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View Full Version : How do you use your superior roll rate in a merge?



Woke_Up_Dead
07-24-2009, 05:53 PM
I like to fly planes that have a very good roll rate but can sometimes be out-turned. For example, in early-war maps the I-16 rolls like crazy but in a sustained turn a Zero will be better. In mid-late war online servers I often fly Yaks which can almost, but not quite turn as tight as the always popular Spitfire. FW-190s vs most American planes is another one of those matchups with a great roller on one side and a slightly better turner on the other.

On another thread K-Freddie is discussing how to turn-fight with the 190 vs more maneuverable planes like Spits, but as far as I can tell a lot of the discussion there boils down to "put your enemy on your six then make him overshoot." I've already figured out how to do that and I'm not bad at it, but I would like to know how to use that roll rate BEFORE my opponent gets a good, long look at my butt.

So let's say your flying an I-16/Yak/190 and you see a Zero/Spitfire/F4U coming at you from a distance, head-on, co-alt, co-e. What do you do, what are your first two or three moves that use your greatly superior roll-rate to negate his slightly better turn-rate?

Woke_Up_Dead
07-24-2009, 05:53 PM
I like to fly planes that have a very good roll rate but can sometimes be out-turned. For example, in early-war maps the I-16 rolls like crazy but in a sustained turn a Zero will be better. In mid-late war online servers I often fly Yaks which can almost, but not quite turn as tight as the always popular Spitfire. FW-190s vs most American planes is another one of those matchups with a great roller on one side and a slightly better turner on the other.

On another thread K-Freddie is discussing how to turn-fight with the 190 vs more maneuverable planes like Spits, but as far as I can tell a lot of the discussion there boils down to "put your enemy on your six then make him overshoot." I've already figured out how to do that and I'm not bad at it, but I would like to know how to use that roll rate BEFORE my opponent gets a good, long look at my butt.

So let's say your flying an I-16/Yak/190 and you see a Zero/Spitfire/F4U coming at you from a distance, head-on, co-alt, co-e. What do you do, what are your first two or three moves that use your greatly superior roll-rate to negate his slightly better turn-rate?

Lt_Letum
07-24-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm not sure that roll rate can offer a large
advantage in situations other than when rapid
turn reversal is needed i.e. scissors (and some
other maneuvers if you have a negative g cut-out).

Most purely horizontal merges end up in either a
continuous turn or progressively tighter
scissors anyway; unless things go more vertical
as is usual.

Try to get him to start tight scissors ASAP.
He does not need to be behind you for this to
happen, he just needs to think he can turn into
a position to shoot you.

ed: I suppose it might give some advantage in
high and low yoyo turns as well, but not a big
advantage.

na85
07-24-2009, 06:08 PM
When on earth are you fighting spits while flying a yak?

Anyways... to my mind a superior roll rate isn't always applicable.

In a head-on, co-e situation you're looking to avoid the head-on. Head-ons are just silly. Years ago I watched a track where the author described getting to the opponent's "cold side" which was below his nose where he can't see you, and where he'll red out if he tries to push too hard on the stick to nose down.

Assuming that your bandit enjoys a turn radius advantage in addition to his turn rate advantage (not always the case):

After the merge, I would watch where he goes. If he comes around in the horizontal or nearly-horizontal plane, then I would be looking to go nose-to-tail, since going nose-to-nose would be directly to his benefit, allowing him to cut the turn.

After that... well it's hard to say. It depends on what sort of maneuvers the bandit pulls.

na85
07-24-2009, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lt_Letum:

Try to get him to start tight scissors ASAP.
He does not need to be behind you for this to
happen, he just needs to think he can turn into
a position to shoot you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must disagree with this... the scissors is a maneuver used to cause an overshoot. If the two aircraft are merging head-on, a scissors would be IMO a waste of time.

Additionally, every time you merge with the enemy during a scissors you are potentially presenting him a target.

Woke_Up_Dead
07-24-2009, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
When on earth are you fighting spits while flying a yak? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On most of the popular open-pit servers. At the times I fly (evening, Pacific time) there often aren't many 4.08 historical servers with more than a couple of people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
In a head-on, co-e situation you're looking to avoid the head-on. Head-ons are just silly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, you don't have to pass head-on, I simply wanted to set up an example of a situation where there is no initial advantage to either plane. So let's say you are both flying towards each other on the exact same axis at the exact same altitude, you spot each other 5kms away, and at this point you can do whatever you want, what do you do?

M_Gunz
07-24-2009, 06:26 PM
Roll and climb so as to keep him in sight while you slow down and tighten your own turn radius, but don't slow down
so much you can barely turn. You might even roll near inverted and cross his turning circle from above, he can be
going way faster than you and you can still drop and get a leading fire shot.

ADD: if all you do is pull up then you will lose sight as you pass right over his head which puts you right in
front of his guns if he does pull up.

If you point the nose up or down then rolling will reorient your lift vector. You can change direction as fast as
you can get vertical, roll to the new heading and then get horizontal again. It is best to do this with greater
speed (more than marginally greater) since otherwise the enemy will have the energy and agility to come up and wax
your butt -- but only if he knows he should/can. If he's a mudhen then all he will do is turn tighter and get slower.

ADD: a barrel roll changes your direction constantly, you can exit at any time along the path you choose.

