PDA

View Full Version : Butt handed to me by a Val - the new japanese uber-fighter



ploughman
12-18-2004, 11:32 AM
Oh the shame of it, bested by a gaggle of Vals. Hear this my story...

I set up QMB mission, Coral Sea, four Vals for target practiceand me in a Corsair IV. I wasn't expecting much trouble, I can handle 4 Zeroes without any trouble so this was just going to be some recreational Valicide. Or so I thought. I set the Val's skill level to average so that all the radar guided Robin Hoods manning the rear guns wouldn't pepper me too liberally from 4km away and off we went.

They were acting like fighters even before we merged, breaking high and low, so when I turned on them I shouldn't have been suprised to find I was getting it tight from all points of the compass. Pretty soon it turned into a bad dream with them queueing ('forming a line' if you're American) up behind me to take it in turns to fill me full of lead. I tried to disengage but it was too late, a lucky shot and I was swimming home.

Stunned by this unexpected turn of events I tried it with all the F-4s, and even though I'd get one or two they proved to be suprisingly dangerous adversaries and very hostile. It was only when I was in a Seafire, god's own sky chariot, that I was able to reassert my authority.

Give it a go. See what you think. Val, the new bad boy on the block.

Dunkelgrun
12-18-2004, 11:37 AM
The Val would be a great fighter if it had some better armament. I can turn with the best of them in my Val, and get a good few hits, but have to be really lucky to actually down anything. Nice plane to fly.

Weedy bombload though, the Zero can carry just as much.

Cheers!

ElAurens
12-18-2004, 11:37 AM
Old news I'm afraid.

The IJN would, in the early days of the war, employ the Val as an auxilliary fighter.

That big wing and good elevator response that are necessary for dive bombing make it a good turner as well.

I bagged a P80 online once with it...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Akronnick
12-18-2004, 12:12 PM
Has anybody tried this with the Dauntless? Would be interseting to see if USN Dive bombers behave the same way.

Fliger747
12-18-2004, 12:19 PM
The'Val' was indeed quite manuverable, which was one of it's best defences once it got rid of it's bomb load. It's main problem there, not very fast!

The SBD was reasonably manuverable as well and was used in desperation to protect the fleet against torpedo bombers early in the war. It's use in this manner resulted in some critical protection, but at great cost.

ElAurens
12-18-2004, 12:31 PM
And while we are speaking of the Val, does anyone think that the bomb load is a little light?

Surely it could carry more than a fighter?

eddiemac0
12-18-2004, 12:38 PM
Did the Japanese invent the carrier air wing (ie. fighters, torpedo planes, and dive bombers?). Because the Val's light bombload somewhat negates its effectiveness; they would have done better to double up on Zeros, half of them acting as bombers. Not to rag on the Val, as we've said, it can tango with any other fleet aircraft.

VW-IceFire
12-18-2004, 12:42 PM
Stay fast and you can beat them...requires a FW190 mentality to win http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ploughman
12-18-2004, 01:47 PM
Quite so Ice, I really under estimated the Val and got my **** kicked as a result. Once I got over the shock I tried keeping my speed up and doing the boom and zoom thing and the natural order of things was re-established. The Val's guns are pants though, it really would be dangerous if it had decent armament. I still can't believe one shot me down.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I tried the Dauntless, it too will ditch its bombs and mix it up figher style. A real have a go hero. I wonder what other closet fighters there are in the game?

Matz0r
12-18-2004, 01:50 PM
The successor to the Val, D4Y (1940) could carry twice the loadout of D3A and was pretty fast for a 1940 divebomber. Would be a riot to have that in the game! (Not a northrop too!)

Iwatapt
12-18-2004, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:

I tried the Dauntless, it too will ditch its bombs and mix it up figher style. A real have a go hero. I wonder what other closet fighters there are in the game? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The A-20 makes for a good bomber-destroyer.

Skarphol
12-18-2004, 03:10 PM
I had a funny exsperience using the QMB, quite similar to the Val excperience: Just for some targetpractice, I sometimes strap myself into a Bf-110G against 8 IL-2's, with average pilots. Usually the IL-2's will fly very defencive, and just try to avoid beeing shot down. Usually I will down quite a lot of them before I run out of ammo. But this time I chose the pacific map in the QMB, and suddenly the IL-2's acted like fighters! They attacked me fiercly, and shot me down before I could shoot down any of them. This happened three times, before I switched back to the Moscow map, and everything was back to normal with me clearing the sky for russians. Strange thing, it is...

Skarphol

ploughman
12-18-2004, 03:22 PM
You're right, it seems to depend on the map. I just tried the Coral Sea scenario on Pacific Islands and the Vals acted like docile bombers and were lambs to the slaughter.

