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View Full Version : How to get rid of Beery's fatigue changes?



SleazeyWombat
05-03-2005, 12:35 AM
I like the rest of the mod, but I want to go back to the original SHIII fatigue behavior.

What .cfg files do I need to edit, and what are the edits to be made?

Thanks!

SleazeyWombat
05-03-2005, 12:35 AM
I like the rest of the mod, but I want to go back to the original SHIII fatigue behavior.

What .cfg files do I need to edit, and what are the edits to be made?

Thanks!

russian_crazy
05-03-2005, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ******yWombat:
I like the rest of the mod, but I want to go back to the original SHIII fatigue behavior.

What .cfg files do I need to edit, and what are the edits to be made?

Thanks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it will be much easier if you just backed up your old file http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I hope for you that someone will send you a original one. I'm not at home now, but if I will, I could send you. But someone will be before me I think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-03-2005, 01:50 AM
Indeed - there should be an option to be able to choose to install it or not. I like the rest of the mod very much, but the new fatigue-system is a bit odd. The way it is, fatigue equals morale, more or less.

Kpt_Zig
05-03-2005, 03:45 AM
It doesn't equal morale guys, it equates to long-term fatigue/stress.

If you TC all the way to action your crew suffers little fatigue. Then you go to real time when you find action and the fatigue starts to work. Action stops, more TC, followed by more RT action...more fatigue. At this point the sub is like a sewer, everything is wet/damp and none of the crew are getting proper deep sleep. Eventually the entire crew is ratty, shagged, stressed...orange exclamation mark. They can still function however, but at less efficiency. That's when you'll find the presence of an officer can make the difference (finally, a real use for those officers).

Beery's fatigue mod is absolutely spot on in my opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HKLE
05-03-2005, 04:37 AM
Well. I basically agree - but: I got a message, that not enough manpower is in the diesel engine room to run the diesels.

This with a room full of fatiqued guys. (no more space for extra people) !

As i am just 3-5 days in the Atlantic, I wonder, what it will be after 15 days ? With the fatique staying as is, may I move the boat at all if everybody is deadly exhausted ??

Or is it a bug ?

fizilbert
05-03-2005, 05:43 AM
The problem with that, Kpt_Zig, is that it REQUIRES time compression. If you try to play the game without TC above 64, you basically get the shaft.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-03-2005, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The problem with that, Kpt_Zig, is that it REQUIRES time compression. If you try to play the game without TC above 64, you basically get the shaft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, fizilbert!

The equation I used with morale is the simple fact that you can't do much about it, while at sea.

If you'd travell to your patrol area with anything less than 64x time compression, you'll reach it with a crew asleep and you can't do anything about it. That can't be right.

Of course I don't usually cruise with 32x, but I recently had to pursue a convoy and due to weather and zig-zag I had to keep on it with 8x time compression, to overtake it and get into position. It took me so long to get there, that with that fatigue system I could only run my engines with an additional officer assigned and my reload-times were 15min / torpedo. Not funny in a Typ IID... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Kpt_Zig
05-03-2005, 07:00 AM
I've run two patrols with Beery's mod and I've had the "not enough crew", but it's always been fixable by putting an officer in. So you might have to juggle the officers, but with five I can't see that ever becoming a problem.

So the worst that can happen is you get a significant reduction in compartment efficiency, which is real imo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-03-2005, 07:25 AM
Yeah, but the problem is not of a kind that you can put another officer in, as they fatigue, too, which additionally deminishes the compartments efficiency. Anything longer than a week at sea is no fun with this mod - especially with many ship encounters.

HKLE
05-03-2005, 07:59 AM
Has anyone already come to the dead end so far ? I mean, that you are not able to run your boat on diesels, because everybody is so exhausted - and no recovery on sea ?

Or is it enough to put an officer there - no matter how gravely the officer is exhausted ???

Capt.LoneRanger
05-03-2005, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Has anyone already come to the dead end so far ? I mean, that you are not able to run your boat on diesels, because everybody is so exhausted - and no recovery on sea ?

Or is it enough to put an officer there - no matter how gravely the officer is exhausted ??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Tried to get as far as I could in my Typ IID and had a lot of trouble with ships and fighters, being locked to 8x or 32x most of the time. I was stranded south of ireland, as my crew fell asleep.

TheRealWulfmann
05-03-2005, 10:01 AM
I rotate my crew members while in route. I keep the torpedo crew , fore and aft, in crew quarters and rotate them with engine personal.
My last patrol went great with no trouble having fresh guys on their post and that means faster reload times. It was kind of fun but is also what a commander is expected to do allocating resources just like you wouldn't run at full power the whole time and wonder why you can't get home with no fuel.
The long trip out at 1024 TC can be broken up by switching the boys to rotate and rest.
Wulfmann

Kpt_Zig
05-03-2005, 11:33 AM
My last patrol was over two months long and I was able to keep the sub working until I got home. As far as I could make out every crew member was at maximum exhaustion (the bar stopped going down), and compartments required officers in them (with maxed crew) to keep working. Lowest efficiency, but they still worked.

I don't see how it can be more real than that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HKLE:
As i am just 3-5 days in the Atlantic, I wonder, what it will be after 15 days ? With the fatique staying as is, may I move the boat at all if everybody is deadly exhausted ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can still run the engines even if the entire crew is exhausted.

SleazeyWombat
05-03-2005, 11:41 AM
I do have backups. I just don't know which files to restore.... How about a slight tap with the clue stick please?

I don't care for the "fatigue equals morale" system, because it forces you to use the time compression too much.

Kpt_Zig
05-03-2005, 11:50 AM
If you have unrealistic expectations you shouldn't install realism mods. Expecting to be able to keep the crew in tip-top shape by offering them hammocks in a U-Boot is anything but realistic.

