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View Full Version : Wrong Way Dude!



LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 11:46 AM

MADP
05-12-2005, 11:57 AM
I use to be a flight instructor in the DC area for several years. The airspace around here is very complicated...between the 4 major airports (Andrews, DCA,IAD,and BWI) and the numerous restricted/prohibited areas it's not easy to navigate if you don't know the area. Many times those elderly flying club 150's don't have electronics worth a ****, so they could have been flying IFR (I Follow Roads). Pick the wrong road and you have a problem!

I know several locals who went astray in this area, not to mention the out-of-towners. No, I'm afraid this will continue to happen over and over again.

Tallyho1961
05-12-2005, 11:59 AM
Crappy FM?

PS - I didn't realize that you are a RL pilot. Do you still fly?

Dave.

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 12:09 PM
Well, the guy was flying from Pensylvania and I'm sorry, but what is so complicated about a swampy river bottom area with landmarks galore?

Atomic_Marten
05-12-2005, 12:11 PM
Yea..

If something gets $crewed, play it safe. Blame Luftwhiners. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 12:17 PM
Moscow is laid out in a swampy area kinda like Washington. They never have this sort of problem. Fly over restricted air space in Russia and they won't waste the flares. they'll simply look upon it as a live target excercise! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 12:25 PM
Also, isn't the reg. still in place that says that you are NOT flying VFR until you can confirm navigation by a second visual source? So the "I followed the wrong road" thing don't pass the stink test either.

Finkeren
05-12-2005, 12:28 PM
The real issue is: Isn't it a little over the top to make half of DC a no-flight zone?
And BTW why would anyone attack the White House when everyone knows that George W. is in Europe? Seems like some people are overreacting a bit.
You don't go to circus if the clown's not there.

rssmps
05-12-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Finkeren:
The real issue is: Isn't it a little over the top to make half of DC a no-flight zone?
And BTW why would anyone attack the White House when everyone knows that George W. is in Europe?

No, it's not. For a cessna, it's maybe 4 or 5 mins but for a faster aircraft. You don't have that much time.

As for Bush, in case you missed it, he was back in the states, not in Europe.

Monson74
05-12-2005, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
Moscow is laid out in a swampy area kinda like Washington. They never have this sort of problem. Fly over restricted air space in Russia and they won't waste the flares. they'll simply look upon it as a live target excercise! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Er - IIRC there was a guy who landed his plane Downtown Moscow once...

Finkeren
05-12-2005, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by rssmps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Finkeren:
The real issue is: Isn't it a little over the top to make half of DC a no-flight zone?
And BTW why would anyone attack the White House when everyone knows that George W. is in Europe?

No, it's not. For a cessna, it's maybe 4 or 5 mins but for a faster aircraft. You don't have that much time.

As for Bush, in case you missed it, he was back in the states, not in Europe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Missed that, my bad.
My oppinion still stands though. This No-flying zone is ridiculous, if someone wanted to bomb the White House they'd just do it.

MADP
05-12-2005, 01:14 PM
A few years ago (pre 9/11) some lunatic LANDED a Cessna on the White House lawn. Not so sure that could happen today, but it would be nothing to turn a jet on final at DCA into a federal building...its only a matter of seconds until impact.

And, no, to be VFR you only need 3 miles visibility, 500 below, 1000 above, 2000 horizontal in controlled airspace to be VFR...no "second visual source" needed.

Haze is real bad in the DC area...visibility routinely gets bad in the warmer months. As long as planes are allowed w/in 50 nm of DC, this kinda thing will continue to happen.

Sultan_of_Swing
05-12-2005, 01:28 PM
I live in Silver Spring which is a few miles north of DC. Several days after 9/11, I saw first hand the damage done to the Pentagon. I have relatives, my wife being one, who work in D.C. in various govt. buildings. You don't take risks around here. Period. Even a small plane can carry a big surprise. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I do agree that it's hard to figure out how these guys got so screwed up. I have been in a Cessna in this area and on a clear day, which this was, there are indeed landmarks-a-poppin. And where was his radio? They tried to reach him repeatedly and got no response, hence the two Blackhawks and 2 F-16's welcoming committee. When you are flying into or around a major major metro area it seems you want your ears turned to the "on" position??

nickdanger3
05-12-2005, 01:36 PM
That lunatic didn't land. He crashed into the White House. Didn't even break a window. Oh, and he died.

