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View Full Version : Please fix the Dora's Mg151s



Fish6891
02-12-2005, 04:05 PM
See title.

Fish6891
02-12-2005, 04:05 PM
See title.

VW-IceFire
02-12-2005, 04:20 PM
A stunning and comprehensive argument http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

faustnik
02-12-2005, 04:23 PM
I think Ivan already wrapped this into the other Mg151 questions thread.

One is enough, even for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-13-2005, 10:01 AM
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=39

yes they are only the 3rd in top scoring weapon under the 190a9 with wing 108 cannons and p63 cannon.

fish try some p51 and p47 stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
02-13-2005, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I think Ivan already wrapped this into the other Mg151 questions thread.

One is enough, even for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trouble is, Ivan hasn't cleared it up because, in that thread, he said he would approach Oleg about it (again) and we've seen nothing since.


Cheers,
Norris

JG7_Rall
02-13-2005, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=39

yes they are only the 3rd in top scoring weapon under the 190a9 with wing 108 cannons and p63 cannon.

fish try some p51 and p47 stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stats hardly tell the whole story. Maybe your red boys just can't aim? :P

Nubarus
02-13-2005, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=39

yes they are only the 3rd in top scoring weapon under the 190a9 with wing 108 cannons and p63 cannon.

fish try some p51 and p47 stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stats hardly tell the whole story. Maybe your red boys just can't aim? :P <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I have never had any problems with the MG151 and it's killing power so the only conclusion I have left is you blue 20mm whiner boys just plainly $uck big time at shooting.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

p1ngu666
02-13-2005, 01:08 PM
just shoot paper bag il2's
cut 2 cables first burst, good chance of damaging engine or cannon
but hey, ull get those on your 2nd burst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 01:28 PM
omFg f1sh j00 n00b.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 01:31 PM
Don't be naive, yes they can kill, no they are not powerful enough(obviously so). I have tracks.

Hetzer_II
02-13-2005, 01:32 PM
To anwser the conclusion that the 151 is to weak with the conclusion that the 0.50 is much weaker is booring...

How do you answer to the question: How heavy is the apple? Yea but look at the pineapple..

Not very smart or?

p1ngu666
02-13-2005, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Don't be naive, yes they can kill, no they are not powerful enough(obviously so). I have tracks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have snacks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
omFg f1sh j00 n00b.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

0MG LMA01YF!!!11!1111one111oneon1eo1ne11one11oenon1e1o en1ne1111on1e

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 01:56 PM
MG151s porked?

This track would say.. no.

http://s2.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1BL03KC28D4VX2QN4FP6GU4U1N

Watch it with external views, slow motion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

v3.05

Spit = pwned, MK108 style.

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 02:05 PM
Sure the 151 will hit HARD every once in a bl00 moon, but I want to see you post a track in which you do consistent decent damage against more that one plane. One track of one freak incident proves bunk.

Nubarus
02-13-2005, 02:25 PM
It seems Fish didn't test very well since this bug happens with every weapon in this game.

It's pretty simple really.

The planes in this sim have certain parts that cannot be damaged in any way and if you just happen to hit those parts it would seem something is borked.

I have tested this over a year ago and still run into it from time to time but in general I have figured out what parts on what plane is undamageble so I aim for other parts instead.

I have even hit for instance a FW190 4 times with the 37mm cannon and it was still flying and even fighting like nothing happend.
Does that mean the 37mm cannon is borked?
No it doesn't because if you hit a damageble part you only need one hit.

I also have recored loads of tracks during various dicussions regarding weapon effectiveness and this sims DM and did tons of tests to know what is going on.

Not so long ago someone posted pics of a Yak9 getting hit by several MG151 rounds and it didn't go down, I then did a few tests flying the G2 and only fired the hub mounted 20mm cannon and both Yak9's wen't down in the first pass, the first one was already damaged enough to go down when the first round struck so the ones after that just added to the effect but where not really needed.
So in that regard there is nothing wrong with the cannon as far as I can see, it's the DM that is causing the weirdness and I don't think it can be changed since this is how the DM is build.
Every plane in this sim has area's that cannot be shot off or damaged enough to make it go down and THAT is WHY you get WEIRD effects SOMETIMES.

Even more during online play because you also get lag and packet loss in the picture.

Get used to it is the only advice I have.

faustnik
02-13-2005, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:


LOL, I have never had any problems with the MG151 and it's killing power so the only conclusion I have left is you blue 20mm whiner boys just plainly $uck big time at shooting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice trolling Nubarus. You surprised me with that one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There is a difference between those "whining" about the Mg151 and those who have legitimate questions about it. I hope you can see the difference.

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 03:13 PM
the MG151 is definatly weaker than the Hispano. is this realistic?

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 03:14 PM
Mg151s destructive power is generally consistently 1/5th to 1/4th that of the hispano, just tested it w/Megile http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 03:18 PM
I think we can safely conclude...

