:15 PM
I agree with having a little chit chat about gunnery. I myself am lacking in that area, especially with the larger caliber guns.

faustnik
11-04-2004, 01:53 PM
Wow, a lot of great posts here that I'm saving!

One thing that has been touched on by many is the 190As ability as a team fighter. The Wulf hunts best in a pack. While always sticking to B&Z tactics if possible, a four ship of 190As can hang with any other type of plane in a low altitude DF. The big advantages are roll rate and elevator authority. The 190 can't sustain a turn but, turns very quickly through 45 degees. This gives the 190 the ability to change directions very quickly to engage a target. A pack of 190s performing scissors type maneuvers is very difficult for an enemy group to deal with. Both sides will only be presented with short deflection shots but, the 190 with it's firepower and toughness has a big advantage.

To get the most out of this type of fighting, you have to gain confidence in shooting at targets that you can't see. Most of the time, the target will be under your nose as you fire. This just takes practice but, eventually you will make these shots without thinking. Practice pulling the nose of the 190 through the target as you are firing. Don't be shy about wasting ammo, you've got a lot of rounds.

As for the 190A's:

Fw190A4: The easiest handling of all the 190s. Climb at 80% to 100% prop pitch. You can own Spit Vbs if you keep your speed up.

Fw190A5: Gets a big boost in speed with NE boost. Looses a little maneuverability but, is more stable. Climb at 78% to 88% prop pitch.

Fw190A6: Same as the A5 but added firepower. The SpitIX vs. Fw190A6 match is a great one!

Fw190A8: This model gets better MGs and more armor, but, pays a heavy price in maneuverability. Climb at 78% prop pitch. Stick to B%Z only in the A8. Use long full throttle extensions to escape.

Fw190A9: The A9 is heavy like the A8 but, climbs a little better and has a little more speed. You can mix a little more E-fighting in with your B&Z if you like risk taking.

TX-Gunslinger
11-05-2004, 01:04 AM
Just a note to let you know that I'm working furiously on the gunnery post. Needed to finish reviewing some old tracks with FB 3.0 for some good graphic examples. Thought I'd make up a few more graphics and compile links to things like the Schiessfibel and SnipersCorner Version 2.0

While reviewing recent engagments, I just have to say one more time, that it is incredible to look out the gunsight and see where the projectiles are landing, without having to use outside views and such.

Now is a good time for me to post some things I've been collecting and testing for the last year or so.

This is kind of like a break in hunting season. We are waiting for the dedicated server and the patch, so this provides me a good time to post, reflect and tune up my software. I've learned so much from all of your new and old posts, makes me feel good to contribute for a change, rather than just take.

This is absolutely my favorite part of the community. Thank you for your teaching over the years. If I get this gunnery post finished, I'm planning on following it up with a post on the FW mystery weapon, in anticipation of Bomber hunting season......

I spent about 3 months or so testing and tweaking the WGfr-21 and developed charts and techniques for it's employment. Anyway....more later..thanks again for the kind words..

S!
Horrido!

Black 2

equipoise
11-05-2004, 04:16 AM
Much appreciated! all of you, Zen Hunde and Gunslinger!

Fish6891
11-05-2004, 04:51 AM
Wow, Hunde thats a helluva lot'O info! Thanks for bothering to put it back together after losing it once!

Gunslinger, I did find ur post helpful and if u wish to post on gunnery go ahead, I'd love to read it.

Nice to see the FW crowd seems to be a helpful community, the Focke-Wulfs and Tank are by far my favorite birds.

Right now I'm working to find a sweet spot for gun convergence and mainly practicing the Dora, I dont blame Zen for loving it so much, that birdie is screamin! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

(o btw, good idea Hunde, I'll change the title)

MOhz
11-05-2004, 05:06 AM
hi guys, i am a 190 freak!! i love it i love it i do!! one thing i would like to add to TX-Gunslinger's point B is that he is totally right!! this is true for the 109 and 190. one has to keep on thinking of the next move and then the next and executing them because the moment one doesnt know what one can do next, one is dead meat. especially if someone is directly on your six, never seize thinking!

now i have 4 questions:
1. why does one accelerate with 90% PP (80% in Gunslinger's case)? is it to keep the engine cool? i heard that with spit14 one has to with 100% or else it leaves you eating its dust...but that does really matter right now since we dont have it yet

2. i never did understand what high speed turns are? i mean i guess it means to turn while retaining high speed, but to keep up the speed in an Anton, the circle has to be really wide, right? and if the circle is wide, then the guy on your six can turn inside it (shorter path) right? so does one make the circle sooooo wide that the guy on your six cant cut a shorter path? i really dont understand, help!

3. now to convergence: i have heard ( i think in the Ready Room) that with the 151/20 it is better to hit a plane with spread instead of concentrated because the weapon is too weak. this ture?? better concentrated (that is at the convergence point) or spread (the rounds hit the plane at different point

4. last, while booming, i can either control the PP manually and LEAVE the throttle at 100% or 110% or i can have AUTO PP and control the throttle ??

thanks!! for your help of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MOhz
11-05-2004, 05:11 AM
what i also really like to see is a list of weak points of aircrafts, because for example a lot of aircrafts can be killed hitting the engine but then again there are exceptions.

i noticed for example that i couldnt hit the IL2 cooler thingy, so i let the guy notice me and he starts doing a sharp turn left or right, because he knows i cant turn with him (almost no plane can lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif) and i unleash my 6 weapons on his lower wing (usually) and then i just watch as his planes gets ever so close to the ground and......censored!

Fish6891
11-05-2004, 05:42 AM
I'll answer #2 and leave the rest to the other peeps. A high speed turn is just a turn at high speed (450km/h+). Now yes its true that when moving faster turning radius makes it wider, but if the guy ur trying to outurn is traveling at a similar speed to you his turn will also be quite wide, however, most aircraft controls tend to get "stiffer" as they get faster while the FWs turn nicer and nicer as they get faster, so if ur both at similar speeds u'll definitly outturn him.

Now, u outlined a situtation in which ur being chased by someone moving much slower than u, well ya he can turn tighter but whats the big deal? Ur moving so fast, he'll never catch u, u dont even need to turn, better to extend and then concoct some other move to get yourself into better position.

I've started using this advantage to escape my foes when necessary. Say ur u just shot down a spitty and naturally his buddies appear and suddenly theres a mustang, la7 and spitty attacking u. You're obviously at a disadvantage, if the situation seems hopeless, just DIVE, you get faster and faster and faster and then when u reach critical speed, or right b4 u hit the ground roll 180 and PULL on the stick (try to pull out of the dive b4 880km/h, I usually try to pull out around 850km/h, ur safe there, 880 is the absolute limit, u can make it at 880 but any faster than that and pulling on the stuck may break off ur wing, and also ur aircraft starts to break up on its own around 920km/h) After u break, level off and ZOOM away.

If an aircraft follows u into this dive they risk breaking apart due to extreme speed, ur focke wulf can take much more than most, if not all aircraft. If they manage not to break up, well they'll probly end up losing u anyways because on an FW you roll WAY faster than them and at this speed u turn WAY better than them so when you the that 180 roll and follow it with a break, theres NO WAY they can keep up with you and when and if they pull out of the dive u'll be long gone. More experienced players wont follow u into this manuever but even if they dont u still get away as there is no way they'll be able to follow u once u level off at +800km/h, you'll leavem in the dust.

Ain't it nice to be the one who chooses whether or not there will be a fight? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MOhz
11-05-2004, 05:54 AM
coming to question number http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
5. diving: i used to dive steeply (i think beyond 45?, not so good in maths anymore... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ) and i would loose massive altitude, and would get away, but that was then like the end because in Antons, as menchend, climbing takes a while. so shallow dives are better are they?? something like (only guessing) 30?? feedback please.

PS thanks FISH!

MOhz
11-05-2004, 05:56 AM
oh and fish, i think it is better to choose before but yes, one doesnt always have the choice beforehand...

that is really a plus in the 190, one can disengage at (almost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif) anypoint.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-05-2004, 06:58 AM
Hi,

All excellent stuff - not much that can be added to this comprehensive info.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"When looking over my stuff I realized how much of it was defensive or about survivng, so I couldn't agree more about learning to survive before learning to kill."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more and this is why the 190 is my first choice. You have the ability to engage/disengage at will (providing you use your loaf) and this, perhaps, is one of the greatest fortes of the 190.

Cheers,
Norris

diomedes33
11-05-2004, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MOhz:
what i also really like to see is a list of weak points of aircrafts, because for example a lot of aircrafts can be killed hitting the engine but then again there are exceptions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll throw in a couple I picked up over the years.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>P-51 - Rake the belly or the engine very good chance of stopping the prop
<LI>P-47 - rear from about 5 or 7 oclock, aim for just below the canopy. You can usually Kill the pilot. If you're using the MK108s you can hit the wing root and the splash damage has a good chance too.
<LI>Spitfire - Ailerons, blow them off the plane it becomes useless.
[/list]

For any plane the cockpit and engine will take them down pretty quick. Never attack from dead 6, always from some angle (above, below or side).

I usually aim for the wingroots, you have a pretty good chance of killing the pilot, engine or taking a wing off. This is how I found out the P-47's achilles heal.

VW-IceFire
11-05-2004, 07:25 AM
FW190 tactics....let me tell you that I love this plane. My favorites are still the Spitfire and the Tempest is where it will be at for me when that arrives...but the FW190 is a great plane to learn.

Here's a few tips:

1) The roll rate of the FW190 gives it an impressive offensive and defensive ability. Don't use it for barrel rolls...use it to reverse direction quickly and put your guns on the enemy or to engage in a high speed manuver and quickly snap to the other side and away from the pursuer.

2) Firepower is good to excellent. You need to learn how to shoot with this bird but once you do and you start landing hits from oblique angles its all over for the enemy. Shooting is made easier in PF due to the fact that the target is no longer obscured during firing.

3) Stay fast. The FW190 hates being at 300 kph and trying to turn...if you are there you shouldn't be. Stay straight, stay fast, and try and be higher than your opponent. Do not get into turn fights...the longest you should hold a turn is 90 degrees or so. Generally do this with energy advantage...you'll expend energy and possibly position yourself for a killer shot. If not...break out, get speed, climb and try for it again.

Thats all I have to say. Generally these things work for Antons and Doras. They all have their quirks...just learn them and work at it.

WalterNowi
11-05-2004, 04:25 PM
Excellent collection of advices !

I flew the A5 exclusively in iL-2 but had moved on to different versions of 109 in FB. After reading the above posts, I tried the Dora and the A-9 using the expertern tactics. WOW ! They worked. Thanks Zen, Hunde and Gunslinger for opening my eyes to the possibilities.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WalterNowi
11-05-2004, 04:51 PM
One more question for the experten.

Between the Dora 44 and the Dora 45, which one do you prefer and why ?

Thanks in advance.

S!

Nowi

Hunde_3.JG51
11-05-2004, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the kind words Walter. I would ask Zen but I believe he (and I) prefer the '44 Dora. The MW-50 on the '45 Dora is more sensitive and I believe the '44 Dora actually outperforms the '45 version at altitudes above 5,000m by a decent bit, with the '45 version being slightly faster at SL. In between about 1,000m and 5,000m I believe they go back and forth.

TX-Gunslinger
11-06-2004, 04:01 AM
Gunnery €" Luftwaffe style

Note: This will be a series of posts in tutorial fashion. I sincerely hope all the links work. Please let me know there are any problems.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Well - why did you not manage to down your opponent in your last attack? Do not blow it off (or blame Oleg) - this would be too easy! You think, this could not be assessed afterwards? Wrong, at least with a little reflection on the matter.

It is well known - from gun camera footage and combat reports - that a number of errors, with regard to aiming and shooting are made on a regular basis. It is likely, you have the same issues:

1. You shoot from too far away.
2. Your lead is wrong.
3. You shoot from unfavorable positions
4. Your coordination of the aircraft controls is not smooth enough
5. You are not using the weapons control systems properly
6. You rely on tracers for aiming
7. Your aircraft and guns need proper adjustments.
8. You are using inefficient ammunition load outs.

Of course - there are probably some more reasons for your lack of success - but these eight well known issues will be discussed here in practical terms.</span>

These words were published in June 1944 (except for obviously the Oleg part), and written/edited by arguably the greatest German Ace and fighter leader of the all, Adolf Galland. They are published in his book to Luftwaffe fighter pilots €œHorrido €" Des Jagers Schiessfibel€ or in Gunslinger Texan €œThe Hunters Shooting Bible€.

These 8 principals were so well thought out, that as I was going through countless tracks and writing this post, I realized that they applied to every single error that I make, or have made in the past. It€s an amazing comment on this sim (yes I believe it to be a sim more than a game because it really takes months, perhaps years to master) that these 8 principles, from 1944 apply just as much today as they did over 60 years ago!

If you don€t have a copy of this manual in it€s original form (German), here is the link:

http://www.rafiger.de/Homepage/Pages/Schiessfibel.html

I have updated a partial translation that I received, and placed a copy here:

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Horrido.doc

Get these while you can, I know many of you already have them. I cannot emphasize strongly enough that you read these and absorb the details and concepts. Notes with respect to IL2-FB-AEP-PF:

a. Remember the date of this pub. This was written during the period that the allies were most of the way toward establishing Air Supremacy over Western Europe. The issue of the day was U.S. Bombers and the guide was certainly produced for Luftwaffe replacement pilots, who by that time had a life expectancy of about 2-5 sorties. Luftwaffe replacement pilots could not be expected to master, complex flight maneuvers nor approaches, like head-ons. Those advanced concepts, were expected to be addressed by the remaining veterans, on the job. This manual was a compromise, intended to get the most of very short, young lives. This was produced during the time that Galland was re-building his reserves for what he thought would be an all out effort against the 8th Air Force (Little did he know, his summer-fall 1944 efforts would be frittered away on Operation Bodenplatte) I believe that there was no book like this in the Luftwaffe previously, as many pilot accounts prior to 1944 state that deflection shooting was frowned upon by the Luftwaffe formal training establishment. Pilots like Hans Joachim Marseille, Gunther Rall, Eric Rurdorffer and Emil Lang (my votes for best deflection shots of all time, were all self taught, my belief anyway).

b.You can skip the sections on bomber turbulence (wake), as these cannot be modeled with the computational resources of today, so therefore don€t exist in the IL2 series.

If there are any fluent in technical German out there, please feel free to finish or correct the translation that I€ve modified.

Another great source concerning gun-sights, deflection shooting, AO (Angle Off), and Range estimation with included exercises is:

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20up%20RAF%20Gunnery%20School.zip

This is a wartime RAF manual and doesn€t address the Revi, but these sights work in exactly the same way, with different calibration (circles representing 10 and 20 mils versus X,Y mils graduated in 5 mil steps). The most important thing about these is the drill to help you estimate AO and visualize AO.

Angle Off is one of the most important concepts in shooting. A good way to think of AO is to imagine a line (vector) from the targets tail to his propeller hub. Many early mistakes are made by not correctly identifying this vector properly. If the contact is pulling up, and you don€t account for this, you are simply placing projectiles where he WAS not where he WILL BE when the projectiles actually reach him.

Snipers Corner€¦

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/SC_2_Eng.zip

If you are having problems with shooting and do not, or have not utilized this outstanding tool, then no wonder! After you absorb the previous documents, please download this Excel file and read the instructions. This utility allows you to select your gun type, own A/C parameters and Target parameters to visualize the exact gun-sight picture. This is where you can see how much extra lead you need for those Mk-108 rounds for example.

Use this to create your sight picture for the types of encounters you expect. How can you know this in advance? One of the great things about B&Z is that you€ll typically encounter the same types of AO over and over again. Drive your FW for these situations! More, on positioning your 6 guns later.

In summary, in order to place rounds on target, we must first realize statically, what the correct lead is. I emphasize here that these tools provide a STATIC picture, of moment in time. If you are maneuvering wildly, with a heavy hand on the stick, your shots are spreading out like crazy! The rate of fire of your cannons and mg is not fast enough to cover the rate of angular change that you may be inducing at time of fire.

Ever shoot while pulling up too rapidly, then look at the track and see that your shots while crossing the target, actually straddled him? Go to Galland€s critique #4. You€re coordination of the aircraft controls was not smooth enough. The slower your rate of angular change, the more you allow the projectiles to fill the space between the lines.

Here is an example of what you can do with Snipers Corner. This is the hardest shot to make, I think, the 90 degree deflection. Why? Because the target is moving incredibly fast across you€re windscreen. You have to anticipate this well in advance. First example is at 150 meters range, very hard break right (Allied propeller direction thing) at an extreme AO. We are Zoomed in to the gunsight (NOTE: This is a drill, don€t ever try to make this shot zoomed in, as you will miss!)


http://www.txsquadron.com/photo/TX-Gunslinger/ReviLeadComp-150m-90AOT-SConly.gif

If you shoot at this point, you€ll impact the target across the wing roots and in reality, if you€re stable at this point, you€ll probably hit engine and cockpit with all six guns.

Ok, so what? Well since the target is out of the Revi, how do you match this up reliably? The easy solution is to start firing early, BEFORE he gets to this point and let him €œrun into the projectiles€ What if we take a look now at the cockpit superimposed on the picture.

http://www.txsquadron.com/photo/TX-Gunslinger/ReviLeadComp-150m-90AOT-ref.jpg

Notice that I€ve circled the 13mm bulges (No, if you fly A6 and earlier you don€t have these) and the ammo counters. Nice reference points aren€t they? So are the cockpit framing areas when zoomed out.

Now, here is a slightly more practical application. Note that I€ve increase the range to the target out to 300m. You normally wouldn€t shoot here. You should if you ever get the chance. Why? Cockpit. Pilot Kill. Black Gold. Texas Tea. In this case 300 meters is a practical shot, much more practical than 150 meters due to time considerations. Note that the enemy A/C speed has been 450 kmh€¦.this occurs very rapidly.

http://www.txsquadron.com/photo/TX-Gunslinger/ReviLeadComp-300m-90AOT-ref.jpg

This is enough for now. Just wanted to make sure everyone who's following this has the same tools. Later, we'll discuss tactical gunnery, weapon loadouts, what convergence you might want to use and much more....

After reviewing some recent tracks, I found some excellent examples (at my own expense, sometimes) of creative gun solutions.

I hope I have'nt bored the experten, I just wanted to make sure that we are all on the same wavelength before we get deeper, and mostly provide help to the newer folks.

Diomedes and Faustnik's comments on aimpoint and gunnery, as always were outstanding! Use Roll and Rudder in final aiming........

S! and Horrido!

Black 2
"Think Roll not Turn"

TX-Gunslinger
11-06-2004, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MOhz:
hi guys, i am a 190 freak!! i love it i love it i do!! one thing i would like to add to TX-Gunslinger's point B is that he is totally right!! this is true for the 109 and 190. one has to keep on thinking of the next move and then the next and executing them because the moment one doesnt know what one can do next, one is dead meat. especially if someone is directly on your six, never seize thinking!

now i have 4 questions:
1. why does one accelerate with 90% PP (80% in Gunslinger's case)? is it to keep the engine cool? i heard that with spit14 one has to with 100% or else it leaves you eating its dust...but that does really matter right now since we dont have it yet

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">In level acceleration, you don't gain much past 80% when you are faster than about 320 kmh, but you sure do heat up that engine faster. I don't know about the SpitXIV but I heard Rall talking once about using 100% to pull him around a little faster (extra torque) against a Spit he was fighting. I remembered that and have switched from 80% or Auto to 100% and it did increase my intital turn rate (short while). </span>


2. i never did understand what high speed turns are? i mean i guess it means to turn while retaining high speed, but to keep up the speed in an Anton, the circle has to be really wide, right? and if the circle is wide, then the guy on your six can turn inside it (shorter path) right? so does one make the circle sooooo wide that the guy on your six cant cut a shorter path? i really dont understand, help!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Well, it's a relative term, with respect to a particular aircraft in context with it's adversaries. My definition in this context is turns above 450-500kmh. Here is a set of IL2 Compare graphs to illustrate my point. Someone set me straight if you have a better definition.

