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View Full Version : Manual targeting! Short story + your preferred method?



W.Irving
12-13-2005, 12:36 PM

NaturalBornGoth
12-13-2005, 01:11 PM
For me it's a mix of manual notepad and manual TDC programming... depending on my needs at a given situation.

I never used the WO to plot a solution ever. And also gut feeling is sometimes at work, when i attack a target in very bad weather with the hydrophone alone. I'm not using the God's Eye View, so my own markings on the map and my ears are everything i've got to establish the target's course and speed in such conditions.

vanjast
12-13-2005, 01:33 PM
I'm on 100% - manual all the way.
Convoy speeds are usually reported so no change there. Otherwise it is :-

a) Count revs of nearest ship.
b) ID the ship.
c) Use ship/revs table to determine speed
d) Enter speed into TDC.
e) Rough seas = use impact, else magnetic (set depth from Ship ID)
f) Peek through scope/Uzo, determine AOB, set TDC.
g) Range -> Ship is big in scope = close, Ship is small in scope = far, set torp speed in TDC.
h) If can, lock scope onto ship.
i) Wait for ship to be AOB = 90-15%, monitor TDC on the way in making adjustments as necessary (ie zig-zaggin, speed changes)
j) Small Merchants/Tankers = 1 torp, Big ships = 2 torps spread (1% < spread angle), Very Big Ships = 3/4 torp spread (1% < spread angle).
k) If attacking a convoy and escorts change speed to fast, hit the seabed. Go into the convoy and exit with escorts behind you. Else you can surface and pelt the remains of the ship with the flak-gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

NEVER report your position/patrol reports/ etc to BDU... This is the 'Silent Service'
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The_Silent_O
12-13-2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by NaturalBornGoth:
For me it's a mix of manual notepad and manual TDC programming... depending on my needs at a given situation.

I never used the WO to plot a solution ever. And also gut feeling is sometimes at work, when i attack a target in very bad weather with the hydrophone alone. I'm not using the God's Eye View, so my own markings on the map and my ears are everything i've got to establish the target's course and speed in such conditions.

I'm just like the NBG here, I'll attempt a notepad solution first...but if that fails due to rough seas or low visability I'll go to manual overide on the TDC. Although I haven't tried "no map updates" setting yet...that's next career...but I may retain external camera.

By the way Van Jast and NBG, great production on the film...the "Lili Marlene" sequence was AWESOME...and NBG has a really good "Bad German Accent" Ready for Hollywood, I tell ya!

WilhelmSchulz.
12-13-2005, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by vanjast:
a) Count revs of nearest ship.
b) ID the ship.
c) Use ship/revs table to determine speed
d) Enter speed into TDC. How the hell do you figure that out???

NEVER report your position/patrol reports/ etc to BDU... This is the 'Silent Service'

Yea espialy late in the war. The Brits start to play D/F games. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

W.Irving
12-13-2005, 04:24 PM
There's an RPM table!? I demand to know where. Don't make me dispatch my boarding party!

HeibgesU999
12-13-2005, 04:44 PM
I play on 150% realism straigh out of the Uboat Commanders Handbook. Rule #1 is don't cheat by using the hydrophones to find targets.

I also use torpedo allocation out of the Uboat Commaders Handbook: 2 Torps Small Merchants, 3 Torps Large Merchants, 3-4 Torps Large Merchants in Rough Weather, and 4 TORPS AT ALL ESCORTS. If you really want to play realistically this is the most important rule to follow. Especially regarding escorts.

Without using these rules even 100% Realism in the Video Game Options, is only about 25% realistic as compared to real uboat operations.

Use the 2 above rules and you will be operating like a real kaleun.

I set up my TDC before I leave port.
I always get on a perpendicular attack course.
I find speed generally using the matching speed indicator.
I find range with the lengthMILS method.

NaturalBornGoth
12-13-2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
By the way Van Jast and NBG, great production on the film...the "Lili Marlene" sequence was AWESOME...and NBG has a really good "Bad German Accent" Ready for Hollywood, I tell ya!