From the Hispano, Delta wood won't save you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Vipez-
02-13-2005, 03:23 PM
now if someone seriously tells here that MG151/20 is fine should get his/her eyes fixxed.. for christ sake, try the Shvak and hispano, then the MG151/20.. be amazed! Be surprised! Be Shocked! Be Be-sured!

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
Be Shocked! Be Be-sured! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
02-13-2005, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
the MG151 is definatly weaker than the Hispano. is this realistic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question Megile. One we've been throwing around this board for a long time. The conclusion we have come to is "maybe". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-13-2005, 03:42 PM
just got 12 kills in CZ_AH dedicated server on spitfires when flying the 190a4 in one run and was able to rtb all airkills, isnt that the same weapons the doras have? Can kill in one pass everytime, can choose to outrun when ever you wish, has better elevator authority highspeed. so much for the uber spit myth. it holds one area low alt turn fight. I have hit many ta 152s and 190s dozens of times with hispanos and they can take many hits as well on rare occasion. just like the doras mg151s usually takes a 1 sec burst to explode a spit p47 p38 p51, dont matter use 300 to 150m convergence mess around with 210.45 etc find what you like best for 1 sec exploding ability.

i dont see how they can make them any stronger except past .20 range which needs to be done to alot of weapons.
I certainly cant do that with any other gun in game

faustnik
02-13-2005, 03:53 PM
Leadspitter,

It is amazing how you flip-flop on opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif ???? You were just saying the Mg151 was too weak a little while ago, did you get a patch we missed? Are you holding out on us? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Vipez-
02-13-2005, 04:05 PM
lead.. first of all.. A-4 should have ammo to like 200 fighter kills.. second, MG/FFM is more or less FINE.. they boost fw190 firepowe,( A-4 and A-5) .. infact because of this A-4 and A-5 outgun A-6..

Second, what do you expect from a plane with 4 20 mm cannons. Some could say FW190 outgunned all ww-2 planes in the skys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . take the Hurricane IIC for a flight, and then see how much damage those cannons make http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if you make P51s and spits explode in one sec burst with Dora MG151/20s then we must be flying different games http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If you as me, one second burst is a really LOOONG time.. in one second its a whole lot of 20mm shells. When you count the fact, that usually it took average 1.5 mg151/20 hits to down a russian fighter.. (though yes i would agree it would take bit more to down a P-47/tempest on average http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Vipez-
02-13-2005, 04:18 PM
x

Vipez-
02-13-2005, 04:20 PM
hmm about the Cobra's 37 m.. most planes take a few hits before they go down from Cobras M-4 37 mm cannon.. but Try the RUssian Cannons, NS-37 .. allways one hit - one kill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I could agree m-4 is bit crippled..

Though I've heard about M4 beeing ineffective, because it didnt have delayzed fuzes (shells exploding outside the airplane skin, not causing so big structrucal damage.) but NS-37 and NS-45 certainly don't have the same problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
02-13-2005, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
the MG151 is definatly weaker than the Hispano. is this realistic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good question Megile. One we've been throwing around this board for a long time. The conclusion we have come to is "maybe". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif maybe.

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 04:26 PM
Maybe NOT, La-7 should not be taking around 10 Mg151s to down.

(fyi, took 1 or 2 hispanos to down La7 each time)

LeadSpitter_
02-13-2005, 04:27 PM
flip flopping, I think the mg151/20 is weak past .20 range but it can still kill in one pass everytime with close range shots.

Past .20 range its very weak in my opinion.

But like i said I just shotdown 12 spitfires in the a4 in one run 50 fuel all in a 1 sec burst using 210.45 convergence for cannon.

Fish6891
02-13-2005, 04:39 PM
We tested at extremely close ranges.

p1ngu666
02-13-2005, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Sure the 151 will hit HARD <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/evilingu http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HayateAce
02-13-2005, 05:06 PM
They seem pretty good to me. I scored 2.5 kills the other day in one online sortee. The Dora is bad news bear if you ask me. Niiiice aircraft with hard hitting weapon set.

&lt;S&gt;

faustnik
02-13-2005, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
flip flopping, I think the mg151/20 is weak past .20 range but it can still kill in one pass everytime with close range shots.

Past .20 range its very weak in my opinion.

But like i said I just shotdown 12 spitfires in the a4 in one run 50 fuel all in a 1 sec burst using 210.45 convergence for cannon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I get it. Yeah, 4 x Mg151 at close range is good. About the same as 2 x Hispano. I agree.

WWMaxGunz
02-13-2005, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
hmm about the Cobra's 37 m.. most planes take a few hits before they go down from Cobras M-4 37 mm cannon.. but Try the RUssian Cannons, NS-37 .. allways one hit - one kill http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I could agree m-4 is bit crippled..