Green-bar addiction is for arcade players. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fizilbert:
The problem with that, Kpt_Zig, is that it REQUIRES time compression. If you try to play the game without TC above 64, you basically get the shaft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. The no-recovery system is specifically built so that the boat will always operate with a fully fatigued crew. But the problem is, in the first couple of patrols you can't be lazy - you have to put the best guys where they're needed. I think most players who are complaining about the fatigue system haven't used it for more than one patrol, and/or they get unduly frightened every time an exclamation mark pops up.

Those who like my system have used it for more than a couple of patrols, and they know that their crew won't let them down even if they're tired, and these players know that the more specialists they train, the less they'll have to worry about the crew. These players know that after a few patrols you don't even need to move crewmen - they look after themselves.

Basically, if you don't give the mod a fair chance, you won't like it. If you give it a fair go, you'll love it. It's up to you. I won't remove this part of the Real U-boat mod because the problem isn't with the no-recovery fatigue system. The problem is that people don't understand it (because they assume that the first patrol is going to show you how the mod works on the 11th patrol, but this simply isn't the case) and they fear it. There is no need to fear it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Yeah, but the problem is not of a kind that you can put another officer in, as they fatigue, too, which additionally deminishes the compartments efficiency. Anything longer than a week at sea is no fun with this mod - especially with many ship encounters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you've tried using this mod for more than two patrols and you're still having problems, you're doing something wrong. There is no way that you can use this fatigue system for more than two patrols and have the problems you're having. If you are, then you're not getting your crew trained properly. This is where you're expected to do some work. You can't just juggle the crew you have and hope for the best with this system. It's not a question of simply tucking the men into bed like the standard game's fatigue system. This mod demands that you train the crew, just like a real commander would have to. It turns the commander from a night nurse into a real commander. But you have to be willing to understand that, and you have no chance of understanding it if you don't commit to using this system for more than a patrol or two.

I think that the vast majority of people who are against this mod uninstalled it after the first patrol. You simply can't get a good impression of the system if that's as far as you're willing to go with it.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HKLE:
Has anyone already come to the dead end so far ? I mean, that you are not able to run your boat on diesels, because everybody is so exhausted - and no recovery on sea ?

Or is it enough to put an officer there - no matter how gravely the officer is exhausted ??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The system requires you to put officers and NCOs in compartments where green crewmen have become exhausted. Your officers and NCOs are well-enough trained that they can get compartments working even if they are completely stressed. Think of them like the LI in Das Boot - he could work efficiently for hours after the other men had give in to exhaustion.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Tried to get as far as I could in my Typ IID and had a lot of trouble with ships and fighters, being locked to 8x or 32x most of the time. I was stranded south of ireland, as my crew fell asleep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you're describing simply CANNOT happen. You must not have put the best crewmen into the compartment. What, do you think I didn't test this? Even Type IIs can run engines wth a fully fatigued crew. They can. If they didn't, the fault is not with the crew -it's with the commander.

Type IIs are much harder to run than any other type of U-boat, but they will run, even with the stock crew - even if you don't buy men to fill up your boat before your first mission, and even if everyone is exhausted. But you have to be willing to manage your crew in the way that a real commander would, and you have to be willing to train them as a real commander would. If you don't work to build the best crew, if you don't train them, and if you won't figure out who is needed for what job, you will fail, but the failure is all yours. The crew CAN and WILL do the job, but they need you to do your part too.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
I don't see how it can be more real than that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your support, Kpt_Zig. Good to have someone here when I can't get to the forums as often as I'd like.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 01:04 PM
Here's proof that Type II U-boats can move with an engine crew who are fully fatigued.

First a Type IIA, running happily at 5kts (and you'll notice by comparing the clock and the time I gave the order that it has been chugging along for 41 minutes) with only fully fatigued men in the engine room. Please note that this is the first patrol of this boat and I have not adjusted the crew in any way - this is the standard Type IIA crew - undermanned, just as you get it in the campaign:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Beery/1.jpg

Next, a Type IID, again running happily at 5kts (and this one has been moving for the last 14 minutes) with only fully fatigued men in the engine room. Again, note that this is the first patrol of this boat and I have not adjusted the crew in any way - this is the standard Type IID crew - again not fully manned, just as you get it in the campaign:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Beery/2.jpg

So the real question is, why would anyone want to go back to a system where they constantly have to micromanage the crew when my system makes crew management more interesting and (after a couple of patrols) less work, and after a few more patrols no work at all? If someone here likes 'busy work' - work for its own sake with no reward, by all means use the standard system, or one of the other fatigue mods that force you to constantly rest your crew over and over again. If you want a method of crew management that actually makes you manage the crew like a real commander did, my mod is the only one that achieves that.

Kpt_Zig
05-03-2005, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
I don't see how it can be more real than that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your support, Kpt_Zig. Good to have someone here when I can't get to the forums as often as I'd like. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're welcome mate. I speak as I find, and you've been improving my games since RB2-3D. The work you and your team have done thus far with SH3 is more of the same, so thanks to you and them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

xscreamist1
05-03-2005, 06:10 PM
What really needs to happen is an auto rotation. You should be able to set watchs...say 12 hours on 12 hours off pick crew members for each space and have them auto rotate at the set time period. That is the proper way to manage crew. Fatigue was not the submariners enemy...there was little to do but sit and do your job...the enemy was moral. I served onboard an aircraft carrier, our spaces were all of 3 by 10 feet with no windows, my division didn't even have a t.v.. My shipmates and I were always well rested with 12 hours on 12 hours off (the 12 hours off spent sleeping most of the time) it was the moral that was hard to keep up. I think the first bar to drop should be moral and lowered moral would lead to poor performance, I swear the way my guys in the sim tire out they were paddling the boat by hand back in the engine room. Heck its not like the engines are coal driven and the guys in the engine compartment are shoveling coal into the engine.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xscreamist1:
Fatigue was not the submariners enemy.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My fatigue system doesn't model day-tp-day fatigue. It models battle stress over the course of a patrol. Daily fatigue is discarded because as you say, daily watches took care of that.

xscreamist1
05-03-2005, 07:11 PM
I'm using your system and im out on my first patrol in my type IIA...we have yet to engage a single enemy yet all my guys are well below 25% fatigue rating...I hate to see when we actually see some action if what you say is true. Why is there any fatigue at all if i'm just heading out to our patrol sector? You need to realize I run the simulator at real time (i'm very patient and I know what it is like to spends hours travelling to the action), and fatigue is low before I even get out of the harbor most of the time. I tried one patrol using time compression and I did notice that the guys didn't get tired while the compression was on, which is good. But the original version is better for us 1X er's because we can keep the crew fresh by resting the ones not on watch.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-03-2005, 07:38 PM
1xers can use the mod, but your first patrols will be frustrating unless you buy good crewmen before the first patrol. As long as you buy essential crewmen first, the crew will run the boat okay during the first two patrols while they're fully fatigued, but they won't become really useful until your third patrol.