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 02:31 PM
No second source required?... for all I know, it may have never been required. I grew up in an environment that if the FAA or pilot's association suggested it, you just about treated it as law. Maybe it was foolish to do so, but I never was brought down because I ran out of gas, ran off course, got into weather I shouldn't have been in or any of the other common problems that seem to plague private pilots to this day.

LStarosta
05-12-2005, 02:40 PM
Umm... getting lost is REALLY easy from my experience (in Michigan you need to differentiate between the "potato field down yonder" and the "corn field two miles east from I-96" if you want to navigate using landmarks). I'll assume the student was behind the controls. However, he was flying with a flight instructor who is supposed to be a proficient aviator. I don't think it's an excuse, but from what I heard, the aircraft in question did not have an IFR flight plan filed, which is totally absurd if you're flying XC.

Now here's another question. Why the f*ck didn't the ATC warn the pilot(s) in question that they were approaching restricted airspace? After all they first picked up the Cessna when it was 20-odd miles away from the White House. A simple call to change course would have resolved the issue without scrambling fighters.

Sultan_of_Swing
05-12-2005, 03:23 PM
LStarosta from what I read the pilots could not be reached by radio. Which, if true, is mind boggling. Someday, one of these planes is going to be vaporized by an F-16. Just hope it's not me on MY flight lesson next week http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

vocatx
05-12-2005, 06:21 PM
Luckyboy, I think you can chalk this up to nothing more than absolute pure unadulterated STUPIDITY. They were flying with out-dated sectionals, were not listening to ATC, and apparently not avigating at all. If they were on a cross country from New England, why didn't they simply avoid the congestion around D.C.? That's what most pilots around here do when flying near D/FW or Houston if they don't need to land at one of the airports there.

I sincerely hope the FAA pulls ALL this instructor's certifications. It is the responsiblility of the instructor to pay attention to what his student is doing at all times. I really hope the other students this man has trained got better instruction than what his current student has apparently gotten.

PBNA-Boosher
05-12-2005, 07:40 PM
I'm a RL pilot as well, and the STUPIDITY (thanks for the perfect word vocatx) exhibited by that instructor AND his student is beyond deserving of a Darwin award.

This will become famous as some of the stupidest things ever done, up there with:

- The monks who actually tried Daedalus' experiment and plummetted to their deaths.

-The man who attached several weather balloons to his lawn chair and floated up a few thousand feet while enjoying a beer.

-Shooting through the propeller arc without interrupter gear.

and last, but not least, this act committed by a pair of fellow idiots truly is on par with this group:

-A group of Norwegian theives cleverly use dynamite to open a safe... that was filled with dynamite.

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 09:19 PM
Yep, I tell you what, yes, I know you only need a few hours... geeze, I've forgotten the reg it's been so long... for all I remember it was an hour and a half to four hours of navigational training to get your private VFR ticket... which, unfortunately for most to hear, is dangerously too little time.

I was trained a total of 16 hours to start in navigation and 36 hours more of navigational training when I went for my IFR ticket even though it was not required I guess. Again, I did it because it was "suggested" and back then, that's all they had to do and you'd do it... or at least I did!

Through he whole thing, the basic theme ended up going something like...

You try to confirm by three different navigational means what your position is and they should all aggree. If you get to a point where you can't even get two of them to be the same point on the map, you are long and officially lost! At that point, you get on the radio, announce that you ARE lost and take your beatings when you land.

Then, sometime in the early 1980's they went to a more punative sytle of managing private pilots due to what was perceived as some abuse of the honor system. It used to be that if you got lost, you were sat down and scolded and you sent them some documentation showing that you took some more formal navigational training and all would be forgiven. Not anymore man! They slam pilots at every turn these days.

I can't tell you whether the old philosophy for correcting bad piloting was better than the current system. All I'm saying is that especially with cheap avionics being so readily available in such reliable forms that are so easy to use and so many varied systems, you should never, and I mean never have any reason to even doubt where you are and not be able to confirm your position 3 or more ways. For God's sake, you can even get color radar for less than $2,00.00 in a private plane that back in 1970, commercial pilots would kill to have at any price!

The modern guy in me says...

Hey man, just come on down to my part of the world for a few days and I'll show you.

The good old fashioned pilot in me won't let that happen because I know I'm not rated to instruct on the subject. Navigation courses are available. Are they required?... who cares? They are beneficial, so if you haven't done it, you are shooting cr@ps with your and the publics safety and you know it!