Hehe, thanks. Maybe i should audition for the role of the bad guy if "Indiana Jones 4" is gonna happen. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Teddy Bar
12-13-2005, 06:22 PM
Sadly, The campaign files have all waypoints for a set of ship/s at the one speed. So 90+% it is 7 for merchants, 11 for escorts blah blah...

As the ships are unaffected by the sea state it is truly a no brainer to sink a ship using the manual TDC.

vanjast
12-14-2005, 07:35 AM
Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
Rule #1 is don't cheat by using the hydrophones to find targets.


Somebody can correct me here, but I read somewhere that some Kaleuns did use their hydrophones to find targets. They'd cruise for 8-12 hours under water, waiting for some noise to pop up on the phones. This I think was mainly done at night when visibility was limited http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

A pleasure The_Silent_O. Ja when NBG sent the narratives I freaked... this is so cool. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

@WilhelmSchulz - I'll post that table later tonight in this topic. (It was done by GreyRider and Cpt.Nautilus)

@Teddy Bar - The ships do vary their speed. It's just the convoys that seem to be constant. Well, I find this in RuB1.45, anyway.

The_Silent_O
12-14-2005, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by vanjast:

Somebody can correct me here, but I read somewhere that some Kaleuns did use their hydrophones to find targets. They'd cruise for 8-12 hours under water, waiting for some noise to pop up on the phones. This I think was mainly done at night when visibility was limited .

This is true and the preferred method! Even in clear weather the hydrophone had better detection range than the vision.

To intercept, KL would sail to a point near a convoy and submerge and start doing 90 degree turns until they pin pointed the convoy.

TheRealWulfmann
12-14-2005, 12:30 PM
H-999; 150%???
I appreciate the arrogance but I doubt anyone plays a harder modded version than I do and I still call it 100%

Don't use hydrophones?, please.
Once you turn on your patrol you will do anything to succeed and/or survive.
That is why I play 100% and why every single escort is at least a 3 crew rating (anything less is for "Girly men!, I can be arrogant too!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif )
I make it impossible to have a weak moment as in real life a Kaleun would not say, "Don't do that, it is not fair!")
I might add do not upgrade your engines if you want to be ralistic. The original values were with turbochargers, the upgrades are not real. No TypeVII ever went 20knots!!

In maual targeting remember one thing, when you are looking at the target is it 90% to you?
If it is at 90 and you can aim a little infront of that; fire!
If it is at an angle, do not fire (contact WH)

Wulfmann

HeibgesU999
12-14-2005, 04:56 PM
Nope, the vast majority of uboat contacts were made visually. The Uboat Commanders Handbook clearly states that unless absolutely neccessary, the place of the uboat is on the surface.

Donitz does describe in his memoirs an incident where Werner Henke used his hydrophones to locate and track a convoy off the coast of Africa.

In a video game sense, the hydrophones to make it easy to go to sea for two or three weeks, find a bunch of contacts, sink half a dozen ships and sail home. And this is what the careers and patrols of folks who overuse the hydrophones look like. 3 week patrols and 300k careers time after time.

I would only use the hydrophones in heavy fog regarless of sea state, just before dusk, just before dawn, in heavy sea state weather, and lastly when you should have intercepted a convoy but can't see it.

Use SH3 as a simulation, use the tactical doctrine outlined in the UBoat Commanders Handbook, and pretty soon you will have 10 Patrol careers, where your total tonnage is 80k to 120k on average, you are overjoyed with every ship you find, you spend 6 weeks at sea, and one third of the time you don't see anything.