In my fatigue mod a green crew isn't very good at running a sub at first. You just have to accept that a green crew will be fairly useless on the first patrol. However, you should be able to get to the patrol area and back and at least launch the torpedoes that are in the tubes. It doesn't matter how stressed/fatigued they are, they'll still be able to do this with no problems.

If you think that a fully fatigued crew can't run a boat, you're mistaken. The only issue with the Type II is that reloading might be beyond their capabilities at first, so grabbing a torpedo specialist is job #1. Since there's usually one available at the start of a career, he's the guy you need to grab before the first patrol.

The Real U-boat fatigue system isn't really built for 1x play however. You really need to add a zero in front of all the [FATIGUE_COEF] factors in order for the mod to be fully suited to 1x play. Maybe I'll add an alternate 1x basic.cfg file in for the next version.

HKLE
05-04-2005, 01:34 AM
Hi guys

Thank you for the infos given. My concern was, that I'll end up somewhere out there - really exhausted - with no way to come home.

Your guesses were right. My comments were made druing my first patrol in my first career. With my limited playing time, I guess, I shall be on my second trip sometimes next month - maybe. Therefore, I consider my playing time very precious and I do not want to waste it.

I used to play Pacific fighters a lot - but since SH3 came out, no way ...

The crew management sounds good - but how do I get out of "micromanagement". I mean - you're talking about specialists to be trained. At the first patrol everybody of the enlisted men is equal - and names do not mean to much at this stage. So I end up shuffling the crew around every once and then - like pressing "standard drive conditions" every 4-6 hours (i.e. break time compression at this time) and exchange crews from active duty to rest - this of course if nothing exceptional happens.

How do I recognize whom to promote after the first trip. (Or should I stay with the officers ?)

Thanks again for your dedication - especially Beeryus and Kapt_Zig

Pr0metheus 1962
05-04-2005, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HKLE:
Hi guys

Thank you for the infos given. My concern was, that I'll end up somewhere out there - really exhausted - with no way to come home. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should never be possible that this will happen. A lot of testing has been done to ensure that this never happens. You may have to do some serious crew-juggling to get it to work, but it should work if you get the best guys for the job in there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The crew management sounds good - but how do I get out of "micromanagement". I mean - you're talking about specialists to be trained. At the first patrol everybody of the enlisted men is equal - and names do not mean to much at this stage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After you finish your first patrol you'll get the chance to give out a specialization badge to an NCO or officer (I'm not sure what the English word is that the game uses - in German they're called 'Qualificationen'). These will improve the efficiency of the compartment that they relate to. Just make a note of which compartments are having trouble (usually the first patrol has issues with engines or torpedo loading) and give that specialization badge to either an officer or NCO so that next patrol will be easier. It doesn't really matter who you give the specialization to - officers or NCOs - the important thing is to get people trained as fast as possible, so give out a specialization after every patrol. Officers are more flexible, so getting the officers a good mix of badges is good, but there are only a few of the officers to go around, so you also need NCO specialists for when all the officers are busy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">How do I recognize whom to promote after the first trip. (Or should I stay with the officers ?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Promotions aren't as important as specializations. I just promote the guys who I called upon a lot.

The idea behind the RealUboat's fatigue model is that as your career progresses, you award specializations to your crew and they start out as a very green crew who (when fully exhausted) have the attitude "Oh I'm so tired that I can only just work my crew station". After a few patrols they'll be seasoned veterans who take combat fatigue in their stride and say things like "Sure I'm exhausted captain, but I can sure as heck still run my station at full efficiency".

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 09:16 AM
Let me just open by saying that Beery is obviously one badass modder, as I have been pretty much impressed with all of them so far. In fact I will be trying out Real U-boat 1.22 in a few hours when I get home.

However, something has always bothered me about Beery's Fatigue mod. There was something about it that was down right unrealistic, and I have finally figured out exactly what it is.

I will try and make the situation as absolutely clear as possible as I am not on my home computer, and I can't post any screenshots. I will use a type VIIB for example. Assuming that I am on patrol with a full crew, I have everyone in a compartment except for the repair and the torpedo rooms (and deck/flack gun obviously). With a full staff on the Bridge, this means there are three open slots in my electric engine room. Now I spot a convoy and submerge. All submerged compartments except for my torpedo rooms are completely filled. I have one extra sailor floating around in the bow torpedo room with nothing else to do. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

This is where the problem sets in. Assume now that I have been experiencing fatigue/stress such that one or more sailors are now completely exhausted, such that no matter where I put him, his endurance can no longer decrease. At this point I am doing nothing other than lining up my attack, and essentially cruising underwater at x32 TC or less. The problem is it would make more sense to put these exhausted sailors in the torpedo or engine rooms, then it would to put this soldier in quarters. The reasoning is that a fatigued sailor can experience no more fatigue, but an unfatigued one can. So in order to keep my sailors' endurance from degrading any further, it is best to keep those with endurance in quarters and those without endurance in one of the working areas of the boat. That way, the sailors with no endurance would lose none regardless, and the ones that have high endurance would lose none since they are in quarters. In my opinion, this is unrealistic. I don't see why you would want to make your most fatigued sailors sit around in the diesel engine room while you are submerged, while your least fatigued sailors are chillin' in quarters. Another way to put it that might be easier to see is that with this mod, the engine room becomes the exact same thing as quarters as soon as you have enough fatigued men to fill it, except that you can't recover from wounds there.