In any event, the all FW's, and particularly the late model A8/9 and the Dora's have what is loosely termed a "high speed wing". What "high-speed wing" means in this context is that the FW's turning radius does'nt degrade as rapidly as other aircraft, when speed increases.


Check this out....(This is from Il2 Compare Ver 2.4 - 3.0 is not out yet, but will be soon. Profiles may be slightly different in FB 3.0)

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/TurnTimesYakFW.gif

As you can see this is a comparison of turning performance for different Butcher Birds against a particular nemisis, in this case the Yak-3P (the competitive choice of many on the "Dark Side").

Notice in the first graph, that at about 480kmh and higher, the FW-190 A9 out-turns the Yak. As the speed increases, this advantage is more marked.

In the second A9 comparison, we've turned on combat flaps. We like that! Let the dumb Yak put on the combat flaps with us and we're now outurning him down to 350 kmh!

Ok, now it's time for a little sanity check...if you try to continue on with this Yak down below 400kmh, with your combat flaps on, you will die sooner or later. Why? because you've violated the first rule of the FW ...SPEED IS LIFE! If you' let your speed go below 350-400kmh, you're not fast anymore and you won't regain it quickly, particulary in an A series. This is why we protest so much about A9 acceleration, but that's another post.

What this graph really says is that when you're on your way down at 750 kmh in a dive to "Smack the Yak", you can out-turn him for a little while, certainly no more than about 90 degrees, while you try to finish him off, and still keep some E. My advice to you though, is to play this card with caution, because what the graph does'nt show you is that you're high wing-loaded FW will bleed speed like crazy, while the Yak won't. When you do this kind of thing, you better finish him, and keep a sharp lookout for his wingman.

Ok, now look at the A6 performance vs Mr Yak with no flaps....what this tells you is that you better not try to waste any E turning with mr Yak. Won't buy you a darn thing. This is one reason that I, unlike many don't favor the A6 over the A9. Significantly different wing. The A4, which has quite a reputation as a turner is even worse at high speed.

Lastly, you'll now see one of the reasons why many FW Experten love the Dora so very much. She is your turner, if ever there was an FW turner. Also the Dora has the acceleration to rapidly regain lost from a turn.</span>

3. now to convergence: i have heard ( i think in the Ready Room) that with the 151/20 it is better to hit a plane with spread instead of concentrated because the weapon is too weak. this ture?? better concentrated (that is at the convergence point) or spread (the rounds hit the plane at different point

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Hmmmm.... I would say it's more like you want a longer convergence so as to ensure a higher hit probablity with some of your projectiles. If it were that weak, then fewer rounds would do less damage. I like a longer convergence with A-series (I usually choke up to 250 or so with Dora, but they maybe my insecurities) on the order of 400 to 500, and sometimes even 700. Why, becuase it makes head-on's work much, much better. In a head-on with guns set at 500 meters, the you should fire when the other guy is about 800-900 or so, at a 1 sec burst. That should put him at about convergence and give you just a little time to evade, and when shooting closer not be too far out there...</span>

4. last, while booming, i can either control the PP manually and LEAVE the throttle at 100% or 110% or i can have AUTO PP and control the throttle ??

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">On an Anton, I'd leave it in auto until I got real, real comfortable with the Boom + Zoom cycle. Changine Radiator, prop-pitch and trying to shoot is daunting. Auto is good enough to live.....

On a Dora, you have to be really, really carefull. In fact that applies to almost every in-line engine. Your better staying in Auto on the Dora almost all the time, unless you are in extremis...then you need to be very very carefull...I've never tested it but I suspect if you were to fudge down the PP numbers that I posted for the A9 by 10-15% that would be the curve...but I've never had time to test that.</span>

thanks!! for your help of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope I've clarified some of these things...this is my rendition anyway..and how I handle things..that does'nt necessarily mean it's perfect, but it's what I find to work for me..

S!

Black 2

Yum_Yum
11-06-2004, 07:48 AM
Hello http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I use 80% power at all times to keep my engine in a better state of readyness than my opponents, and only use the emergency power in emergencies!.
Hopefully an opponent I may choose is already in or has just left a dogfight so I know thier engine will need to cool, also the majority of players use WEP on attacking or being attacked, this means my engine should be in a better state.

I have my gun convergence set to 1000m for all weapons and prefer to shoot at longer distances since I have plenty of time to react to the manouvers an opponent makes.

I try to anticipate or force opponents to do what I want them too which enables me to place them in a good shooting place ...
If an opponent is heading strait towards me a head to head, I anticipate that if I fire a long burst slightly above them and then immediatly climb ..the enemy player will follow me up and thereby run into the shots I fired moments earlier.
If I am directly behind an opponent I use the Mg's to force the player to turn/change direction, as they turn I use my cannons to greater effect.
I find that any hits provoke a reaction so I use my MG's when shooting from directly behind, but only to force the enemy plane into a better shooting position.

There will always be good advice to read or tracks to watch, but I don't believe any are more important than practice and experience.
I practice shooting Offline using more and more enemy Aces until I am shot down.
Online I use a variety of servers and settings, but always choose my Focke Wulf.
I prefer A/F's dogfighting high or low, fast or slow, advantage or dissadvantage, fighter or ground attack it's the only one for me.

I have read some interesting points in this thread and thank those who have taken the time to ask and contribute.

See you on a server sometime http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif







Any hits will reduce performance so if I am further away I can shoot and take a little of thier performance at a time


it is possible for me to shoot at an enemy 1000m in front of me

MOhz
11-06-2004, 03:44 PM
Gunslinger, that is the most detailed and by far the best response i have ever gotten to the 190! Wow, I am still re- and rereading it! But now I understand the mistake I always made with the high speed turning. Stupidly I thought I could keep turning and I would completely loose the opponent, but of course the 190 lost E so I was left in a tight spot...

In my eyes the term "high-speed turn" shouldn't be used because it gives a faulse impression, high-speed response would be more correct.

Thanks everyone who took time to answer!

BBB_Hyperion
11-06-2004, 05:21 PM
Hmm lets put a FW Tactics PDF together ?

EURO_Snoopy
11-06-2004, 06:48 PM
There is some excellent material here, one of the best threads I have seen regarding tactics and flying. I will be making a few pages on airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com) basd on some of the threads here. If you want to expand on any point or contribute a complete article on this subject or tactics in general please contact me at eurosnoopy@airwarfare.com

diomedes33
11-06-2004, 10:01 PM
Gunslinger that was very helpful. I started watching the ball more and my accuracy went up quite a bit. I never realized how much 1 or 2 degrees slip makes in gunnery.

JtD
11-07-2004, 01:57 AM
Wow, really good information.

I'd just like to add, that in servers which have external views on, it's best to cycle through the other planes and look for an ongoing dogfight. There you have the best chances to make suprprise attacks. Best is to go for an enemy who is on your teammates six, they pay less attention to their rear sector. You get an easy kill and save a teammate. Very satisfying.

Also, I fly the FW a lot and don't bother about using manual prop pitch. I still am very successfull.
If you split-S don't totally flip around to your backside. Just do a 160? (or 200?) roll and pull then. This makes it a lot harder for anyone to shoot you in this maneuver, because the have to realign and usually have to get inverted for this. In the vertical part of the dive roll 40? and exit the Split-S slightly to the other side. This usually gives some slightly better results in the aircraft positioning after the maneuver, enhancing your chances that greedy pilots will both, a) try to follow and b) touch the ground.
I have some 204 ntrk's of me fighting on a medium server with some good results, if anyone want's to know how I work, I can upload them.

starfighter1
11-07-2004, 02:32 AM
hi,
to use all this tactics in the running PC-combatsim we need a redesign of the 'wrong'forward view in game and several design changes at this 'bar' + struts by FW-190/Ta-..
even by using the so called 'shoot by hold out..

and the typical ground attacks with 'cluster bombs' and low level attacks..against tanks

I had the chance to talk with a well known ex FW-pilot/instructor(Dr. Ploch/42/45 3years on FW) and he is well on health and has a good remind to this.
Hope to get a longer interview soon....

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
11-07-2004, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
Whats to be afraid of? The 190 is a great plane.

Here, practice this:

Cover 72.8% of your monitor screen.
Cross your eyes.
Rest your chin on your desk so you look up at the monitor.
Inhale lighter fluid.
When pressing the trigger for MG, exhale the lighter fluid while lighting a match.


Viola! You now have perfect FW pilot posture.


See? Nothing to be afraid of, once you master the unknown.



(For PF players, inhale half the amount of lighter fluid)


<S> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
and don't forget to ask master Yoda, to practice "da force" with you...

MOhz
11-07-2004, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JtD:
If you split-S don't totally flip around to your backside. Just do a 160? (or 200?) roll and pull then. This makes it a lot harder for anyone to shoot you in this maneuver, because the have to realign and usually have to get inverted for this. In the vertical part of the dive roll 40? and exit the Split-S slightly to the other side. This usually gives some slightly better results in the aircraft positioning after the maneuver, enhancing your chances that greedy pilots will both, a) try to follow and b) touch the ground.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to think SplitS was the Scissors move... I prefer doing SpltS right at ground level because a lot of the times people try to follow and pull too hard on their stick and no matter how forgiving their plane was if they stalled or one wing fell, then they would be to close to the ground to catch themselves... that was however still in 2.04 and I don't have 3.00 yet

JtD
11-07-2004, 05:33 AM
The split S is vertical maneuvre. A half loop downwards. Just google.

diomedes33
11-07-2004, 05:59 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
All hail the 190

Needed some divine intervention to get this back on the first page

Fish6891
11-08-2004, 07:41 AM
Question,
What do you people set for gun convergence and why? I am stalemated between choosing 250m and 500m.
I know this is probably a simple question that most know the answer to, but remember that I am new to all this. You must also remember that I am naturally quite dim, being a Fish and all(Woe is me), so take THAT into consideration BEFORE you judge me!
I know Hunde uses 500m and I agree with what he says, but I'm still a tad paranoid of losing a significant punch, should I be?
By the way, the DORA is my main ride.

Regards,
The Flying Fish

JtD
11-08-2004, 09:49 AM
Mine is set to 100.

Inner guns sometimes to 200 when doing ground attacks.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-08-2004, 10:06 AM
Hi,

250m for both, here.

Cheers,
Norris

diomedes33
11-08-2004, 10:47 AM
I alternate between 300 and 250, depends on my mood. I can't really explain it sometimes one just works better than the other on some days.

MOhz
11-08-2004, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...but I'm still a tad paranoid of losing a significant punch, should I be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope you shouldnt, just try things out, whatever works, i have mine at 350. i have noticed that for me the longer range works better. especially because for some reason when i am near the ground when RTBing or so, there are these overconfident p51 drivers, lurking around. they dive at me, miss (of course) and because i am low on energy i wouldnt be foolish enough to follow, but lo and behold, the guy doesnt climb too steeply and since there aint no other bad guy, i quickly eye at what angle the nose has to be to send of a burst to hit they guy. i jerk the nose up, fire the burst, and that is one p51 less on earth...

this is something that has happened to me quite a few times, which is one reason i thought that the 151/20 were effective. i never saw them as bad, because if i didnt down an enemy plane i blamed myself (which is probably right!!) and not the gun...

faustnik
11-08-2004, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Question,
What do you people set for gun convergence and why? I am stalemated between choosing 250m and 500m.
I know this is probably a simple question that most know the answer to, but remember that I am new to all this. You must also remember that I am naturally quite dim, being a Fish and all(Woe is me), so take THAT into consideration BEFORE you judge me!
I know Hunde uses 500m and I agree with what he says, but I'm still a tad paranoid of losing a significant punch, should I be?
By the way, the DORA is my main ride.

Regards,
The Flying Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


For Jabo work convegence set at 500m works well. This seems to be a great range for taking out flak guns.

For air to air in the

190A - set outer guns to 250 and inner guns to 200 or 180. This gives a slight spread with decent concentration.

Fw190D - I have gone down to 180 to get the most out of the two Mg151s. I don't fly the Dora much though.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
11-08-2004, 02:30 PM
i got 160 both.

Ankanor
11-08-2004, 05:53 PM
I have mine set at 160. Currently I fly the A4 in the stalingrad campaign. I have used the Sniper's corner tool, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif One thing I noticed, with MG-FF you have to start shooting with a bit more lead. The results are amazing!!! tails torn apart, La-5 mid-air explosions (no more delta super armor http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif)

To each his own but I strongly advise on the short range convergence. with 200m set, when you fire from 150 m, the spread of the inner cannons is about .5m apart. Still close if you hit the body. And the spread of the outer MG-FF is about 1m = body/wing connection spot (gas tanks) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

mynameisroland
11-10-2004, 08:50 AM
I tried out 500m its ok but dont seem to be able to blow up aircraft the same as I used to. It makes long range shooting so much easier though. I might try inbord at 500 and out board at 250 to smash planes up close

gates123
11-22-2004, 04:22 PM
Great stuff!

JV44Rall
11-23-2004, 07:21 PM
Man, a truly great thread!

Thanks for all of the contributions. I'll suggest to JV44 Stab to plagarize the entirety and put into a FW manual. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Two points I think should be further mentioned:

1. The roll rate differential between a FW 190A and ANYTHING else is maximized at about 400kph. IIRC (there's a chart floating around somewhere), the 190A rolls at about 180 degrees per second at 400kph, while the nearest allied plane (a CW MkXIV Spit??) rolls about 100 degrees per second. Everything else is south of that.

So to maximize your FW's superior roll, get thee to 400kph and stay there!

2. Negative-G rolls are among best defensive maneuvers in an Anton, especially because of the great elevator response. Try alternating between a negative-G knife-edge for a couple of seconds and a hard postive-G turn in the same direction. Flick the plane quickly around to roughly perpendicular to the ground, apply some skyward rudder and push the stick away. Then flick it around 180 degrees, and pull back on the stick to continue the turn in the same direction. Then half-roll back to the negative-G knife-edge again and repeat.

Don't repeat too much - you have to keep them guessing.

TX-Gunslinger
11-24-2004, 01:26 AM
I originally posted this in another thread about FW-190D9 high altitude considerations started by FISH. After thinking it over, I've decided to include it here, to keep this thread up front.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating the adoption of B&Z only fighting, or any other one-dimensional approach to air to air combat. Additionally, I take no responsibility for your pilot life, score, kill tally, or any other objective/subjective measure of combat flight performance if you fly on NON-FULL REAL SERVERS. If you DO NOT fly on at least locked cockpit, no external view servers, then please skip this post.</span>

Please consider this an alternative to, not a disagreement with, conventional wisdom regarding high-altitude utilization of FW-190 series A/C.

First off, let me place the first part of my answer in the form of a question:

How many hours do you have flying FW-190's (all models) at 10K?

Think about it.

1) The air is thin up there, real thin. All aircraft feel "funny". I have a some hours in P-47's up in "nosebleed city", and the first few times you take a "Thunderbolt" to high altitude it's not exactly a confidence inspiring experience. It does handle better than the FW-190A (it should, it's got a turbo-supercharger the size of a small car), but not as much as I thought until I tried it out.

2) The difference between IAS and TAS is extreme. Newer pilots looking at their speed bar (or IAS indicator if they are diligent) will see numbers right around 180-200-220-230, which is scary. Of course if you have the TAS chart printed out and posted next to your monitor (I do) you'll see that at 10K and 200kmh IAS is actually 342 kmh over ground (TAS). Now you'll still stall if you try anything too violent at 150-170 kmh IAS, with the EXCEPTION of a split-S type manuever where you actually point your nose down to pick up speed.

3) The characteristics of the FW which make it incredible at 7K and below, make it "feel" really unstable at 10K. It's not actually, it just feels that way. Just like very low altitude flying, and very accurate FW gunnery at long range you need a great deal of control on the stick; i.e. a very steady hand.

4) At 10 - 11K an FW-190 D9 or A9 (never had an A8 or below up there, so don't ask me. It's possible that the big propeller makes a difference here since it does'nt in other performance characteristics) needs almost 100% elevator trim. You simply can't keep the nose up without that. You have to closely monitor your VSI gauge (the one that tell's you if your climbing or diving and at what rate).

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/190A9-10032-1.jpg

- Note the exaggerated nose up attitude 90% elevator trim, TAS vs IAS

5) In a very competitive environment (read squad scrimmage or squad competition) P-47 guys live up there. I mean it, and you experienced guys know this. They are nice and comfortable, even secure in this domain. They are not used to being attacked here, where their manuverability is ALSO greatly limited. They pretty much drive around in large turning circles, one after the other. But the trick is, they don't live up there unless there is a really good reason for them to go to all that trouble On a regular server, you almost never see P-47's at this altitude. Why? Becuase there are not typically targets for them to shoot at this altitude. Even the meticulous P-47 pilots don't normally have to climb that high to find targets or to dominate them. Why? All the FW/Bf-109 guys are hanging out at 3-5 K, because they aren't supposed to fly that high and to be frank, most people are not going to waste their time going to this altitude. Too much work.

6) IL2 Compare supports this "P-47's go high, FW-190's stay at medium altitude". Note all the flight characteristics that ROSS-Youss choses to depict in IL2 Compare. IL2C does'nt give you all performance characteristics. Turn times are presented at 1000 meters of altitude only, for example.

Do we chose to give the enemy this airspace for free because of our experience? Or is it our perceptions, which dictate our experience?

Now, why in the world would a moron like me, encourage you to gain experience at 9-10K with your FW? Because no one expects you to be there, and it adds one more thing to your bag of tricks.

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/190A9-10210-2.jpg
Note that I just made a 90 degree turn and did'nt fall out of the sky!

Let me let you all in on a little secret. The QMB, while it does'nt simulate the actions of a real pilot very well, does provide some indication of what YOU can do with your plane.

Here is a suggestion:

1) Set up a QMB scenario with 4 FW190 D9/A9 vs 4 P-47 and 4 P-51. Default armament (NO MK 108's, too much drag)
2) Work this situation, until you master it
3) Note that you will actually force the other aircraft down in altitude
4) Keep your radiator open, use prop pitch, high degrees of elevator trim, combat flaps and even take off flaps (if you get too slow and are starting to stall) to stay airborne.
5) Stay high and take a "break" for a few minutes to let your engine cool

In the end, I just want newer FW pilots to know that they can use these altitudes if they practice. Most P-47's are completely unused to being challenged in this environment. They are experienced at B&Z on the 6-7 K guys at 900 Kph plus.

You should know that if you get above about 7K, you'll start to produced contrails which signficantly increase your visibility distance. This can be a good thing as you will get enemies climbing up to engage. Look for them up sun or attempting to climb just outside your dot range.

Don't just circle around up here, move around in long leg sawtooth patterns or even in a straight line. You want to cover distance to uncover the climbing P-47's. As soon as you see their contrails BELOW you, dive down and smack them at low energy, just as their contrails start to form. That's what they have done to us for years.

Remember however, co-e fights at high altitude are not for the faint-hearted. This is why you need to gain confidence in QMB first. If you are co-altitude and co-energy with a P-47, in a gradual turning circle, he who falls from the sky first (stall) will usually be immediately attacked by the other guy. Remember your advantage in roll rate, always. If you fall, don't keep diving. After about 500-1000 meters the Jug will catch you. Pull back up and gently manuever. Try to hold your altitude, be patient and let him make the first mistake. Remember, 9 out of 10 times, he is not used to fighting you up here either. He wants to B&Z your FW, as you almost predictably, patrol lower.