TheRealWulfmann
12-14-2005, 08:05 PM
Well if simulation is what you seek then consider the highest scoring captain of WWII averaged 16,000 tons per patrol.
Hence I reduced the tonnage on my ships particularly the add on ones by Serg making the cargo 4400 tons and the transport 3800 tons. The T2 is less than half the size of a T3 yet they are almost the same displacement. My T2 is 5400 tons like my C3 and C2 is 4,000 tons.
I agree on sighting and following radio calls for potential intercepts and use my hydrophobes to locate in storms but only as an aid, I still target by sighting although I have taken a few shots when I knew I would have no chance but that is rare.
Wulfmann

Nukem_Hicks
12-14-2005, 08:20 PM
I consider myself a pretty good skipper. I've been playing at 100% since the day the game came out. Despite this, my torps ALWAYS go astern of the target...even when I'm only 300m away! I've used the notepad, I've manually plugged the data into the TDC, with the same result every time. I've done the exact calculations described in the community handbook; no beans. I typically have to aim a ship length ahead to get a hit amidships and any range over 1000m is virtually impossible to hit. I've uninstalled and reinstalled the game multiple times in the hope that it's a bug to to no avail. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm getting tired of eyeballing it every time.

3.JG51_Molders
12-14-2005, 10:40 PM
I recently forced myself into manual targetting at 92% realism (externals off so I can have my screenshots). It is quite rewarding when you see your fish "rip a new one" in a ship. What annoys me is when my torpedos over shoot or undershoot by less than a metre. Poor luck I suppose. I have yet to resume my campaign (previously 77% realism) at the newly found 92% realism, afraid to disappoint the fatherland. I'm currently practicing in the training mission for torpedos and to get the hang out it and so far I can hit them or get extremely close. As for my preferred method, it echos NaturalBornGoth's in the sense of using both the notepad and TDC to adjust depth,speed and salvo shots for tankers. As for the majority of my success it came from reading the Brief that is included for the Torpedo training mission. It sure cleared up Angle on bow and the range finder. Good luck to all those who make this venture, its a long and stressful road, but its quite worth it in the end (I have yet to reach that end lol).

vanjast
12-15-2005, 07:45 AM
@HeibgesU999...
That is just a handbook, and not the rule. It's like the RAF in early WW2 flying in 3 plane Vic tight formations which were totally impractical and many pilots died un-necessarily. All due to a doctrine or handbook.
The rule in war is simple:- "If you are predictable, you die quickly". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HeibgesU999
12-15-2005, 12:25 PM
This has no impact on living or dying, or have any impact on the "predictability" of the tactics used in your attacks.

This has to do with being able to exploit a feature of all subsims going back 25 years, enabling you to go on short patrols and wrack up huge tonnage.

The Uboat Commanders Handbook is based on practical wartime experience, and was updated as far as 1943.

But even in the military today, you would use the basic guidelines in the Ranger Handbook, or the Armor/Infantry/Platoon/Company/Platoon/Task Force/ Handbook, to plan your attack and then adapt your plan based on 1)your Mission, 2)the Enemy you were facing, 3)the Terrain you operate in, 4)the Time you have to accomplish your mission, and 5)the Troops you have available under your command.

But you WOULD NOT for instance say, I want to be "unpredicatble" so I am going to launch this assault on that enemy position without a Support Element.

The_Silent_O
12-16-2005, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
Nope, the vast majority of uboat contacts were made visually. The Uboat Commanders Handbook clearly states that unless absolutely neccessary, the place of the uboat is on the surface.

Donitz does describe in his memoirs an incident where Werner Henke used his hydrophones to locate and track a convoy off the coast of Africa.

In a video game sense, the hydrophones to make it easy to go to sea for two or three weeks, find a bunch of contacts, sink half a dozen ships and sail home. And this is what the careers and patrols of folks who overuse the hydrophones look like. 3 week patrols and 300k careers time after time.

I would only use the hydrophones in heavy fog regarless of sea state, just before dusk, just before dawn, in heavy sea state weather, and lastly when you should have intercepted a convoy but can't see it.

Use SH3 as a simulation, use the tactical doctrine outlined in the UBoat Commanders Handbook, and pretty soon you will have 10 Patrol careers, where your total tonnage is 80k to 120k on average, you are overjoyed with every ship you find, you spend 6 weeks at sea, and one third of the time you don't see anything.