Though I've heard about M4 beeing ineffective, because it didnt have delayzed fuzes (shells exploding outside the airplane skin, not causing so big structrucal damage.) but NS-37 and NS-45 certainly don't have the same problem http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From history M4 has the lighter shell at much lower velocity.
What you expect?

The Russians fielded bigger and more powerful guns in general (not always) once the war
got moving and really even before that.

JG52_Meyer
02-13-2005, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
the MG151 is definatly weaker than the Hispano. is this realistic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

faustnik
02-13-2005, 09:39 PM
Meyer,

You can't just say "no". The Hispano has much better AP ability than the Mg151. With minengeschoss, the Mg151 had better high explosive power. Which was will do more damage is a difficult question.

Nubarus
02-14-2005, 01:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:


LOL, I have never had any problems with the MG151 and it's killing power so the only conclusion I have left is you blue 20mm whiner boys just plainly $uck big time at shooting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice trolling Nubarus. You surprised me with that one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

There is a difference between those "whining" about the Mg151 and those who have legitimate questions about it. I hope you can see the difference. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I explained myself in my other post, but apparently nobody wants to hear it.

Not surprised really, it has always been like that and it will never change either.

anarchy52
02-14-2005, 02:36 AM
Hayateace thinks MG151/20 are fine
Leadspitter doesn't realize the difference between MG151/20 and MG/FF
If Copperhead hadn't been banned I'm sure he'd put a good word for MG151/20 also

Move along folks, nothing to see here but bias, ignorance and hipocrisy

DarthBane_
02-14-2005, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
http://www.stats.war-clouds.com/wf/playerdetails.php?id=39

yes they are only the 3rd in top scoring weapon under the 190a9 with wing 108 cannons and p63 cannon.

fish try some p51 and p47 stats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Little girls ride p51 and p47, you cannot compare tham with macho planes like FW.

Fish6891
02-14-2005, 03:22 AM
I'm not asking to be able to de-wing an enemy aircraft with every shot, I just want them to at least have decent crippling power. You get into a fight with a Spit and put 4 20mms into him and he's just fine except for maybe a fuel leak, and minor wing damage if ur lucky, this happens far too consistently for it to just be a freak incident. One shot from his hispanos to ur wing and u've got a gargantuan hole in either one or both of ur wings, depending upon where the rounds hit. The hispanos are great, and I'm not saying they shouldnt be, I'm just saying that the Mg151 should at least be comparable. It should not be necessary to get a sustained burst in with the Mg151 in order to merely decently cripple your foe.

Regards,
Fish

anarchy52
02-14-2005, 03:30 AM
Mistery is unraveling, clue was MG151/20 gunpods. Seems that only gunpods have M-geschoss shell. With gunpods you can cripple/kill in one pass just like hispano.
Extensive testing done, beyond any doubt gunpods are much stronger then any other MG151/20 installation, comparable to hispano.

Now waiting for Oleg's feedback. Hope it finally gets fixed.

Fehler
02-14-2005, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I'm not asking to be able to de-wing an enemy aircraft with every shot, I just want them to at least have decent crippling power. You get into a fight with a Spit and put 4 20mms into him and he's just fine except for maybe a fuel leak, and minor wing damage if ur lucky, this happens far too consistently for it to just be a freak incident. One shot from his hispanos to ur wing and u've got a gargantuan hole in either one or both of ur wings, depending upon where the rounds hit. The hispanos are great, and I'm not saying they shouldnt be, I'm just saying that the Mg151 should at least be camparable. It should not be necessary to get a sustained burst in with the Mg151 in order to merely decently cripple your foe.

Regards,
Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the essence os the debate. Why is the 151/20 such a poor weapon compared to it's 20mm counterparts? Yes, the Hispano and SHvAK's are slightly better, but were they as dramatically better than they are depicted in the game?

Yes you can kill with a 151/20. But it takes a much greater and much more noticable amount of ammo on target to do similar damage. In real life, the weapons were not that different. The 151/20 trading it's explosive power for ROF and velocity of the Hispano.

If explosive rounds were emphasized in this game over velocity of rounds, we would be asking how the Hispano was so much weaker than the 151/20. But for some reason, the explosive power of German weapons are not considered with as much weight regarding gun effectiveness.

Velocity of a round means nothing if it doesnt strike a critical object. You just make nice clean entry and exit holes. Energy much be transferred to cause damage. That's the way it works on humans and animals, and that the way it works on airplanes. That's why the Germans as well as all other nations developed explosive rounds. In that respect, the German rounds were more powerful than their counterparts. But in the game, we have something completely different.

BTW Lead... the A-4 has four 20mm cannon. Not 2 like the Dora. Of the four, two are 151/20. The other are MG/FF.

I find it funny that the Germans decided that two 20mm were sufficient on the Dora (Same exact wing), but in the game you better have four if you want to do any real damage. Hmm, those silly Germans... what did they know about their own guns?

crazyivan1970
02-14-2005, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I think Ivan already wrapped this into the other Mg151 questions thread.