F19_Orheim
12-18-2004, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F16_Matz_:
The successor to the Val, D4Y (1940) could carry twice the loadout of D3A and was pretty fast for a 1940 divebomber. Would be a riot to have that in the game! (Not a northrop too!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/bww2/d4y-i.jpg
A the "Judy" or "Suisei"...isn't she a beauty? Kind of "shark-like"...

Iwatapt
12-18-2004, 04:26 PM
Funny thing is, she met her more glorious days in the kamikaze role than doing any dive-bombing. Or rather, the "One-way Ticket" dive-bombing version.

Stiglr
12-18-2004, 05:16 PM
Dauntlesses were pressed into service as "fighters" during the real desperate days of the Cactus AF on Guadalcanal....

As for the Val, yep, she can surprise ya. I remember back in Warbirds, there was this guy named "toad" who was the resident Val expert. He could hand almost anybody their butt in a Val. I could do so on occasion, but, like when flying a Stuka I'd require a highly overagressive opponent and some luck. This guy could do it regularly and repeatably.

But it can be done.

chris455
12-18-2004, 06:04 PM
Taken from:
"Combat Tactics In the Southwest Pacific"
by Thomas B ("Tommy") McGuire, Major, USAAF

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Light Bombers and Dive Bombers.
Light Bombers and Dive Bombers: -- It may be varied to head-on or from the side under appropriate conditions, but the best attack against the Japanese light bomber or dive-bomber is the attack from dead astern. Light bombers are not often encountered, but the wheels-down dive-bombers are so familiar that our pilots have almost a friendly feeling toward them. These slow-moving, poorly armed, unarmored planes are the nearest thing to sitting birds as will be found in modern warfare, and their strategy in action appears to be designed to have as many of them shot down as possible. Starting their dive from fifteen to eighteen thousand feet, the Vals reach a maximum speed of 300-325 mph, drop their bombs, and go right on down to the deck, where they break formation and scoot for home in all directions. A P-38 can follow them nicely in their dives and with any sort of luck can force them to jettison their bombs before they can release them on the shipping which is their usual target. Having pulled out of the dive, the Val slows down rapidly, skimming low over the water and the pursuing P-38 closes and delivers the coup de grace".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In the sometimes upside down world of FB, I'm sure the Val can do many things. Real life was another matter. Of course, fanboys and other enthusiasts will surely dismiss Major McGuire's account as- what's their favorite term? -anecdotal?

ploughman
12-18-2004, 06:22 PM
Fret not Chris. They only behave like cornered Mongoose (or is that Mongii?) on the Coral Sea map (so far as I know), on all other maps it seems they meekly go to the slaughter in a historically correct manner.

BlitzPig_DDT
12-18-2004, 06:35 PM
The concern Chris has, unless I miss my guess, is not the AI, but the player FM. Generally speaking the AI just don't blackout, can see 720 degrees through objects (like clouds) and are not affected by niggling things like VNE, control stiffness or overheat. Other than they they aren't too far different it seems.

LEXX_Luthor
12-18-2004, 06:43 PM
Sadly that McGuire quote is worthless for Val bombers piloted by trained, experienced, and aggressive fighter pilots, real life or internet dogfighter.

Real life Val pilots were not fighter pilots.

Ploughman::: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I really under estimated the Val and got my **** kicked as a result. Once I got over the shock I tried keeping my speed up and doing the boom and zoom thing and the natural order of things was re-established. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Savour the Moment. Remember this as re~living the experience lived by the real US and Brit pilots in late 41 and early 42. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Like them, you learned a lesson (and lived), a lesson you will not soon forget...but at some point you will forget again...

Interesting story of German Bf~109 Ace who Bounced a low and slow Yak~3 trying to land, but his first shots were not enough, and in the Heat of the Moment he too "forgot" and tried to turn with the Yak. The Yak airfield became his home airfield also.

Latico
12-18-2004, 06:49 PM
I was in a SBD the other night on one of the DF rooms. I found myself with 2 bandits on my six. I made slow turns back and forth to give the AI gunner clear shots and apparently he downed both of them.

One of the discoveries made by USN VB and VT squadrons was that the Japanese fighters were not inspired to press home an attqack on SBD's and TB's when they were in formation. The adopted tactic of the SU squadrons was to reform quickly after a bomb run and stay close to the deck until well away from fighter intesepters.

Apparently, several back seat gunners firng at the enemy was bad for Japanese health. LOL

ploughman
12-18-2004, 07:03 PM
Quite. I'm not overiding the testimony of a pilot who fought Vals. The things were massed produced target practice, that's why I originally created a Valicidal mission. The thing is, in PF, on a Coral Sea QMB map, if you create a mission using a late war plane against the Val, the Val gets very belligerent. This may not be historically correct but it happens in the simulation. It has been reported that different AI flown aircraft types behave differntly on differnt maps. The IL-2 is very hostile on the Pacific Islands map, the Val is a psycho on the Coral Sea map. Perhaps other AI controlled aircraft in this simulation behave differently depending on which map they're on.

LEXX_Luthor
12-18-2004, 07:33 PM
If you are correct, its probably because the missions that were hand~made for the QMB maps don't use the same AI aircraft waypoint procedures. Doubtful its the maps themselves, and we don't see the AI aircraft waypoints of QMB missions like we do FMB missions.

Matz0r
12-19-2004, 03:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The IL-2 is very hostile on the Pacific Islands map, the Val is a psycho on the Coral Sea map. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not very likely, you tried to tnb with them and the AI reponded to that.

SeaFireLIV
12-19-2004, 03:55 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The concern Chris has, unless I miss my guess, is not the AI, but the player FM. Generally speaking the AI just don't blackout,QUOTE]

AI don`t blackout, but will NOT make manouevers that would cause them to black out Oleg has said. Whether you wish to believe it or not`s up to you.

FI_Macca44
12-19-2004, 04:35 AM
In some book I read that after an air raid (probably Singapore area,but not sure) the Val pilots engaged a quite big group of hurricanes and other fighters (early in the War) and gave them a lesson, they fought like normal fighter planes almosthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Lovely plane to fly. I remember it was very nice fighter in 1942 Pacific Air War as well.

F19_Olli72
12-19-2004, 05:01 AM
Iv'e bagged a few wildcats with Val online too, rookie pilots engaging in a slow turnfight get a very unpleasant surprise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Though once the controls are gone in a Val your pretty much dead meat.

Orheim: I love the Judy as well, it would be cool with the 20 mm oblique cannon (schr├┬Ągemusik) interceptor version too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Spinnetti
12-19-2004, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Orheim:


http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/bww2/d4y-i.jpg
A the "Judy" or "Suisei"...isn't she a beauty? Kind of "shark-like"... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like half Stuka, half somethin' else....

Aaron_GT
12-19-2004, 09:26 AM
If you get low and slow trying to attack a Val then it can turn on you and do damage. So it's a problem if you are using the wrong tactics. In WW2 they would have tended not to use those incorrect tactics, hence the Val didn't do so well historically.

stathem
12-19-2004, 01:23 PM
Tough little birds as well.....

chris455
12-19-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
Fret not Chris. They only behave like cornered Mongoose (or is that Mongii?) on the Coral Sea map (so far as I know), on all other maps it seems they meekly go to the slaughter in a historically correct manner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO- "Mongii" ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
12-19-2004, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The concern Chris has, unless I miss my guess, is not the AI, but the player FM. Generally speaking the AI just don't blackout,QUOTE]

AI don`t blackout, but will NOT make manouevers that would cause them to black out Oleg has said. Whether you wish to believe it or not`s up to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whether you wish to wipe the brown off your nose is up to you.

Whether the AI wish to demonstrate this benefit of theirs is up to them and they often do.

Alternately, certain planes simply don't black out as easily as others in a given G load, but that has been denied too, and so you will as well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

actionhank1786
12-19-2004, 03:31 PM
I was dive bombing a carrier in the SBD, and as i pulled out of my dive, i see the Zero's that had been taking off of the deck in front of me, so i put the brakes in, and go after them, and i shot down two that had just gotten off the deck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
poor bastards

WWScout
12-19-2004, 03:46 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Sadly that McGuire quote is worthless for Val bombers piloted by trained, experienced, and aggressive fighter pilots, real life or internet dogfighter.
Real life Val pilots were not fighter pilots.[QUOTE]

I'm sure those poorly trained bomber pilots didn't use every tactic in the book to save their hides. They just sat there like lambs for the slaughter. An aggressive fighter pilot would have turned the tables on the late great Thomas B. McGuire! What an amazingly ingnorant statement.

LEXX_Luthor
12-19-2004, 06:23 PM
Sorry, read the post again.

p1ngu666
12-19-2004, 08:10 PM
aprently zero escorts didnt drop down with vals, so didnt see p38s attacking vals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

theres also a rear gunner on a val http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

val can take 250 + 2 60kg bombs

zero's 250kg bomb was for kamikaze missions, bomb realese wasnt always reliable.

the last 2 zeros we have, should have a 500kg bomb, btw being dive bombers

ploughman
12-20-2004, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
quote:The IL-2 is very hostile on the Pacific Islands map, the Val is a psycho on the Coral Sea map.

Not very likely, you tried to tnb with them and the AI reponded to that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, they broke in pairs before we merged in a very fighterly manner with one pair splitting high and low, one pair boring on through. This was on the Coral Sea map. When I tried them on the Pacific Islands map and they flew on in a finger four formation in a docile manner, just like you'd expect. I tried turning and burning with them but they weren't very aggressive at all.

Why not try it and see for your self? I'm using 3.02bm at the moment and I think I left the altitude at 1000m, but changed the time to mid-morning to get nice water effects. A Corsair IV was what I was using to start with. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If they don't act like fighters let us know.