I have used this mod for several patrols, and I have only once returned with the entire crew having exclamation points next to them. This was mainly because I kept getting detected when sighting convoys, and thus had a lot of &lt; x64 TC, but usually only about 1/3 to 1/2 wind up with exclamation points. Strangely enough, when I was using the original model, it was about the same.

I think that my entire point is that I get frustrated with some people who go to bat for this mod saying that it is "realistic" compared to the standard fatigue model. I don't find it any more or less "realistic" then the original model, so I can completely understand why this shouldn't be considered the "be all end all" fix to the problem. I just don't understand why others can't as well. It is important to understand that the system is already flawed since endurance is measured by a bar, and sailors can never be fatigued to the point that they collpse or are completely useless.

Anyway after writing this long post I am experiencing stress/fatigue myself. Maybe I can express this in an emoticon/graemlin. (Insert emoticon with an orange exclamation point next to it)

Maybe something like this:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif<span class="ev_code_RED">!</span>

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Let me just open by saying that Beery is obviously one badass modder, as I have been pretty much impressed with all of them so far. In fact I will be trying out Real U-boat 1.22 in a few hours when I get home.

However, something has always bothered me about Beery's Fatigue mod. There was something about it that was down right unrealistic, and I have finally figured out exactly what it is.

I will try and make the situation as absolutely clear as possible as I am not on my home computer, and I can't post any screenshots. I will use a type VIIB for example. Assuming that I am on patrol with a full crew, I have everyone in a compartment except for the repair and the torpedo rooms (and deck/flack gun obviously). With a full staff on the Bridge, this means there are three open slots in my electric engine room. Now I spot a convoy and submerge. All submerged compartments except for my torpedo rooms are completely filled. I have one extra sailor floating around in the bow torpedo room with nothing else to do. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

This is where the problem sets in. Assume now that I have been experiencing fatigue/stress such that one or more sailors are now completely exhausted, such that no matter where I put him, his endurance can no longer decrease. At this point I am doing nothing other than lining up my attack, and essentially cruising underwater at x32 TC or less. The problem is it would make more sense to put these exhausted sailors in the torpedo or engine rooms, then it would to put this soldier in quarters. The reasoning is that a fatigued sailor can experience no more fatigue, but an unfatigued one can. So in order to keep my sailors' endurance from degrading any further, it is best to keep those with endurance in quarters and those without endurance in one of the working areas of the boat. That way, the sailors with no endurance would lose none regardless, and the ones that have high endurance would lose none since they are in quarters. In my opinion, this is unrealistic. I don't see why you would want to make your most fatigued sailors sit around in the diesel engine room while you are submerged, while your least fatigued sailors are chillin' in quarters. Another way to put it that might be easier to see is that with this mod, the engine room becomes the exact same thing as quarters as soon as you have enough fatigued men to fill it, except that you can't recover from wounds there.

I have used this mod for several patrols, and I have only once returned with the entire crew having exclamation points next to them. This was mainly because I kept getting detected when sighting convoys, and thus had a lot of &lt; x64 TC, but usually only about 1/3 to 1/2 wind up with exclamation points. Strangely enough, when I was using the original model, it was about the same.

I think that my entire point is that I get frustrated with some people who go to bat for this mod saying that it is "realistic" compared to the standard fatigue model. I don't find it any more or less "realistic" then the original model, so I can completely understand why this shouldn't be considered the "be all end all" fix to the problem. I just don't understand why others can't as well. It is important to understand that the system is already flawed since endurance is measured by a bar, and sailors can never be fatigued to the point that they collpse or are completely useless.

Anyway after writing this long post I am experiencing stress/fatigue myself. Maybe I can express this in an emoticon/graemlin. (Insert emoticon with an orange exclamation point next to it)

Maybe something like this:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif<span class="ev_code_RED">!</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you are trying to do is unrealistic, not the mod. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Why would any captain favour any particular grunt purely for the sake of keeping them fresh? He wouldn't. Run them all into the ground and top up a compartment with an officer if needed. Officers, of course, get better treatment and it makes sense to keep them (the most valuable and effective crewmen) as fresh as possible.

Adding an officer can put a 50% bar up to 100%. Adding a fresh grunt has never, in my experience so far, made much difference at all.

I use as few grunts as possible to run a compartment. When they're knackered, and the compartment fails to function, I top-up with as many more fresh grunts as needed. When they fail I swith the entire complement with fresh guys from quarters. At some point I run them all into the ground, and if a compartment fails at that point I use an officer. I've yet to have a compartment fail when it's fully manned, even when every grunt, warrant-officer and officer is at max fatigue.

I guess the bottom line is this...don't care about your crew's fatigue level, just accept that the entire crew is going to be max knackered, per reality. Care about their training and awards, because that's what makes the real difference, per reality (training = ability, awards = morale = ability). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 12:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
It is important to understand that the system is already flawed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this is the crux of the matter. All of your points assume that there can be some sort of 'realistic' fatigue/stress model. But with the game as it stands, there can't be. What my fatigue model does is remove the useless micromanagement and make managing the crew actually lead somewhere rather than to make 'busy-work' for the commander. It's not meant to be completely realistic because complete realism isn't an option. All I'm going for with this system is MORE realism and BETTER playability, and this system achieves both of those goals.

With my system you get to actually manage your crew as a real commander would - not by tucking them into bed every 8 hours as the standard game does, but by bringing the best people in for a specific task, and by training up specialists where specialist skills are needed. This is what a real commander does. Thus, more realism and better playability.