Last note: I firmly believe that the Antons are modeled somewhat close to correct at this altitude. You read Luftwaffe war accounts of FW-190A's struggling to get above U.S. 8th AF daylight bombers, and they pretty much had to go to these altitudes to do it. But with that said, I also believe that the Dora is heavily misrepresented at this altitiude. The Antons service ceiling was about 10,600 meters in general, and with MW-50 or GM-1 the A8 could fly as high as 11,400 meters. The Dora on the other hand had a service ceiling of 12000 meters, WITHOUT boost.

diomedes33
11-24-2004, 06:45 AM
Excellent post as usual Gunslinger.

I love the BMW logo in your new sig.

OldMan____
11-24-2004, 08:24 AM
Just my contribution

The FW has lots of ammo and a very good distribution of weapons, this combined with the impressive fast control response anables some fancy tatics.


Most of my kills I make with one of these 2 tatics.

1- Do not try to get close to shoot... I use my convergence on 500m and make fast moves to make fast very short bursts around my enemy .. making him move where I want, and dramatcally increasing the chance of a long range hit. These hits usually are not enough to make a target go down.. but very good on making the pilot maneuver and expose a bigger face of its plane to you... an easy target (specially beacuse after 3 or 4 fast bursts you have a pretty good measure of how your bullets are behaving at that distance and moment, so you will hit him at this moment in almost 100% of time).


2-The other tatic is about "almost head-ons". Most players will avoid head-ons since they are indeed dangerous. You can use this to your advantage... aproach in very high closure angles, knowing that your oponent won't force a head-on (if it forces.. you are still on advantage in a FW since you can break faster than any plane can compensate). At last instant a VERY hard input on your picth or rudder give you the angles to a full spray of your (fairly wide) pattern of fire. Usually can hit once in 2 times. Since front face is not very armored on most planes. Even a very brief burst can bring a P47 down.

Fish6891
11-25-2004, 02:03 AM
I'm just going to copy and paste a couple of questions and answers about FWs that are in other threads I've started, this way they're all in this one big thread

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Question by Fish6891</span>:
"Hey TX, I've recently put your Prop Pitch advice to the test on my FW190A9...all I can say is 'WOW' What a difference!

New question tho, does using the Mk108 wing cannons on the A9 affect its flight performance any? I mean I figure it won't since there are no pods, its internal to the wing, but then again I AM a fish, I may just be being stupid."

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Answer by Ankanor</span>:
"Fish, My experience showed the MK108 do affect performance. for the bad. In the goundpounding, I found that the standard armament is good enough for Soft targets. I remember a particular flight on the WC44+ server, I attacked a truck column, using the MK103 at first, they were great, but I had too close convergence and I missed the third and 4th targets. So got shooting only from the inboard 20mm and machineguns, it was enough, the shortest burst put the target on fire. for dogfight,Personally I think the 4*20mm and the machine guns are just fine for any adversary, perhaps only the Jug will survive a well aimed short burst."

Fish6891
11-25-2004, 02:09 AM
Heres another

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Question by Fish6891</span>:
I've been flying the Dora exclusively, but I've never tried this manual prop pitch stuff. Is it really worth it for a Dora pilot to use manual prop and if so, whats so useful about it and how is it used?

Same question for TA152, FW A9 and A6, and Bf G2 G6/AS and K4

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Answer by Zen</span>:
I don't think it's worth the effort, much simpler to stay on auto and not over-rev. Having said that, here are the ground rules I use:

Never let RPM go over 3450 or the engine disintigrates within a couple seconds. The tachometer is THE instrument needed to handle maximum pitch (that and engine sound once you get used to it), but maximum RPM is not automatically maximum acceleration.

Never dive with more than 80% pitch.
Zoom climb with 100% pitch.
Level acceleration seems to be best in the 80-85% range.


Engine overheat occurs more rapidly on manual pitch for the Dora as well, so consider that for X amount of incremental performance increase you are shaving a fair amount of engine life off as a tradeoff, with the constant risk of over-rev if you are not careful. For emergencies that may be ok, but generally a D9 pilot needs to think of the longer duration fights rather than the quick kills.

I haven't tested this in 3.0 or 3.01 yet but it will probably hold true. The Ta152 and the D9 both use a Jumo 213 engine, RPM and other factors are the same in my experience.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">Answer extended by Zen</span>:
I was thinking of this earlier today and decided to do some specific acceleration testing for the Dora. The test covers the 44 and 45 models on automatic, 80% manual and 86% manual. (86% manual due to maximum 3450 U/Min limits, 87%+ tended to over-rev engine by exceeding 3500RPM)


The goal for me was to estimate if there was a difference in acceleration between automatic pitch and manual pitch. I don't claim this as the gospel, but as far as I could see from the tests, there was never more than 3-5km/h speed difference at any given point between the 3 modes I tried and surprisingly using automatic pitch gave the best results. No trim was used and the entire mission was flown in real time with no time acceleration. I attempted to keep the plane level but there was an inevitable 2-3m up and down along the way, so variations in km/h might be due to mild porpoising during flight. Topspeed was not tested and overheat was not a factor since time stopped at 2 minutes (although overheat was enabled, the test wasn't long enough to reach it). I wasn't attempting to demonstrate maximum speed, only acceleration to a reasonable end point. Once the Dora got close to it's absolute maximum speed, I decided that was reasonable enough.

Interesting results now here in 3.01, because it wasn't always that way in previous versions of the game. Maybe we have a kommandogerat that works properly now ...or maybe performance is the same as always, but can no longer be exceeded with manual pitch. I make no claim for either actually, but the results surprised me.

Anyway:
Posted here are the completed D9-45 results. For the D9-44, flying is done but I still need to review the track and set the numbers down. I'll do that in a follow up post tomorrow morning. Acceleration times started at 300km/h which is the 0 mark on the test and the raw tracks are available upon request.

Crimea
Noon
50% Fuel
Radiator Closed
110%+MW50
Altitude 5-15m



See revised charts below.

http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/images/FW190D-Acceleration-Data_small.jpg

http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/images/FW190D-P47-P51-Acceleration-Data.jpg

TX-Gunslinger
11-25-2004, 03:16 AM
Hey GATE! Great FW-190A8 Driving last weekend brother! I got through looking at the tracks early in the week and think you should change your handle to "The FW HAMMER of DOOM". I had great fun, thanks again. BTW, we were never more than a klick or two apart.

Diomedes - Thank you sir! That was the hardest thing, finding a BMW logo that I liked. I took pictures of my car hood ornament, steering wheel, did'nt work out. Went to the BMW website,too small. Finally stole one from an aftermarket desk flag (a desk flag is going a little far in my book, but the emblem was nice!)
Now if we just had a real 801TS to go in the sim A9 with that logo!

Hey Rall! Thanks for the Negative Roll stuff. To be honest, I don't consciously do that enough (getting out evasive checklist and writing, "Dude, push the stick when rolling around .50 cals, don't pull all the time".

OldMan - It continually amazes me, the number of online pilots in lesser armed a/c who will force a head on with an Anton. Silly. Also, I think your point is well taken about the shallow angle advantages and the hard input to the rudder. A wide rudder swing at the last minute is a great way to rake fire accros an enemies fuselage, and many times you'll get the engine and/or pilot to boot. Also, 2-3 hits will utimately kill many A/C because they can't make the landing. In any event, they certainly remove the target from an offensive posture most of the time.

Fish6891
11-25-2004, 03:53 AM
Hey grazie for the edit Snoop! I couldn't quite get those images in there.

Wow, I've just skimmed through this thread, truly a treasure trove of knowledge we've got here!

A big Bravo and Thank You to all of you who've contributed! Heres to all of ya! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,
Fish

MOhz
11-25-2004, 05:46 AM
Hullo there, can someone post a IL2Compare (pre-PF) of La5 vs Fw190A6 in turn rate? thanks!

Gunslinger was talking about he highspeed wing of the A8,A9. I remember once flying against a La5(FN?) and I felt confident that I could shack him off because we were flying at 500 plus and at those speeds in an A9 one can feel comfi. So I tried scissors, but he had no prob following so I did some high energy bleeding turns which throws off most planes, but of course is bad for me, but even then he was still behind me. So I just wanted to compare La5 with A6! thanks

mortoma
11-25-2004, 11:29 AM
I'm suprised I haven't seen the old "FW-190 is not a turn fighter" addage in this thread yet. For some reason, nobody bothered to inform the real life 190 pilots back in W.W.II that it wasn't a 'turn fighter' because most of them did in fact turn fight in it. It's only the IL2/FB ( and other sims ) so-called 'experts' that have decided it's not a turn fighter. Funny, I've read many accounts of heavy turn/knife fighting done by pilots in FWs back in the war. Everybody thinks they're an expert around here. Notice I said 'thinks'.

OldMan____
11-25-2004, 02:22 PM
The only poitn against turn fighting in 190 is the very nervous controls. Back in 3.00 It was very easy to turn fight without worries. Know it is even more nervous than in 2.01.. so you need a much more precise hand now in 3.01.

TX-Gunslinger
11-25-2004, 06:55 PM
Hey MOhz,

Unless you are flying a Dora, you should not attempt to turnfight an La-5FN, which is just a tiny bit shy of an "shudder" La-7.

The charts you requested will prove this out. I included all La-5 series A/C just in case it was'nt an La-5FN you were up against.


http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/Il2C-4up-A6vsLa5series.jpg

Yes, you do have a little bit of an edge at 500kmh against the lesser La5 series, however it's not enough if you enter the turn at 500kmh. Your only gaining angles at a very, very slow rate, while your energy is bleeding at a much faster rate.

You simply cannot compete in turn against this A/C class. Look at how wide his performance curve is!

You mentioned scissoring against this La. That may not be a bad, last ditch tactic, but you must then take him down to a stall. Since you can't gain angles during your scissors, you must force an overshoot of some kind, to take shots while your'e going back and forth. That means you are attempting to get him out in front of you long enough to shoot. This of course is a very dangerous tactic in an Anton, but if you want to go there you should practice this manuever for in QMB before you ever go online with it. If you can't force the AI to overshoot, your'e not going to do too well against real people.

Now, what I might do, rather than scissor at that point against that threat, is to go negative with the "negative knife" to avoid his first volley, and then drop throttle and "Von Roll" (just lost 100kmh - thank you Butcher Bird Brotherhood), popping take-off, then landing flaps as I slowed, finally gear (just remember to put all that stuff up after you kill him, don't want jammed flaps and broke gear). That manuever I just described (Von Roll) represents the maximum deceleration technique in an FW, short of impact with the ground. If you want him to overshoot, then this is better than the scissors, I think. Scissoring is typically much more effective in a Dora (see Zen).

Many of the approaches you read here are correct, but the problem is in proper execution, which can be very hard, especially when things are happening very quickly. At least when you know what is going on, you can evaluate what did or did not work out. I have gotten my abilities to the point where at least I know why I got killed. That does'nt in itself, however, fix everything. I practice, practice and practice the execution of things that I know I'm weak in. My kills go up with every engagement, every competition, now that I know how to survive.

Analysis of these performance charts will reveal why and how altitude, energy and sheer speed can be levered against the La-5 series, and shed light on some of the differences between FW varients in terms of actual performance versus "feel".

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/Il2C-4up-A6-9-D9vsLa5-analysis.jpg

I think these are self-explantory. The only thing that I can think to add is that, keeping your engine cool, using cowl flaps (Anton's and Dora's) and propeller pitch (in Anton's not Dora's) correctly and proficiently coupled with giving your engine time to cool prior to engagement is more important in the FW series than in about any other A/C. Why? Look at the "spread" or difference in speed between a hot and cool engine. To me, a cool engine is represented by the "MAX" label in IL2 Compare. If your engine is overheating, you cannot expect to keep on pushing it forever, else it will eat itself. If the engine is hot, sooner or later you'll have to bring the throttle back below 100% to cool. (To be totally technically correct, "MAX" actually represents the maximum level speed or climb attainable with WEP engaged and at maximum or 110% throttle). Mid to late war Luftwaffe engines were for the most part improved by WEP, not be building entirely new engines from the ground up. This results in the Max lines for the La-5 series being very close together, while the FW's are very far apart. Bottom line is, there is a much greater penalty for you to not be able to use WEP and 110% power than your
allied adversaries, for the most part.

Oh yeah, one last thing. It would be criminal if I did'nt show you, MOhz, one of the reasons why I'm flying the Dora alot these days. So now imagine you are scissoring with that La again. Would'nt it have been nice if you'd had this plane?
http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190-flight/D9vsLa-5FNturn-CombatFlaps.jpg
This is a good example of why you need to be very careful in employing combat flaps. They are not a "cure-all" for turning. When you are fast, don't even employ them, as you will ruin your horizontal turn rate. In fact if you are at 480 kmh and engage them, you went from 24 secs for 360 degrees up to a rate of 33 secs/360 degrees. Look what happens to the La-5FN if he engages those flaps! Bottom line: You should not use combat flaps to improve horizontal turning in this A/C above 390 kmh, according to IL2C, unless of course you do want to bleed off some 'E'. The combat flaps will slow you more rapidly in this case. Now, since the Dora has so much acceleration capabilty, lost 'E' is not nearly as problematic as is the case with Antons.

As always, I hope my ramblings and "rubber chicken graphs" have helped you.

S~ and Horrido!

TX-Gunslinger
Black 2

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 03:28 AM
something else very important in FW flying is your joystick settings. It is far more inportant than in any plane.


Standard is:

10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100

Most joystick adjustments propposed for most planes create a less responsive in begining like:

0 5 10 17 25 33 43 54 71 100

and the setup above is the worse thing you can do in ana anton. You loose your fast initial nose response, an increase the stall tendency at high deflection in elevator due to fast changes between 50 and 100% (where you have know almost no precision)

I setup my maximum level of input, just enought to make me abele to start a von roll, NOTHING more. This cuts out 90% of the ANGRY FLYING of the anton. This also gives you margin for a more precise joystick input at lower levels (where most your input will take place)


For instance, in pitch I use soemthign near:

8 16 25 35 47 56 64 72 80 88


much more precise control and stall risk very reduced, since the snap stal in Antons happens at >80 input (trim adjusted by speed)

You have just enough to start a snapstall if you want to, but not to much margin to do it by accident.

Steven190
11-26-2004, 08:43 AM
OldMan
Can you post your JS settings? I am curious about them. would like to try them.
I am using Oleg's setting now, but I have a MS FFB2 stick. Would like to see what a FW setting would be, I fly the fW mostly if I can

Thanks

This is a GREAT thread

OldMan____
11-26-2004, 05:04 PM
It varies getween the above posted one and :
7 18 28 39 49 56 66 75 82 88 (I am testing this one now)

That is picth only. You may like to reduce roll a little bit, but I advise to not exceed yourself on it since is not really needed.

All other setting are default.


keep in mind different joy setups may work diferently on different joysticks (mine is an EVO)

The first pitch setting is a more precise and smooth one, but currently I am trying the second one in attempt to improve my head one response time.

Fish6891
11-29-2004, 12:34 AM
I haven't noticed any changes in the FW190D9 or Ta in 3.02(Haven't tried Antons much yet tho), nor do I feel that other aircraft have changed drastically enough to change the amount of caution with which to approach them in the Butcherbirds, but maybe its just cause I'm a fish. Anyone else agree with me?

OldMan____
11-29-2004, 03:48 AM
FW are alittle bit more nervous since 3.01, but nothing changed in 3.02


Hey.. did anyone tryed my joy setup?

Steven190
11-29-2004, 06:15 AM
OldMan
I tried your settings. I found the FW to be better in the vertical, but sometimes rough in it's manor. Need to test more.

Thanks
Keep up the good work.

OldMan____
11-29-2004, 10:59 AM
manor? Srry English is no my mother language so can't understand that.

Copperhead310th
11-29-2004, 01:30 PM
Thanks for all the free intel guys.
The Thunderbolt pilots will be waiting for you.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Jugs rule. carry on. lol

faustnik
11-29-2004, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Thanks for all the free intel guys.
The Thunderbolt pilots will be waiting for you.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Jugs rule. carry on. lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! That's funny coming from you Copperhead. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

OldMan____
11-29-2004, 05:00 PM
People seems to over complain about the FW190. Specially maneuverability. Ok it IS nervous, but it IS VERY AGILE, at high speed (400+) only corsair and P51 are superior. Corsair is much more smooth and confortable in maneuvers.. but this is not a ride in the park..is war. So hang tight and you can turn wiht almost any plane at combat speed.

just in case.. combat speed is NOT 250 kph ..is 380-480 kph


One thing hard in FW is the firing dispersion.. if our dispersion was like .50... pfff red planes would cry.

Ankanor
11-29-2004, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Thanks for all the free intel guys.
The Thunderbolt pilots will be waiting for you.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Jugs rule. carry on. lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome, You will need it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
BTW, the wait is over, we are 5 o'clock high http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Copperhead310th
11-29-2004, 10:52 PM
"it's five o'clock somewhere....."
http://us.ent2.yimg.com/musicfinder.yahoo.com/images/yahoo/arista/alanjackson/0203_alan_jackson_live_a.jpg
{Country music artist Allan Jackson}

faustnik
11-30-2004, 12:58 AM
We should all value Copperhead for the increased kill stats he provides for Axis pilots online. For this, his trolling might be tolerated.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TX-Gunslinger
11-30-2004, 01:26 AM
Hi Old_man,

I read your posts about joystick settings with interest. I agree that the FW series are as "nervous" as ever. I don't have the same type of joystick as you, but I employ a similar solution (joystick curve alteration) in slightly different arrangement.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/joem/CougarJoyIL2FBPFver5.1.jpg

I find the "nervousness" worst during extended, high-intensity dogfighting, with multiple bogeys (especially after too much coffee). I typically operate my 190-D9 and A9 on Joystick setting +1 (T7 switch all the way left, "hot" or sensitve setting) or +2 (T8 switch all the way right "really hot" or very sensitive setting).

The first time I catch myself overcorrecting, I move the setting back to "Oleg" (middle position of the switch). I really love having 3 sensitivity curves at my fingertips. Keeps my "nerves" in check. Additionally, in a tight spot, I think it's better to retain your Energy, which is what the more gradual curve does.

I've been testing the FW-190 D9 utilizing UDP Graph and UDP Track. I wanted to monitor the DeviceLink interface to see how close the sim comes right now to IL2 compare in turn-rate with and without combat flaps. I'm amazed at how close the 2.4 IL2-Compare charts are to the current sim. The reason this comes up when thinking about your posts is that you'll hear many great pilots talk about using "combat flaps" on the Focke Wulf's, but sometimes it does'nt make sense. I know I do this quite a bit when turning into a bogey, to make a shot. Point is that I think the intermittant use of combat flaps actually takes the "nervousness out" more than anything else while turning hard.

Do you use combat flaps when turning hard? Does that help you to control the "nervousness"?

Thought you'd be interested in some alternate approaches, however I must say that I think it's very clever to knock out the "0" setting in the pitch for the joystick that you use.

S! and Horrido

OldMan____
11-30-2004, 03:12 AM
I use combat flaps a lot, but never for more than 3 or 4 seconds. I use them to induce a fast initial turn without the shaking that we get when we pull our stick too hard... or to help get out of dives without putting to much pressure on stick (justa a single second of flaps put your nose up lots of degrees) Then when my stick is already at a high deflection I release the combat flaps to not loose speed.

Important to notice.. the nose up given by combat flaps NEVER causes you to stall or flip. So when you need that little extra nose up to shoot and you are near flight envelope border... use it without fear.

Think is very important to pay attention at wich section of the joystick course you make most of your hard moves and setup your joystick to a more relaxed (and more exact) input at that level.

Unfortunately my EVO is not as complex as your stick so can't have such an option of 3 setups. I even wanted to buy a X45 or X52 but is too much heavy (a X52 costs 115 dollars of TRANSPORTATION ONLY to bring it from USA to Brazil).

Fish6891
11-30-2004, 06:38 AM
Hey guys, just a Heads-Up, according to a post by Hunde, Oleg has stated that a better manual prop pitch system has been implemented with the Dora. I'll be checking it out either later today or tomorrow. Perhaps manual prop pitch will be worth it on the Dora now.