Notice I said preferred method...early in the war I'll give you that most contacts were made visually.

In reading Clay Blair's books...I always seem to read that

"....Schutze gained stong sonar contact of the convoy...etc"

Especially when the war moved in the convoy lanes in the middle atlantic.

Doenitz also gave orders to attack at any cost, in any weather or condition. So more attacks were made in rough weather or certainly nightime the preferred time to attack, where visual contact could be nil.

...got it, METT-T, but the third "T" stands for Terrain AND WEATHER

I believe U-boot captains used whatever means possible to track there targets...and in primarily depended on weather.

vanjast
12-16-2005, 02:57 PM
ZZZzzzzzzzzz .... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maj_Solo
12-16-2005, 03:32 PM
Don't sleep on your post!!!! (hitting you as hard as I can with my fist on your shoulder)
Here is a cup of coffee!

boneyfreak
12-16-2005, 07:08 PM
why would anyone purchase a sim only to play at less than 100% realism..i'm missing something i guess...maybe because i grew up on a ranch hunting pretty much everyday..its the hunt and tough shooting thats most rewarding..haulin the meat back was just "work".

W.Irving
12-17-2005, 03:36 AM
For shooting deer and sinking steamers is no different. It is a well known fact that all great hunters have served onboard submarines - especially my aunt..

Just noticed the dials in the TDC are a bit inaccurate - at least the bearing dial. I assume to be accurate, you have to go on the window at the bottom which tells you the last digit.

vanjast
12-18-2005, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Maj_Solo:
Don't sleep on your post!!!! (hitting you as hard as I can with my fist on your shoulder)
Here is a cup of coffee!

Huh ! what! Dive Dive Dive... Oh it's you.. Cancel Order http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HeibgesU999
12-18-2005, 03:05 PM
Sorry, I meant this only applies to the general searching for targets and patrolling, not trying to lock down the location of a target you are trying to intercept, or have received a contact report on, or other boats are in contact with.

This is what I get from Doenitz's memoirs and the uboat commanders Handbook for example:

Uboat Visual Range=25miles
Uboat Hydrophone Range=50 miles
Uboat Underwater Speed=2kts
Uboat Surface Speed:6kts

For simplicity 1kt =2mph

So in a 12 hour period at submerged uboat listening through phones would cover 98 miles.

And in a 12 hour period a surfaced uboat could cover 169 miles.

This also explains why it was such a disaster for the uboats to be forced below the waves with or without the snorkel. They could then only attack targets that drove right over them. Their speed was so low they could no longer be proactive in their attacks.

The ratio of time on patol:time in transit to patrol area: time in port for refit was very important to Doenitz.

At sea Weather = Terrain.

W.Irving
12-18-2005, 05:19 PM
In metrics:

Uboat visual range - 12 km (if I'm not mistaking)
Hydrophone range - 30 km

1kt = 1.852 km/h

Submerged search coverage - 104 km
Surfaced - 157 km (assuming perfect weather and constant daylight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

So which is better?
Submerged, you are near invisible, but 'deaf' ahead and astern, besides your range is no longer 30 km if you are moving.
On the other hand, you are very exposed and vulnerable when surfaced, and the max range at which my watch crew has ever spotted a ship was 7 km.

Add to that, SHIII does not seem to burn fuel when recharging the batteries, so running submerged on electrics is strangely enough the most efficient way of travelling - when it should be the opposite.

I prefer to search for targets submerged. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Messervy
12-18-2005, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by W.Irving:
There's an RPM table!? I demand to know where. Don't make me dispatch my boarding party!


This might help you:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v675/Messervy/Speedchart.jpg

W.Irving
12-19-2005, 03:54 AM
Thank you Mr Knife!

Messervy
12-19-2005, 06:05 AM
You do know how to use it?

Just in case you don`t here is a transcript from tutorial:

Speed of the target
As soon as possible, decide the probable kind of target. If it is a ship, notice the speed of
the screws (slow, medium, or fast) and the weight of the sound (light or heavy).
Determining the targets speed will help in identification through elimination. See tables.
Train the hydrophone directly on the bearing where the prop beats are loudest.
Notice whether the beats are accented or unaccented. Accented beats go CHUG, chug,
chug (three-bladed propeller)-or CHUG, chug, chug, chug (four-bladed propeller).
Unaccented beats go chug, chug, chug, chug, chug.
Get in rhythm with the beats by pumping your arm up and down like a band conductor. If
there is an accented beat, let your hand come down with every accented CHUG -or if the
beats are all the same, on every chug.
Count the number of times you pump your hand down in 15 seconds.
Multiply this count by 4 to get the number of rpm (revolutions per minute). For example,
if your 15-second count is 12, the rpm will be 48. If the beats are too rapid count for a full
minute for accuracy.
For the merchants, the screws have a cycle of four beats, of which you only count the
first beat, or begining beat. To me the cycle sounds like the beating of the war drums of
the cheyanne, or apache. Another analogy is music in four four time, four quarter notes,
four beats to a measure, 1- 2-3-4 1-2-3-4, count the beats of the 1 only.

Courtesy of greyrider and Cpt.Nautilus

vanjast
12-19-2005, 09:36 AM
If you lot hang on a bit, I'm busy with a comprehensive Rev table for all ships.
It takes about 3 hours per ship so it'll be a while.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Carl_Emmermann
12-19-2005, 10:08 PM
I use IUB 1.02 and 91% realism. I use the external camera for screenies, but not for avoiding escorts or identifying ships.

Manual all the way, mostly with the notepad from UZO or 'scope but sometimes with the TDC. I have yet to even try to shoot from hydrophones only. I use the 'phones to get my initial acquisition, after tracking in from a convoy message. Once I have the bearing, I go back to the surface and run until I spot a ship, then attack.

Ranging with the UZO is a piece of struedel, especially with Herr Laser von Rangefinder at your elbow to backstop you. The attack scope can be a tad more... let's say challenging. Follow the bouncing ship. Daylight submerged attacks in heavy seas will teach you patience, or you will throw your comp out a window. Watching a beautiful 90 degree shot approach while trying to get just ONE decent range can be fun, in a masochistic way.

I keep forgetting to use the protracter, but my AOB observations with the MkI eyeball have been very close so far. I have had no misses in quite a while.

I use 30-60 second checks with the stopwatch to gauge speed.

As far as getting what I know is the right speed on the notepad... I have been known to fudge a little. example: If a target passing in front at close to 90 degrees will only give me a 4 knot speed and I KNOW he is doing 7, I will redo the range to register the target as farther away. This brings the speed up on the next 30 second reading. I then reset the range again.

Once I am happy, I re-check the torp settings and go back to UZO/scope and open the tube. I then re-click on the notepad checkmark to make sure I have updated bearings and .. LOS!

I check the stopwatch, and when the torp is about 15 seconds out from target I go outside and pause. Then it is screenie of death time. I close in and watch then pause when needed for the best shots.

http://webpages.charter.net/bluehair11/c2a.JPG


Rough weather night surface attacks are quickly becoming my favorite. It is insane how close I can get before being detected and all I have to do is submerge and sprint for a few minutes and I can come back up. Keep in mind it is still late 1940 and I have yet to deal with radar.

vanjast
12-19-2005, 10:38 PM
Things are a-changing, my carreer is Jan '42 and radar is starting to pop up in more ships - They find you in the pea-soup. The anti-sub tactics are improving and if 3 or more escorts find you, they sit on you for hours.

Your excitement is only just beginning http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MickeyMouse_
12-19-2005, 11:41 PM
Yeah, the radar is a killer. There can be really heavy fog, then all the sudden this destroyer pops out and says hello. Luckily I now have radar warning though.

W.Irving
12-20-2005, 01:56 AM
How about the doppler effect - is this modelled in SHIII?