The other thing my system does is resurrect the specialist training model, which was fatally flawed in the original game. There was no need for specialists because you could always recover fatigue. What's the point of spending renown on a specialist, or even just giving the free specialist bonuses, when you can easily get a compartment running properly with a couple of hours spent in a bunk? With my system, specialists are not just an afterthought as they are in the standard game - they are essential to the smooth running of the boat, and after a couple of patrols they take away any need for the commander to worry about crew efficiency. Again, this is what specialists do on a real boat, so again, this is more realism and better playability.

There is one other thing, which relates to your specific complaint. Fatigued/stressed men aren't necessarily tired. This system isn't about tiredness - it's about battle stress. While there is a fatigue element in that, it's not something that can be cured by a few hours in a bunk. Stressed men can be awake and fully alert, yet they perform poorly. They don't need rest in a bunk. What they need is 3 weeks getting drunk and sleeping in a real bed, and all the prostitutes they can shake a stick at.

Anyway, even if it was a matter of getting rest in a bunk, the torpedo rooms usually contained bunks, so putting them in there isn't all that unrealistic anyway.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
just accept that the entire crew is going to be max knackered, per reality. Care about their training and awards, because that's what makes the real difference, per reality (training = ability, awards = morale = ability). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Precisely. This is what sorts the good commanders from the bad. A good commander knows how to get the best out of his men in the long-term. He has to make veterans out of green recruits. This is how the no-recovery fatigue model works.

I wonder if it might be a good idea to get rid of the exclamation points altogether? I feel that these markers cause people to panic unduly about the stress levels of the men. After all, when a man is fully stressed he's not collapsing - he's still working fine, just at a reduced capacity.

So, Kpt_Zig, what do you think? You know this mod, and clearly you understand the stress model better than most. Do you think I can do away with the fatigue exclamation marks? I don't think they're all that helpful, but what's your view of it?

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 12:41 PM
Just to put my pennies worth in.

I would not get rid of the mark, but can you not change the graphic to something else.

A little house maybe to represent home-sickness

A red s = stress

I would say a yellow warning triangle as in European safety = warning, however this may mean something else in other countries.

The exclamation seems to represent that urgent and instant action is needed. Believe it or not we humans have been conditioned to fear it lol.

Thats why people are rebelling against your mod Beery, because they get the instant fear and feel as though there is nothing they can do about it.

To rid it all together will mean too much micro management, checking there condition etc. This is fine for those who do not use time compression and have all the time in the world. There is however those of us who play this mod, who are just learning the art of self targeting, plotting etc. So when we get a contact out time is taken pannicking about solutions and approaches rather than looking at each soldier stats.

All in all I say keep the icon but change it to something more suitable or representive of the situation.

I have visions of my engineer being overworked till exhaustion and me then awarding him for his performance.

Hope this helped

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 01:20 PM
Personally I find the exclamation marks superfluous, if not distracting. By the time I get into combat most of my men, if not all of them, are max fatigued. I take max fatigue as granted.

The stock game has conditioned everyone, me included, to take notice of them when they are actually irrelevant to the mod and it's purpose. They equate, in real terms, to a crewman shouting at his commanders "Hey, feeling pretty knackered here!" Yes, you and everyone else mate. What do you want, tucking up in bed? Indeed, in the stock game that's exactly what they got.

Under full-real play a player will train the best suited men and disposition them accordingly and get good compartment efficiency under the most trying conditions. Until then he has, effectively, a green crew, per reality. With a few patrols under his belt he'll see real benefits from managing his crew well, per reality.

I actually consider the mod more realistic than you do Beery. As the patrol goes on the crew become less efficient, and only experience and training make a relevant difference. Your mod mimics that process perfectly. For me the exclamation marks are nothing more than an unsightly distraction that serve zero purpose other than to remind me how the devs made a poor implementation for the sake of make-work gameplay. Or, to be fair, maybe they just pitched the implementation at the average gamer, knowing simmers like you would raise the bar for fellow full-real simmers.

I've had my head ripped off on more forums than I can remember for being overly fanatical about full-real play. But my opinion is that if you have that vision, be totally true to it...'build it and they shall come'. But if some people like most of it, but want bits changed, let them know how to change it themselves per each request. If you have the patience and inclination. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What you are trying to do is unrealistic, not the mod. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the system is flawed period. Even Beeryus explains that below. On top of that, so what? I'm pointing out a flaw in the mod, that allows for unrealistic usage. Where in my post did I say that I actually use the mod that way?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why would any captain favour any particular grunt purely for the sake of keeping them fresh? He wouldn't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although the captain wouldn't care at all, that grunt's NCO/Team Leader sure as hell would. You can't tell me that an NCO in charge of a team wouldn't switch out his fatigued troops with fresh ones, especially in a cramped area such as a torpedo room, where having a fatigued crew member working under stressful conditions could very well cause injuries to other crew. It all depends on how they have trained as a team. If you load one torpedo and switch the men out, it will be done that way. If it is a two torpedo cycle then it will work that way. But I don't have NCO's running my crew, I do.

But you also state that you "top off" with officers. The theory goes that you will have an officer in there cracking the whip, while they are not doing any work, but do you ever have more NCO's in there than grunts? If you do, YOU are now running the model unrealistically. You should never have more chiefs than indians and anyone who has served in any military ever will tell you that it don't work that way. No E-5 or higher will ever do any work as long as there is an E-4 or lower around to do it instead. This is why my grunts are always smoked at the end, and maybe one officer has an excl. point by the end, 'cause I burn them out first. (NCO's vary)

BTW:

I don't fear the exclamation point, I am just saying that I don't think this mod significantly improves the system. See below.

To Beeryus:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by rudewarrior:
It is important to understand that the system is already flawed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well this is the crux of the matter. All of your points assume that there can be some sort of 'realistic' fatigue/stress model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that I made my true point, which is that the system itself is impossible to work with.