TX-Gunslinger
11-30-2004, 07:23 AM
Old_Man___

I apologize, you posted that very thing (use of combat flaps to stabilize manuvering) a while back, and stated that you used them for a few seconds while turning. My mind gets weaker the older I get.....

Wow, those shipping rates are outrageous.

Fish, that would be very, very interesting and would have to be associated with the 3.02b patch, because Zen just tested that out with the 3.01.

I, too will check this out over DeviceLink the next few days.

Ankanor
11-30-2004, 09:08 AM
I would be much more glad to hear that the Kommandogerat has the performance of the manual.
Nevertheless, good news.

OldMan____
11-30-2004, 12:54 PM
In fact I prefer like it is now. You can have max power withone setting and a NO OVERHEAT with the auto.

also remember.. that was second world war.. no computers.. no nothing.. it is highly beleivable that the performance of anything automatic at that time was not maximum.

Hunde_3.JG51
11-30-2004, 04:03 PM
Oldman, I don't follow. Are you saying there is no overheat on auto setting? During all of my speed tests there was certainly overheating going on and I never took it off auto. Sorry if that is not what you meant.

Oh, and I have a feeling we use combat flaps in a similar manner. I constantly tap them off and on (but rarely leave them on for more than a second or two) to steady turn or improve intial rate. I also use them when I chase someone vertically to get inside them or to hold my nose up long enough to get the shot I want. When flying the FW-190 I am a flap monkey. The EVO is great for this as I have adjustable buttons just under hat switch thumb mapped to flaps up and down. It becomes subconscious with experience.

Zen--
11-30-2004, 04:40 PM
Is this thread still going lol?

Oleg said that the D9 was tuned for slightly better acceleration by using a new prop pitch device. He didn't say it got better on manual, only that they decided to use a different mechanism to control pitch. The testing I did in 3.01 showed that there was no practical difference between automatic pitch and either 86% manual or 80% manual pitch. I haven't tested in 3.02bm yet but I don't really see why it would have changed back already. (But I am going to retest)

What that means is that at least for the D9, you have a kommandogerat system that really does let you fly hands off and get excellent performance without fiddling with anything. That also removes any chance of exploit by using manual/automatic toggling like the 109's used to be able to do. (although any climb or speed increase from manual pitch in previous versions of the game was marginal at best, it was still something to be used for an acceleration boost)

As far as the overheat goes I think a lot of planes are having quirky issues since PF release...I emailed Oleg about the 3.01 P51D-NA20 taking 39 minutes to overheat at 105% throttle, but he didn't have time for an indepth reply. I'm working on some tracks to send to him for all the major fighter types, I think something is seriously wrong with overheat on the whole now. I think it's a bug and am in the process of bringing it to Oleg's attention with specific documentation.

For sure though, the D9 WILL overheat at full power and full rads in the normal time frame of 4 1/2 minutes or so, but it does not always overheat at 105%+MW50 and full rads. Neither does the Ta, the Ki84 or the La7, at least in 3.01. Please don't assume that it's just the Dora with this problem, it appears to be much larger than that.

Inevitably some yahoo will come here crying about planes that never overheat and boo-hooing about national bias or how they're pet plane got porked, but from what I can tell there is no single country or category of planes that can exploit this, it affects some planes and not others.

My opinion though is that overheat is too big of a factor in this game and always has been. I'm not an expert but I can't see where in history planes would overheat as rapidly as they do in this sim just because they ran at maximim possible power. On occasion that has led to very unrealistic encounters (AEP 2.04 Spit vs Ta152 up high for example) where one plane never overheats and the other overheats too fast.

Perhaps Oleg has changed the criteria for overheat and perhaps engines aren't supposed to overheat as fast as they used to...I think it's a bug but am open to other possibilities. Something longer than 4 1/2 minutes but less than infinity seems more realistic to me, though 39 minutes for the P51 seems too long also.

I'll post more information as I get the testing done.

OldMan____
11-30-2004, 05:14 PM
I am not talking about dora, but about A4, anything more than that is overkill sicnce it is capable of defeating 3 Mustagns and 2 Spitfires while carring a 500 kg bomb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The A4 does never overheat at manual as long as you remember to thortle back at dives..if it overhats.. is afetr so much time that is any combat would have finished.

OldMan____
11-30-2004, 05:16 PM
And this thread is still going because is filled with lots of information, people trying to help each other insted of bashing and whinning.

TX-Gunslinger
11-30-2004, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:

My opinion though is that overheat is too big of a factor in this game and always has been. I'm not an expert but I can't see where in history planes would overheat as rapidly as they do in this sim just because they ran at maximim possible power. On occasion that has led to very unrealistic encounters (AEP 2.04 Spit vs Ta152 up high for example) where one plane never overheats and the other overheats too fast.

Perhaps Oleg has changed the criteria for overheat and perhaps engines aren't supposed to overheat as fast as they used to...I think it's a bug but am open to other possibilities. Something longer than 4 1/2 minutes but less than infinity seems more realistic to me, though 39 minutes for the P51 seems too long also.

I'll post more information as I get the testing done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Absolutely agree.

Looking forward to your test results.

S!

Zen--
12-03-2004, 07:42 AM
Got a response back from Oleg that air temperature IS modelled with altitude and that he is aware of the differences in overheat times based on throttle settings. This means that it should take longer to overheat the higher you go or the lower your throttle setting.

That explains it to me, I had remembered thinking he said air temperature was not modelled, but he corrected me and said that it was.

Spinnetti
12-03-2004, 02:15 PM
Great stuff guys!

Nothing to add, but since I fly the A5 pretty much exclusively since IL2 was first released, I thought I would chime in.. I was building a real flying 190 replica (60% scale), but ran out of time with little kids. A guy in AU built a 80% scale one with a russian radial that is pretty sweet.. I hope to also eventually.

Cheers!

Gerd_Schopfel
12-03-2004, 03:13 PM
Um voador Brasileiro uh! Oque faz e onde mora?
So estou curioso http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Eu moro no USA e sou um estudante no Spartan School of Aeronautics.


http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/War_Wolf.jpg
"SUCCESS FLOURISHES ONLY IN PERSEVERANCE - CEASELESS, RESTLESS PERSEVERANCE.€œ
-BARON MONFRED BON RICHTHOFEN

Capt_Pepper
12-05-2004, 12:39 PM
This is it.....to me, this is what this forum can represent.

As most that know me will verify, I rarely fly Axis planes...just not good in them. I do however, harbor the utmost respect for those who have mastered the ability to fly them.

Despite my personal flying ability (or lack thereof...) I am very grateful for this information. But not just for it's unbelievable content....I am grateful to all those who took the enormous amount of time and energy to find, compile, analyze, and especially share their experience and knowledge.

This incredible information comes from some of the absolute best pilots who fly them...not only in knowledge and experience, but as evidenced by this thread, in character as well.

By virtue of their efforts, an ongoing resource has been created for all to use. I strongly hope others who are fortunate enough to read this will share my appreciation and realize what has been made available...not just the content, but the spirit in which is was created that still continues.

I admire and salute each and every one of you who have positively contributed to this unselfish work. Hopefully it will not be defiled....


Sincerely,
Pepper

JG5_UnKle
12-05-2004, 01:42 PM
Great thread.

I can only add one very small piece of advice. The 190 is very prone to exploding when hit in the belly (around the trailing edge of the wing) as this is where the fuel tank is, try not to expose this area.

Do your best not to get shot at all (clearly!) as the 190 loses performance very quickly when even light damage is taken - especially wings.

When carrying the MG FF cannons (A-4/A-5) remember they have much lower muzzle velocity, I like to set the convergence (cannons) to a higher amount, doesn't do a great deal I'm sure but it works for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jagdklinger
01-24-2005, 01:25 AM
Superb thread. Good work, guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Manos1
01-24-2005, 01:50 PM
I have not been flying FW190, I do not like this plane.

But since I have been reading this thread, I will start investing some time in it.

Thank you guys for all the time you sacrificed for the rest of us! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

~S~
335th_GRAthos

OldMan____
01-24-2005, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Manos1:
I have not been flying FW190, I do not like this plane.

But since I have been reading this thread, I will start investing some time in it.

Thank you guys for all the time you sacrificed for the rest of us! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

~S~
335th_GRAthos <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

how can you not LOVE 190? heretic! Burn him! Burn ! Burn!

notgoodknight
01-24-2005, 04:27 PM
if you like the fw190, look for my new video. It is completed and is pending upload shortly.

MrMojok
05-17-2006, 05:30 PM
I bumped this because it is the single greatest thread I have ever read on these boards, and I thought maybe there would be others like me who had not seen it originally.

danjama
05-17-2006, 06:22 PM
Can you tell us why you think its so great?

MrMojok
05-17-2006, 11:04 PM
1) It gives the FW190 neophyte an idea of how to use the plane

2) It delves deep into the subject of CEM (specifically relating to this plane) which forementioned neophyte might not understand

3) It was constructive, unlike many threads here.


If I have offended, then all apologies.

GR142_Astro
05-18-2006, 01:24 AM
Most importantly, you ain't Bud Anderson.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
05-18-2006, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
1) It gives the FW190 neophyte an idea of how to use the plane

2) It delves deep into the subject of CEM (specifically relating to this plane) which forementioned neophyte might not understand

3) It was constructive, unlike many threads here.


If I have offended, then all apologies.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif and thanks for the bump

Bremspropeller
05-18-2006, 09:22 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

danjama
05-18-2006, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
1) It gives the FW190 neophyte an idea of how to use the plane

2) It delves deep into the subject of CEM (specifically relating to this plane) which forementioned neophyte might not understand

3) It was constructive, unlike many threads here.


If I have offended, then all apologies.

No you didnt offend i hope i didnt give that impression, was just curious http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

It is a good thread, so bump one more time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ratsack
05-21-2006, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Most importantly, you ain't Bud Anderson.

Which model of Focke-Wulf Bud Anderson fly? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

OldMan____
05-21-2006, 01:40 PM
Unfortunately quite some knowledge form here is outdated. FW does not have its superior isntant turn rate thither the most effective elevator. In compensation it keeps E much better than it used to do and since 151/20 correction it can kill anything in half a blink time.

CUJO_1970
05-21-2006, 11:09 PM
Oleg and team have had to tone down the FW190A to below historic capabilities in an attempt to avoid the complete domination of online servers by said Focke-Wulfs.

Many gnoob servers allow the FW to fly both sides in an effort to stop the carnage.

FI.RULES
06-07-2006, 05:02 PM
Long read this...

well i just havent figured out if the FW-190 had manual prop-pitch or not...one post here said they didn´t...So, how is it now then?

And if they did have it were is the control for it in the cockpit?

Thnx for a good read...

Brain32
06-07-2006, 05:12 PM
They did have it, it was I believe the only thing that could be switched to manual, I really don't know where is the switch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

zero85ZEN
06-07-2006, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
They did have it, it was I believe the only thing that could be switched to manual, I really don't know where is the switch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I believe the default setting (my rig is set up this way and I didn't change that I recall) is shift+0 to switch between auto and manual pitch.

zero85ZEN
06-07-2006, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
They did have it, it was I believe the only thing that could be switched to manual, I really don't know where is the switch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Ahhh, I see that you're talking about where the actual physical switch is in the cockpit. I'll have to look at one of my FW 190 books with a good cockpit schematic to try and find it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

FI.RULES
06-08-2006, 10:59 AM
BUMP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

tigertalon
06-08-2006, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
Oleg and team have had to tone down the FW190A to below historic capabilities in an attempt to avoid the complete domination of online servers by said Focke-Wulfs.

Many gnoob servers allow the FW to fly both sides in an effort to stop the carnage.

Instead, they should enable type - number restriction on map... Eg: there are only two Fws possible to fly for blue, all other players must choose other flyables.

TX-Gunslinger
06-09-2006, 09:02 AM
As a minor contributor to this thread which resurfaces from time to time - let me throw out a couple of Caveats:

"Von Roll" - Obsolete after 4.0 - No matter how hard you pull back on the stick, you can't achieve the vicious, historical sudden stall anymore.

All you'll achieve is to lose more 'E' and make a better target.

On the previous page Old_Man (very wise person, if you're new I'd recommend listening to him) points out the instantaneous turn rate is not what it used to be. This is mostly due to lower rate of roll at high speed after one of the 3.xx patches. That was the patch that improved PF take-off performance on stationary aircraft carriers and started the 109G2 issues with low speed performance issues. Current FW rolls too slow at high speed and too fast at low speed. This makes a big difference when flying against CW Spits at high speed.

Anton maximum diving speeds have digressed to about 800 Kmh for safe recovery. The ailerons/elevator will come off when you hit 850kmh and "heavy-handed" control inputs will cause the loss of airfoils at slower speeds, therefore I recommend pulling out of at 800 Kmh with gentle control inputs.

I wish I had time to rewrite the entire portions of my posts, updating guidance. Looks like that won't happen before our new sim comes out. On the other hand, if I get a chance, I will make an attempt this summer if there is enough interest.

Supercharger stage switching has also changed significantly with altitude, so "best" altitude recommendations need to be modified. Until then Mr. Youss's newer IL2-Compare is your best reference.

The A9 reference that I refer to in my posts ("FW-190A9" manual, written by Knighton "Many-Scalps" Warbeck) is obsolete now with the exception of CEM recommendations. Our current A9 is a different ride, but more importantly there have been many, many allied aircraft additions/capability improvements since the original document was written.

The best 190 information and discussion can be found at Faustnik's

http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=F...s&file=viewforum&f=8 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=8)

Particularly precious are FatCat's and Robbans in game testing data and Crumpp's real world FW information. This site is priceless.

If you're a newer pilot, remember that the nature of online simulation is quite a bit different now than it was a few years ago. Specifically, the skill and experience you'll find online in typical encounters is significantly better. A high percentage of the pilots that you encounter are old hands with hundreds and in many cases thousands of hours of flying. As a new pilot, your are in the minority and vulnerable. Find out where the other FW's are flying and link up with them.

Team tactics, wingman procedures and coordination will get you much further than anything else.

Find a squad, learn communications and teamplay. These will get you further than studying anything I've written here.

To master the 190, you must also fly other aircraft, particularly Allied. The most efficient way to master this sim, is to spend time in your adversaries aircraft.

80% of my flying time is still with the 190. Spend time in the aircraft that you face most often. It's fun and gives you a perspective of what others have to deal with in the sim.

In short, the FW-190 series still has performance issues, some new, some old, but then, so do many other aircraft.

I only fly on one server with any regularity anymore, and I believe it's the best server ever built in the sim for historical accuracy. It's obsessively historical. You'll find detailed orders of battle that actually match historical records on 90% of the maps. Monguse, Thrud, Gozr and BBury work very hard to provide skins, briefings and support documentation which for me, provide a heighted immersion and realistic setting, which is unmatched and very fair. You'll find all our beloved 190's in correct historical perspective.

Historia information at http://www.gozr.net/iocl/index.php

Good luck and Warm Regards

Gunny

karost
06-09-2006, 10:45 AM
TX-Gunslinger , Thanks for a likes

http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums

that is what we call freedom http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

FI.RULES
06-11-2006, 02:12 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gifIs there no control for prop-pitch in the FW?

FI.RULES
06-12-2006, 07:48 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Brain32
06-12-2006, 07:57 AM
What? How many times do you need an answer?
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Yes there was manual pitch control in a FW190.
Is it ok now? Do you maybe have a problem with manual pitch in FW's? Is FW190 not porked enough maybe?

FI.RULES
06-12-2006, 08:00 AM
Yes, but how to control it?

It is not enough to flip a switch and say "I´m on manual prop-pitch now", you need something to actualy alter it with...

Brain32
06-12-2006, 08:40 AM
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9613/manualpitch0on.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

FI.RULES
06-12-2006, 08:45 AM
Thanx....

Brain32
06-12-2006, 08:51 AM
NP http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Sorry for the rather crancky earlier outburst I have a bit edgy day...

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-12-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
I only fly on one server with any regularity anymore, and I believe it's the best server ever built in the sim for historical accuracy. It's obsessively historical. You'll find detailed orders of battle that actually match historical records on 90% of the maps. Monguse, Thrud, Gozr and BBury work very hard to provide skins, briefings and support documentation which for me, provide a heighted immersion and realistic setting, which is unmatched and very fair. You'll find all our beloved 190's in correct historical perspective.

Historia information at http://www.gozr.net/iocl/index.php

Gunny


Good post Gunny. I'll also reiterate that HISTORIA has (and always has had) skin DL ON. GOZR has the resources to be able to do it and still maintain smooth gameplay although the pilot number allowed is a bit lower than on other servers (I think it's set at 24). But as we all know, 12 on each side still makes for exciting and fast gameplay.


TB

FI.RULES
06-12-2006, 04:04 PM
No problem brain, it hapens to us all at times...

justflyin
06-12-2006, 04:38 PM
Ooooooh, glad I saw this today. It will help refresh my memory and give me some post V4.0x tips on FW mangement for my upcoming "Brain" battle. hehe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

anarchy52
06-12-2006, 05:38 PM
alas, FW-190 is not what it used to be, not that it ever lived up to expectations.

It all comes down to:
a) if enemy is slower, signifficantly lower on E or doesn't see you - you have a chance
b) if enemy is faster - you're dead.

P.S. Same applies to D9 but not many planes are faster at mid/low alt (only MustangIII IIRC)

Ratsack
06-13-2006, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
... not that it ever lived up to expectations.


Yes, it has never been as good as I would have expected.


Originally posted by anarchy52:
...
b) if enemy is faster - you're dead.


Bullsh1t!

If they're faster, make 'em slower. Contrary to popular belief, you can dogfight in the Fw190A. You just can't do it the same way you would in a Bf109.

cheers,
Ratsack

Brain32
06-13-2006, 03:30 AM
Contrary to popular belief, you can dogfight in the Fw190A.
Currently I strongly disagree with this statement, but I hope justflyin will teach me how to do it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

anarchy52
06-13-2006, 04:54 AM
Contrary to popular belief, you can dogfight in the Fw190A.

I would gladly accept you in our squadron to show us how to dogfight La-5FN in FW-190A5 (in ADW, not some n00b server).

WOLFMondo
06-13-2006, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Contrary to popular belief, you can dogfight in the Fw190A.
Currently I strongly disagree with this statement, but I hope justflyin will teach me how to do it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree about the fact you can dogfight in all the 190 variants. Using scissors and some good throttle and flap work you can DF in them but its not ideal. They are the best plane to perform a scissors in though, which itself is a tight dogfighting manouver.

The only downside is that your opponent might seet this happening and keep there distance but its true of any plane that you stand a chance of dying if your low and slow and your opponent is high and fast but I belive in a 190 you stand a good chance of avoidance with that roll rate.

anarchy52
06-13-2006, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I agree about the fact you can dogfight in all the 190 variants. Using scissors and some good throttle and flap work you can DF in them but its not ideal. They are the best plane to perform a scissors in though, which itself is a tight dogfighting manouver.
rate.
Only situation where scissoring works well for FW is when your opponent is trying to evade by scissoring in horizontal. But anyone doing that is obviously a very inexperienced player and you could probably turnfight with him.
Scissors are much more suited for 109 at mid/low speed.

Great, we have two candidates to demonstrate the dogfighting qualities of FW-190 which I missed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All do respect you can not judge the FW-190s abilities in an environment with plenty of less experienced players going in alone, low, slow without a wingman and flying western allied planes.

WOLFMondo
06-13-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I agree about the fact you can dogfight in all the 190 variants. Using scissors and some good throttle and flap work you can DF in them but its not ideal. They are the best plane to perform a scissors in though, which itself is a tight dogfighting manouver.
rate.
Only situation where scissoring works well for FW is when your opponent is trying to evade by scissoring in horizontal. But anyone doing that is obviously a very inexperienced player and you could probably turnfight with him.
Scissors are much more suited for 109 at mid/low speed.