One is enough, even for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trouble is, Ivan hasn't cleared it up because, in that thread, he said he would approach Oleg about it (again) and we've seen nothing since.


Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure?

tigertalon
02-14-2005, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
I'm not asking to be able to de-wing an enemy aircraft with every shot, I just want them to at least have decent crippling power. You get into a fight with a Spit and put 4 20mms into him and he's just fine except for maybe a fuel leak, and minor wing damage if ur lucky, this happens far too consistently for it to just be a freak incident. One shot from his hispanos to ur wing and u've got a gargantuan hole in either one or both of ur wings, depending upon where the rounds hit. The hispanos are great, and I'm not saying they shouldnt be, I'm just saying that the Mg151 should at least be camparable. It should not be necessary to get a sustained burst in with the Mg151 in order to merely decently cripple your foe.

Regards,
Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have done extensive testing of Mg151/20 and I am strongly convinced there IS a bug considering MG151/20. Like anarchy52 said, problem is in ammo composition, which is WRONG in all Mg151/20s, but is RIGHT only in Bf109G/K 20mm gunpods. Well, at least those two ammo compositions are different.

Well, it has all been discussed in other thread, check out my shots here (you have to right click every picture and choose Show picture, because of remote linking problem or sth like this:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=2111099562&p=5

p1ngu666
02-14-2005, 08:05 AM
i think the dora has just two to help it get more performance, remmber 190a was on its limit at b17 height, so they removed a pair of cannons to lighten the plane. russians did the same, all the firepower in the world is useless, if u cant hit the target, and each weapon adds more weight and drag so your chance gets less...

BBB_Hyperion
02-14-2005, 08:59 AM
ohoh pingu666 but you know that inner guns only was prefered for fighter combat cause it was enough to cause fatal damage on 1 approach (it wouldnt make sense to have a weapon that is not capable to do the 1 pass kill when relying on fast in and out manouever would be a design flaw) not 3 or 4 like we have in this game compared with other 20 mm guns . The 190 D was able to hold wing guns as well but d9 was designed for fighter role . Other variants of the d series were more fitted for bomber interceptor role . The Main difference on the d series was its liquid cooled engine and resulting better medium alt performance as the a series compare the wings if you find differences .).

Oh and btw why would you remove outer guns of a a series plane when its task is bomber interception when after that it isnt able to perform this task anymore ?

All 20 mm guns should be really close in performance even more fatal than now . But the inability of the dm to simulate complex damage situations doesnt allow such thing. Online and Offline situation is clearly different in this regard too. While online such things like packetloss shows you multiple hits localy when watching other side recorded track we see none of them hit . Question is why is this event so present on MG151/20 maybe because of the lower rpm rate it is given resulting in less bullet packets =&gt; resulting in higher spaces between them =&gt; resulting in higher chance to miss online cause of the way the netcode sends data.

Thats one way to explain it but why doesnt the slower firing MG/FF suffer from that. We would need better analysis tools to find such things as the game provides at the moment but i doubt that the developer would like that every detail can be checked as there are surely much compromises to allow dynamic gameplay.

Fish6891
02-14-2005, 09:42 AM
pwnx0rzed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG52_Meyer
02-14-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Meyer,

You can't just say "no". The Hispano has much better AP ability than the Mg151. With minengeschoss, the Mg151 had better high explosive power. Which was will do more damage is a difficult question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh, I think i can just say "no" to the original question... perhaps you need to read it once again:

-the MG151 is definatly weaker than the Hispano. is this realistic?

faustnik
02-14-2005, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG52_Meyer:

Oh, I think i can just say "no" to the original question... perhaps you need to read it once again:

-the MG151 is _definatly weaker_ than the Hispano. is this realistic? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oops, you are correct Meyer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Mg151 is not definately weaker.

WWMaxGunz
02-14-2005, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

The trouble is, Ivan hasn't cleared it up because, in that thread, he said he would approach Oleg about it (again) and we've seen nothing since.


Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How to unravel the words?

Ask Ivan!

Hey Ivan!

Has Oleg made a reply since the post where you wrote you would ask Oleg?
That is after Oleg posted about all guns, one code.

Or have you posted news back after hearing from Oleg on the gunpods, tec, thing?

If so then what thread please?
Or you could just say the answer.

gates123
02-14-2005, 12:26 PM
I got 7 kills in 2 sorties the other night online with the Dora. Two of those being PK's with just the cowl MG's left. Two other kills were a P-63 and P-47 which are tanks but if hit well in the engine will light up like a Japanese zippo lighter. I never fire at anything past 200m and this time I had convergence set at 165m. I just can't find any reason to complain about German armament other then online, due to lag you have be precise with your aim otherwise you'll run out of 20mm pretty quick compared to the Antons.

faustnik
02-14-2005, 12:47 PM
The "This one time, in a Dora" posts have no relevance to the weapons effectiveness discussion. Test offline in arcade mode to compare weapon and aircraft DM.

