PDA

View Full Version : The Energy management



zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 03:14 PM
I have a feeling that when I fly a La, the P39 and the P40 and comes out of a turnfight and starts to climb after a Me or a FW, the german plane seems to loose energy much faster.

Even when I chase a Me that is supposed to climb better, I initially in the climb have more "float" to catch up with it and puts some holes in it.

Its like a metaphore from icehockey, their skates are duller, they skid and loose energy while I cut through the air and perserves it.

The same phenomenon can be used in dogfights. Especially the La is no great turner but if you curve not only in the horizontal plane, it seems that you can maintain speed a little longer.
Is this just a feeling that I have or have anyone an aerdynamical explanation or anything that help me solving this subject.

zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 03:14 PM
I have a feeling that when I fly a La, the P39 and the P40 and comes out of a turnfight and starts to climb after a Me or a FW, the german plane seems to loose energy much faster.

Even when I chase a Me that is supposed to climb better, I initially in the climb have more "float" to catch up with it and puts some holes in it.

Its like a metaphore from icehockey, their skates are duller, they skid and loose energy while I cut through the air and perserves it.

The same phenomenon can be used in dogfights. Especially the La is no great turner but if you curve not only in the horizontal plane, it seems that you can maintain speed a little longer.
Is this just a feeling that I have or have anyone an aerdynamical explanation or anything that help me solving this subject.

VW-IceFire
03-18-2004, 03:25 PM
I chalk it upto wing design where the German planes tend to have thinner wings with more streamlining to achieve better speeds and also to weight. German planes tended to be heavier I believe.

Russian planes emphasized light weight and turn ability so the wings were more for high lift. If you take a La-5FN, for instance, into a high speed dive with a FW190, you may catch him at first (engine to weight ratio) but he'll pull away and you'll start to buffet and not have much control. The FW190 pilot will be more worried about blacking out because he can still manuver than not being able to control the plane.

Energy mangement is a bit different in AEP I feel but ultimately the FW190 in particular holds energy very well provided that you don't turn much.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

crazyivan1970
03-18-2004, 03:49 PM
Zug, with all due respect...
If you have a question to Oleg directly or bringing something to his attention.. i don`t have problem with that at all. But so far you just sharing personal experiances of what you feel and what went down...almost in every post. There is always General Discussion where people exchage their experiances about planes and such... and usually they come to ORR to ask direct questions to developer of this game.

Don`t get me wrong and don`t get offended... but i have to be fair here.

Hope you understand what i am talking about.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Functio
03-18-2004, 03:58 PM
Well, I think zug has a point - after all, some planes in Il-2/FB do tend to show an ability to acclerate well after sustained turns. In general this suggests that perhaps there are some issues with the way energy loss is modelled. Okay, granted, some planes may have good acceleration, but the issue is the basic way energy loss from turns (especially sustained ones) appears to be rather odd. You have to tie it in with other factors too, like airspeed & accleration from one energy state to another. So it does appear that energy fighting (in the truest sense of the term, and not just B&Z) raises issues in FB (and also in IL-2).

Flamin_Squirrel
03-18-2004, 03:58 PM
Well the luftwaffe high power, weight, low drag config for the fw sure isnt modeled. I Struggled to escape from a 1400hp P51B in a 2000hpp FW190 A9. Go figure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

BfHeFwMe
03-18-2004, 04:04 PM
You want to outclimb a cleaner airplane in an Me, you must add bank to the climb to do it. By adding the bank you equalize the drag to a greater degree, from that point on your engine power should give you the edge over nearly every other plane in the game. Fail to add the correct bank and their clean airframe will match or exceed your engine ability to deliver.

There was a reason they used the spiral climb as a standard tactic in 109's. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

crazyivan1970
03-18-2004, 04:10 PM
As i said, form is as a question with explanation of what happened and so on, directly to Oleg. If he wants this answered. Please do not misunderstand what i am trying to say.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Functio
03-18-2004, 04:10 PM
Perhaps so BfHeFwMe - in a real situation. But in FB you often see effective B&Z neutralised by hard turning aircraft that then climb up without any apparent lag between their energy state. That is, you dive on them, watch them go into a hard sustained turn and then continue to come up after you as you climb away. It's almost as if their turn really didn't effect ther energy state. I doubt that even planes with a notoriously good turn time (i.e. the I-153) could do such a move without it effecting their energy state (and thus their airspeed and available energy to go into another manouevre).

zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 04:45 PM
First I want to say that Im greatful that you dont just erase many subjects.

Yes Ivan I agree with you about personal experiences and about feelings of something, but this is a sort of "Indirect approach" to an issue that can be explained by a person who has got deep knowledge about aerodynamics.