Great, we have two candidates to demonstrate the dogfighting qualities of FW-190 which I missed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All do respect you can not judge the FW-190s abilities in an environment with plenty of less experienced players going in alone, low, slow without a wingman and flying western allied planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I say, not ideal but it does work, I guess its also dependent on opponent. The other day I did a co-op and got in a bad situation, wingman was shot down and had 2 AI spits and 2 Human Tempests (guys from 'IMS' squad) after me, I dropped flaps, dropped the throttle and started a scissors, forced them all to overshoot, one Tempest stalled and crashed trying to follow and the then other I got when he overshot me during the scissors. The Spits hung back and took me to peices!

Really what you want is the original author of this thread to show you. Or checkout on Warclouds server a guy called Schlumberger, he used to DF Spits and win all the time.

HellToupee
06-13-2006, 08:42 AM
it can be effective defense wise if they try to follow, no plane can follow the left and right rolling motion and usually overshoots if hes too aggressive. However all the opponent has to do is hang back go verticle or something and it becomes very easy for him to dispatch the 190.

The 109 is still much better at it especially when it sissors vertically.

Ratsack
06-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I agree about the fact you can dogfight in all the 190 variants. Using scissors and some good throttle and flap work you can DF in them but its not ideal. They are the best plane to perform a scissors in though, which itself is a tight dogfighting manouver.
rate.
Only situation where scissoring works well for FW is when your opponent is trying to evade by scissoring in horizontal. But anyone doing that is obviously a very inexperienced player and you could probably turnfight with him.
Scissors are much more suited for 109 at mid/low speed.

Great, we have two candidates to demonstrate the dogfighting qualities of FW-190 which I missed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All do respect you can not judge the FW-190s abilities in an environment with plenty of less experienced players going in alone, low, slow without a wingman and flying western allied planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I say, not ideal but it does work, I guess its also dependent on opponent. The other day I did a co-op and got in a bad situation, wingman was shot down and had 2 AI spits and 2 Human Tempests (guys from 'IMS' squad) after me, I dropped flaps, dropped the throttle and started a scissors, forced them all to overshoot, one Tempest stalled and crashed trying to follow and the then other I got when he overshot me during the scissors. The Spits hung back and took me to peices!

Really what you want is the original author of this thread to show you. Or checkout on Warclouds server a guy called Schlumberger, he used to DF Spits and win all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I agree. It's not an ideal situation, but it can be done successfully. I'm not a great dogfighter, but on Australian Skies I have frequently killed La-7s that held the initial advantage of energy and / or position, usually while flying an Fw190A-6. They hold all the cards except roll, but if they can be suckered into a close fight, the scissors regularly gets them in front in a matter of 2 to 3 reversals, and then they're toast. The main thing is to keep the bastage in sight so that you ensure your reversal is not directly across the bandit's gun line. In other words, you introduce subtle vertical inputs in each reversal, or alternatively go for the full spiralling / rolling scissors.

The same goes for Spitfire MkIXs. The only caveats I'll put on that are that I don't voluntarily dogfight Spit IXs: that's a losing proposition. And secondly, I find the 25 lb MkIXs harder to kill than La-7s or La-5s. It can be done, but I know I've been in a fight when I've finished.

The other thing about fighting Spits that have the initial advantage is that I usually try to nail them on the very first reversal from my initial defensive turn. Any Fw190 can do this reversal so much faster than the Spit that if the bandit is fast, there's a good chance the sucker will still be trying to deal with your guns defense by the time you've fully reversed on them. In this case the bandit presents the opportunity for a planform or upper rear quarter snap shot. If my aim is any good (which is frequently isn't: I'm a cr@p shot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif), the bandit will not get to take a second bite at the cherry. Four 20 mm will do that.

It can be done. It's not easy, but it can be done.

cheers,
Ratsack

JamesBlonde888
06-13-2006, 09:01 PM
Just line up head on passes and rake your enemy.

The 190 is a flying arsenal. Use it.

WWMaxGunz
06-14-2006, 04:29 AM
FW is a classical energy fighter against most opponents IF you keep the speed up.
What is said above, scissor vertical (rolling scissors?) and keep your E rather than blowing
it to catch one nme unless you only have one. Try that with me and I go up, not in front,
and then you have a problem. Blowing your E is a desperation move, not a tactic.

WOLFMondo
06-14-2006, 05:05 AM
I think if you go around always assuming your going to be in a situation that your energy will always be good you've already got problems because it will not always be the case.

Yes, its advisable to keep the energy and run when the advantage is lost but you also need to learn and be prepared to fight when your at a disadvantage. Why? Because you will at some point be in a situation like that i.e. just after take off, a sharp avoidance e burning manouver, a Spitty diving on you from 1000m above doing 450mph when your doing 350mph or cruising. No one is going to give you up as potential kill so you need to reverse the situation.

Being a good 190 pilot is about being able to fight without an energy advantage and at least survive and if possible kill your opponent. Its just as important as learning high speed deflection shooting etc.

Ratsack
06-14-2006, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
FW is a classical energy fighter against most opponents IF you keep the speed up.
What is said above, scissor vertical (rolling scissors?) and keep your E rather than blowing
it to catch one nme unless you only have one. Try that with me and I go up, not in front,
and then you have a problem. Blowing your E is a desperation move, not a tactic.

I'm not suggesting the Fw190A driver should blow their energy. The only energy intensive move I've talked about is the initial defensive turn against a Spit with an advantage. While this will cost some E, the alternative is to try to run, and with the dive acceleration the way it is, and the performance of the 25 lb Spit, you're unlikely to get enough separation that way. To be blunt, I'm suggesting a way out of a situation in which you have already made a serious error by letting a Spit get an E or positional advantage on you. With a Spit coming in with a speed advantage, you're not far from check-mate anyway.

From that position, you must make HIM blow HIS energy, and I suggest this be done by a series of rapid reversals, using mainly roll, and very little elevator. This is all very well, but before you can attempt to do this, you first have to survive his first guns pass. I do this with a defensive break, for the reasons outlined above.

It's not perfect, but we're trying to retrieve a really poor situation, so perfection will just have to wait. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

PS - you're right, Max, that if the bandit goes high, the Fw190A has a problem. It's a different kind of problem, but it's made simpler by the fact that the Spit's gone up, introducing some separation. It's not ideal, but we're no longer in the gun envelope so that's a bonus. We ain't dyin' in the next three seconds, at least! Secondly, it opens up the possibility of a wide range of second moves, including a diving exit in an unexpected direction while you're under the bandit's nose, etc, etc, etc...

Brain32
06-14-2006, 05:28 AM
Guys when it comes to Spit25 vs fw190Antons, just forget about it, only thing that can save you is lesser skill of a Spit25 pilot, speed advantage is almost non existent, dive acceleration advantage also is none, level acceleration is in favour of the spit, climb rate is vastly in favour of spit.
Also, one thing you must never forget, Spitfires(MkIXe familiy and +25lbser) can run at their MAX speed, using ONLY 85% throtthle and thus "cruising" forever at their MAX speed, no other plane in the game can do it, all of them require max power setting for max speed.
Dora(and the Ta) is the only solution for fighting Spit25's and you have to be extremely carefull while doing it. Dora is also the only FW that can engage a 1vs1 DF with the Spitfire on equal terms, in Anton make your pass or two and get the he11 out of dodge. Teamwork is where Antons excell now more than ever, they pack a big, juicy heavy punch and if proper tactics is applied Spits are toast if they stay dancing with the FW's too long, you can even defend from the 25 monsters that way although I would still avoid them big time...

justflyin
06-14-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Contrary to popular belief, you can dogfight in the Fw190A.
Currently I strongly disagree with this statement, but I hope justflyin will teach me how to do it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brain, you do realize that I will not be flying the FW like a Spitfire, right? In order to succeed in a FW, there are several hardfast rules that must be followed and I'm hoping that you will be bringing your patience.

All engagements will be high, fast and will involve very little turning on my part. The FW's strength is B and Z, not T and B. There are definitely much better FW pilots than me out there who could probably support this experiment much better, but I opened my big-mouthed fingers, so I will back them up for better or worse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

However, I have to be honest. After jumping back in the FWs over the past couple of days, she sure ain't what she was. Or maybe I've just spent too much time in my nancyboy Spitfire lately. Either way, maybe we'll open the server for three, so that we can bring along an experten FW flyer to balance the equation better.

After that, we can both jump in Spitfires and we'll truly see where the rubber hits the road in the mad skillz department. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

DEY_RAVEN_UK
06-14-2006, 08:31 AM
Tactics for the FW are all dictated by the skill level of your opponent and aircraft type you are fighting with.
You can usualy tell after the first or second pass if he is good or avaerage and i apply different techniques to suit for example if i have a P51 on my six i will try and stall fight him because 51 is very unstable at slow speeds so high and fast is not the only way to fly a FW.
Mastering the FW at low speeds is a must as far as i am concerned.

Brain32
06-14-2006, 09:17 AM
Brain, you do realize that I will not be flying the FW like a Spitfire, right? In order to succeed in a FW, there are several hardfast rules that must be followed and I'm hoping that you will be bringing your patience.
Well if you will fly the FW190 like I would, then it will probably end up inconclusive, I also have to tell you that I don't turn much with a Spitty also, only when in serious trouble or to make that final angle that will finish off the opponent. The thing is I already have a good idea how will you fight now that you mentioned it but that will only confirm what I'm talking about all this time - you can not DF vs the Spitfire in a FW190, you simply can not. If you plan to extend to oblivion every time(that is btw not a DF) building separation to turn around only to find out I can counter that with ease what will that show to us in the light of all discussions we had? That FW190 is a superiour plane - I don't think so. Sure 190 is dangerous in situations where a pack of them enters the area with an alt advantage and good teamwork, but looking at the FW190 in perspective of a single fighter I'm not too pleased with what I see in game.
First thing and IMO the most limiting and most frustrating I can think of is it's front view, for a plane that is suppose to rely on deflection shooting it's extremely poor, and knowing what was it like in RL I can only say that we have an insult of history there. Second thing is dive and zoom modelling which are problematic across the game on all fighters so it's really pretty even. My FW190 whines would drop for about 95% if only we had a historical view.
BTW as for our match, I miscalculated the time zone difference, 8pm in your time zone is actually 2am here, not 2pm, so if you can make it 2h earlier it will be great as 2am is questionable for me.
The funny thing is that I was at HL today at 2pm waiting for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

justflyin
06-14-2006, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Brain, you do realize that I will not be flying the FW like a Spitfire, right? In order to succeed in a FW, there are several hardfast rules that must be followed and I'm hoping that you will be bringing your patience.
Well if you will fly the FW190 like I would, then it will probably end up inconclusive, I also have to tell you that I don't turn much with a Spitty also, only when in serious trouble or to make that final angle that will finish off the opponent. The thing is I already have a good idea how will you fight now that you mentioned it but that will only confirm what I'm talking about all this time - you can not DF vs the Spitfire in a FW190, you simply can not. If you plan to extend to oblivion every time(that is btw not a DF) building separation to turn around only to find out I can counter that with ease what will that show to us in the light of all discussions we had? That FW190 is a superiour plane - I don't think so. Sure 190 is dangerous in situations where a pack of them enters the area with an alt advantage and good teamwork, but looking at the FW190 in perspective of a single fighter I'm not too pleased with what I see in game.
First thing and IMO the most limiting and most frustrating I can think of is it's front view, for a plane that is suppose to rely on deflection shooting it's extremely poor, and knowing what was it like in RL I can only say that we have an insult of history there. Second thing is dive and zoom modelling which are problematic across the game on all fighters so it's really pretty even. My FW190 whines would drop for about 95% if only we had a historical view.
BTW as for our match, I miscalculated the time zone difference, 8pm in your time zone is actually 2am here, not 2pm, so if you can make it 2h earlier it will be great as 2am is questionable for me.
The funny thing is that I was at HL today at 2pm waiting for you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, I never said the FW was the superior plane and anybody who turn fights a FW against a Spitfire will most likely always end up a flaming pile of wreckage. Of course, I'm going to always try to be above you and faster, if possible these days. I didn't think you wanted me to turn a FW, only fight in one. Any engagement is a dogfight, btw.

Ah, time zones....It is currently 11:32AM EST Wednesday, June 14th, 2006. I don't get out of work until 6PM most days, sometimes later. I'm thinking the weekend might be better, as you seem to be +6 hours ahead of me in time zones.

Let's continue this topic via PM.

Genie-
06-15-2006, 08:29 AM
FW 190 Tactics against 90% of on line opponents in (La and Spit 25) in some kind of simulated war (ADW, VEF, any kind of bellum clone) is to get on 7K, if you see an enemy plane, dive try to hit him and then run away, AND be very near to your AF, if enemy starts to chase you, he will get you. If you try to stay and fight whit ANY kind of your described flying you are dead.

WWMaxGunz
06-15-2006, 09:19 AM
If Spit-25 reaches max speed at 85% power then what happens at 100% power?

Blowing E in FW takes slewing around in flat turns, deliberately slowing to "let nme pass"
and other like moves.
Work in the vertical. If you need to slow down then rise so you can recover speed in dive.
Not talking about insane rise till 240 kph or dive to 700, just rise enough to not overshoot
while rolling to keep and eye on the target.
Turning in the vertical is by roll in a moderate to steep climb or dive, FW can change 180
degrees direction very quickly through roll unmatchable by Spitfire.

What a shame, after many years Bullethead's Training Pages are gone! The tactics were so
well explained in a general way that they even applied well to Red Baron all versions.

If you are going faster than the target then every angle you pull costs you more drag even
in the same plane. If his plane turns better then go figure, you can't outrun bullets.
YES sometimes you do make the angle and lose some speed, it is called ENERGY FOR ANGLES
but you only do small angle and only for what is close to your nose. If you can't make
the shot then rise as efficiently as possible with a small curve so you can come down again
or run. Work the plane like a roller coaster and keep the target turning as hard as you
can get him to. The object is to force him to play how you want, if you can't -then- take
off.
If you have a wingmate following at 500m then the target that outturns your pass will be
just about right for him to lead. Simple as that. If you have two others shadowing you
high then you two have some security and you are finally flying somewhat the real way.

Conserve your E and you can stay at harassing. If you have to flat turn (as opposed to
rolling in vertical) then tilt the flat and do the turn on the high side with still speed
at least 280-300kph. Realize that in that wingover you can roll 180 and change your turn
to completely the other way in very few seconds.

Practice flying without nme around to distract you from working on and learning lessons.

Brain32
06-15-2006, 09:49 AM
If Spit-25 reaches max speed at 85% power then what happens at 100% power?
Nothing I tested it on Crimea(bla,bla, standard conditions) I also tested SpitfireMkIXe(HF and CW too), just run flat out until you reach max speed, throtthle down to 85% and look, push it back to 100% and look again, the only difference is you can not accelerate or climb as good as on 100% and ofcourse you will overheat at 100% but ofcourse not if you climb, we can't allow that LOL
Genie summed the current tactics pretty well, anything else against those planes and you are counting on opponents extreme incompetence...

Genie-
06-15-2006, 09:59 AM
I would just like to see some of the online war statistics of those FW 190 aces... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Jaws2002
06-15-2006, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
FW 190 Tactics against 90% of on line opponents in (La and Spit 25) in some kind of simulated war (ADW, VEF, any kind of bellum clone) is to get on 7K, if you see an enemy plane, dive try to hit him and then run away, AND be very near to your AF, if enemy starts to chase you, he will get you. If you try to stay and fight whit ANY kind of your described flying you are dead.



This is a very timid type of flying and I think would bore me to death. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif FW-190 is a lot more then just a running weapons platform.

Genie-
06-15-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
This is a very timid type of flying and I think would bore me to death. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif FW-190 is a lot more then just a running weapons platform.

so.. link to your stats?

justflyin
06-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Genie-, you would have to actually fly against Jaws to see the true reason for his supposed FW prowess.

Make a (NTRK) track of it, too and I'll explain what you were actually seeing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

justflyin
06-15-2006, 12:29 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

WWMaxGunz
06-15-2006, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If Spit-25 reaches max speed at 85% power then what happens at 100% power?
Nothing I tested it on Crimea(bla,bla, standard conditions) I also tested SpitfireMkIXe(HF and CW too), just run flat out until you reach max speed, throtthle down to 85% and look, push it back to 100% and look again, the only difference is you can not accelerate or climb as good as on 100% and ofcourse you will overheat at 100% but ofcourse not if you climb, we can't allow that LOL
Genie summed the current tactics pretty well, anything else against those planes and you are counting on opponents extreme incompetence... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try varying prop pitch when at 100%. The prop may be the limiting factor.

Jaws2002
06-15-2006, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Genie-:

so.. link to your stats?



Stats???? What are those? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Jaws2002
06-15-2006, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by justflyin:
Genie-, you would have to actually fly against Jaws to see the true reason for his supposed FW prowess.

Make a (NTRK) track of it, too and I'll explain what you were actually seeing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


No FW prowess here. I just try to fly all planes like fighters even, if sometimes they are not. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

MB80
06-15-2006, 06:37 PM
Some FW190 pilots around who also have a "fast pilot kill" problem if there's an enemy fighter at 6 'o clock? Can't be true that the 109 had better armor protection than the FW190.

Other bad things of the 190 model are:
bad front view http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif (1000 times mentioned)
and the radiator which doesn't cool during climbing, which slow down the 190 without flaps.. and which has really an "overheat" problem, compared to the liquid nitrogen super radiators of some other fighters in the game.

Viper2005_
06-15-2006, 08:29 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

<span class="ev_code_RED">The objective of aerial combat is killing, not fighting.</span>

The Fw190A isn't ever going to win an aerobatics competition. But it's got arguably the best weapons systems fitted to any piston engined fighter in the game.

You've got the MG151/20, which combines excellent ballistics with good hitting power and reasonable range.

You've got the Revi, which is an excellent gunsight.

You've got lots of ammunition, and counters to keep track of it, so that you should never accidently run out at a crucial moment.

And your weapons are placed close to the centre-line of the aeroplane, which means that your firepower is fairly insensitive to convergence.

Finally, this excellent weapons system is attached to an aeroplane with reasonable performance. Which is nice. But probably not quite so important as many people think.

***

The best way to use the Fw190 (especially the A model), is to forget about the aeroplane and concentrate on the guns.

Your objective is to set up a situation whereby your rounds occupy the same coordinates in 4 dimensional space-time as the enemy aircraft. Clearly there are many ways of doing this.

If you are a bad shot, like most pilots, you'll need to be behind the enemy, probably at close range, for several seconds in order to line up and take your shot. You may need to take multiple passes to get the job done.

Therein lies the rub.

Getting behind the enemy is hard work. He knows that most pilots need to be behind him to kill him, so he'll work quite hard to frustrate your attempts to setup the required position and angle. Thus, even if you get behind the enemy, the chances are that it will cost you time and energy, the expenditure of which greatly increase the chances of your becoming an entry on some hot-shot's stats page.

Multiple passes add insult to injury.

It doesn't have to be that way. It takes 1 round in the right place to score a PK. About 10 rounds will de-wing a Spitfire. It rarely takes more than 20 rounds to kill anything.

Given that the Fw-190 is fitted with 6 guns, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate that very little time is required to fire that number of rounds. From this we may derive a lesson.

<span class="ev_code_RED">If your gunnery is accurate, you can kill almost anything with a snapshot.</span>

This has some very important consequences, the most important of which is that <span class="ev_code_yellow">you don't need to turn with your enemy to kill him.</span>

Instead, anticipate his flightpath, and position your aeroplane so that he passes in front of you. Fire as required. Gloat to taste. Proceed to next target.

You don't need to be behind him to score the kill, because all you need is a snapshot. You don't even need to be particularly great with your timing, because you've got bags of ammunition. Open fire half a second early and stop firing half a second late if you need to. You've still got enough ammunition for rather more kills than most pilots will ever score in a sortie.

