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ClnlSandersLite
06-29-2005, 11:07 PM
Well, I have a tough call to make and I'd like some advice from y'all.

On one hand I LOVE the FM in 4.01 so much that I don't think there is any way I can feel right about flying 3.04 again.

On the other, 4.01 some serious show stoppers for me.
These include:
1. The AI is absolute **** in 4.01.
To me, the heart of the sim is simulating Air War in WWII. I play CO-OPS (often with AI team mates), CO-OP campaigns, offline campaigns, and the Odd skirmish here and there. However, I stay the hell away from DF servers. I'm not saying that the DFers are wrong or whatever, just that it's not my style. If I want to run a war on my pc, I need an AI that can at least land.

2. The invincible 190. (I'm not going to argue it, many here agree about this point)
I'm just not going to touch this one, just because I don't want to rant.


So, that being said, what would you guys reccomend in my case? Step back for awhile and hope for a patch (if there will be one), or roll back to 3.04?

ClnlSandersLite
06-29-2005, 11:07 PM
Well, I have a tough call to make and I'd like some advice from y'all.

On one hand I LOVE the FM in 4.01 so much that I don't think there is any way I can feel right about flying 3.04 again.

On the other, 4.01 some serious show stoppers for me.
These include:
1. The AI is absolute **** in 4.01.
To me, the heart of the sim is simulating Air War in WWII. I play CO-OPS (often with AI team mates), CO-OP campaigns, offline campaigns, and the Odd skirmish here and there. However, I stay the hell away from DF servers. I'm not saying that the DFers are wrong or whatever, just that it's not my style. If I want to run a war on my pc, I need an AI that can at least land.

2. The invincible 190. (I'm not going to argue it, many here agree about this point)
I'm just not going to touch this one, just because I don't want to rant.


So, that being said, what would you guys reccomend in my case? Step back for awhile and hope for a patch (if there will be one), or roll back to 3.04?

JG27_Stacko
06-29-2005, 11:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:

2. The invincible 190. (I'm not going to argue it, many here agree about this point)
I'm just not going to touch this one, just because I don't want to rant.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please, are people still trying to argue this point about the 190? Get in one and get over it. So much wasted time in QMB trying to prove something that just isn't true. So many 'results' getting posted when online experience tells us otherwise. Please stop the nonsense about the 190 being undamagable. This is just BS.

Hristo_
06-29-2005, 11:27 PM
Whine alert !

I know it became popular lately to whine about invincible 190, but WarClouds (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=plane/all/index.html) stats suggest otherwise.

Invincible Fw 190D-9 has 1007 kills vs 1085 deaths
Invincible Fw 190A-9 has 752 kills vs 725 deaths
Invincible Fw 190A-6 has 531 kills vs 506 deaths

These three planes have a total of 2290 kills vs 2316 deaths, giving them a K/D of 0.99. Hardly invincible.

So, in response to this latest mass hysteria, I'll have to add this: learn to fly and learn to shoot.

ClnlSandersLite
06-30-2005, 02:27 AM
I said that I'm not going to argue about the 190. I will say however that in my opinion it's easier to cause structural failure on a 111 than a 190.

However, the 190 is NOT THE ****ING POINT. The point is that the game has been, for all practical purposes, rendered unplayable due to the AI's inability to FLY. I imagine that for DFers it's not a problem. However, as I clearly stated, I'm not a DFer.

Furthermore Hristro. I've been flying this series since the Original Il-2. In adition to that, I've been SIMMING since "Chuck Yeager's Advanced Flight Trainer" over a decade ago. I'm not THE SMOOTHEST on the controls, however, I can shoot and fly plenty well.

Correction: Not a decade, 18 years ago.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/chuck-yeagers-advanced-flight-trainer

Hristo_
06-30-2005, 02:54 AM
Nice to meet you, ClnlSandersLite.

Since you countered my facts with unrelated personal history, here's mine:

Tomahawk (Spectrum, 1985)
Ace (C64, 1985)
ACE2 (C64, 1987)
Their Finest Hour (Amiga)
F/A-18 Interceptor (Amiga)
F-29 Retaliator (Amiga)
Harrier (Amiga)
F-16 Falcon (Amiga)
Air Warrior (PC)
Warbirds (PC)
Aces High (PC)
Il-2 (PC)
Lomac (PC)

So, I really don't know what this has to do with 190 "invincibility", but you're looking at a flightsim vet here. Over 20 years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Lucius_Esox
06-30-2005, 04:10 AM
Call yourself a simmer hristo,, where's F4 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Good list btw.