Von_Rat
02-14-2005, 12:54 PM
hmmm, than how come you don't have to aim so precise with hispanos, not to even mention that it doesn't matter what distance you hit em from, just as long as you hit, you do lots more damage with hispano than mg151. close range or precise aim isn't necessary for hispano, but is for mg151, how come.

spits don't have much ammo either, less than dora i think. but these so called lag issues only seem to affect mg151 and not hispanos, how come.

Fehler
02-14-2005, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
I got 7 kills in 2 sorties the other night online with the Dora. Two of those being PK's with just the cowl MG's left. Two other kills were a P-63 and P-47 which are tanks but if hit well in the engine will light up like a Japanese zippo lighter. I never fire at anything past 200m and this time I had convergence set at 165m. I just can't find any reason to complain about German armament other then online, due to lag you have be precise with your aim otherwise you'll run out of 20mm pretty quick compared to the Antons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are just not getting it, are you? You can kill with 7mm rounds if you hit precisely. That's not the point at all.

The point here is why are the German 20mm cannon so weak compared to their allied counterparts?

People can say oh lag, packet blah bull$hit all they want, but I also flew on line in 1.2X and the 20mm were devestating for ALL cannons, not JUST the allied ones.

So has the internet changed? My shooting certainly didnt. Do I suddenly shoot better in a Spitfire or La-7 then become a crappy shot in a Dora or Bf109?

Blah, that's all B.S. And anyone that cant simply go fly the three types of weapons and not Immediately see the differences are either, 1.) ******ed 2.) Telling lies to themselves, or 3.) Have a personal agenda that does not allow them to see the truth.

All three main 20mm cannon were devestating enough to accomplish their mission they were designed for. Some did it with excellent ballistic characterists, some with excellent energy transfer. The Germans believed in explosives.

The 20mm MG151/20 was excellent in version 1.2X. What happened to the coding for that weapon?

Simply put, Just bring back the gun from version 1.2X

No debate needed. No scientific studies conducted by NASA. No 300 pages of graphs, tests, theories, etc. Just give us back the weapon that we once had and everyone will shut the "F" up, I promise. If it was "Correct" back then, then today's is wrong. If it was wrong back then, then how can we be remotely certain that today's is correct? They ARE different, so why the change?

I am really beginning to wonder why there is so much MOSS attached to this issue, and why it has yet to be resolved or commented on by the developer.

(MOSS = Mystic Order of Secret $hit)

Fish6891
02-14-2005, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:

(MOSS = Mystic Order of Secret $hit) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

gates123
02-14-2005, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm, than how come you don't have to aim so precise with hispanos, not to even mention that it doesn't matter what distance you hit em from, just as long as you hit, you do lots more damage with hispano than mg151. close range or precise aim isn't necessary for hispano, but is for mg151, how come. spits don't have much ammo either, less than dora i think. but these so called lag issues only seem to affect mg151 and not hispanos, how come. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Thats fine I'll just fly my A-6 and be happy with it and you won't have to worry about slamming people who think the MG-151 works fine.

arrow80
02-14-2005, 03:25 PM
Fehler: you are absolutely right and speak also of my experience

Gates123: wake up please and try gunpods mg151/20 and see the difference...or just simply look at the thread of tigertalon, where he absolutely precisely shows that wingmounted and other mg151/20 lack mine shells. Anyway, either the gunpods or all other mg151's are wrong. And don' try to tell anyone that they are as effective as other 20's. I can shoot down planes even with .303's...

Jaws2002
02-14-2005, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
I got 7 kills in 2 sorties the other night online with the Dora. Two of those being PK's with just the cowl MG's left. Two other kills were a P-63 and P-47 which are tanks but if hit well in the engine will light up like a Japanese zippo lighter. I never fire at anything past 200m and this time I had convergence set at 165m. I just can't find any reason to complain about German armament other then online, due to lag you have be precise with your aim otherwise you'll run out of 20mm pretty quick compared to the Antons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You people just don't get it. Dora has <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">500x20mm rounds</span> yes <span class="ev_code_RED">FIVE HUNDRED SHELLS</span>
that is more then two Spitfires.

p1ngu666
02-14-2005, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
ohoh pingu666 but you know that inner guns only was prefered for fighter combat cause it was enough to cause fatal damage on 1 approach (it wouldnt make sense to have a weapon that is not capable to do the 1 pass kill when relying on fast in and out manouever would be a design flaw) not 3 or 4 like we have in this game compared with other 20 mm guns . The 190 D was able to hold wing guns as well but d9 was designed for fighter role . Other variants of the d series were more fitted for bomber interceptor role . The Main difference on the d series was its liquid cooled engine and resulting better medium alt performance as the a series compare the wings if you find differences .).