Stop wasting time trying to out-fly the opposition, and just concentrate on out-shooting them.

It doesn't matter how good the enemy pilot or his aeroplane is if you've already killed him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Genie-
06-15-2006, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:

<span class="ev_code_RED">If your gunnery is accurate, you can kill almost anything with a snapshot.</span>

This has some very important consequences, the most important of which is that <span class="ev_code_yellow">you don't need to turn with your enemy to kill him.</span>


It doesn't matter how good the enemy pilot or his aeroplane is if you've already killed him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

So.... Vipy.. baby.. what happends when you miss him (or even hit him and he keeps on flying) and he turns around on you? And remember you are in FW where you doesnt see sh*peep* in front of you, you cannot climb and you cannot manouvre and you cannot run.

And btw, your statistics as FW ace is found where?

CaptAce
06-16-2006, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:

<span class="ev_code_RED">If your gunnery is accurate, you can kill almost anything with a snapshot.</span>

This has some very important consequences, the most important of which is that <span class="ev_code_yellow">you don't need to turn with your enemy to kill him.</span>


It doesn't matter how good the enemy pilot or his aeroplane is if you've already killed him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

So.... Vipy.. baby.. what happends when you miss him (or even hit him and he keeps on flying) and he turns around on you? And remember you are in FW where you doesnt see sh*peep* in front of you, you cannot climb and you cannot manouvre and you cannot run.

And btw, your statistics as FW ace is found where? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dive and run like hell. You shouldn't have used too much energy on the snapshot, so you should be able to easily break away. If not, you better hope you have friends near by or else you'll be in a heap load of trouble.

And I've flown with Viper many times. He's a great pilot and can rack up a ton of kills in 190's.

WOLFMondo
06-16-2006, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:

<span class="ev_code_RED">If your gunnery is accurate, you can kill almost anything with a snapshot.</span>

This has some very important consequences, the most important of which is that <span class="ev_code_yellow">you don't need to turn with your enemy to kill him.</span>


It doesn't matter how good the enemy pilot or his aeroplane is if you've already killed him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

So.... Vipy.. baby.. what happends when you miss him (or even hit him and he keeps on flying) and he turns around on you? And remember you are in FW where you doesnt see sh*peep* in front of you, you cannot climb and you cannot manouvre and you cannot run.

And btw, your statistics as FW ace is found where? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've flown with Viper. He doesn't need to prove himself to you.

Genie-
06-16-2006, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by CaptAce:
You dive and run like hell. You shouldn't have used too much energy on the snapshot, so you should be able to easily break away. If not, you better hope you have friends near by or else you'll be in a heap load of trouble.


sure.... you dive like hell and he dives with you and you are dead.

You know that , I know that and why are you ppl keep talking about any kind of "tactics"?
In il2 there is no tactics against La5FN. Against it you have to have a very big luck or against you a very bad pilot. Even a moderate good pilot that will use in La5FN a half decent team tactic + a reasonably high alt and you are dead FW ace. At the end it all comes to poor game FM.

Genie-
06-16-2006, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I've flown with Viper. He doesn't need to prove himself to you.

NOW I'm IMPRESSED.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif No link?

Maybe he was flying CzechWar? I have full stats database on my comp. .maybe I can get it out by myself. And then few patches before FW was even a quite decent plane.. but now..

AnaK774
06-16-2006, 03:40 AM
Genie, he is mainly dogfight server visitor,
at least seen him lot around at WC while was
still hanging around there.

He can hold his own http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

whiteladder
06-16-2006, 03:47 AM
So.... Vipy.. baby.. what happends when you miss him (or even hit him and he keeps on flying) and he turns around on you? And remember you are in FW where you doesnt see sh*peep* in front of you, you cannot climb and you cannot manouvre and you cannot run.

And btw, your statistics as FW ace is found where?

You don`t seems to get the point what Viper is say is don`t try to manouvrer, if you miss the target just keep going. Let him turn, don`t be tempted into the area he excels make him come to yours. The chances are if you have screwed up your shot he will have seen the tracer and performed a defensive break into you losing E. You just give youself enough turning room to come back at him. It doesn`t take long to gain an advantage. If you hit him and he keeps flying then time is on your side, because how ever he has been hit, the damage from an FW will have dropped his performance. I won`t pretend that I`m a top fighter jock, but lots of times I have snap shot someone and only scored a few hits, blown through, reversed and watched as they try performed another break only to enter into a spin and crash.

That first part of the engagement is crucial even if you only get a few rounds into them you are starting to get the upper hand.

whiteladder
06-16-2006, 04:03 AM
I add one other thing, not sure if this has been mentioned.

I have my convergence set to 200m, to get the best effect on the target I need to make sure I open fire at this point. A lot of people use the Revi for judging deflection but that is about it. For this convergence I know that the average fighters wing span should touch the 2 gradient just in from the main circle. Doesn`t take long to get the feel for this.

Manu-6S
06-16-2006, 05:34 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5551073454

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Genie-
06-16-2006, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by AnaK774:
Genie, he is mainly dogfight server visitor,
at least seen him lot around at WC while was
still hanging around there.

He can hold his own http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WC? Dogfight server?

Oh.. why didn't you say it so before... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Genie-
06-16-2006, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:

You don`t seems to get the point what Viper is say is don`t try to manouvrer, if you miss the target just keep going.

what part of my post where I say that you can keep flying straight or even dive and after La5FN turns around and start to chase you, you are gonna die very soon, you did not understand?

whiteladder
06-16-2006, 06:03 AM
what part of my post where I say that you can keep flying straight or even dive and after La5FN turns around and start to chase you, you are gonna die very soon


I understood it perfectly, but I didn`t say keep flying striaght. I said gain enough room to turn. Co altitude, co E you have a problem , you don`t have an advantage, the skill is getting an advantage and keeping it.

I think flying the FW190 is fun and if you have enough patience a good fighter, you obviously disagree thats up to you.

anarchy52
06-16-2006, 08:39 AM
For me FW-190 lost it's pazzazz when it lost the initial turn ability at high speed.

The sacred FW-190A FM postulates are:

a) everything is more manuverable then FW-190 including most tactical bombers. Fw-190 does not manuever - it makes course corrections.

b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.

c) weapons are good (theoretically) but their effectivens varies widely depending on the target (B-25, La-5, P-39...). That is of course if you don't use mk108.

d) FW does not climb - it struggles for altitude

e) FW has weird fuel tanks. Very few aircraft in the game can be hit in the fuel tank and lose all their fuel in 90 sec flat. Yak-1 exhibited such behaviour, but was promptly fixed. The probability of getting the fuel leak of death is usually changed every few patches and varies between 0 and 100% chance.

edit I almost forgot - thank you manu
e) FW-190 needs more runway then fully loaded bomber to take off. I almost got killed in a stuka when I throttled up to line up with the runway - being used to FW-190 emergency power to start moving, Stuka loaded with 1000kg of bombs accellerated like a Ferrari. Compare the power/weight of a fully loaded stuka with FW-190...

f) FW is fast

Basically, take away the speed and you have nothing. What everybody is describing is in fact situational advantage (E-advantage, bounce, wingman tactics) which has little to do with the plane itself.

If it wasn't for the control ineffectiveness as low as 450km/h 109 would be far superior choice for LW.

D9 is of course a totally different story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Manu-6S
06-16-2006, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

And you forgot

f) FW needs quite all the runway to take off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
For me FW-190 lost it's pazzazz when it lost the initial turn ability at high speed.

The sacred FW-190A FM postulates are:

a) everything is more manuverable then FW-190 including most tactical bombers. Fw-190 does not manuever - it makes course corrections.

-------------
You is wrong. You say that maybe because you don't fly anything else http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
----------------------------------


b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.

------------------------

again go fly other planes too. You'll find the FW-190 a tough bird

---------------------------------
c) weapons are good (theoretically) but their effectivens varies widely depending on the target (B-25, La-5, P-39...). That is of course if you don't use mk108.

---------------------------------

Lately very few people use Mk-108's on FW's. On 109's as well for that matter. Since the mine shell was introduced the Mg-151/20 is one of the best guns in the game.

--------------------------------------
d) FW does not climb - it struggles for altitude

----------------------------------

The problem here exists and is real at speeds lower then 320km/h. The A/F models FW-190 can't produce the rated power (RPM and ATA) at anything below 320km/h. In my opinion this is the only major problem of the FW-190.
----------------------------------



e) FW has weird fuel tanks. Very few aircraft in the game can be hit in the fuel tank and lose all their fuel in 90 sec flat. Yak-1 exhibited such behaviour, but was promptly fixed. The probability of getting the fuel leak of death is usually changed every few patches and varies between 0 and 100% chance.


-------------------------------------

True. Anoying.But is happening only if hit by shells .50 or larger. and not all the time.

-------------------------------------------


e) FW is fast

Basically, take away the speed and you have nothing. What everybody is describing is in fact situational advantage (E-advantage, bounce, wingman tactics) which has little to do with the plane itself.

If it wasn't for the control ineffectiveness as low as 450km/h 109 would be far superior choice for LW.

D9 is of course a totally different story. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Brain32
06-16-2006, 09:28 AM
a) everything is more manuverable then FW-190 including most tactical bombers. Fw-190 does not manuever - it makes course corrections.

-------------
You is wrong. You say that maybe because you don't fly anything else
No he is apsolutley right, the closest match is P47 at the deck.

b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.

------------------------

again go fly other planes too. You'll find the FW-190 a tough bird
Toughest LW bird, but still far from what one could call though, don't just look at final damage, look how much is needed to disable the FW, put it out of the fight. You can barely compare it with most western planes not to even mention some *cough* wooden wonders *cough*.
And yes PK is ridiculous but I think it's generally a bit overdone for most(Western) planes.

e) FW has weird fuel tanks. Very few aircraft in the game can be hit in the fuel tank and lose all their fuel in 90 sec flat. Yak-1 exhibited such behaviour, but was promptly fixed. The probability of getting the fuel leak of death is usually changed every few patches and varies between 0 and 100% chance.


-------------------------------------

True. Anoying.But is happening only if hit by shells .50 or larger. and not all the time.

My #1 rtb because of damage reason, followed closely by getting shot in the wing(extremely annoying).

My 2c...

HellToupee
06-16-2006, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by anarchy52:
For me FW-190 lost it's pazzazz when it lost the initial turn ability at high speed.

The sacred FW-190A FM postulates are:

a) everything is more manuverable then FW-190 including most tactical bombers. Fw-190 does not manuever - it makes course corrections.

try following a pilot who knows the meaning manoverability at high speed in lets say a full wing spitfire. Fw190 was not a great turner that dosnt mean its not manoverable.



b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.


its probly one of the strongest planes in the game, i put 121 bullets into ones engine and cogpit with a b25 rear gunner against some crazy pilot who seemed to want to cut my tail with his prop, 121 .50s to achive pk engine was still turning as well. All planes receive pks just as random as the next.



c) weapons are good (theoretically) but their effectivens varies widely depending on the target (B-25, La-5, P-39...). That is of course if you don't use mk108.


weapons tested since whining beefed up the mg151 has it the hardest hitting 20mm in game, hell i had my b25 dewinged in one high speed pass from a d9.



d) FW does not climb - it struggles for altitude


vs what vs spitfire 9s and 109s well ofcourse its outclimbed its not even in the same class



e) FW has weird fuel tanks. Very few aircraft in the game can be hit in the fuel tank and lose all their fuel in 90 sec flat. Yak-1 exhibited such behaviour, but was promptly fixed. The probability of getting the fuel leak of death is usually changed every few patches and varies between 0 and 100% chance.


fuel leak of death is ither gone or very rare these lastest patches, i myself have not encounted it, tho i have in a mosquito.



edit I almost forgot - thank you manu
e) FW-190 needs more runway then fully loaded bomber to take off. I almost got killed in a stuka when I throttled up to line up with the runway - being used to FW-190 emergency power to start moving, Stuka loaded with 1000kg of bombs accellerated like a Ferrari. Compare the power/weight of a fully loaded stuka with FW-190...

try 100% prop pitch it needs no more runwany than other fighters like tempest 47 51 etc.


f) FW is fast

Basically, take away the speed and you have nothing. What everybody is describing is in fact situational advantage (E-advantage, bounce, wingman tactics) which has little to do with the plane itself.

what else do you want? other than speed u have firepower, which alone makes even poor fighters effective aka spit Vc, theres roll, ive faced good pilots who knew how to exploit superior roll performance. I dont understand what other attributes u expect it to have for turn and climb it was unremarkable.

Tactics have everything to do with the plane itself, the planes attributes alone determine the tactics, try hit and run in a spitfire Vc vs a4 does not work.



If it wasn't for the control ineffectiveness as low as 450km/h 109 would be far superior choice for LW.


because 190 is manoverable, 109 is not.

269GA-Veltro
06-16-2006, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> a) everything is more manuverable then FW-190 including most tactical bombers. Fw-190 does not manuever - it makes course corrections.

-------------
You is wrong. You say that maybe because you don't fly anything else
No he is apsolutley right, the closest match is P47 at the deck.

b) FW-190 is one of the most voulnerable fighters with the least pilot armour - with possible exception of Japaneese planes. PKs from dead 6 are very common.

------------------------

again go fly other planes too. You'll find the FW-190 a tough bird
Toughest LW bird, but still far from what one could call though, don't just look at final damage, look how much is needed to disable the FW, put it out of the fight. You can barely compare it with most western planes not to even mention some *cough* wooden wonders *cough*.
And yes PK is ridiculous but I think it's generally a bit overdone for most(Western) planes.

e) FW has weird fuel tanks. Very few aircraft in the game can be hit in the fuel tank and lose all their fuel in 90 sec flat. Yak-1 exhibited such behaviour, but was promptly fixed. The probability of getting the fuel leak of death is usually changed every few patches and varies between 0 and 100% chance.


-------------------------------------

True. Anoying.But is happening only if hit by shells .50 or larger. and not all the time.

My #1 rtb because of damage reason, followed closely by getting shot in the wing(extremely annoying).

My 2c... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree, first of all here:

<span class="ev_code_yellow">don't just look at final damage, look how much is needed to disable the FW, put it out of the fight</span>

...you got the point about the FW-190 DM...one shoot and it's gone.

What we have in FB is probably a FS-190, were F = flying and S = stone, but not a FW-190.

My 2C.

HellToupee
06-16-2006, 10:01 AM
How many hits does it take to put any plane out of the fight? Every plane in the game ive flown can be rendered practically unmanoverable to a hit to the wing.

Because if u base judgement on what u see opponents do after u shoot them well ild say 190 seems to fly brand new after receiving 20 hispanos up his tail.

faustnik
06-16-2006, 10:03 AM
I like the version we have now in the sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

It maneuvers well, without maneuvering too well. You can dogfight with even the most maneuverable a/c using your roll rate and high speed climb, if you have some energy advantage. The guns are finally fixed with mine rounds included, and the fuel leak is better.

I'd love to see, but, I realize that Oleg is out of time:

- harsher high speed stall
- better low speed acceleration
- more complex DM (more damage to systems from lighter caliber guns, and less lift loss with a wing hit)
- more torque effects, the Fw190 was a small plane with a lot of power.
- proper ata ratings for the Fw190A4

Kocur_
06-16-2006, 10:27 AM
What pisses me off in Fw-190s is "one small hole in wing = at least 50kmh less". But thats not specific to Fw-190! Mustangs have exactly the same! Probably all planes share it, but it just doesnt hurt t'n'burnrs, that unlike, say Fw-190 or P-51, dont rely on their top speed. IMO one of proofs for the theory of GREAT favouring turn and burners in this game. Just let E fighter pass you, hang your [Spitfire/Yak/La/Bf-109 etc] on the prop, spray and if you hit its wing even once - you will catch him easily soon after if he tries to run flat.

Manu-6S
06-16-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
spray and if you hit its wing even once - you will catch him easily soon after if he tries to run flat.

Or, if you're lucky, you have a PK and can return to homebase (my only KIA in Spitvs109).



Originally posted by Faustnik:
- more torque effects, the Fw190 was a small plane with a lot of power.


I feel 190s have very violent torque when taking off; many planes have more or less torque, but the 190's one is the more difficult to contrast with rudder, so, in a Jabo configuration, I need to block may rear wheel.



Originally posted by HellToupee:
its probly one of the strongest planes in the game, i put 121 bullets into ones engine and cogpit with a b25 rear gunner against some crazy pilot who seemed to want to cut my tail with his prop, 121 .50s to achive pk engine was still turning as well. All planes receive pks just as random as the next.


I agree, the engine is one of the strongest (like in RL) but counting the hits is useless: more than one time I put almost all my cannon munitions in the tail of spit without any damage (only external, no internal: he keep flyng)... BUT the same happened when I was flying Spit and I had a BF on my 6, the poor guy keep firing me (hitting me) but I fly I got only a hole in the wing (ping was ok).

BTW the REAL FW190 took fire very frequently, no t as in the game: I would to burn in my cockpit instead of lose speed because a hit fired for 400m.



I keep play this game only to have fun with my friends, but after the latest patches, for me, it's like dead.

RocketDog
06-16-2006, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
why are you ppl keep talking about any kind of "tactics"?
In il2 there is no tactics against La5FN. Against it you have to have a very big luck or against you a very bad pilot. Even a moderate good pilot that will use in La5FN a half decent team tactic + a reasonably high alt and you are dead FW ace. At the end it all comes to poor game FM.

I don't think it's a poor game FM. I think it pretty much reflects the real-life situation. By the end of the war the Fw-190 was being used as much as a fighter bomber as a fighter. Up against a dedicated air-superiority fighter like the La-5FN then it's obviously going to get stuffed.

Of course, in real life, Fw-190s had some advantages in terms of pilot training that we don't have in Il-2. But if you take an A-series Fw up against a featherweight Russian dogfighter in a 1 vs 1 in good visibility then you don't have much chance. Which is as it should be.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

Kocur_
06-16-2006, 12:01 PM
Of course, in real life, Fw-190s had some advantages in terms of pilot training that we don't have in Il-2. But if you take an A-series Fw up against a featherweight Russian dogfighter in a 1 vs 1 in good visibility then you don't have much chance. Which is as it should be.

Problem is that in real life La-5FNs werent able to catch Fw-190s... Oleg's La-5FN with 590kmh @ SL is just Oleg's fantasy, which btw. wasnt 'materialised' until Fw-190A56 1.65ATA was included.
Sooo who has link to that Rechlin La-5FN tests... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
06-16-2006, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Problem is that in real life La-5FNs werent able to catch Fw-190s...


Factor in, also, the fact that only a few small mg strikes on the FW and it loses a good amount of its speed and all you need to do (in equal 'E' terms at least) is plink it a few times then stalk it as a lion would a wounded antelope. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


TB

Viper2005_
06-16-2006, 12:30 PM
This thread has moved considerably sice last night. A few points spring to mind.

1) The short answer to Genie's initial question is that if you missed, you're not good enough.

2) I am not putting myself forward as an ace pilot. I am simply putting forward a different way of looking at the aeroplane/weapons system. I try to practice what I preach, but am by no means perfect.

3) I am not going to play the stats game; it's a waste of time unless you know the context.

4) As for online wars etc. at some point I will get around to joining a squad and doing all that stuff. But why rush?

5) Thanks for the support guys.

I suppose what I'm trying to say about the Fw190A is that since you can kill almost anything in the sky with an accurate snapshot of very short duration (1/4 second or less), any time the enemy passes in front of your nose at a range inside about 500 m he presents you with an opportunity to end the fight. All you've got to do is take it.

Kill him at the merge, and his superior aeroplane or stick & rudder skills mean nothing.

If you need to be on your enemy's tail at 100 m in order to put rounds down then often you'll be spending huge amounts of time and energy to buy that easy shot.