What you do about it is up to you!

-HH-Quazi
05-12-2005, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
Yep, I tell you what, yes, I know you only need a few hours... geeze, I've forgotten the reg it's been so long... for all I remember it was an hour and a half to four hours of navigational training to get your private VFR ticket... which, unfortunately for most to hear, is dangerously too little time.

I was trained a total of 16 hours to start in navigation and 36 hours more of navigational training when I went for my IFR ticket even though it was not required I guess. Again, I did it because it was "suggested" and back then, that's all they had to do and you'd do it... or at least I did!

Through he whole thing, the basic theme ended up going something like...

You try to confirm by three different navigational means what your position is and they should all aggree. If you get to a point where you can't even get two of them to be the same point on the map, you are long and officially lost! At that point, you get on the radio, announce that you ARE lost and take your beatings when you land.

Then, sometime in the early 1980's they went to a more punative sytle of managing private pilots due to what was perceived as some abuse of the honor system. It used to be that if you got lost, you were sat down and scolded and you sent them some documentation showing that you took some more formal navigational training and all would be forgiven. Not anymore man! They slam pilots at every turn these days.

I can't tell you whether the old philosophy for correcting bad piloting was better than the current system. All I'm saying is that especially with cheap avionics being so readily available in such reliable forms that are so easy to use and so many varied systems, you should never, and I mean never have any reason to even doubt where you are and not be able to confirm your position 3 or more ways. For God's sake, you can even get color radar for less than $2,00.00 in a private plane that back in 1970, commercial pilots would kill to have at any price!

The modern guy in me says...

Hey man, just come on down to my part of the world for a few days and I'll show you.

The good old fashioned pilot in me won't let that happen because I know I'm not rated to instruct on the subject. Navigation courses are available. Are they required?... who cares? They are beneficial, so if you haven't done it, you are shooting cr@ps with your and the publics safety and you know it!

What you do about it is up to you!

Well put comrade! BTW, does part of that training include the hours you spent air racing?

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 11:39 PM
No, insanely enough, no training is required in order to pylon race! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Believe it or not, it's not the complicated things or the difficult things that leads to crashes and off course aircraft. It's the boring and tedious stuff that will kill you every time. Odd little things like...

Checking visually to see that there is as much fuel in the tank as the gauge says.

Physically checking the water traps to make sure there is no water in the system even though you know full well the gas is fresh and new and certified by the FAA.

Remembering to take the pitot tube protectors off... woops!, I was once guilty of that and only discovered my mistake when running down the runway and still showing no air speed indicated.

Checked the oil? Yes, I know it gets inspected and rebuilt more often than needed, but still, did you?

Checked the air in the tires? I've seen three crashes that all were due at least in part to uneven or improper air pressure in the tires. Kinda sad to do everything else right and then crash for that one!

Nope, the devil's in the details, so everyone who flies needs to pay special attention to boring little tasks like... noticing the F-16's before their third flare burst! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

gorillasika
05-13-2005, 02:34 AM
The guy, who landed on red square was a German, Mathias Rust

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust

Check google for more.
If I remember correctly, he flew so low with his cessna, that the radar had hard time to spot him and his small plane. By the biography, he seems to be quite a bozo, but at least he did the Moscow trip intentionally and without harming anyone else. If it wasn't so stupid, it would be called brave.

NAFP_supah
05-13-2005, 05:39 AM
I've been in private airplanes with F-16's about. Been buzzed by a few too once, 323 Sqn bad sense of humor I call it. If their at relatively the same speed their pretty easy to spot at close range. They may look smallish on pictures and on the tarmac alone but compared to your little coffeegrinder their huge mo-fo's. Once they slow down to your speed, start popping flares and you still dont notice them untill the 3rd burst of flares you need to have your eyes checked out and probably have to bad eyesight to pilot a airplane to begin with.

Jungmann
05-13-2005, 10:03 AM
My theory: the student had his head up his a** and the instructor was taking a nap.

Cheers,

LStarosta
05-13-2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
I'm a RL pilot as well

I thought you just started your lessons.