I sat down and counted mine out over a similar sort of period, and was amazed at the small amount of repeats, makes one realise how many combat flight sims there have been over the years.


Sorry to hijack the thread btw.

If the objection to 4.01 is the landing of the A.I then that must be a bummer for co-op. Might be a good reason for a "micro patch"

kweassa
06-30-2005, 04:12 AM
Do they calculate the K/D ratio in Warclouds, Hristo? If so, which plane has the best K/D?

Hristo_
06-30-2005, 04:27 AM
http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/

It is all there... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Ob
06-30-2005, 05:05 AM
Well I think many stages of flying is better than in 3.04 and especially the landings and takeoffs.
Remeber that this is the first time we have this FM and some tweaking is required , just like in the earlier patches.

If u feel anything is incorrect please report in the bugreport in ORR so they can take a look at it.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/2601076033


No use posting in general discussions unless u want heated discussion wich likely will turn ugly.
Best to just report your findings to oleg through the bug report. From there He will easily sort out the important stuff worth a look.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ClnlSandersLite
06-30-2005, 05:17 AM
Hristo_:
1st, I'm not counterring your "facts" at all. I've stated twice, and now a third time that I'm not arguing the point. However, as to the pesonal history, Sorry if I misinterpreted (if it was indeed a misinterpretation) this line:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, in response to this latest mass hysteria, I'll have to add this: learn to fly and learn to shoot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
as a direct jab, which was to be followed by a statement indicating that I CAN shoot.

2nd, I couldn't care less if you have a 2 year advantage on me. Especially when considering the nature of those sims as far as realism goes.

Interesting to see that you appear to be more of a jet man than prop man though. I tend to stick more with WWI-Korea. Also, Helicopter sims. Basically, if it's got a prop, I'll jump in.

Lucius_Esox:
Unfourtunatly, it's not just landing.
In all planes the AI consistantly augers in during combat maneuvers. It's not dammage related as it'll happend with or without. This happens even on a flat map.
Some planes can't land. Some can't dive bomb. Some can't take off. Some can't hold a traffic pattern. Some can't maintain formation without collisions. Some can't rocket. None can actually fight.

joeap
06-30-2005, 05:25 AM
Geez guys, that got off topic. The 190 was not the main point (and agree with Hristo here)...but the AI has some problems, as well as improvments.

sapre
06-30-2005, 06:13 AM
AI BEING **** IN 4.01??
As far as I "feel", 4.01 is the first patch that made the AI an "Artificial INTELLIGENCE"!
How can you even say AI has gotten worse in 4.01? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

EURO_Snoopy
06-30-2005, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ClnlSandersLite:
So, that being said, what would you guys reccomend in my case? Step back for awhile and hope for a patch (if there will be one), or roll back to 3.04? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is only one possible solution

Have both 3.04 and 4.01 then take your pick as the mood suits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DarthBane_
06-30-2005, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hristo_:
Nice to meet you, ClnlSandersLite.

Since you countered my facts with unrelated personal history, here's mine:

Tomahawk (Spectrum, 1985)
Ace (C64, 1985)
ACE2 (C64, 1987)
Their Finest Hour (Amiga)
F/A-18 Interceptor (Amiga)
F-29 Retaliator (Amiga)
Harrier (Amiga)
F-16 Falcon (Amiga)
Air Warrior (PC)
Warbirds (PC)
Aces High (PC)
Il-2 (PC)
Lomac (PC)

So, I really don't know what this has to do with 190 "invincibility", but you're looking at a flightsim vet here. Over 20 years http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didnt play Fighter pilot on spectrum? And mirage simulator (spectrum). You also didnt mention Spitfire (spectrum). And you call your self experienced?
Brate to su ti ozbiljni propusti u odrastanju.

Hristo_
06-30-2005, 07:09 AM
A neke sam i zaboravio, ne mozes se odmah sveg sjetiti http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Capt._Tenneal
06-30-2005, 08:16 AM
I'm glad I don't have your "problem", Lite, as I'm having a good time with 4.01. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-30-2005, 09:41 AM
I think the ai are better then they have ever been some crash from light hits but ai ace is more deadly then it has ever been.

I hope oleg leaves ai the same its fantastic now. I also hope oleg stops listening to people telling him to change ai becuase 1-2 will crash from light hits.