But my second point is this:

You stated that the system itself is fundamentally flawed, implying that no mod can make it realistic. You state that your mod makes it MORE realistic. In my opinion it does not make the game MORE realistic, it only might make the system somewhat LESS unrealistic. I know that this is semantics, but it is important to understand my primary point. The definition of "realism" is especially subjective in this case since it is arguable that each method is extremely unrealistic. What I am trying to get at is that I am tired of seeing people say that the mod is more realistic and that if you don't think so, then you don't know anything about the mod. I understand exactly what the mod is supposed to do, but you haven't convinced me that it is MORE realistic.

I understand what you are saying about them needing leave/booze/prostitutes, because it is all true. However, you cannot tell me that taking a 10 min break will not improve efficiency, ever.

I want to say that I prefer using the fatigue mod, but I would also like to say that IMO: that for me, the difference between the two mods is immeasureable/statistically insignificant by the defintion of realism. Which leads me back to my original point: Arguing that this mod is MORE realistic and somehow BETTER holds no water, and telling people that they just don't understand it isn't good enough for me, because I do understand it. I just don't agree that it is in fact MEASUREABLY BETTER OR MORE REALISTIC, and I don't think people should be punished for that. That is my point.

tiger_tim_34
05-05-2005, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
...if some people like most of it, but want bits changed, let them know how to change it themselves per each request. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the heart of the thread and the essence of all that was originally asked. I am *aching* to try Beery's acclaimed 2.02 World Mod but I too am discouraged by the alteration to the fatigue model. I like putting my crew to bed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gouldjg:
The exclamation seems to represent that urgent and instant action is needed. Believe it or not we humans have been conditioned to fear it lol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's what I've found out (to my dismay) over the last couple of weeks.

What if I change it to a black dot or blob? Maybe something a bit friendlier and less distracting than what amounts to a big red (or orange) <span class="ev_code_RED">WARNING!</span> sign.

I must admit I just ignore the <span class="ev_code_RED">!</span>, but it seems many people just can't. I'll try it with a little dot or blob, and I'll try to pretend like orange exclamation points scare the bejeezus out of me (hehe), and I'll see if a black blob works better.

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 01:47 PM
Kpt_Zig

What you say makes sence to me now.

I have just watched Das boot again, and noticed some of the men were, shall I say coming apart and some were not. A couple of scenes where one guy slaps another for praying instead of fixing the boat etc.

I suppose in the early days, after a few patrols, each uboat had a mixture of vets and green crew.

I only say keep an icon of some sort so we can distinguish easier the green crew from the vets.

As time goes bye, I am presuming that the trained and well managed crew will not get run down as fast as the green crew.

As we all know, in every Army or organisation, the newcommers and less experienced get the crappy jobs. The oldtimers/vets know when to rest and when to pull their weight.

So as someone was saying earlier about kepping crews in compartments because they can reduce no further is unrealistic. This mod seperates the Captains from the boys. In real life these critical points are when the experienced fellas kick in.

They kick the noobs into touch and get jobs done quicker.

I feel that a icon should help us know when to swap men around and what sections to put them in.

Its just that the icon is not right as it is.

Hope this makes sence to anyone as I am getting lost now lol.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
[You can't tell me that an NCO in charge of a team wouldn't switch out his fatigued troops with fresh ones... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is the fundamental flaw in your argument. You still think that these are fatigued men. They're not. I realise we still talk about it as 'the fatigue system', but we must understand that in my system it is not fatigue anymore. It's combat stress, which is entirely different. These men are fully rested - they take their rest periods and have the usual watch periods. They're not tired - they're stressed. Their work is as poor as if they were tired, but they are fully alert and they might not even be able to sleep even if they went to their bunks. In that situation, no amount of rest in a bunk will gain them any efficiency. That's why my system is absolutely MORE realistic, and not just less unrealistic.

If you keep seeing it as fatigue, it will appear to be unrealistic, but it's not fatigue.

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 01:55 PM
Rudewarrior, I wasn't levelling any particular criticism at you mate, just differing with your opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My take is that the entire crew would be inevitably knackered by week two at sea, combat or no combat, and I don't believe a few hours in a manky hammock would make a significant difference to their abilities. Training would. A green crew member is a green crew member no matter how much sack-time he gets, whereas a trained man can operate on 'auto-pilot' no matter how tired he is, within reason.

The mod removes the emphasis on sack-time in a rotten hammock and places it on experience and training. If we ignore the ephemeral inconsequentials we can see that the core is wholly realistic, and far far superior to the stock implementation. In my opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beery, I think the black dot is a fine idea. More like the Kapitan seeing the guy with bags under his eyes and a slight sway as he walks instead of hearing him shouting how bad he's got it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tiger_tim_34:
I am *aching* to try Beery's acclaimed 2.02 World Mod but I too am discouraged by the alteration to the fatigue model. I like putting my crew to bed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Until you try it (I assume you mean the Real U-boat mod, not the Worldmod), you can't know if you'll like it or not. Fear of this system has driven a bunch of people not to use it, but fear isn't usually a good basis from which to make decisions - especially not in this case. The people who have turned away from this part of the mod are currently playing a game where they do more work for less reward in a system that causes problems to other game features. My fatigue system fixes all that.

Also, your crew do go to bed in my version. They just don't need the captain to tuck them in anymore.

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 02:17 PM
What did they call extreme combat stress during WWII? "Battle FATIGUE," maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifAnyway the point I was making had to do with the "unrealistic" use of an "unrealistic" mod, not how I interpret the term "fatigue." That is a different situation altogether.

It is also arguable that combat stress might improve efficiency. Death is a pretty good motivator. You always run faster when you are shot at, but your shooting accuracy goes down, who can say? You can argue that your mod models this by the fact that troops improve/specialize, etc., but they do with the standard option, too.

One way of looking at it is this: If you see action on day one and incur a certain amount of "combat stress," (is it?) then see action later, my "combat stress" level is the same whether I see action 1 day later or 30 days later, and that IS unrealistic.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Again my point is: It is unarguable that this system is BETTER. I'm not saying it is worse, nor am I making any sort of attack on the modder or their work; I couldn't even attempt to begin coding something like this. To put it in statistical terms: The difference between this mod and the standard method is statistically insignificant. And I am not wrong simply because I don't understand it.