Oh and btw why would you remove outer guns of a a series plane when its task is bomber interception when after that it isnt able to perform this task anymore ?

All 20 mm guns should be really close in performance even more fatal than now . But the inability of the dm to simulate complex damage situations doesnt allow such thing. Online and Offline situation is clearly different in this regard too. While online such things like packetloss shows you multiple hits localy when watching other side recorded track we see none of them hit . Question is why is this event so present on MG151/20 maybe because of the lower rpm rate it is given resulting in less bullet packets =&gt; resulting in higher spaces between them =&gt; resulting in higher chance to miss online cause of the way the netcode sends data.

Thats one way to explain it but why doesnt the slower firing MG/FF suffer from that. We would need better analysis tools to find such things as the game provides at the moment but i doubt that the developer would like that every detail can be checked as there are surely much compromises to allow dynamic gameplay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, 2 cannons good enuff for vs fighter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif i know a fair few 190A's had there outer guns removed. because it improve speed and handling etc http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

guns removed to help it match p51 and p47 at high alt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Atzebrueck
02-14-2005, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Thats fine I'll just fly my A-6 and be happy with it and you won't have to worry about slamming people who think the MG-151 works fine.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your kill rates do not matter :P.

As long as the MG151/20 belt doesn't contain Minengeschosse, there is a bug that needs to be fixed.
Of course, the D9 suffers from the same problem.

WWMaxGunz
02-14-2005, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Von_Rat:
hmmm, than how come you don't have to aim so precise with hispanos, not to even mention that it doesn't matter what distance you hit em from, just as long as you hit, you do lots more damage with hispano than mg151. close range or precise aim isn't necessary for hispano, but is for mg151, how come.

spits don't have much ammo either, less than dora i think. but these so called lag issues only seem to affect mg151 and not hispanos, how come. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to compare the flight time of shells to ping time of online communications to
see a good part of maybe why. To know more surely, see if longer range hispano shots
are not also dropping out. It would be a matter of net communication of passing shell
not reaching computer of target before that computer sees its plane moving aside.

If the loss of shells is on steady flying targets then I don't know... devise a test to
show it because opinion is always subjective.

faustnik
02-14-2005, 09:09 PM
I don't think the net lag issue only effects the Mg151. I've hit 109s with multiple 37mm M4 hits and watched the things fly away with no visible effect. I've always attributed this to net lag too.

VW-IceFire
02-14-2005, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
I got 7 kills in 2 sorties the other night online with the Dora. Two of those being PK's with just the cowl MG's left. Two other kills were a P-63 and P-47 which are tanks but if hit well in the engine will light up like a Japanese zippo lighter. I never fire at anything past 200m and this time I had convergence set at 165m. I just can't find any reason to complain about German armament other then online, due to lag you have be precise with your aim otherwise you'll run out of 20mm pretty quick compared to the Antons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You people just don't get it. Dora has <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">500x20mm rounds</span> yes <span class="ev_code_RED">FIVE HUNDRED SHELLS</span>
that is more then two Spitfires. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I get more out of my 120 rpg in the Spitfire than I do in the Doras MG151/20s. So it really does need that extra ammo to even be in range of competition http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Hispano is still far more powerful but the MG151/20 is still weak.

Thats not really the issue. The issue is this:
The MG151/20 gunpods on the 109 have the Mine shells in the loadout which is right. The rest of the MG151/20s do not which is wrong.

Von_Rat
02-15-2005, 01:28 AM
gates123,,,, im sorry you feel it was a slam, all i asked was..... how come.

Kwiatos
02-15-2005, 04:01 AM
When i get PF ver. 3.0 I managed to shot down in Fw-190 D-9 - 10 planes (spitfires, La etc) in 1 online flight ( 1 pass 1 kill). That was my best score. Now in D-9 its hard to shot down 1 plane in single flight. Weapon effectivity get worse after next patches expecially german 20mm are now nonsense.

BAG.LordDante
02-15-2005, 04:54 AM
first off all my congrautulations to all off u 10 planes in one sortie killers !!
gee i really $uck!

If i engage a enemy fighter in an Anton and i hit em really good from the side ( hits all over the plane and cocpit) and all that happens is a fuel leak well then its no wonder that im a little bit upset.
if u try to shoot him down from dead six its a waste of ammo .
at least 4 from 5 times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
02-15-2005, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I think Ivan already wrapped this into the other Mg151 questions thread.

One is enough, even for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trouble is, Ivan hasn't cleared it up because, in that thread, he said he would approach Oleg about it (again) and we've seen nothing since.


Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can you be so sure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

Be sure of what? That you would ask or that there hasn't been a reply?

As I recall, in the other thread, Oleg said that all LW 20mm was modelled by "same code."

We then had another burst of posts followed by you appearing to suggest that you would approach Oleg about the problem *again*. I was under the impression that if you asked again, you would get a reply that was passed on.