If you can make do with more difficult shots, you'll end up spending much less time and energy "buying" them, and therefore will tend to be safer since you'll be faster, and have much better SA. than those guys who spend 5 minutes in a furball for every kill they score.

Oh, and don't forget that it's a mean jabo with an SC500!

Genie-
06-16-2006, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
1) The short answer to Genie's initial question is that if you missed, you're not good enough.


...yawn... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif




2)... I try to practice what I preach, but am by no means perfect.


nooo.. dont be so hard on yourself.. I really belive that in given circumstances (dogfight server) you are a really good FW190 ace!

Go get them Tiger!



3) I am not going to play the stats game; it's a
waste of time unless you know the context.


sure...



4) As for online wars etc. at some point I will get around to joining a squad and doing all that stuff. But why rush?


that is true, just watch for catch 22
you can't learn if you havent been there.. ya know...



5) Thanks for the support guys.


takes one to know one



<cut>... All you've got to do is take it.


weren't you speaking of some "puting it in the right context" (hint - dogserver vs. virtual war) thingie?



Kill him at the merge, and his superior aeroplane or stick & rudder skills mean nothing.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif oh I have just forgot that I do not have such superior shooting skills as you... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


So.. no statistics?

So much buuuZzZzZziiinngggg around and no honey to be found...

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by Genie-:





LMAO Genie

What makes you think that online wars are the heavens and only superman and his kind fly there. Is the same bloody game, if you suck in online wars you'll get spanked on any server. That's the fact.
Same planes,same physics, same game.

The only difference is that some times people fly more organized.
It makes no difference in how the FW-190 flies against the LA-5/FN. Dogfight server or not.

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 02:43 PM
Ah btw.

Statistics are for geeks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

F6_Ace
06-16-2006, 02:52 PM
Same planes,same physics, same game

Not quite.

if(vvs()==TRUE)
{
UseThesePhysics(UNREAL);
}
else
{
UseThesePhysics(REAL);
}

FW190 has been porked for some time. It was too good, relatively speaking, so it had to be dealt with. The only question is...when will Oleg decide that his stock of VVS wonders are completely overmodelled and redress the balance?

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Same planes,same physics, same game

Not quite.

if(vvs()==TRUE)
{
UseThesePhysics(UNREAL);
}
else
{
UseThesePhysics(REAL);
}

FW190 has been porked for some time. It was too good, relatively speaking, so it had to be dealt with. The only question is...when will Oleg decide that his stock of VVS wonders are completely overmodelled and redress the balance? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just comparing DF servers with online wars. Not LA5 vs FW. The fw-190 is the same DF server or not.

F6_Ace
06-16-2006, 03:02 PM
Yes, I know - DF servers ARE cobblers. At least online wars realise what the faults are and make amends. DF mission authors conveniently forget such errors.

But, the point of my post was....do you really think that *anything* in this game can be considered remotely realistic when you have Oleg's version of events wrt Russian aircraft?

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 03:14 PM
There's not even one plane that we can say it behaves exactly how we read about it in books.
That's a fact. If you fly them by the flight manual, or by what you read about them you'll die a gazillion times. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Most planes are modeled by how Oleg thinks they should fly, regardless the tests, books and data.


But we can't say FW-190 is completely useless can we?

Genie-
06-16-2006, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<cut>
...Dogfight server or not.


seems that situation awernes is not your stronger point...



But we can't say FW-190 is completely useless can we?


it serves its purpose.. making VVS aces.

Jaws2002
06-16-2006, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Genie-:

seems that situation awernes is not your stronger point...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But we can't say FW-190 is completely useless can we?


it serves its purpose.. making VVS aces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you just come in HL and show me your Uber SA and Foke Wulf abilities.

I suck but I can still shoot planes down with FW-190 once in a while.

WWMaxGunz
06-16-2006, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
I suppose what I'm trying to say about the Fw190A is that since you can kill almost anything in the sky with an accurate snapshot of very short duration (1/4 second or less), any time the enemy passes in front of your nose at a range inside about 500 m he presents you with an opportunity to end the fight. All you've got to do is take it.

Kill him at the merge, and his superior aeroplane or stick & rudder skills mean nothing.

If you need to be on your enemy's tail at 100 m in order to put rounds down then often you'll be spending huge amounts of time and energy to buy that easy shot.

If you can make do with more difficult shots, you'll end up spending much less time and energy "buying" them, and therefore will tend to be safer since you'll be faster, and have much better SA. than those guys who spend 5 minutes in a furball for every kill they score.

Oh, and don't forget that it's a mean jabo with an SC500!

Exactly to the point! How much do you have to turn with the target when you're coming in
with deflection and shooting from 400m down to 300m? You sure as sh__ don't have to match
his angle. Just take the shot, roll a bit and exit behind his tail and at a high angle to
his flight path then either rise or keep going. Exit is an integral part of the tactic for
every pass.

BTW Viper, when you do shop for a club come check out www.wingwalkers.org (http://www.wingwalkers.org) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
We do have more than a couple real pilots, one still active Navy, one who flew F-16's and
maybe you can discuss your nick with him (hehehe), one who is a commercial pilot evaluator
and insanely hard just to keep up with online, another retired Navy, the list is longer.
We have a lot of experience and tend to be older, the WW's have been continuously online
since 1992. And... I like yer posts and attitude.

WWMG

LStarosta
06-16-2006, 08:54 PM
Wow talk about easier said than done...

HellToupee
06-16-2006, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Manu-6S:
I agree, the engine is one of the strongest (like in RL) but counting the hits is useless: more than one time I put almost all my cannon munitions in the tail of spit without any damage (only external, no internal: he keep flyng)... BUT the same happened when I was flying Spit and I had a BF on my 6, the poor guy keep firing me (hitting me) but I fly I got only a hole in the wing (ping was ok).


i was using the games hit tracking it can tell u how many air hits u get, since well it was my first attacker i knew all hits were on him.

HellToupee
06-16-2006, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Problem is that in real life La-5FNs werent able to catch Fw-190s...

my understanding is low level when fn was introduced was faster than 190 and 109 fighters.

MB80
06-17-2006, 12:02 AM
Some of you really need Mk108 training, it's the easiest way to get kills with the late FW190s. One hit one kill.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Genie-
06-17-2006, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Just take the shot, roll a bit and exit behind his tail and at a high angle to
his flight path then either rise or keep going. Exit is an integral part of the tactic for
every pass.

WWMG

if FW? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

that first part is true.. but the extend part is not working in Oleg's World.

Genie-
06-17-2006, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:

Why don't you just come in HL and show me your Uber SA and Foke Wulf abilities.

I suck but I can still shoot planes down with FW-190 once in a while.

you still don't get it

HellToupee
06-17-2006, 02:55 AM
if u cant fly the plane its the games fault yep

Vrabac
06-17-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
I like the version we have now in the sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

It maneuvers well, without maneuvering too well. You can dogfight with even the most maneuverable a/c using your roll rate and high speed climb, if you have some energy advantage. The guns are finally fixed with mine rounds included, and the fuel leak is better.

I must admit I'm really puzzled by such statements. FW maneuverable... It is NOT. I don't know what experience you have, where, agaisnt what planes and what pilots, but in my experience fighting Spits and La5s 190 has no (take it literally, NO) advantage in elevators at hight speed and moderate to small advantage in roll. Most it can do defesnively against Spit is something like split S at hight speed and use the fact it's considerably faster to get away while Spit is rolling trying to follow. Anything else is pure fantasy, like actually being able to outmaneuver someone meaning turning the tables on him. Against La5F and stronger all you can do is count on divine intervention (also known as another 190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) to save you once you get one on your 6. But that means there are 2 190s on 1 La5, and that means further discussion regarding plane's quality is pointless.

Maybe you guys fly on dog servers with different type of clients. I once managed to follow a SpitIXe with 190F8 in a turn for a long time at low speed, and actually managed to get my gunsight in front of his nose after a while and kill him. Tell me was it my merit or his fault? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So maybe you're encountering such people.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between western and eastern front. While on the west 190 is rather useful (has comparable maneuvering to most planes except Spit, and it can escape Spit with a bit of luck and drag and bag him easily - not counting the 25lbs wunderwaffe do-it-all megaplane- also 20mm seem to be far more effective in the west), in eastern front it's simply useless against good pilots. 1943 onwards most red planes can catch up (let's face it, 90% people will chose La5F/FN over Jak, just as 90% chose SpitIX over Mustang and Thunderbolt) and everything else is simply too obvious. If you think you are able to outmaneuver La5F/FN on any speed, you are either hallucinating or are flying against greatly inferior pilots than you yourself are.

You should try using your "manuevering" when fighting some Russian squads flying La5s or Cobras and not typical dog server bunch that are turnfighting on the deck with someone else, than you'll see what I'm talking about.

Viper2005_
06-17-2006, 05:23 PM
I do most of my flying on the western front, so I might be wrong, but IIRC most of the Russian aeroplanes in the sim have rather lower VNEs than the Fw190, which means that you can make life very uncomfortable for them by putting a few knots on the clock and loading up. The 190 isn't a great turner, but it'll out turn an La5 by a large margin if has lost control or flying surfaces after exceeding VNE...

Good flying never killed anybody, but that doesn't mean that you can't invite your enemy to kill himself with bad flying...

If the enemy doesn't accept your invitation the chances are that they've lost their position as a result, allowing you to extend.

In addition, IIRC most Russian aeroplanes suffer at high altitude. The Fw190 is quite happy at high altitude if flown gently.

Dictate the terms of the fight and you're in a much stronger position. If the enemy won't fight high, try to catch him between supercharger gear changes.

Vrabac
06-17-2006, 06:07 PM
Uf... If he was so stupid to follow you so long in a dive to lose his control surfaces, than it's rather pointless to talk on, since we are obviously talking about a very bad pilot or simply about someone who knows very little.

Above 5k 190 should be somewhat faster, but since each and every evasion 190 can do (split S, dive) is based on losing alt, that won't matter for long.

If you dive away and he doesn't follow you immidiately, it means he's smart and he's waiting for you to level off so he can in turn dive on you (not after you), so you are basically dead. La5FN is faster than A5/6 and as fast as A8 on low alt, plus it accelerates better. Meaning again you are dead. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In short you guys should try eastern front 1943 on against coordinated opponent. It's one thing to shoot down occasional Spit low and slow we see so often in dog servers and something completly different to fight a same number of La5s that are on comms just as you are, that are smart just as you are, that know their plane just as you do, that act in coordinated manner, and that aren't somewhere below you dogfighting someone else at 250 kmh on the deck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ratsack
06-17-2006, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Vrabac:
In short you guys should try ...

No, some of you guys who are complaining that the Fw190A can't fight for sh1t should actually try some of the stuff that's been suggested here. And please don't come back with the line that these things don't work, because they do. If they're not working for you it's because:

1. it was the wrong move for the situation;
2. you did it incorrectly;
3. the situation was so poor it couldn't be retrieved except by a miracle;
4. you don't know the enemy planes well enough; or
5. you didn't know you own plane well enough.

and that's before we start considering pilot skill or state of practice. It's also before we even enter into the idea of WHY you're in that situation in the first place. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Regarding your comments about the La5F, I think you're overstating it by quite a bit there. I find the La5F very easy meat compared to the FN. There's quite a difference between the two, where I'd say there's next to bugger all between the La5 and the La5F.

As I said a couple of pages ago, I've played regularly on low-ping servers where the reds are on coms and flying La7s and Spits. They can be taken, but it requires strategy. By that, I don't mean 'I'm gonna go in there and use my magic roll rate to confuse them, then end game with my Jedi blah blah blah'. No. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

By strategy, I mean working out where the bastages want to get to, how they're likely to try to get there, and at what altitude, and where they'll be most vulnerable along the way and then plotting your own course to HUNT them. With advantage: indeed, as many advantages as you can fit in your cockpit.

You'll have noted that this is not really dogfighting. You'd be right, too. Dog fighting is the last refuge of the incompetent. It is what n00bs do while they're waiting to die.

Some people in this thread, including myself, have suggested some ways to get out of tight situations and even, perhaps turn the tables. It can be done, but it's not easy. It's definitely not a certain outcome that you'll win. Cricket players in Australia call that sort of thing 'a percentage shot'. It's the something you might have to do from time to time, but you're a stupid drop kick if you try to build your entire career on that sort of thing.

The bottom line, in ANY fighter is:

Don't dogfight. Hunt.

Jaws2002
06-17-2006, 08:22 PM
Actually they are right. When we are talking about LA-5FN, La-7, and maybe two three other planes.
The first two suffer from a little optimistic FM. This is known and clear. FW-190A, fighting this planes, in a coordonated fight of simmilar high trained pilots is in deep doo-doo. Regardless of the altitude you fight. Much more so at low alt since you can't dive away.Is just not the plane to beat this monsters in an equal fight.

This tread is about FW-190 tactics, and you can't declare the aircraft useless because it can't fight the Lame-5FN/7.
The 190's does ok against many other planes it fought or didn't meet in combat during WW2.

It can sure fight American aircraft. It can kill Spits, even the late ones in certain conditions.

You can't just call a plane useless if it can't beat the most uber plane in the game. Is just not fair.

I really respect, and in the same time feel sorry feel sorry, for the guys that fly against La-5FN's and La-7's day after day in FW-190 A.

I don't know what procentage of the Russian AF in 1943-1945 was LA-5fn and La-7. I'm sure there were a lot of Yaks Il-2's and other planes flying on easter front.


This game has two hundred aircraft. There are many of them that can be trashed by the 190's.

Vrabac
06-17-2006, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Actually they are right. When we are talking about LA-5FN, La-7, and maybe two three other planes.

(...)

This game has two hundred aircraft. There are many of them that can be trashed by the 190's.

You are right. But the thing is, how many planes out of those 200 you meet in your average online fight? You know the answer. You'll meet some spits, than some other spits and some more spits. And yes, 190 has one advantage over spit, and by a very good pilot it can be used often very well. By average pilot... I guess he'll just take 109 in the end. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On eastern front thigs are similar. After 1943 you'll see a lot of La5Fs and FNs. Which are very similar btw, no matter what Ratsack says http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Anton will be put into impossible situation against a plane that is better in everything, in some things slightly in others greatly. Jak can be fought more easily because of speed, but it still requires superior teamwork than that of jak team.

But essentially you are right. IMHO it's not the problem in 190s modelling but in some other aircrafts' (like you said yourself). Problem is that those very planes are the ones that are most popular among red online pilots. And my point is that 190 doesn't do as well as some are trying to say (for example saying 190 is meneuverable). It's more often opponent's fault than 190 pilot's merit that he makes a kill, just as Viper basically said. And that doesn't show 190's qualities as a plane, but says about pilot quality.

As for Ratsack's comment:


By strategy, I mean working out where the bastages want to get to, how they're likely to try to get there, and at what altitude, and where they'll be most vulnerable along the way and then plotting your own course to HUNT them. With advantage: indeed, as many advantages as you can fit in your cockpit.

and than


The bottom line, in ANY fighter is:

Don't dogfight. Hunt.

What is your point than? So if I want to be succesful in 190 your advice is to know everything about my opponent, his position, altitude, course, intentions, have every sort of advantage... and than you say yourself that it's the principle for any fighter. So what are you trying to say? What makes 190 good if it needs all of that to win, moreover what makes it special if the same principle works for any other plane? Sure, I would like to have altitude and surprise every time... Wouldn't that be a perfect world? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I guess any plane, no matter how ****, would do quite well in such situations, don't you?

Also, I have solid experience with 190, quite a lot of sorties, quite a lot of deaths, and somewhat more kills. So I'm not just whining or saying things because I can't do something or because I don't know, I'm sying what I believe are facts, and what I learned out of that experience.

And it's a fact 190 actually needs all of this that Ratsack talked about (yes, he's also essentially right, altough not in a way he thinks he is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) simply because it has no choice since most of it's adversaries will eat it alive otherwise. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ratsack
06-17-2006, 09:47 PM
I disagree with you that the Fw190A is not maneuverable. At high speeds it has far better elevator control than most other planes in the sim. I€m not just talking about the heavy elevators of the 109, but also the over-sensitive elevators of some Allied types, too.

In addition, the 190€s rate of roll, while too slow at high speed, is still far better than most of its opponents. This means that you can reverse on your opponent far quicker than they can.

While the first attribute helps you set up accurate shooting for the bounce, when you combine it with the second, it allows you to set up the gun solution for the snap shot when you€re more fully committed.


cheers,
Ratsack

Genie-
06-18-2006, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Don't dogfight. Hunt.

ah someone was reading too much of Galland..

try Cloisterman view of things..

"I was there crunched in my cockpit, ****ted out of fear.."

that is more realistic view of things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by Ratsack:
I disagree with you that the Fw190A is not maneuverable. At high speeds it has far better elevator control than most other planes in the sim.


sure and after 2 high speed maneuvers you find yourself suddenly on low speed. C'mon we can also quote FW190 FAQ here from real life, and we are not talking about it now.

Ratsack
06-18-2006, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
Don't dogfight. Hunt.

ah someone was reading too much of Galland.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Genius, the analogy with hunting is a common one. Boelcke noted it while he was still flying recon planes in 1915. Johnnie Johnson noted the same thing. But in fact, when I wrote that I was thinking of Hartman€s comment that dogfighting was a waste of time. Galland and Moelders also thought flying fighters was like hunting. Go read a few books yourself and then take your pick.

While we€re about it, it€s not just a common analogy, it€s a good one, too. If you€re hunting, you stalk your prey with a view getting an advantage, then take the shot. If you blow the shot, you don€t go chasing through the woods after the bloody thing, hollering at the top of your lungs (i.e., dogfighting). The analogy is even better if we€re talking about big game hunting, and best of all if it€s the latter at very short range€¦




Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
I disagree with you that the Fw190A is not maneuverable. At high speeds it has far better elevator control than most other planes in the sim.


sure and after 2 high speed maneuvers you find yourself suddenly on low speed. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, so that's the problem. Well, you post a track of you performing two high-speed combat moves where you come out at low speed, and I€ll tell you exactly what you€re doing wrong. Then we might start getting somewhere. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

Brain32
06-18-2006, 02:51 AM
By strategy, I mean working out where the bastages want to get to, how they're likely to try to get there, and at what altitude, and where they'll be most vulnerable along the way and then plotting your own course to HUNT them. With advantage: indeed, as many advantages as you can fit in your cockpit.
LOL isn't that the way all planes should be used and are most effective, also what if your opponents are doing the same? Look all you don't understand one thing, sure FW190 is a nasty MF on a standard DF situation where you have a bunch of people turning and burning at like 500-1000m at stall speeds and then there's a few smart guys that climb above the furball and BnZ the cr@p out of it, he11 I do that in all planes. What we talk about is meeting your enemy at equal terms, for example co-alt with a Spit even if you have E-advantage by the means of speed means nothing but atleast you can run away, against La5FN for example you are reduced to desperate moves because it can catch you.

I disagree with you that the Fw190A is not maneuverable. At high speeds it has far better elevator control than most other planes in the sim. I€m not just talking about the heavy elevators of the 109, but also the over-sensitive elevators of some Allied types, too.

In addition, the 190€s rate of roll, while too slow at high speed, is still far better than most of its opponents. This means that you can reverse on your opponent far quicker than they can.
OK let's just take one example from Western front(my current theather of operation), P51 can outroll and has much better elevator authority than a FW190, as for other planes and elev authority; Tempest,Spitfire,P47 all can match the FW190, Tempest being really close with roll rate at high speeds, also when you pull out the whole ***in' plane shakes like it's going to disintergrate even at small deflection angles, and there is the stall if you pull out hard and Antons loose quite some speed on a pull out, compare it with other types and say again FW190 is manouverable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Remember the you can follow 90 degrees in a turn routine? BS 45 at most after that you better zoom up(or dive down) because you're going to "fall of the sky" if you pursue that manouver. I'm sorry guys, I love the FW, I fly it often and I'm quite sucessfull in it but I can't agree with most of you, manouverbility is mediocre at best, dive and zoom advantage is non existent and the front view with ballistic characteristics of guns mounted makes shooting a nightmare(literary blind).

Genie-
06-18-2006, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:

Actually, Genius, the analogy with hunting is a common one.



poor fellow.. you didn't even catch my name...

Brain32 give an excelent answer on your Tha Hunt theory. As I said, I don't care about RL tactics here, we are playing a game here.





Ah, so that's the problem. Well, you post a track of you performing two high-speed combat moves where you come out at low speed, and I€ll tell you exactly what you€re doing wrong. Then we might start getting somewhere. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
Ratsack

yawn.. brain32 also give a great answer.. I will not repeat something similar..

Manu-6S
06-18-2006, 05:10 AM
Totally agree with Brain32.

I fly FW190 the same way I fly all the other planes, I gain altitude the fastest way possible and I search to keep energy; Bf, FW, Spit, Zero (!), I don't care but I still hate the poor visual from above.

But then I try to do the most simple manouvres with FW I feel like I'm not in a plane.

It's like all the planes in the game are "bicycles" and the FW is a "monocycle"; you can ride your bicycle with one wheel, but you can't ride a monocycle in different way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

And some planes seem "tricycles" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

The only thing I like of FW is the fire power, the rest is useless.

My wish is on SoW -> Afrika.

Bye.

HellToupee
06-18-2006, 05:33 AM
the 190 is a manoverable plane, ive flown against good pilots in it who seemed like ufos, its just most people are very bad at flying it the ones that use landing flaps in a stall fight and complain that 190 isnt manoverable when a spit out turns them. The ones who complain about its diving ability, hell i should be complaining those things leave my tempest in the dust in a dive no matter what tricks i employ prop pitch etc.

One 190 pilot truely belived that in real life 190s outturned spitfire Vs because it was stated as more manoverable.

Brain32
06-18-2006, 06:08 AM
hell i should be complaining those things leave my tempest in the dust in a dive no matter what tricks i employ prop pitch etc.
After 600+ sorties on the same server and being amongst top Tempest scorers on that same server I can tell you that you are doing something wrong or that FW's that "leave you in the dust" start the dive with huge speed advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif 60% prop pitch rads closed and keep an eye on the side-slip indicator no FW will run away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Then again are you sure you didn't dive with flaps in a landing position?

Ratsack
06-18-2006, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:

Actually, Genius, the analogy with hunting is a common one.



poor fellow.. you didn't even catch my name...

Brain32 give an excelent answer on your Tha Hunt theory. As I said, I don't care about RL tactics here, we are playing a game here.





Ah, so that's the problem. Well, you post a track of you performing two high-speed combat moves where you come out at low speed, and I€ll tell you exactly what you€re doing wrong. Then we might start getting somewhere. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
Ratsack

yawn.. brain32 also give a great answer.. I will not repeat something similar.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, you've got nothing. Run along now.

cheers,
Ratsack

PS - I look forward to your track.

HellToupee
06-18-2006, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> hell i should be complaining those things leave my tempest in the dust in a dive no matter what tricks i employ prop pitch etc.
After 600+ sorties on the same server and being amongst top Tempest scorers on that same server I can tell you that you are doing something wrong or that FW's that "leave you in the dust" start the dive with huge speed advantage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif 60% prop pitch rads closed and keep an eye on the side-slip indicator no FW will run away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Then again are you sure you didn't dive with flaps in a landing position? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no i do catch them but they will always initially pull away both the d9 and the anton, when catching them i usually am rads closed pitch 50% in dive trimmed out. Looking at the stats page on this server u mention well it seems im doing better than you so i cant be doing something wrong :P

alert_1
06-18-2006, 06:15 AM
As for La5Fn, dont forget that in the sim we have '44 model, real La5FN '43 overheated qucikly (only 2min boost available) and Fw190A4 }1.42ata], A5/A6 with Notleistung were faster in long run in every alt...

Vrabac
06-18-2006, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by alert_1:
As for La5Fn, dont forget that in the sim we have '44 model, real La5FN '43 overheated qucikly (only 2min boost available) and Fw190A4 }1.42ata], A5/A6 with Notleistung were faster in long run in every alt...

Well what we have in game is what counts. In game FNs are faster than A5/6 on low and medium alt, and I already said all defensive maneuvers 190 can do are based on losing alt so...

Helltoupee, I'm sure you've seen some great pilots do great things with 190. I saw great pilots do great things with all the planes in the game. Let's write about P11 and how it's a great piece of machinery, because there was this guy who this and that and shot me down (and if he shot me down than he must really be uber). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also, I'm really sad for you since they initially gain distance, and only later you catch up. It must be really frustrating. They dive and you follow and you don't catch up right away, but somewhat later. Really what a great diver this 190 is, it leaves you in the dust, altough for only a short time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Talking about that server's stats, I'm doing better than you. But what do I know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HellToupee
06-18-2006, 10:28 PM
yes well im flying a tempest u see, this plane was rated to dive better than 47 at lower alts.


Let's write about P11 and how it's a great piece of machinery,

not even the best pilot flying the p11 should have a chance of shooting you, if u get shot down by a p11 well then thats just really dam funny.


Really what a great diver this 190 is

yes flying probly the fastest low level allied plane behind the mustang III i think it does demonstrate the advantage of 190 in dive.

Viper2005_
06-18-2006, 11:07 PM
HellToupee, a few points;

1) I'm not convinced by the Tempest in game. It seems rather too slow to me. It also has a nasty stall. Why is it that the Fw190 which was widely reported to stall without warning in the clean configuration gives plenty of warning with buffet etc., whilst the Tempest seems extremely temperamental?

Absolute top speed seems ok, but of course it can't cruise properly, which means that it's actually too slow in game. I can't comment upon the handling beyond what I've said about the stall.

2) P.11 should be easy meat for any "modern" aeroplane, but there are several fighters in the game whose pilots would do well to treat it with respect!

3) There are dives and there are dives. Get the angle wrong and even a 67"Hg P-51D will catch an A9. In my limited experience the Mustang III and P-51D dive very well, but (like the Tempest, though to a lesser degree) tend to bleed energy very quickly if not flown correctly.

By "correctly", I mean optimised trim (especially in yaw) and carefully controlled alpha. Pull (or push) just slightly too hard and you can lose your advantage. Plus of course a closed radiator. In my experience, most aeroplanes seem to like a reduced "prop pitch" setting in dives faster than their maximum level flight TAS (think in terms of the top right-hand corner of the speed graph in IL2C).

As ever, it's a fine balance, and pilot skill can often tip it in the opposite direction.

HellToupee
06-18-2006, 11:14 PM
it may seem rather slow but it can go quite fast, crusing matters little when u are the attacker.

By dives i mean 90 - 60 deg dives my victims roll over into, my perfectly trimmed out bird used all the tricks to get the most out of the dive they will always pull away initially.

Which is one of the things i laugh about when i see a 190 pilot claiming a spitfire V outdives him.

WOLFMondo
06-19-2006, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
HellToupee, a few points;

1) I'm not convinced by the Tempest in game. It seems rather too slow to me. It also has a nasty stall. Why is it that the Fw190 which was widely reported to stall without warning in the clean configuration gives plenty of warning with buffet etc., whilst the Tempest seems extremely temperamental?

The Tempest and Fw190 should both have a nasty stall. The Tempests stall gives no warning IRL. But yeah, I think the Tempest has the P47 stigma from the Russian programmers when they made the original P47. Maybe an 11lbs boosted Tempest will give us the Tempest we've read about, well, it would be the Tempest we've read about.

Manu-6S
06-19-2006, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
HellToupee, a few points;

1) I'm not convinced by the Tempest in game. It seems rather too slow to me. It also has a nasty stall. Why is it that the Fw190 which was widely reported to stall without warning in the clean configuration gives plenty of warning with buffet etc., whilst the Tempest seems extremely temperamental?

The Tempest and Fw190 should both have a nasty stall. The Tempests stall gives no warning IRL. But yeah, I think the Tempest has the P47 stigma from the Russian programmers when they made the original P47. Maybe an 11lbs boosted Tempest will give us the Tempest we've read about, well, it would be the Tempest we've read about. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simply we can't take seriously the planes added with the latest patches; Tempests, Macchis, Mosquitos are all "strange" ( => bugged?).

WOLFMondo
06-19-2006, 05:44 AM
Yeah, there be some very wrong things with the Tempest. Its one plane that simply cannot be flown by the manual.

Manu-6S
06-19-2006, 06:34 AM
I (we) really don't need more planes in this sim (but I'm curious about the Ta152C http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif, the new uber?); we only need a review of all the FMs... a lot of players are gone because the instability of the game's FMs.

I know it can be a long work, but if Maddox leaves it to unbiased betatesters teaching them "how" the FM is built...

Yesterday I fly FW190A6 the "right" way claiming some kills without problems in Spitvs109 (really hystorical server (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) but why didn't it give my kill points? ); It's easy while you fly 5000m and everybody are under you.

But I still don't feel it like a plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Genie-
06-19-2006, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
PS - I look forward to your track.

sure, after I see your online statistics FW ace

Ratsack
06-20-2006, 12:31 AM
Brain,

Since you were the last to make an intelligent comment on the subject, I€ll address my comments to you.



Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> By strategy, I mean working out where the bastages want to get to, how they're likely to try to get there, and at what altitude, and where they'll be most vulnerable along the way and then plotting your own course to HUNT them. With advantage: indeed, as many advantages as you can fit in your cockpit.
LOL isn't that the way all planes should be used and are most effective€¦ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. That€s my point.


Originally posted by Brain32:
€¦ sure FW190 is a nasty MF on a standard DF situation where you have a bunch of people turning and burning at like 500-1000m at stall speeds and then there's a few smart guys that climb above the furball and BnZ the cr@p out of it €¦


Yes, it most certainly can. It can do a bit more, too.


Originally posted by Brain32:
What we talk about is meeting your enemy at equal terms, for example co-alt with a Spit even if you have E-advantage by the means of speed means nothing but at least you can run away, against La5FN for example you are reduced to desperate moves because it can catch you.


Certainly some very aggressive and unpredictable maneuvering is in order, but I don€t think desperation is automatically called for.


Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I disagree with you that the Fw190A is not maneuverable. At high speeds it has far better elevator control than most other planes in the sim. I€m not just talking about the heavy elevators of the 109, but also the over-sensitive elevators of some Allied types, too.

In addition, the 190€s rate of roll, while too slow at high speed, is still far better than most of its opponents. This means that you can reverse on your opponent far quicker than they can.


OK let's just take one example from Western front(my current theather of operation), P51 can outroll and has much better elevator authority than a FW190
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The P-51€s much more sensitive elevators are a disadvantage in this sim (in reality they were heavier, anyway). The plane bucks quite badly at high speed if you use any but the smallest inputs, and has stall characteristics that are worse than the Fw190€s. I said above that by €˜better€ I didn€t necessarily mean €˜most sensitive€, and the P-51€s elevators are an excellent example of this. As for the roll, you€re correct, the Fw190 doesn€t enjoy its historical advantage in roll, but in most other respects the P-51 in the game is a helpless puppy unless there€s an excellent pilot at the controls. I find the Fw190 handles like a formula one by comparison.


Originally posted by Brain32:
€¦as for other planes and elev authority; Tempest,Spitfire,P47 all can match the FW190€¦


I agree the Tempest is in the same class for elevator response, but it doesn€t translate into turning ability at all speeds. The Spit is too sensitive, particularly at high speeds. This presents no wing shedding problems (as in the Mustang), and no serious energy bleeding issues either, but it makes aiming at high speed problematic unless the plane is unloaded. While the P-47 retains good control authority at all speeds, it€s also a complete tank at all speeds unless you€re above 6,000 m. It is not vaguely in the same class as the Fw190. Unless the P-47 has a very big energy advantage, I consider it one of the easier kills in the game, especially since the Fw190 can out run it at nearly all altitudes below 6,000 m. How many times have you caught P-47D (1944)s trying to escape by diving and extending?



Originally posted by Brain32:
€¦Tempest being really close with roll rate at high speeds€¦


But again, €˜really close€ in roll rate, in a plane that is nearly always out of trim, wanting to overheat, and significantly slower than it should be, and can not out-turn you does not translate into a package that delivers a useable advantage. With the exception of the overheat, this description fits the P-51 and P-47, too. As far as dogfighting is concerned, the Tempest is at a huge disadvantage in situational awareness, simply because of that rear view. Gawd!


Originally posted by Brain32:
€¦also when you pull out the whole ***in' plane shakes like it's going to disintergrate even at small deflection angles, and there is the stall if you pull out hard and Antons loose quite some speed on a pull out€¦


Yes, it shakes, but the onset of the shake is well inside the good maneuvering envelope. A little buffet in the 190 does not mean you€re bleeding E. When the shaking gets heavier, that€s when you€ve got to come to Jesus. Unlike the P-51, the Fw190 gives you plenty of stall warning. Perhaps a bit more than it should.




Originally posted by Brain32:
€¦compare it with other types and say again FW190 is manouverable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Yes, it€s maneuverable. Out of the four planes you mentioned above, the only one that presents a threat in the close in engagement is the Spit. The Tempest, P-51 and P-47 are sheep before the Focke-Wulf.

This brings us back to Helltoupee€s point that you shouldn€t condemn the plane just because it doesn€t have all the answers, or even all the answers to a couple of optimistically modeled types. I€m referring here to the La5FN, La7 and Spit IX 25lb.


Originally posted by Brain32:
Remember the you can follow 90 degrees in a turn routine? BS 45 at most after that you better zoom up(or dive down) because you're going to "fall of the sky" if you pursue that manouver. I'm sorry guys, I love the FW, I fly it often and I'm quite sucessfull in it but I can't agree with most of you, manouverbility is mediocre at best, dive and zoom advantage is non existent and the front view with ballistic characteristics of guns mounted makes shooting a nightmare(literary blind).

I think we might just have to disagree on that last lot.

Cheers,
Ratsack

Brain32
06-20-2006, 07:42 AM
The Tempest, P-51 and P-47 are sheep before the Focke-Wulf.
Well OK, I respect everybody's opinion, but I have to make some comments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
First, P51's, Tempest's, elevator, yes it's twitchy BUT if you trim it properly it's a dream especially at high speed(9-12 clicks nose down for P51, 6-9 clicks for Tempest those are my personal settings). Both Tempest and P51 outturn, outclimb(Tempest only) and can match in speed all FW190A's, and can outturn but not outclimb and outrun the Dora. The problem is many people are not even trying, they tried like once twice, had a nasty wing drop and gave up. You must get the feel for Tempest and Pony, I have all 100 across the board(except Yaw) and I have no problems manouvering with Tempest or Pony. And I don't really get that Spitfire is sensitive thing, it gives a lot of stall warning, it's next to impossible to stall it and the recovery with properly timed reaction is exceptionally fast and effective.
P47 is one of the best planes in the game and also one of my favourites, it can match FW190A's in all aspects except roll rate at high speed(porked?) and Dora is a bit of a problem because of better sustained climb performance, the only problem is a co-E Me109 at lower alts(really bad news for a P47).
However, FW190 can effectively fight with all those planes, because in all those planes vs FW, both pilots pay the price of bad decisions and mistakes, this is what I call a fight on equal terms, I don't mind fighting more manouverable planes if they pay the price of their mistakes.

Ratsack
06-20-2006, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The Tempest, P-51 and P-47 are sheep before the Focke-Wulf.
Well OK, I respect everybody's opinion, but I have to make some comments http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
First, P51's, Tempest's, elevator, yes it's twitchy BUT if you trim it properly it's a dream especially at high speed(9-12 clicks nose down for P51, 6-9 clicks for Tempest those are my personal settings). Both Tempest and P51 outturn, outclimb(Tempest only) and can match in speed all FW190A's, and can outturn but not outclimb and outrun the Dora. The problem is many people are not even trying, they tried like once twice, had a nasty wing drop and gave up. You must get the feel for Tempest and Pony, I have all 100 across the board(except Yaw) and I have no problems manouvering with Tempest or Pony. And I don't really get that Spitfire is sensitive thing, it gives a lot of stall warning, it's next to impossible to stall it and the recovery with properly timed reaction is exceptionally fast and effective.
P47 is one of the best planes in the game and also one of my favourites, it can match FW190A's in all aspects except roll rate at high speed(porked?) and Dora is a bit of a problem because of better sustained climb performance, the only problem is a co-E Me109 at lower alts(really bad news for a P47).
However, FW190 can effectively fight with all those planes, because in all those planes vs FW, both pilots pay the price of bad decisions and mistakes, this is what I call a fight on equal terms, I don't mind fighting more manouverable planes if they pay the price of their mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I hear you about people paying for their mistakes.

I agree, the Mustangs and Tempests are faster than the Fw190A (dunno about the Dora: I virtually never fly it), but I disagree about the Pony out turning the Fw190 all the time. Under some circumstances the shoe is on the other foot with turning circle.

I also agree that the Tempest and Mustang are rides that need a bit of perseverance, just like the Fw190A. But on balance, I find the Focke-Wulf needs less attention than either of these Allied types. It's easier to fly. You need only trim it for speed and use a little left rudder at high speed, a little right rudder at low. Done. The Tempest and Mustang need a lot of trimming by comparison, and both require constant management of the CSP to prevent overheat (Tempest) and get max performance (Mustang).

Regarding the P-47, I don't think it's porked for top speed. I tested the P-47D-27 and P-47D(1944) for top speed recently in 4.05. I got the D-27 up to 430 mph at 28,000 feet. This is spot on (or a smidge fast) for a D jug pushing 56 inches of boost. I got the 1944 version up to 443 mph at the same altitude, which is also about right for a D jug pushing 64 inches of boost (even though the gauge shows 72 inches, but that's neither here nor there: it performs like a jug running 100/150 octane juice).

But for all of that, I've never met a co-energy jug that I considered a threat, except above 6,000 m. Up there the P-47's a different animal. Now, a P-47 diving on me with E to spare: that's a different story again.

The Spitfire is a problem, for sure, but it can be beaten if you can get the other guy in a position where he will make mistakes. I find the scissors useful here, but there are other ways, too. But you are right in that in terms of numbers, the Focke-Wulf has got a real problem with the Spit and La if the allied drivers don't stuff up. I suppose I'm arguing that the Focke-Wulf driver must have some f**k-up generators in his quivver specifically for the Spit and La. But I'm arguing that the good Focke-Wulf driver will try to avoid those situations in the first place, as a matter of policy.

cheers,
Ratsack

Brain32
06-20-2006, 09:54 AM
Regarding the P-47, I don't think it's porked for top speed.
Well I didn't mean top speed, I meant roll rate at higher speeds, but I truely don't know...

Now, a P-47 diving on me with E to spare: that's a different story again.
This is exactly what I like about this match-up's alt means something, and those planes bleed enough E for evasion that they will be in big trouble if they stay in the fight, something you can't say for a Spit or Lavochkin. Also the front view is very limiting, FW is a plane in which you rely on snapshots and deflection shooting, in a 1vs1 against a Spit or a Lavochkin, you will not get on his six unless your opponent is blind, both of those planes posess insta-break capatibility and their E-retention allows them to do it indefinitely(as long as they have fuel) so you have a very small envelope of shot opportunitiy and you have to do it completely blind.
I totally agree with you regarding Tempest(shouldn't be like that) and P51 difficulty of flying.

HellToupee
06-20-2006, 10:22 AM
So pull inside their super utltra mega insta break and shoot them, if your going quite fast u can pull quite far inside their turn or do a high yoyo dosnt matter if you fail to hit at any time u can walk away from mr spitfire.

A 190 tactic is to not engage a lower wingloaded higher powerloaded much better climbing and turning plane in a 1v1, as much as dont try and beat a gladiator in a turning fight when flying a me262.