These are the same friggen morons who complained and made planes disapear on runways seconds after landing just becuase 2 b17s or something would clip wings when taxing to spawn pads.

I have to disagree with you i think 4.01 pretty much ruined a good game and its nothing more then the original il2 sturmovik batman trim.

Lack of E bleed in the p38 late 109s 190d and ta152 while others are hit very hard with e bleed stalling at 340-360km/h

also max dive speed of certain ac are much to high, there is really no compressability anymore speeds past 650kmh which all ac did suffer from some better then others.

Im hoping 4.02 reworks alot of things becuase if this is the last patch I think it will turn alot of people away from purchasing BOB.

There are things that I do like about the patch like inertia and mass, torque could be alot stronger tho, some dms need tweaking and giving the 109s 190d and p38s more energy bleed is very important as well as thier compressibility speeds same for all ac need to be looked at

yaks la 650 est 109G and k 750 full compressibility 3000-1000m

Basically the only advantage the allied planes had is manueverability at higher speed over the 109 which is completely takken away now.

Other things like drag and extending is done excellent in the 190s but then the jug will bleed 1100kmh to 540 so quickly when extending overheating early were the 190as can run at 105 rad 8 and maintain a higher speed much much longer in the extending period.

I also hope they make the 20mm less prone to exploding ac into nothing from one burst and cause more critical damage rather then the insta 1 sec burst explosions which is just silly to happen so frequently.

faustnik
06-30-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I hope oleg leaves ai the same its fantastic now. I also hope oleg stops listening to people telling him to change ai becuase 1-2 will crash from light hits.


I have to disagree with you i think 4.01 pretty much ruined a good game and its nothing more then the original il2 sturmovik batman trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The crash from a couple hits is very wierd and can really change offline fights.

******************

I really like the global FM changes in 4.01! 3.04 feels "wrong" now with its lack of inertia and torque. There are some issues with individual a/c such as the Fw190 DM, but, overall the patch is great!

ClnlSandersLite
06-30-2005, 10:07 AM
For those who doubt; try this.

Test Mission:

[MAIN]
MAP FinsGulf/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
player gb0100
army 1
playerNum 3
[Wing]
gb0100
[gb0100]
Planes 4
Skill 0
Class air.SPITFIRE5B
Fuel 25
weapons default
[gb0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 312307.31 100919.93 0 0 &0
NORMFLY 298960.50 95054.82 1000.00 300.00 &0
LANDING 312307.31 100919.93 0 0 &0
[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]


Steps:
1: Set to auto pilot.
2: Let mission run till you land.

Bug:
All AI spit Vbs will crash on landing. If the runway is clear, your plane will land sucessfully.


This is just ONE example I've found. In a very short period of time I've seen the AI do alot of weird things.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">some crash from light hits </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's not light hits, they just crash. Create a quick qmb. One on One, Get on his tail. Stay there but do not fire. You MAY need to fire a shot nearby to scare him into doing evasive maneuvers, but purposely miss if you do. 9/10 times he will just auger in within 5 mins if it's a low alt DF.

I've also never complained about AI planes dissapearing, and I'm not a moron.

I'm honestly not seeing that big a difference in the AI. The thing is that they've got a new FM. That's why it seems better, but the AI is having TOO much trouble coping with said FM. All it really needs is for the saftey limits to be upped a little. That's all I really want. Just for them to fly with a little bit bigger of a safety margin.

I do see problems with some planes in this game. The perfect example is dive recovery. As to E-retention, I don't see the problem. The same **** has been happening since the early days. There has always been planes that don't bleed e. They're just different planes now is all. As to the rest of why you think the game is "ruined", I personally have few official documents of any sort. Therefore, I'm not qualified to pass judgement on them one way or another.

LeadSpitter_
06-30-2005, 10:43 AM
well be happy they are doing realitsic manuevers now and be happy thier elevators and tails are not constantly glitching out.

I think they are the best they have ever been from stumovik till now.

I mean it would be nice if they could be better like bots based on the top players movements and manuevers but i doubt that can happen.

They always crashed all patchs flying into mountains ramming people, its happens so what.

ClnlSandersLite im definatly not calling you a moron but to those who complained about the landing collisions and ubis solution was to simply make landing planes disapear in seconds which i think is a total immersion ruiner and ruined things for the movie maker community as well. To me things like that make me angry which take away from the game.