We've seen nothing come of that. That's what I was referring to.

Now, of course, several things could have happened (not exhaustive):

a. Something has been posted but I've just not seen it (if so, link please)
b. Something has been said directly to you but you've not passed it on (if so, why not?).
c. Nothing at all has happened (you never asked)

Which one would be most correct?

Cheers,
Norris

carguy_
02-15-2005, 10:07 AM
Bah as I`ve used the weapon on G6 for 2 years now I can say that MG151/20 is weaker than .50cal or Hispano at ranges greater than 120m.In B&Z tactics it is very important cuz you have to either make precise calculations where your plane will meet with the turning enemy,everything happening @speeds greater than 500m.At this speed most ppl will not be able to get withing optimal effectiveness range so most shots are fired at ranges exceeding by far the optimal.

That said, packed loss still denies vital shots from 70m at 80deg firing angle.


As for comparing Hispano with MG151 I recommend taking P38 and firing SINGLE Hispano and see the results.

tigertalon
02-15-2005, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
As for comparing Hispano with MG151 I recommend taking P38 and firing SINGLE Hispano and see the results. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And try it offline so there can not be "packet loss" problem involved.

VW-IceFire
02-15-2005, 03:56 PM
I went and did a basic test. I took a Yak, made him the incredibly stupid rookie variety and sat on his six in a 109G-6 with 151/20 gunpods.

I tapped the gunpods a couple of times. Hit, small explosion. Hit, large explosion (nearly obscured the target). The larger explosion took the rudder and elevator off in one blast. I then opened up full fire. Total destruction of target aircraft achieved very rapidly...almost as good as a Hispano if not pretty much the same.

Tested again with the FW190 and the outer wing guns...tap, small explosion, tap small explosion...no larger explosions of any kind like on the 109s gunpods.

There's a definate difference in visual representation and there appears to be a difference in destructive power that can only be demonstrated by going out and doing it.

chaikanut
02-15-2005, 04:09 PM
To all those providing input on ww2 shell/kill effectiveness: Read in pilot accounts on their training on deflection shooting: They didnt shoot until they were in the correct distance (judging from the gunsight) and had pulled perfect deflection (counting aircraft diameters). How many people do this online? I guess only a handful, if any. I personally never calculate, just use intuition and watch the tracer and therefore need more shots than an adequately trained ww2 pilot. Those crackshots I have seen in tracks use the 109 with single 20mm and have perfect gunnery, I bet they never complain about effectiveness.

carguy_
02-15-2005, 05:16 PM
Completely different from what I`ve read and saw.Most,really most accounts I read was about a pilot puuling a 5sec burst from 200m without any shell hitting the target.AFAIK a hit percentage of 8% was considered VERY good.


Also I have plenty of LW guncams where a guy shoots and shoots and nothing,he gets in a point blank range and hen lands some hits.


Plz take into account that we read mostly aces accounts,not your average pilot.Aces had a common sense in getting in effective range and only then shooting.

This is at least in combat conditions.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-15-2005, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chaikanut:
To all those providing input on ww2 shell/kill effectiveness: Read in pilot accounts on their training on deflection shooting: They didnt shoot until they were in the correct distance (judging from the gunsight) and had pulled perfect deflection (counting aircraft diameters). How many people do this online? I guess only a handful, if any. I personally never calculate, just use intuition and watch the tracer and therefore need more shots than an adequately trained ww2 pilot. Those crackshots I have seen in tracks use the 109 with single 20mm and have perfect gunnery, I bet they never complain about effectiveness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be all well and good except that programs like Sturmolog tell us all we need to know about gun effectiveness. One such example being my 24 hits on a Yak and not downing it. Another Yak downed my teammate in a 190 with 5 hits recorded.

"But that means nothing", I hear you say, and I agree...until you being to look at repeated instances of it.

24x20mm hits not downing a WW2 fighter? Bomber, maybe. Fighter, unlikely: delta wonder wood(tm) or otherwise.

Ta,
norris

chaikanut
02-16-2005, 02:18 AM
Most people complain on ineffectiveness compared to the hispano, which feels like a death ray. Compared to the shvak it is not very different if you hit from other than directly 6'.

I think in the end, the whole problem is due to the damage model and AP effect: Just compare 13mm german to 12mm russian and see their difference in velocity. 13mm is like paintball and has horrible trajectory.

edit: I am talking about both trajectory and damage.

VFA195-MaxPower
02-16-2005, 02:55 AM
Trajectory is not the issue. The issue is only the presence or absence of minengeschosse shells.

When MG shells hit aircraft, they seem to disturb the flight path of them somewhat. Correct me if I am wrong. I have opened up with 30mm and 20mm cannons on a number of planes and it looks like the hand of God gave the thing a good swat.

