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djhendrix
09-13-2011, 07:47 AM
Hi, I've never posted or looked here before but I thought of, what i think is, a nice question.

Everyone probably knows the line from the game; 'nothing is true, everything is permitted'. Well it sort of doesn't make sense to me.

The way I see it, Everything is true (and obviously everything is permitted) because for something to be true it simply has to exist. Therefore, everything is true.

Obviously someone can tell a lie but i don't think that's what the statement is getting at. To say that nothing is true would imply that everything is false and that to me is impossible.

When you think about it in terms of physical things instead of just language I think it makes more sense. To say that everything is true, to me would mean that everything you experience is truth and therefore nothing is false because it is impossible to experience 'false'.

I think this is a good documentary to watch, to understand this point of view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI0jKYHImvI

I think it would be cool if the future assassins i.e. Desmond, Lucy, William, Shaun etc... started saying the line 'everything is true and permitted' i know it sounds a bit crap compared to 'nothing is true, everything is permitted' but it would be cool if they roped in a bit of storyline explaining why the future assassin's changed it. maybe even something to do with the mentor from 'The Fall' (the comic book series)

Any thoughts on this would be fun to hear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 07:47 AM
Hi, I've never posted or looked here before but I thought of, what i think is, a nice question.

Everyone probably knows the line from the game; 'nothing is true, everything is permitted'. Well it sort of doesn't make sense to me.

The way I see it, Everything is true (and obviously everything is permitted) because for something to be true it simply has to exist. Therefore, everything is true.

Obviously someone can tell a lie but i don't think that's what the statement is getting at. To say that nothing is true would imply that everything is false and that to me is impossible.

When you think about it in terms of physical things instead of just language I think it makes more sense. To say that everything is true, to me would mean that everything you experience is truth and therefore nothing is false because it is impossible to experience 'false'.

I think this is a good documentary to watch, to understand this point of view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI0jKYHImvI

I think it would be cool if the future assassins i.e. Desmond, Lucy, William, Shaun etc... started saying the line 'everything is true and permitted' i know it sounds a bit crap compared to 'nothing is true, everything is permitted' but it would be cool if they roped in a bit of storyline explaining why the future assassin's changed it. maybe even something to do with the mentor from 'The Fall' (the comic book series)

Any thoughts on this would be fun to hear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

eagleforlife1
09-13-2011, 07:51 AM
My head hurts.

itsamea-mario
09-13-2011, 07:56 AM
I get what you're saying, but I doubt ubi are going to change their little catchphrase.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 08:36 AM
hahaha no i seriously doubt they will but I can still have my fun and imagine lol sounds a bit unstable lol

kalo.yanis
09-13-2011, 08:44 AM
I think the "nothing is true" part is meant to emphasise on how assassin's don't take the truth for granted, as it can be easily altered.

Here's a quote by Ezio in case that was confusing:

"Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember: Nothing is true. Where other men are limited by law or morality, remember: Everything is permitted."

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 09:46 AM
yeah i always had major trouble with ezio and the renaissance assassin's interpretation of the phrase. They totally think of it in terms of language. Men following the truth, to me, implies following ideas and doctrines (language), they do just see it in terms of don't believe anything you hear.

But for some reason i get the feeling that the actual meaning (detailed extensively in the first game) was more to do with existence and experience as opposed to just the things people say/write and whether they are true or not, i just can't remember the whole philosophy of the first game lol.

certainly the renaissance assassin's interpreted the 'everything is permitted' part totally wrong. Practically the entire first game was devoted to understanding that 'everything is permitted' does not grant you freedom to commit whatever act you like...

worsecuve
09-13-2011, 09:57 AM
Well when they say "Nothing is true Everything is permitted" i look at it like this

The Assassins vs Templars is a secret war noone knows about right?

so that means that to normal everyday people everything they know about the world is a lie and they do not see what is really going on.

As for the everything is permitted part i think it just means they do what ever t takes to win the war ( Assassins)

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 10:19 AM
aye, that's one of the reasons i think the modern day assassin's would change it. According to the mentor they had stopped being violent.

I don't see why the assassin's would choose a defining catchphrase that doesn't really apply to them (they are not in the position of ignorance that the general public is.

I'm fairly sure now 'nothing is true' simply means that; all the ideas of how the world is or how it should be are all opinions of men and none of them are 'true'.

And the 'everything is permitted' bit means that the world will be what it is regardless of the opinions of men. Therefore, a man can make a law that can be broken but a natural law can not be broken. everything that is permitted by natural law has the potential to happen. What this has to do with the morality of the assassin's order i can't remember (from the first game).

SpeedyHarambe
09-13-2011, 10:36 AM
I advise you to read the book Alamut by Vladimir Bartol. That's the book where they based assassin's creed and you can find the meaning of the line in there.

It's a pretty good read, everyone should try it.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 10:39 AM
I'll look into it but for the time being would you mind summarising the books perspective on the line? lol

lukaszep
09-13-2011, 10:46 AM
I thought the phrase meant, that the assassins should't let themselves be confined to what we know an reality, and to not dismiss anything as being false just because it's unknown.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 11:43 AM
Yeah i definitely think that's part of it. In fact, what i said implies it; 'the world will be what it is regardless of the opinions of men'

In the context of what you said; something will exist regardless of whether you think it can or not...

ProdiGurl
09-13-2011, 11:48 AM
lol you hit on an issue I took when I saw the first assassin ceremony in ACB & it was an instant pet peeve (no matter how kool it sounded).

Actually if nothing is true, then even the statement "nothing is true" can't be true either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif lol

But definitely truth exists outside of what we think or know about it. Something can be true that we disbelieve . . we're just wrong.
Things are true whether we like it or not.

ProdiGurl
09-13-2011, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I thought the phrase meant, that the assassins should't let themselves be confined to what we know an reality, and to not dismiss anything as being false just because it's unknown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't remember the 2 full statements that were quoted by Ezio in the game . . there was some context laid on 'nothing is true/everything is permitted" quote, yes.

I think it's when they do the full ceremony w/ his sister, Claudia towards the middle of the game? There's a longer version of this given.

I don't think the creed actually means nothing can be literally [or absolutely] true. If so, even their missions & purpose can be wrong & they can't know what's true or not (right or wrong).

ProdiGurl
09-13-2011, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">worsecuve

Posted Tue September 13 2011 08:57
. . .

As for the everything is permitted part i think it just means they do what ever t takes to win the war ( Assassins) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>&gt;&gt;

From the longer version they quote, I do remember that they name specifics of law & morality that others are constricted & restricted by that they are not.

Morality and Law.
Morality being, they support & use prostitution, deception/lying & murder to get their agenda accomplished (as they set their missions)
and Law meaning, they'll break the law where others won't. (imo)

(sorry to post 3 in a row, I just replied as I continued reading the posts).

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 12:03 PM
yeah this one gets it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif it was when they had the assassin's ceremony when it hit me lol

hope 'prodigurl' doesn't refer to protestant in any sectarian way! lol

ProdiGurl
09-13-2011, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by djhendrix:
yeah this one gets it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif it was when they had the assassin's ceremony when it hit me lol

hope 'prodigurl' doesn't refer to protestant in any sectarian way! lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, actually I meant it as a condensed Prodigal girl, so religion isn't far off base there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But ya, ACB was my very first AC experience about 2 months ago & I got hooked immediately, & that ceremony really struck me right away.
Funny how different people pick up on different things.

But ya, I think the one longer ceremony w/ Claudia in it (where Machiaveli *sp promotes Ezio too) explains what they mean by the nothing is true/everything is permitted.
I wish I could remember the first line. I'm sure somebody has it Youtubed somewhere lol.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 12:26 PM
lol that's cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i'm actually from northern ireland and we get tonnes of knobs here who have some weird culture of animosity towards people of other communities.

have you played the first game? It's actually my favourite one; it's full of philosophy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i think it's the best game to play to understand that statement. All the conversations with Al Mualim and all that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but the gameplay gets a bit repetitive so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

blazefp
09-13-2011, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by djhendrix:
have you played the first game? It's actually my favourite one; it's full of philosophy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i think it's the best game to play to understand that statement. All the conversations with Al Mualim and all that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but the gameplay gets a bit repetitive so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree. Is the game that shows better what being an assassin is all about.
Pity being so repetitive, but if you get completely immersed by the history behind the game, you kinda forget that thing.

LightRey
09-13-2011, 03:17 PM
well I only read a little bit of the first post (sorry about that, I'm sick and tired so forgive me for doing so), but I have a simple basic thing to say.

If nothing is true, then technically one could consider that anything is true (including everything). Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that it would mean that everything is both true and false.

I could go a lot deeper than that, but since I haven't read everything and I'm tired I'm just going to wait till I'm better :P.

dxsxhxcx
09-13-2011, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
If nothing is true, then technically one could consider that anything is true (including everything). Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that it would mean that everything is both true and false. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree in part with this, but I don't think everything IS both true AND false, I belive everything CAN be true OR false/right OR wrong depending of each person's point of view...

OGCFB
09-13-2011, 04:12 PM
To understand you have to see from far away... Forget what you think you know nothing is true, everything is permitted is what it says...

How can you be sure anything is true whats that air exists? No it exists in the books and experiments scientists did meaning it was permitted...

Is anything fact? No one truly knows but there is still books coming out claiming to be non-fiction.

This brings me to the subject of history you know the crusades happened right? Are you sure was you there did you see them with your own eyes no you did not but you know about them people tell you they exist.

So that is why nothing is true, everything is permitted.

NewBlade200
09-13-2011, 04:32 PM
I thought it meant that no religion or belief system that someone could hide behind was true, so the assassin could kill based on whatever the order deemed right or wrong.

Edit: ^That seems pretty good actually.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 04:55 PM
Yeah i think plato has some sort of famous quote about how we cannot truly know anything. certainly in 'The Republic' there is a bit in it about a man born in a cave, strapped in a chair, never seeing anything else but shadows created by waving things in front of a fire accompanied by sounds. The point being that the man in the chair would believe those things to be real whereas in reality they were just images. therefore, we cannot even be certain of what we think of as 'reality'.

djhendrix
09-13-2011, 05:00 PM
maybe a more correct way to put it would be 'nothing we can believe to be true is true, everything is permitted' but that would be slightly less catchy lol

ProdiGurl
09-13-2011, 05:51 PM
Not to be repetitive, but Ezio does give a longer explanation of what the 'nothing is true' refers to specifically.
I'll try to go back to it in my game tomorrow (too tired & busy tonight) and type it out here. I don't think the context of it is actually to say nothing is true - there was a frame of reference that applied to it when he says the long version of the creed in a ceremony.

I think they quoted that in AC2 too.

Oh, and I don't think it can be everything is true and false . . but true or false. One or the other so it doesn't violate the law of non contradiction.

Hope you feel better Light.

OGCFB
09-13-2011, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by djhendrix:
Yeah i think plato has some sort of famous quote about how we cannot truly know anything. certainly in 'The Republic' there is a bit in it about a man born in a cave, strapped in a chair, never seeing anything else but shadows created by waving things in front of a fire accompanied by sounds. The point being that the man in the chair would believe those things to be real whereas in reality they were just images. therefore, we cannot even be certain of what we think of as 'reality'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly what I meant.

LightRey
09-14-2011, 12:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
If nothing is true, then technically one could consider that anything is true (including everything). Basically, what I'm trying to say here is that it would mean that everything is both true and false. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree in part with this, but I don't think everything IS both true AND false, I belive everything CAN be true OR false/right OR wrong depending of each person's point of view... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm actually saying the exact same thing, but what I'm saying is that everything can be true and/or false depending on each point of view.

BK-110
09-14-2011, 01:46 AM
Someone has probably already said this, but I'm too lazy to read every post...

I interpret "nothing is true" as an allusion to skepticism. The Assassins are all about skepticism, even though there's some hypocrisy due to their blind faith in their own master, an irony that Alta´r addresses in the Codex. It is not a literal statement, but the idea that you shouldn't take everything you're told as truth. People lie, governments lie, leaders lie. You have to apply your own reasoning. That is how I understand it, at least.

djhendrix
09-14-2011, 11:51 AM
"I interpret "nothing is true" as an allusion to skepticism.' - Yeah that's the conclusion i've come to but i wish it could be something more interesting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

'If nothing is true, then technically one could consider that anything is true (including everything).' - I don't really understand this. it's the whole 'law of non contradiction' thing prodigurl said about. how can nothing and anything be true at the same time?

ProdiGurl
09-14-2011, 02:54 PM
I posted this in another thread with a similar topic, and I'll post it here since it deals with this topic just for FYI -

&lt;&lt;&lt; Here's the full creed I typed from the "Ascension" memory in Sequence 7 of ACB:

"Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember, Nothing is true,

Where are other men are limited by morality and law, remember, Everything is permitted."
&gt; &gt; &gt;

djhendrix
09-14-2011, 03:06 PM
"Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember, Nothing is true,

Where are other men are limited by morality and law, remember, Everything is permitted." - yeah i have a good rant at that earlier on in this thread. i don't like it one bit!

Jexx21
09-14-2011, 03:16 PM
'The Truth' is meaning what we learn in school, books, and are told to be facts. In that sense, in the game, practically nothing is true there.

And everything you can do to stop the enslavement of people's minds and the Templar's goals is permitted.

BK-110
09-14-2011, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
'The Truth' is meaning what we learn in school, books, and are told to be facts. In that sense, in the game, practically nothing is true there.

And everything you can do to stop the enslavement of people's minds and the Templar's goals is permitted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that what they refer to as not being true is education. Education and reason are what the Assassins want people to embrace. Rather, it refers to what people are told by leaders and authorities. That is what is not true, as their words are clouded in corruption and deception. Books and schools provide the people with information to which they can apply their own reason to inch closer to "truth".

Jexx21
09-14-2011, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BK-110:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
'The Truth' is meaning what we learn in school, books, and are told to be facts. In that sense, in the game, practically nothing is true there.

And everything you can do to stop the enslavement of people's minds and the Templar's goals is permitted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that what they refer to as not being true is education. Education and reason are what the Assassins want people to embrace. Rather, it refers to what people are told by leaders and authorities. That is what is not true, as their words are clouded in corruption and deception. Books and schools prove the people with information to which they can apply their own reason to inch closer to "truth". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it could be both, because what we learn is a lot different from what is true in the AC games. Sure, they want to educate, but they want to educate the truth, not what people think is the truth.

LightRey
09-14-2011, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BK-110:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jexx21:
'The Truth' is meaning what we learn in school, books, and are told to be facts. In that sense, in the game, practically nothing is true there.

And everything you can do to stop the enslavement of people's minds and the Templar's goals is permitted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that what they refer to as not being true is education. Education and reason are what the Assassins want people to embrace. Rather, it refers to what people are told by leaders and authorities. That is what is not true, as their words are clouded in corruption and deception. Books and schools prove the people with information to which they can apply their own reason to inch closer to "truth". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it could be both, because what we learn is a lot different from what is true in the AC games. Sure, they want to educate, but they want to educate the truth, not what people think is the truth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, not so much education itself, but rather the way people are educated (these days). Schools have basically become knowledge factories and if the Templars really do have the kind of control that they seem to have, then they would manipulate that knowledge too (aside from how they already manipulated history).

djhendrix
09-14-2011, 03:55 PM
I think if the people who originated the phrase; 'nothing is true, everything is permitted', were to see what we learn in school today, which is what i think jexx21 is alluding to, they would disagree with some of it and say it is not true. But when it comes to 'inching closer to the truth' though education i think they would promote it.

Jexx21
09-14-2011, 03:59 PM
So yea, I would have to say that I would think that Nothing is True is more correct than Everything is True.

djhendrix
09-14-2011, 04:09 PM
I think it's definitely possible to think of it as 'everything is true'. certainly not in the sense of individuals opinions and ideas but in the sense that everything one experiences is truth. Even if someone tells you a lie, the fact that the moment happened gives it it's own truth, in that it exists.

I don't think 'nothing is true' makes any flawless sense whatever way you look at it. To say that nothing is true implies that everything is false. And even in language that is not totally true. We can express the truth in language if we have the intelligence to see the truth, which we don't, yet.

Jexx21
09-14-2011, 04:12 PM
Let's just chalk it up to opinion then.

P.S. stop ruining my dream D:

djhendrix
09-14-2011, 05:03 PM
yer, i think that's the only conclusion we can come to...

Calvarok
09-14-2011, 07:27 PM
The creed is not meant to be taken so literally. Stop analyzing individual words.

LightRey
09-15-2011, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Calvarok:
The creed is not meant to be taken so literally. Stop analyzing individual words. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, we will analyze individual words as much as we want D:

djhendrix
09-15-2011, 02:41 AM
you have to argue the semantic content of the phrase (like altair and al mualim did) to understand it. if you don't, the phrase means very little...

djhendrix
09-15-2011, 03:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> When you think about it in terms of physical things instead of just language I think it makes more sense. To say that everything is true, to me would mean that everything you experience is truth and therefore nothing is false because it is impossible to experience 'false'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless they're saying that we are incapable of experiencing truth. The world we experience is an illusion created in our minds. when you see a chair you do not truly experience that chair. what you experience is an image created in your head of that chair. The chair could have all sorts of extra stuff to do with it's composition that we have simply no clue about. All we can experience is what we are permitted by natural law to experience and, as of yet, that does not include the naked truth.

All we can do, as someone mentioned before, is inch closer to the truth.

djhendrix
09-15-2011, 08:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6byvnr2wjso

IMO that is by far the best thing in the game to understand the phrase. He says; 'we see the world the way it really is', then describes the world as 'an illusion... which we can transcend', 'Laws (natural laws) arise not from divinity but reason', 'the creed does not command us to be free, it commands us to be wise'

kronos0316
01-13-2012, 03:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_sEyky7NlY
i hope that helps

edzilla_551
01-14-2012, 01:05 AM
ezio auditore- June 24, 1459-1524

mutasa5
01-14-2012, 03:33 PM
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