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 02:18 PM
Black dot, anything you fancy that changes the mark.

I like it better than the stock model.

We have to debate this and at least its not getting offhand.

What KPT_Zig says about green crew members and vets is absolutely true.
(done Army service myself and can totally relate to the discontent feeling you get when away from home for so long or when new recruits come in and I take the mick)

To keep an icon helps us (me anyway) rotate crew and maybe even plan to save my best till last etc etc.

I may want to follow the convoy till night and keep my better men in reserve for when it comes to the crunch.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
My take is that the entire crew would be inevitably knackered by week two at sea, combat or no combat, and I don't believe a few hours in a manky hammock would make a significant difference to their abilities. Training would. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. This is the heart of the matter. The fact is, we can view it as combat fatigue, or inexperience, or stress, but what it comes down to is plain old efficiency. An inexperienced man, a stressed man, and a man suffering from combat fatigue all have something in common, and that is that they are less efficient. They can only gain efficiency if they train.

If it was a case of plain old fatigue, a fatigued man can regain some efficiency by resting, whereas the a man suffering from combat fatigue, or a stressed man, or an inexperienced man cannot. My version of the fatigue system ignores straight fatigue - as I said, the crew get their rest. This system does something different - something more realistic with a system that was, in its original form, flawed. It certainly could not be made perfect as a straight fatigue system, but it is a lot more realistic when it's seen as a combat fatigue, stress, inexperience, or crew efficiency system.

Basically, if the developers had simply called it 'crew efficiency' rather than 'fatigue' we wouldn't be having this conversation now, because we would all be willing to accept that it's not plain old fatigue. All anyone needs to do is accept that it's not straight fatigue, and they will see that my system makes perfect sense. The problem is not with my system, the problem here is that some people aren't willing to change their preconceived notions of what this part of the game should be.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
What did they call extreme combat stress during WWII? "Battle FATIGUE," maybe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but any doctor will tell you that battle fatigue can't be cured by a couple of hours in bed.

The_Third_Half
05-05-2005, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
What did they call extreme combat stress during WWII? "Battle FATIGUE," maybe? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but any doctor will tell you that battle fatigue can't be cured by a couple of hours in bed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, depends on who you put them in bed with http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 02:34 PM
What we are talking about is better put as HUMAN FACTORS

Going back to some safety training I under took.

Human Factors is everything that effect the way we perform and what we do.

We have perception, motivation, physical & mental ability etc etc lots of laws of motivation and behavioual science going on in the workplaces and even in the forces.

We are all affected by the above and our Jobs as well as whatever organisation we are in affect this as well.

We can then go down the Human error route (cause of accidents in my language. Lapse of attention, mistaken action, mistaken priorities blah blah.

Obviously this is a bigger subject than what can be discussed here in one paragraph.

Maybe it would be better to call it a Human factors mod, and post a good readme up.

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ...a man suffering from combat fatigue... [is] less efficient. They can only gain efficiency if they train. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But not if they rest? I think this is the sticking point, and I just don't buy it. A person who incurrs 10% battle stress on day 1 then 10% on day 2, will be MORE combat stressed than a person who experiences 10% combat stress on day 1 and 10% on day 30, period. Granted, they are in a combat situation during those 30 days, but if they see no combat, then it is just routine mopping, cleaning, etc (and TRAINING for that matter). This will reduce battle stress.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Granted, they are in a combat situation during those 30 days, but if they see no combat, then it is just routine mopping, cleaning, etc (and TRAINING for that matter). This will reduce battle stress. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A U-boat is an environment where you are in constant danger. Battle stress ONLY reduces if you take the person out of imminent danger, and even then it takes weeks, months and sometimes years for a person to recover. An inexperienced crewman simply can't hop into a U-boat bunk and emerge 8 hours later completely unaffected by the fact that his life is in constant danger. Combat fatigue simply doesn't work that way. You keep saying it can, but it can't. This is why I say that you haven't accepted that this system is combat fatigue. Every argument you've made has at its heart the notion that crewmen should be able to regain efficiency by a few hours in bed. Only fatigue works like that, and this isn't fatigue.

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:04 PM
But you say it can improve with training.

Here is a situation:

Crew chief: The captain says that our last torpedo load against that convoy wasn't fast enough. We are moving to our new patrol zone and don't expect to see action for a few days. In the mean time we are going to train on torpedo loading until we get it right.

No, I am not saying that battle fatigue can improve with a few hours rest.

What I am saying is that stating combat fatigue will not reduce on a combat mission is false.

tiger_tim_34
05-05-2005, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
Also, your crew do go to bed in my version. They just don't need the captain to tuck them in anymore. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This made me smile, and has convinced me to give it a go. Everything else you have done makes abundant sense, so I'll go with you on this one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:11 PM
I think a lot of this comes down to the words being used, as mentioned by a couple of guys above. And the original word, "fatigue", has left us with pre-conceptions.

How about 'boredom'? If we call it boredom does it alter our perspective of the issue? Let's just pretend that the men are getting 8 hours of rack time in every 24 hours. What does the redding-out of that fatigue bar represent then? Lessening efficiency due to being bored. Then a touch of combat, depth-charging, and up with the exclamation mark! Now we have constant stress, lasting for the rest of the voyage. Fatigue is dealt with by the sleep the men ARE getting, but stress remains...and only training and experience can counter that.

At any point in a sim one has to utilize imagination to maintain a certain level of belief. With the original fatigue model I found it a real challenge to exercise enough imagination that I was able to maintain my belief in the situation. Sending the men to quarters every two hours in real time was a total nonsense. With Beery's mod I find the imagination exercise effortless, plus I get the fun of training my men up AND having it count towards a very realistic goal...higher crew efficiency.