Since I have heard of this debate I have done some online and offline tests and it seems to be true. It seems to take more passes for to destroy a a20 with the a series wing cannons than the bf109 gunpods. Moreover, the 109 gunpods share elements common to the a series 30mm cannon impacts ie. huge blasts and the flightpath disturbance. The FW190 gunpods display none of these effects. Case and point, the all mg151's available for the focke wulf (including twin linked wing pods) and the bf109's mg151 nose gun are not coded to produce minengeschosse effects.

If this is all subjective, I can accept that. I would just like to know either way. I think the latest thing that Oleg said about the mg151/20's was in the thread about the fuel leaks of the focke wulf... unless someone was ridiculing him in that thread... I haven't really been on here long enough to know the individuals that populate the board.

Heinz_Schuss
02-17-2005, 09:03 PM
I think that's entirely correct. The loadout in the belts are probably the same, as Oleg said, but the minengeschoss round do not explode if fired from a aircraft's internal guns, only the gunpods.

The relative damage potential of the MG151/20 minengeschoss rounds and the Hispano is fairly easy to calculate - see: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm Ithink they had it somewhere in the links on the lower part of the page.

I have on more than a few occasions seen my first tracer from a MG151/20 hit just behind the leading edge of a Yak9's wing (from 90 degrees above) and an explosion, and then nothing , nothing , nothing as the gun keeps firing, and finally another tracer hit and explosion on the leading edge of the Yak's flap. Between the tracer rounds are supposed to be three other rounds - two of them, minengeschoss, but no damage or explosions occur. Either these rounds pass through the wing without exploding, or they evaporate - ther's nowhere else for them to go.

In other word, only the HE(T) tracing rounds are exploding. this then leads to the difficulty of getting hits and damage in online play where packet loss can also create further reductions in hit probability.

The rather strange IMHO loadout of the ammo belts as mentioned on another thread was:

AP, HE(T), HE(T), HE(M), HE(M)

I find this strange because I do not see two tracing rounds right after each other and then more firing of the three non-tracing rounds. What I get is a equally spaced sequence of tracing rounds and other non-visble rounds.

WWMaxGunz
02-18-2005, 03:24 AM
From the other thread comparing gunpods to other 151's you can see the rounds hit and
explode plus the arcade mode arrows... shells 4 and 5 are not the same and it is not
about duds when they explode like that.

EDIT: and it is only 109 gunpods that have the good effect shells at all! Not 190.

tigertalon
02-18-2005, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz_Schuss:
I think that's entirely correct. The loadout in the belts are probably the same, as Oleg said, but the minengeschoss round do not explode if fired from a aircraft's internal guns, only the gunpods.

The relative damage potential of the MG151/20 minengeschoss rounds and the Hispano is fairly easy to calculate - see: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm Ithink they had it somewhere in the links on the lower part of the page.

I have on more than a few occasions seen my first tracer from a MG151/20 hit just behind the leading edge of a Yak9's wing (from 90 degrees above) and an explosion, and then nothing , nothing , nothing as the gun keeps firing, and finally another tracer hit and explosion on the leading edge of the Yak's flap. Between the tracer rounds are supposed to be three other rounds - two of them, minengeschoss, but no damage or explosions occur. Either these rounds pass through the wing without exploding, or they evaporate - ther's nowhere else for them to go.

In other word, only the HE(T) tracing rounds are exploding. this then leads to the difficulty of getting hits and damage in online play where packet loss can also create further reductions in hit probability.

The rather strange IMHO loadout of the ammo belts as mentioned on another thread was:

AP, HE(T), HE(T), HE(M), HE(M)

I find this strange because I do not see two tracing rounds right after each other and then more firing of the three non-tracing rounds. What I get is a equally spaced sequence of tracing rounds and other non-visble rounds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have done an extensive testing of Mg151/20 ammo composition. Check out here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=2111099562&p=5

LeadSpitter_
02-18-2005, 04:31 PM
who cries most?

carguy_
02-18-2005, 04:49 PM
Luv ur P0Sts Leadspitter,very amusing.

Heinz_Schuss
02-18-2005, 07:16 PM
Ah yes, thanks tigertalon. I did see that thread, but when it was still only 2 or 3 pages. Very good work.

I agree with your conclusions - it's definitely born out by my own experiences.

I was assuming the HE rounds were the tracers as it was initially thought in a few early posts (and was during the Battle of Britain). I don't know about any ammo after that, but it's not really important in this discussion.

The idea that the ammo code may be resetting after the third round sounds pretty good to me. I had a very similar thing happen in a program (not written by me) used in an embedded micro-controller. The thing reset the error check flag every time it ran, effectively never seeing any errors at all. 8) It took two years before it was noticed!

I will post in the other thread from now on, should I feel the need to muddy the waters some more.

Cheers
Schuss

NorrisMcWhirter
02-19-2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Luv ur P0Sts Leadspitter,very amusing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not as amusing as Oleg's admission as to who cries the most http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris