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Tux_UK
06-26-2010, 10:41 AM
Hi all,

very quick question to start with because I have to shoot out in a moment - Can anyone help me find the '109 that was being flown by Hans 'Assi' Hahn on 21/07/1941 please? I have a personal reason for being interested and will give more info when I return in case anyone else is curious. Suffice it to say that if, by any chance, anyone here would know where to find the Stab III./JG 2 combat report for the action near Saint Omer on the evening of 21st July 1941 (if it exists) I would be extremely grateful for any help.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,

Tux

P.S. I accidentally posted this in the paint schemes forum earlier on. Could a mod please remove it from there? Thanks.

Tux_UK
06-26-2010, 10:41 AM
Hi all,

very quick question to start with because I have to shoot out in a moment - Can anyone help me find the '109 that was being flown by Hans 'Assi' Hahn on 21/07/1941 please? I have a personal reason for being interested and will give more info when I return in case anyone else is curious. Suffice it to say that if, by any chance, anyone here would know where to find the Stab III./JG 2 combat report for the action near Saint Omer on the evening of 21st July 1941 (if it exists) I would be extremely grateful for any help.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Cheers,

Tux

P.S. I accidentally posted this in the paint schemes forum earlier on. Could a mod please remove it from there? Thanks.

Tux_UK
06-27-2010, 02:07 PM
Ok, some detail, now I have time:

July 21st, 1941. 12 Spitfires MkIIa of 19 Squadron took off from West Malling at 1955 hrs in company with 65 and 266 Squadrons with instructions to cover the retreat of a force of bombers from the French Coast. "B" Flight was in the lead and "A" Flight followed above and behind. Flying as 'Red 2', the wingman to "A" Flight's leader, was P/O Michael Duncan Tucker, my great-uncle.

Approximately one hour later, in the area between Montreuil (East of Paris) and Saint Omer and still in his early twenties, my great uncle died.

I want to find out more, down to the slightest detail. I know all of the above, which I learned by paying to download the relevant 19 Sqn combat report, and that my great-uncle is now buried in a german war cemetery in Becklingen. I know that F/O Harold Oxlin was also lost by 19 Sqn during the same combat, but was buried in the UK. Nobody in 19 Sqn saw what happened to either of them.

I know that the enemy aircraft encountered were Bf 109Es and Fs, according to the pilots, although my historical knowledge would lend me to believe they would have been mostly, if not all, Fs. I know that the german aircraft involved will have been flying for either JG26 'Schlageter' or JG2 'Udet'. I know that Hans 'Assi' Hahn was in charge of JG2 at the time, flew with Stab.III/JG2 on the day in question and shot down one spitfire at 0850 in the morning and one at 2045 in the evening. Significant?

I looked for 266 Sqn and 65 Sqn's combat reports, but the Public Records Office listings for those dates are, as I found out when I had bought them, for the 31st, not the 21st of July 1941 (dodgy handwriting on the original form). I therefore don't know if either Squadron lost or destroyed any aircraft during this combat.

I cannot find any Luftwaffe records for 21/07/1941 - sorties flown, units involved, losses, anything - except for the note on a website dedicated to Hans Hahn that lists the kill he scored on 21/07/1941 as a Spitfire shot down at 2045 in the area of Watten (almost directly between Montreuil and St Omer).

I want to find out more about this day and, in particular, put together the jigsaw of my Great-Uncle Michael's fate. I know it may turn out to be impossible to ascertain exactly who killed him, but I want to try. I also want to find out which Spitfire he was flying when he was killed (ID code QV/? and registration number) and the '109 that his victor was flying, if possible. Can anyone shed any light whatsoever on the events of that day, or recommend what my next step should be in finding out what happened?

I would attach the pdf of 19 Sqn's combat report if I knew how. If anyone is interested in helping and wants to read the thing for themselves I can always email it. There are more details included than I have listed here.

Thanks in advance for any help whatsoever.

Best regards,

Tux/ Owen Tucker

CUJO_1970
06-27-2010, 07:16 PM
I'll look and see if I can find anything in Caldwell's "JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe", as he has a pretty detailed day to day history of JG26.

WTE_Galway
06-27-2010, 07:39 PM
He seems to have achieved his 32nd and 33rd victories that day:

I presume you have found this link:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hahn.html

The following profile is dated "Autumn 1941" :

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding...%201941%2000_jpg.htm (http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding_the_West/Bf-109F%20JG2.3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20%27Assi%27%20Hahn/pages/Messerschmitt%20Bf-109F%20JG2_3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20Assi%20Hahn%20W_N r%207183%20France%201941%2000_jpg.htm)

Photos of one of his aircraft from late 1941:

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding...%201941%2002_jpg.htm (http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding_the_West/Bf-109F%20JG2.3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20%27Assi%27%20Hahn/pages/Messerschmitt%20Bf-109F%20JG2_3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20Assi%20Hahn%20W_N r%207183%20France%201941%2002_jpg.htm)


http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding...%201941%2001_jpg.htm (http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding_the_West/Bf-109F%20JG2.3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20%27Assi%27%20Hahn/pages/Messerschmitt%20Bf-109F%20JG2_3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20Assi%20Hahn%20W_N r%207183%20France%201941%2001_jpg.htm)


other info here:

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding...%27%20Hahn/index.htm (http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding_the_West/Bf-109F%20JG2.3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20%27Assi%27%20Hahn/index.htm)

Tux_UK
06-28-2010, 05:04 AM
Thanks Cujo and Galway - I really appreciate it.

Galway, I had found the luftwaffe.cz link, yes. That's where I saw the listing of Hahn's kill around the time Michael Tucker was killed. The asisbiz links are great for gathering info about his machines at the time. Two things:

1. The third from last photo posted on the last link you gave ( http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding...%27%20Hahn/index.htm (http://asisbiz.com/il2/Holding_the_West/Bf-109F%20JG2.3%20%28%28+%20$Hans%20%27Assi%27%20Hahn/index.htm) ) proves that 109Es and Fs were present simultaneously at least at the location from which Hahn was based (E in the background, tailplane of an F in the foreground). That makes the 19 Sqn report that they encountered both Es and Fs in the same formation slightly more believeable. I had previously thought the Luftwaffe would have avoided flying both together in the same formation in order to maintain the Bf 109F's performance advantage in the cruise.

2. The colour profile is great, but in both of the photographs of the same machine it appears to me that the front half of the spinner is painted a different colour - maybe blue or red. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Also, can any Luftwaffe camo officionados confirm that the spinner would have been (at least half) black and not RLM 70 Schwarzgrun at this time?


This is great, guys - every piece of info I see feels like a step closer to knowing the full story. Does anyone know what kind of record I would have to look up to find out which of 19 Sqn's Spitfires Michael was flying on the day?

Cheers,

Tux

Banger2004
06-28-2010, 09:20 AM
Perhaps you can find a copy of

'Royal Air Force Fighter Command losses of the Second World War, vol.1: operational losses - aircraft and crews, 1939-1941' by Norman Franks.

I have not myself seen a copy, but apparently it gives details of losses and where possible the circumstances.

The fellows at http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php also seem to be mines of information, should you join I reckon you will get some help.

Banger2004
06-28-2010, 04:09 PM
Have been looking around, and found the following:

http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/p005.htm

It seems that all Mk11 Spits were designated P7280-P8729.

Scroll down to Spitfire 11a P7890. The date does not quite match (a month too early, perhaps a typo?), but it is 19 Squadron, and a PO Tucker in the St Omer area.

If you Google Spitfire P7890, some interesting stuff comes up, giving the possibility of the aircraft being QV-F.

CUJO_1970
06-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Tux,

I can't seem to find my JG26 book (recently moved to new house) but I'll keep looking.

JG/26 was *very* involved in the St. Omer region at this time, in fact they were even called the "St. Omer Boys" in addition to the Abbeville Kids. Just something to think about, but I would look at JG26 before any other unit. (My opinion)


their technical officer was the main guy that got the 109F series back on track after some wing structural problems.

Stogut
06-28-2010, 09:13 PM
I have the JG26 War Diaries and there is a mention of an encounter (presumed to be Third Gruppe) in the Montreuil area on that date at 2010. The book says that it was a Rodeo and that there were 3 spitfires shot down for 1 loss. The only known claim from the diary lists a victory by Uffz. Gottfried Dietze. This aircraft was listed as a spitfire from 616 Sqd.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 08:54 AM
Thanks guys, this response is fantastic.

Banger, I will look up that reference and I have registered at rafcommands. It looks like the perfect place to glean any additional info that may be floating about out there.

I scrolled through the list of Spitfire IIs (a fascinating resource in itself) and I cannot describe the feeling it gives you to see your own name crop up. There's something surreal about the fact that details of Michael's name and fate have been recorded on this website for so long without my family's knowledge that gives me a great deal of hope of finding out more information. And yes, it seems to be a typo - the date was July 21st, not June, as far as I know. I have emailed the site owner to clarify though. I'll inject more energy into my search for his Spitfire now - it must be listed somewhere which 19 Sqn code P7890 was given...

I read into the possibility that P7890 was QV-F but it seems that QV-F was shot down sometime after August '41, so too late to be Michael's machine.

Cujo, I really appreciate your ongoing efforts. I'll devote some more emphasis of my own search from JG2 to JG26 as well, thanks. To be honest, when I first found out where Michael was killed I instantly thought of JG26 based on my knowledge of their area of operations. It was only upon finding the explicit reference to Stab.III/JG2's operations (and victories) in the Watten area on the evening of 21/07/41 that I was forced to challenge my previous assumption.

Stogut, how can I access that text? Is the relevant passage online anywhere or do I need to find the book for sale? It's a fascinating note, although it sounds like it occurred about half an hour before Michael was shot down. Perhaps JG26 fought a Rodeo involving 616 Sqn that accompanied/ preceeded the bombers' outgoing flight to France? If JG26's participants returned to base immediately afterwards perhaps elements of JG2 arrived in the area around 2045 when the bombers were returning and 19, 266 and 65 Sqns were on covering patrol? This could be a fascinating story even without my own personal interest...

horseback
06-29-2010, 09:56 AM
Tux, you might want to re-think the QV-F thing. If your great-uncle's Spit II was downed in June or even July with that identifier, it is quite possible for the Squadron to have re-assigned 'F' to another Spitfire less than a month later. An F is much easier to mask off & paint than say, a Q or an R.

It is also quite common for picture captions to be wildly inaccurate, even in otherwise well-researched and detailed works. I have at least four or five different examples of a 'stock' picture showing up in various publications with several captions identifying different times, places, or pilots. Apparently, the pictures sections are not always as carefully edited as the text sections.

In some cases, an early misidentification could become 'entrenched' in historians' minds, so I'd stick with text information over the pictorial whenever they contradict each other.

Also, remember that American writers will write June 8th 1941 as 6/8/41 while the European notation would go 8/6/41; this can lead to other confusions.

In short, never confuse research with Gospel, and always apply Occam's Razor when the 'facts' don't seem to mesh.

cheers

horseback

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 10:11 AM
Cheers Horseback. Yeah, well that's the thing; P7890 could have been QV-F, but the fact that the QV-F referenced earlier was shot down at the wrong time means that P7890 wasn't that QV-F. So yes, you're right, P7890 could have been QV-F, but there is no longer any reason to think it was QV-F rather than any other letter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I considered the American way of writing a date, but there is no 21st month, so I think it was a typo. You're right that one must be careful of that particular source of confusion in the general course of research though.

I'll go and have another look at the case for QV-F - always good to make sure you understand an issue like that thoroughly.

Tux

Xiolablu3
06-29-2010, 01:59 PM
I would be pretty sure that the Luftwaffe would have used different models of Bf109 in the same battle.

I seem to remember that Heinz Knocke was given an old 109E when others in his flight were flying 109F's

Just like SPitfire V's and IX's were used togther, so would 109E's and F's if thats what was available.

Banger2004
06-29-2010, 03:27 PM
I find this all quite fascinating. I look forward to seeing how your search pans out. The info you seek must be available somewhere, and I am sure you will get there.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 05:17 PM
Yeah, come to think of it Es were probably still very common. I just always think of Summer '41 as the Friedrich's summer.

I've got another lead or two: The following kills were scored by the Luftwaffe on the evening of the relevant date. I don't know if the list is exhaustive or not:

Hptm. Hans Hahn (#33/108) - Stab III./J.G. 26 - Spitfire - 20:45 - Watten
Fw. GŁnther Seeger (#9/56) - Stab/J.G. 2 - Spitfire - 20:45 - 5 km SE Boulogne
Uffz. Gottfried Dietze (#1) - 2./J.G. 26 - Spitfire - 21:00 - SW Cap Gris Nez

I also now know that 19 Sqn were covering the retreat of 3 Short Stirlings of XV Squadron that had just been attacking Mazingarbe as part of Circus 55.

[url=http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107219320747574346441.00048a3279c5ca6a164b4&ll=51.740636,1.307373&spn=3.306526,9.700928&z=7[/url]

Above is a link to a map I am making. The green markers mark the Stirling's home base and target. The Blue markers mark where 19 Sqn took off from and the route they flew until they encountered enemy aircraft en route to St Omer. Blue markers are also used where Spitfires are claimed shot down. Red markers are used for the flak areas around Le Touquet and Boulogne and for the Bf 109F kill claimed by 19 Sqn 5 miles north of Montreuil.

Stogut
06-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Tux, JG26 War Diary is atwo volume set available at Amazon. I probably wasn't precise in my last post. The time I gave of 2010 was the time that the alarmstart was issued. The book states that there were four Gruppen that responded. Sometimes "official" reports are neither complete or accurate.
Edit: Dietze's claim was confirmed. There are photos of the spifire in the book. The spitfire pilot's name was Mabbett.

WTE_Galway
06-29-2010, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I would be pretty sure that the Luftwaffe would have used different models of Bf109 in the same battle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even in the same flight. I have seen photos of mixed Schwarms with E and F models flying together.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 05:40 PM
Btw Banger I've seen this page at refcommands:

http://www.rafcommands.com/for...ficer+Michael+Tucker (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197&highlight=Pilot+Officer+Michael+Tucker)

I haven't been accepted as a member yet so I can't post on this board. Is it you who started the topic? Either way 'Mosquito' seems to think that the fact that Michael was involved in Circus 55 means he 'got lost' over the sea and was washed up near the Frisian Islands. I have no idea where that information comes from and would be much obliged if you could ask for me please?

Thanks.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stogut:
Tux, JG26 War Diary is atwo volume set available at Amazon. I probably wasn't precise in my last post. The time I gave of 2010 was the time that the alarmstart was issued. The book states that there were four Gruppen that responded. Sometimes "official" reports are neither complete or accurate.
Edit: Dietze's claim was confirmed. There are photos of the spifire in the book. The spitfire pilot's name was Mabbett. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok thanks, I'll look them up.

The fact that Dietze's claim was confirmed as being Mabbett is fascinating. I was sent the RAF summary of Circus 55 today and Mabbett is recorded as having been flying W3376, a cannon-armed Mk IIb. I'll update the map I'm making accordingly.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I would be pretty sure that the Luftwaffe would have used different models of Bf109 in the same battle.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even in the same flight. I have seen photos of mixed Schwarms with E and F models flying together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I doubted, but it's great to know the 19 Sqn combat report I'm reading may be accurate in this regard. Thanks for the info Galway.

Tux_UK
06-29-2010, 05:53 PM
The two other Luftwaffe victories I have listed in my rapidly-expanding notes are as follows:

Hptm. Hans Hahn, #33 of an eventual 108. Flying for Stab III./JG 2 claimed a Spitfire over Watten at 2045. Watten is a little way away from Montreuil and, if it is a 19 Sqn pilot who fell to Hahn then he must have got separated from the rest, perhaps with a companion or two, during the initial combat and continued towards St Omer before turning towards home.

Fw. GŁnther Seeger, #9 of an eventual 56. Flying for Stab/JG 2 claimed a Spitfire 5 km SE of Boulogne at 2045. This area is in the right place for a 19 Sqn pilot heading home after the initial combat, or if the initial combat 'drifted' NW at all.

So it looks like I need to find some more detailed JG 2 records after all...?

WTE_Galway
06-29-2010, 07:58 PM
It may be worth finding a copy of this:


http://www.eagle-editions.com/Assi%20color%20cover.jpg

Tux_UK
06-30-2010, 05:31 AM
Cheers Galway, I'll look into it.

Update map link: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/....306526,9.700928&z=7 (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107219320747574346441.00048a3279c5ca6a164b4&ll=51.740636,1.307373&spn=3.306526,9.700928&z=7)

Banger2004
06-30-2010, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tux_UK:
Btw Banger I've seen this page at refcommands:

http://www.rafcommands.com/for...ficer+Michael+Tucker (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197&highlight=Pilot+Officer+Michael+Tucker)

I haven't been accepted as a member yet so I can't post on this board. Is it you who started the topic? Either way 'Mosquito' seems to think that the fact that Michael was involved in Circus 55 means he 'got lost' over the sea and was washed up near the Frisian Islands. I have no idea where that information comes from and would be much obliged if you could ask for me please?

Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Tux, but it was not me who started the thread on that forum. I never got around to enrolling. I meant to, as I was researching my fathers RAF career a while ago, but somehow other things took precedence. I mentioned the forum because I was mightily impressed with the responses other posters received to their questions.

It is intriguing that 'Mosquito' seems to have some info, hopefully he will be around when you do get to post. It would certainly not be beyond the realms of possibilty that PO Tucker tried to get back across the Channel with combat damage, but sadly never made it. Maybe 'Mosquito' can add to your rapidly growing pool of knowledge. It seems many of the members have encyclopaedic knowledge/resources.

One thought that does occur to me, is why he is buried so far from the combat area? Were his remains buried near St Omer, and then re-interred at a later date? Or was his body indeed found near the Frisian Islands, much nearer to Becklingen. Was the wreck of his aircraft ever found?

Batman691
01-25-2011, 09:37 AM
Dear Tux,
I have a lot of information on your great uncle,M D 'Tommy' Tucker as I writing a book on 19 Squadron.
Please e-mail me direct at henderson_rl@hotmail.com and I can send you extracts from my book.
Roger Henderon

PS My Uncle was a 19 Squadron pilot who 'disappeared' in 1942.

Batman691
01-25-2011, 09:39 AM
While I rememeber, the body was re-interred after the war to avoid the need to tend isolated graves here and there.
Best wishes,
Roger

PhantomKira
01-25-2011, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The info you seek must be available somewhere </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do yourself a favor, and look for the British material first. Not that it's definitely the case here, but the war caused the loss of a LOT of written information in Germany, including my family's link between the German side and the section that moved to Denmark. We know the link exists, but the specifics have been lost due to the war. Good luck! I love doing research such as this, too.