ADD-ADD: BTW P-47 (a fast rolling plane) pilots found that in scissors instead of rocking the plane back and forth
to change direction (left, right, left, right) it was better to roll over to change direction, less mushing.
Like you are banked right, turning right then you roll right until you are facing left and transition that way.
I dunno if that works for any other planes but it's easy enough to find out.

Rolling is the FASTEST way to reorient your lift and at decent flight speed lift is your most powerful maneuver force.

Lt_Letum
07-24-2009, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lt_Letum:

Try to get him to start tight scissors ASAP.
He does not need to be behind you for this to
happen, he just needs to think he can turn into
a position to shoot you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must disagree with this... the scissors is a maneuver used to cause an overshoot. If the two aircraft are merging head-on, a scissors would be IMO a waste of time.

Additionally, every time you merge with the enemy during a scissors you are potentially presenting him a target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with you completely.
I would never do this in any plane.

I was only thinking of ways to use roll rate as
the only advantage.
In reality the roll rate advantage isn't much
use in the opening parts of an engagement.

BillSwagger
07-24-2009, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
M_Gunz
Like you are banked right, turning right then you roll right until you are facing left and transition that way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do this all the time. Its just faster to roll the plane in the same direction it was going than to roll it opposite. There's more stick movement too, and something about the way the plane is angled that allows you to start turning sooner.
Also, you mentioned earlier how lift can help increase dive speed, well turning from an inverted angle has the same sling shot effect. You roll right to turn, then roll over more so that you can barrel out of the inverted roll off to the left.
(hope that makes sense)



Another thing, when chasing an enemy in a dive it becomes easier to chase him if i keep my plane in a loose roll.


In the case of a head on, in any plane, i dip my nose under him so if he wants to take a shot at me, he has to pitch his nose down and go into a shallow dive. At some point i would then pull up into steep climb and roll above him to not lose site. He can also pull up, but he's already committed to a shallow dive so i have the drop on him if he does.

The trickiest part is not getting hit when he dives at me, so I barrel roll to the inside of his flight path which always makes it harder to line up a shot, if my goal is to climb above him as he passes me.

In the event he doesn't bite and continues straight or sometimes they see me lower, so they go into a climb, then i continue in a shallow dive, to get separation and set up another head on pass.

From my experience, it seems better to let him make several head on passes, and staying out of the way of his guns, until he does bite and dip his nose at you in a pass.

danjama
07-24-2009, 07:48 PM
Im sorry but this is dumb.

na85
07-24-2009, 11:15 PM
It's not dumb, he had a legitimate question.

Henkie327
07-25-2009, 12:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
I like to fly planes that have a very good roll rate but can sometimes be out-turned. For example, in early-war maps the I-16 rolls like crazy but in a sustained turn a Zero will be better. In mid-late war online servers I often fly Yaks which can almost, but not quite turn as tight as the always popular Spitfire. FW-190s vs most American planes is another one of those matchups with a great roller on one side and a slightly better turner on the other.

On another thread K-Freddie is discussing how to turn-fight with the 190 vs more maneuverable planes like Spits, but as far as I can tell a lot of the discussion there boils down to "put your enemy on your six then make him overshoot." I've already figured out how to do that and I'm not bad at it, but I would like to know how to use that roll rate BEFORE my opponent gets a good, long look at my butt.

So let's say your flying an I-16/Yak/190 and you see a Zero/Spitfire/F4U coming at you from a distance, head-on, co-alt, co-e. What do you do, what are your first two or three moves that use your greatly superior roll-rate to negate his slightly better turn-rate? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a merge situation I don't know how you could use superior roll rate.

But roll rate can "replace" turn rate in some situations.

When that happens you will have the smallest turn radius and at the same time also the fastest turn.

The situation I mean is when, for example, you are pointed vertical (up or down) and the bandit is turning horizontal.

If for example you come down vertical, pointing your nose at the bandit below you that is turning horizontally, not only will you be able to turn inside his turn, but you will be able to outturn him simply by rolling.

In this case, even a plane with relatively slow roll rate can then still turn inside the turn of the plane with the fastest horizontal turn rate and smallest turn radius.

There is also a real story I read about a P47 pilot using roll rate against a spitfire in a mock dogfight. If I remember correctly I think he did it by constantly rolling and reversing the aileron roll from one side to the opposite side.
The following spitfire could never match the roll rate of the P47, so the distance between the 2 planes kept increasing, leaving the spitfire wallowing in the sky.

But this would need a big enough difference in roll rate between the planes so I doubt you could do it in this game with 2 fighterplanes.

danjama
07-25-2009, 02:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
It's not dumb, he had a legitimate question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea i'd like to apologise for that reply to the thread i was SO drunk last night.

DKoor
07-25-2009, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
It's not dumb, he had a legitimate question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea i'd like to apologise for that reply to the thread i was SO drunk last night. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You know what they say... what a sober man thinks, a drunk man says http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

K_Freddie
07-25-2009, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
It's not dumb, he had a legitimate question. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea i'd like to apologise for that reply to the thread i was SO drunk last night. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hah.. you need to drink more... then you end up with posts like mine... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

danjama
07-25-2009, 03:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tully__
07-25-2009, 05:29 PM
Among the gems to be found at http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html are some articles that have very useful information on the use of roll rate advantage. It's been some time since I read most of them so I don't recall which, but the entire library is worth at least a skim and some articles deserve to be re-read a couple of times a year.