LuckyBoy1
05-13-2005, 02:11 PM
Just starting your lessons qualifies in my book. Someone wanna tell me how he's less responsible for his plane than I am with all my hours?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Luckyboy1/i-didnt-do-it.jpg

LStarosta
05-13-2005, 02:29 PM
Ummm... From hindsight, I can certainly tell you that I don't consider myself a pilot back when I was just taking lessons. Takes a lot more experience, and hair-losing, spine tingling, tighty-whitey staining moments to really be able to call yourself a real pilot than just lessons. It all starts kicking in when you do your first XC solos through unfamiliar airspace. A few radio failures here, a few miscalculations there, and a few interspersed emergencies here and there. When you manage to get through that and learn from it, then you can start calling yourself a pilot. It's all a walk in the park until you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken radio, VFR diminishing, and with a less than full gas tank; and it is here where you realize that this isn't just something fun you do on the weekends, but rather a matter of life and death where instinct, skill, balls and self control are put to the test.


And that's exactly it, Luckyboy... He isn't as responsible as you, which is why he flies with an instructor until at least he is cleared to solo.

LuckyBoy1
05-13-2005, 02:33 PM
I'm not talking competency here... I'm talking about responsibility. No matter how many hours you've flown, you still have limitations and need to use good judgement so you can assure a safe flight and work within your abilities. So in that sense, FordDude is as much a pilot as anyone.

wayno7777
05-13-2005, 10:13 PM
Hard to believe that seeing a city coming up they didn't check the compass. If you run into a big city coming out of Lancaster, PA, you d@mn sure should be able to tell you're going the wrong way. South is DC, east would be West Chester then Philly, west would be York and north you'd get lost.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
edit, well, Lebanon is north.

-HH-Quazi
05-13-2005, 11:31 PM
Well, I consider Knoxville, TN. to be a fairly large metropolitan/city area. Yet at 12,000 ft., and about 5 miles north of it, I could barely distinguish it. Mind you, it was the spring of the year and the greenery was magnificent. But if the pilot hadn't of told me exactly where to look, I would have never noticed it.

Sultan_of_Swing
05-14-2005, 08:30 AM
The pilot got his ticket pulled.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/13/AR2005051301570.html

Lubcke
05-14-2005, 09:21 AM
WHERE IS OUR FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT TO FLY WHERE I WANT TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT TO BE FREE!!!!!!!!!!!

LuckyBoy1
05-14-2005, 11:03 AM
That article is a perfect example of how a pilot with little experience can be a safer, better pilot than more experienced and as a result arrogant pilots. Read the article and see.

Want your freedom?

Your freedom ends where my physical safety begins and it's not a negotiable point.

javierib
05-14-2005, 02:21 PM
You really have to be very stupid...if an F16 shows up it's a matter of common sense to make a 180 degrees turn!!...
The other thing is, can a sidewider lock a cessna?...I think I wouldn't waste a sidewinder, much less an AMRAAM to shoot down a cessna...wouldn't be much cheaper half a second of the M61A1?

LuckyBoy1
05-14-2005, 04:19 PM
Well, I can't tell you what a sidewinder can and can't lock on to... actually, yes I can, but it's still classified today.

There are two things that people seem to forget about when considering shooting down a plane in this situation...

1) You can blow the plane to bits and it will still have the same mass and last I heard, he was over a densely populated area.

2) The pilot who does this shooting... I doubt the guy imagined it as part of his job description when he signed up.

LStarosta
05-14-2005, 06:36 PM
Under the circumstances, I'd rather have that same mass dispersed over a wide area rather than have it concentrated on some building like, God forbid, the White House.

NAFP_supah
05-15-2005, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by javierib:
You really have to be very stupid...if an F16 shows up it's a matter of common sense to make a 180 degrees turn!!...
The other thing is, can a sidewider lock a cessna?...I think I wouldn't waste a sidewinder, much less an AMRAAM to shoot down a cessna...wouldn't be much cheaper half a second of the M61A1?

Later AIM-9's could in theory. These missiles are all aspect missiles. IE not just designed to be fired from a rear aspect position. Offcourse on jets the engine is a huge heat source so it does improve the chances of a hit but it could pick up the warmer airframe (due to friction etc.) against the colder background. Also the engine of a cessna still generates some heat so it would be reasonable target. I think best practice with small GA aircraft would indeed to try and use the M61A1 however above a city like DC I would be rather worried where my rounds that didnt impact went. I would be happier using an AIM-9 and limiting the damage footprint on the ground then spraying 20 mm AFPDS all over downtown DC.