So I found no other way to bring this issue to the forum where I could get a "scientific" answer.

And I know that all questions are repeated but its like shooting claypidgeons, not every ball is supposed to but if only one does, it counts.

My intentions are to evaluate what I bring up here by series of tests but there where to much that could be explained by jerking with the joystick etc etc.

The question about the sight in the FW that fell of frequently was a way to bring up an issue that was based on feelings.


The spiral climb-manouvre was tested but it made no difference.
The Me/FW shall be away for > 350-400m to be safe.
By the way the La is 500 kg hevyier than the Me.

[This message was edited by zugfuhrer on Thu March 18 2004 at 04:01 PM.]

p1ngu666
03-18-2004, 05:20 PM
dont fw/me need high speed for climb rate
too slow and high wingloading and your :\

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

WWMaxGunz
03-18-2004, 05:43 PM
Maybe look at IL2Compare and check some things?

You target. What is the sustained turn speed and how close is that to sustained climb? If they are close then he will be able to go from best turn right into best climb. BnZ on that plane, you want to hit by crossing his path by a good angle to at least force him to turn extra to come around onto you. But making such a hit is very hard when you have not got much field of view! Still it can be done and I have found that hits from the side work best. Hits from the top? If you can deflection shoot from 400-500m and hit they are as good as from half as far from the six, only you get less time to waste ammo. This is what I mainly practice at, offside deflection and getting the feel of where the shells go.

BnZ... shoot from farther away and pull up above the target. If he can still come around and catch you in a plane not highly superior to yours then review your actions, strategy, and ability to judge the energy state of the other. Also make a track, be sure!


Neal

Hristo_
03-18-2004, 06:07 PM
Spiral climb in 109K works against absolutely any plane in the game if done properly. Not surpriseing against early war, of course, but also works vs La-7, Yak3 or P63.

One has to be very careful about relative energy states before initiating it. It slows you down and make you vulnerable to intruders - keep SA up all te time. If someone with enough E shows up, run.

P38s are dangerous opponents since they can hang on their props quite long. Still, after they drop their nose - strike. They are big targets and easy to hit from above.

Spiral climb starts with enemy on your 6, just outside firing range and without closure. Start a gentle climbing turn, watch the slip indicator. This takes some time. Mosty online players fall for spiral climb - they can't resist the tempation of their target so close to their reach. Continue your climb until your wingtip points to the enemy, who is lower. If you continue longer, he will most likely recognize your advantage in position and dive away. Instead, lift the nose as high as it goes, then wingover after him.

Another useful tactic is going below the enemy after the merge. Surprisingly, wa too many do a Split S trying to lead turn you. While they waste their E trying to lead turn you, you slowly pull into a zoom. Relative E states are very important here. If you misjudged it, you're a sgood as dead. Zoom until your speed is 100kph or so, then hammerhead down. Ideally, you will now be diving at a wallowing pursuer, flying at almost 0 airspeed. 30mm is great for this situation.

Climbing tactics are great for duels, but in a crowded arena are pretty risky, as they leave you vulnerable to intruders. Still, the higher you go the safer you are.

La-7 is by far the most dangerous "thing" to attack. When in Fw 190, I usually make 2-3 passes until he equalizes E states. Even beginners are doing it frequently. And I am very careful about my E. When in 109, I can hold my own against a La-7 by BnZing it indefinitely, but it still isn't a good feeling. One mistake and he is all over you. He, on the other hand, enjoys the benefit of delta wood http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

zugfuhrer
03-19-2004, 02:17 AM
Hristo I want to fly as your wingman and see you do this. I have a lot to learn. I am eager to watch how you manage to get the your wingtip to point to the enemy.

The climbadvantage in a "K" is 5 to 6 m/s agaist a Yak3, La-7 both on emergency power up to 4000m, this gives you 100m in 20seconds.

I have found out that the La-7 with fat mixture climbs better than the IL2 compare figures, perhaps it dont overheat so easy.

I think that climbrateadvantage is not worth much in "furball fighting". If someone who is not lower than you are, discovers you, you are dead, slowly curving.
I think that the high speed is more useful to survive.
Sorry Ivan Im getting to personal again :-)

jurinko
03-19-2004, 04:46 AM
Pilot in German plane: carefully selects the fuel load, deeply considers the advantages and disadvantages of taking additional gunpods, then climbs carefully with fully open radiator.
When he is sure he has at least 3km advantage over the highest flying enemy, he aims to the combat area. Selects the unaware enemy, dives on him, while manipulating violently with controls like propeller pitch and radiator cowl. At the last moment, when his plane is uncontrollable from the high speed he finds out the enemy is blocked by some kind of cockpit strut or by the gunsight metallic part. He fires desperate burst, which just alerts the bogey flying level 300kph TAS...

Pilot in Russian plane: ...he easily avoids the attack, make two 360? turns and enter the steep climbing turn, catching the stalling German plane burdened with gunpods and 25% excess of fuel in the top of his zoomclimb. Short burst from all two guns finishes him off, killing the pilot, cutting the controls and setting the engine and fuel tank to fire.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But seriously: Fighting teh Russian birds, you have to start with advantage, to attack only the unaware enemy, in the merge to have >200kph speed advantage, to hit him repeatedly into the right spot from less than 100m distance and then run away.. if any of these conditions is not fufilled, you are dead http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ps. oh, sometimes you can outfly them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but only above 7000m http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

Edit: there is a German plane - Bf 109 G-2 - in which you can fight on equal base with 1941-42 Russian planes. This particlular plane is however considered to be seriously overmodelled by all Allied pilots.

Functio
03-19-2004, 05:14 AM
Ah yes, but this is just discussing tactics http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The issue here is (as far as I can tell) the way energy loss/gain is modelled, especially after manouevers like tight turns. I'm sure I'm not the only seeing human-controlled I-153s and other planes apparently not being susceptible to energy loss after performing tight turns. Knowing that it could turn very quickly doesn't tell us much about what it's energy state is like after a turn. That's the important point. At the moment, some planes can do various hard manouvers and not seem to bleed energy very much at all.

jurinko
03-19-2004, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Functio:
Ah yes, but this is just discussing tactics http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The issue here is (as far as I can tell) the way energy loss/gain is modelled, especially after manouevers like tight turns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


yep, that´s it:

"..he easily avoids the attack, make two 360? turns and enter the steep climbing turn, catching the stalling German plane.. "

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

BBB_Hyperion
03-19-2004, 08:54 AM
Where is the challenge when you dont fight at disadvantage ?

Btw the La7 ingame has 2 versions we find only 1 Version in Il2compare missed out or does this mean La7 and La7 3xB20 have same turntime ?

The Turntime is about 18 s at 1000 m in Il2compare thats for sustained level turn for the Standard La7 that we can find in the documentation too.

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html

If this Data is correct there is at least a difference between La7 and La7 3xB20.)

Special look at Bankangle (Optimum "extreme" sustained turn) and corresponding Speed.

At least we can find that when il2compare is correct and this Data Source that the modeling of turntimes if very well done in FB.

For the Energy Management we need more Data from IL2FB to get usefull conclusions. Maybe something for the Next Version of Il2Compare.

Regards,
Hyperion

jurinko
03-19-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Where is the challenge when you dont fight at disadvantage ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, US pilots told "if you meet zero in a F4F Wildcat, run away as mad - you are outnumbered!"

At disadvantage you can start fight in some types of planes and eventually win. There are other planes, which are half dead even they are in advantage...

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

WWMaxGunz
03-19-2004, 01:37 PM
You try and turn any plane too tight and get a load of bleed. The less well turning the plane, the worse the bleed. If you are turning and notice a big speed drop and you are not climbing then let off the stick a bit or just stall there and be a nice easy target. Your choice.

Knowing how you can turn with speed and alt has to be part of your strategy. Strategy is thinking more than one move ahead and knowing beforehand when you will exit. This is more needed when flying 190's of P-47's than any other fighters I know in the sim.

There is no plane or answer for every situation you can get yourself into, even the not immediate death ones. Don't expect to always have a way out from bad circumstances. It is not the fault of the plane or the sim.


Neal

ucanfly
03-19-2004, 01:39 PM
I don' t have the latest IL2 compare, but it was mentioned in another thread that the FW actually has a lower turn rate then some medium bombers at medium speeds. I know the AI cheats but there seems to be a BIG disconnect between pilot accounts (both Allied and Axis) and the game performance for the 190s.

I have a question - which fighters or medium bombers actually have a lower sustained turn rate than the 190A4 in the game at 350-400kph? That may be a short list.

Hristo_
03-19-2004, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zugfuhrer:
Hristo I want to fly as your wingman and see you do this. I have a lot to learn. I am eager to watch how you manage to get the your wingtip to point to the enemy.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll post some tracks this weekend, might be even better idea.

Many people do not understand the E concept at all, especially somewhat esoteric stuff like spiral climbs, rope-a-dope and such. And it is a tough thing to do, you show them your 6 to fire at while you work for your advantage. You're not allowed mistakes, while all they do is simply spray. Be prepared to be called a runner, coward, exploiter or whatever else by the stickpullers though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

jurinko
03-20-2004, 01:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ucanfly:
I don' t have the latest IL2 compare, but it was mentioned in another thread that the FW actually has a lower turn rate then some medium bombers at medium speeds. I know the AI cheats but there seems to be a BIG disconnect between pilot accounts (both Allied and Axis) and the game performance for the 190s.

I have a question - which fighters or medium bombers actually have a lower sustained turn rate than the 190A4 in the game at 350-400kph? That may be a short list.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it is a flaw of il2compare program - turn radius for bombers are unrealistically low and cant be taken seriusly. fighter data are quite precise though.

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

zugfuhrer
03-20-2004, 02:24 AM
Thank you very much Hristo_ how can I find the trackfile?

It would be great if you posted some description of how you understood the situation, how your tactical thought where,
like; at 30sec I saw the .... and my plan was..... because ....
Those judgements of the situation is the difference between a veteran and a newbie.

I am serious not sarcastic when I write that it would be great to fly as your wingman, to watch to learn.

Hristo_
03-20-2004, 06:50 AM
tracks (http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/records.zip)

track one
------------

At the merge, I always go under the opponent. AI is no different than 90% of online players. They try to lead turn you nose down or even with Split S, being already very fast. This is very energy ineffective. I time to make my zoom with least possible separation to bleed their E even more. Anything less than a zoom or Immelmann on their side will translate into my immediate energy advantage.

After that it is only BnZ. Now, timing is important. If you dive too soon, enemy will still be pointing his guns at you. Risky stuff. Then again, if you wait too long, he will already end his zoom and dive away. You have quite small window for error here.

There are also cunning players online, although still of certain kamikaze mentality http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. They keep some of their E hidden and watch until you dive on them. Only then they pull into a vertical head on. Avoid this. Head ons from advantage are a bad choice, and most likely both of you will get killed, with enemy feeling that he defeated your cowardly tactic.

Don't go for tracking shots unless you are sure there are no enemies around and/or your target is crippled and you'll finish it in short order. Better go for snapshots and extend. Look to extend away and below enemy's flightpath, so you don't get hit in the back in those crucial seconds.

Spiral climb - at first you have to be sure enemy has no closure. He will inevitably gain some ground on you in the first phase, simply by cutting corner. But your AOT (angle of tail) should constantly be increasing. Slowly climb to one side, having the slip indicatror centered. Speed should have long gone dropped to sustained climb speeds, never zoom speeds ! Work so that after enough time enemy is below you at your wingtip points at him. Drop flaps and strike. If you miss, you will most likely overshoot. Chose flightpath away from the enemy, so he doesn't shoot you in the back.

track two
--------------
Same thing, but against two enemies. I stopped my zoom earlier because there was already too much separation. If I zoomed as high as I coulkd, I'd be probably diving at already diving Yaks, or worse - the ones starting another zoom and going to head on me.

Spiral climb - same thing.

Online players tend to spray froma lot longer distances when they climb after you. Don't panic, they won't hit (although a lucky shot may get nasty, I admit). .50 cal armed plane are notorious for this. Usually the moment they start firing is the signal that they are close to stalling out. It is their way of saying "...this is my last resort, as I'm about to stall out and I have no more closure on that pesky 109...". When you see them firing, it is a good time to start your reversal. Ideally, you will hit their wallowing plane from above.

Climb tactics are very dangerous because you are left very vulnerable to intruders. Often you will get bounced by an unseen enemy, so don't say I didn't warn you.

Another danger is enemies splitting up. Usually this doesn't happen becuse of their good teamwork, but by pure accident. One stalls sooner, one does a Split S while another does a flat turn etc. It is my impression that many plaery are unfamiliar with climb tactics - if they weren't, a lot of this wouldn't be possible.

Enemies who split up complicate your situtation. It is not nice to pull all this stuff on one enemy while another nails you on top of your zoom just because he arrived later, with more E. These are times to decide - to stay or bug out.

Split S into pursuers. this is a deception move. You have to have separation for this, so when you exit your Split S you should be crossing paths with your enemy by 180 degrees. Anything less is bad. They will be more than happy to match your Split S with theirs. But your Split S isn't an energy wasting move. You keep as much E as possible. So, you better start it by first lifting your nose up, then doing the menauver. It simply boild down to another merge where you both have enough speed, but enemy does a Split S while you zoom.

Bugging out is simple really. If you see things are going bad and you are still not being fired upon, continue your climb away from them. Beware though, some nutcases get very annoyed by climbing tactics in general and will follow you home into your bathroom just to tag you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Drag them to friendlies, base ack or some lone quite place to finish them.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"