I don't cheat myself in order to achieve an easier game; if a mod doesn't make me feel I'm playing a more realistic game I'll bin it, and say I've binned it, with stated reasons. I certainly wouldn't put it in DiD. DiD is about the only thing of worth (in my opinion) I've contributed to the online gaming community, and I'm very protective of it's standard. I certainly get a dash of pride every time I see someone refer to it, in whatever context. Which means it's important to me. Beery & Co's mod is in because I think it meets the DiD standard, and as I've been running DiD for over five years, in various guises, with hundreds of members who have acclaimed it's standard, I reckon I'm qualified to make a valid distinction.

That doesn't mean my opinion counts for a jot more than anyone else's, but it does mean mine is as qualified as the next guy's. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gouldjg:
Maybe it would be better to call it a Human factors mod, and post a good readme up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fear that no amount of explanation will work. If people keep insisting that the combat fatigue system MUST work like basic day-to-day tiredness, there's not much I can do to change that. We can explain how it's not tiredness all we want, but if people won't accept that, then there's not much point in discussing it. They either accept it or they don't. I could get experts in here to explain how combat fatigue works, but it wouldn't sway rudewarrior because he is convinced that the system is based on tiredness. He's not going to accept the experts on combat fatigue because according to him they're talking about a completely different phenomenon.

All I can say is that I designed the system to be based on combat stress. I know because I built it that way. People may continue to regard it as basic daily fatigue, but they're simply wrong. If I build a paper aeroplane and someone insists it's a dinner plate, all I can do is assure them that it's a paper aeroplane. If they won't see it that way, no amount of explaining will change their minds.

RPM502
05-05-2005, 03:16 PM
Yeah Nice one Beeryus. Keep up the good work mate. Anyway what is the secret to keeping them unfatigued?

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:19 PM
Look, no reason to get nasty.

I believe that it is combat stress, I just don't think it models combat stress (and fatigue for that matter) correctly, or at least any MORE correctly than the original. You insist on using vague definitions then I will, too.

Who ever implied that going to quarter meant sleeping on a bunk. Why can't they just be off duty? In a combat environment cruising to their next location not expecting action, that WOULD relieve stress, and you can call in all the experts you want, 'cause my wife is working on a Psych PH.D. and I ran this past her first, so if you want experts, bring em on!

Plus what about my training question? Are you saying it is impossible to train on a combat mission or not? If it is possible, then your model is flawed by your own argument.

I am not insisting your paper plane is a dinner plate. I am insisting that your paper plane is no better than the one that came with the game.

Who are you to decide what qualifications I make judgements by. Sheesh people and their egos.

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:19 PM
Here's the original DiD logo, created May 7th, 2000. Coo...the memories! Does anyone here recognize it? That would be a buzz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~siggi/generalimages/didsigsm.jpg

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tiger_tim_34:
This made me smile, and has convinced me to give it a go. Everything else you have done makes abundant sense, so I'll go with you on this one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I'm glad you're willing to take the plunge. Here I was thinking this thread was getting mired in fruitless argument, but clearly there's some benefit to the banter.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Look, no reason to get nasty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not getting nasty. I'm simply pointing out that you keep coming back to this idea that crew should be able to get rid of combat fatigue by resting in their bunks - despite the fact that I created the system and I keep telling you that it shouldn't be possible to recover combat fatigue in a bunk.

If the system was based on daily fatigue, why on Earth doesn't it start kicking in on day one of the cruise? Why does it only start to accrue during battles?

The fact is, the developers probably didn't mean it to represent daily fatigue. If they had, it wouldn't be affected by time compress settings, and it would act on the crew from the beginning of a patrol to its end.

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 03:33 PM
Just a quick question Beery,

When building this mod,

Was it possible to have one crew quarter allowing recovery and one not?

This has nothing to do with the current debate and in now way defers from the fact that your mod is the best one to date.

My mind is wondering in other areas now

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RPM502:
Yeah Nice one Beeryus. Keep up the good work mate. Anyway what is the secret to keeping them unfatigued? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The secret is partly to keep above 32x time compress when you're not in combat, partly to expose your crewmen to as little time in 'battle' compartments (repair and torpedo compartments) as possible, and partly not to care about crewmen becoming fully fatigued. If you do the first two things, you'll keep them more efficient longer, and the last one will allow you to run the boat after they've been reduced to their lowest values.

Finally, don't panic when those exclamation points start popping up. They are a good thing, because they mean that that crewmember can't get any less efficient.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~siggi/generalimages/didsigsm.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice logo!

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I am not insisting your paper plane is a dinner plate. I am insisting that your paper plane is no better than the one that came with the game.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's your fundamental point you are fundamentally wrong.

In the stock game it didn't matter a jot about training your men, or giving them awards, because a compartment could be run at max efficiency so long as the crew in it were well rested (max, or lots of, fatigue in hand). And to get that you had to wipe the crew's collective **** every two hours. A tedious chore that wrecked what should have been one of the most enjoyable parts of the sim, working up a top crew.

Beery's mod enables that part of the sim. It makes training and awards a fully necessary and enjoyable part of the sim, AND removes that tedious ****-wiping chore.

And the cherry on the cake is that it's highly realistic.

Nobody's being nasty, we're all just fighting our corners and doing it like adults...a bit of needle, a touch of barracking and a laugh at ourselves for being such sad kids. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:40 PM
Why does putting crew in quarters imply resting in their bunks? Can't it be time when they are playing cards, etc. In between missions, relaxing their minds as well as their bodies? That is what I actually assumed Quarters were. When I think of rest, I don't necessarily think of soldiers needing to rest their muscles, I'm talking about also resting their minds. This should have some effect on battle fatigue somewhere.

Again the statement

Battle fatigue cannot improve on a mission.

FALSE

Unless they train, which I gave a perfect, realistic scenario for. In that case my crew member in the torpedo room that I first mentioned should be getting better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

However, since you are stuck on the sleeping/bunk definition of quarters, how is it that battle fatigue stays exactly the same if they are "resting in their bunks?" I find it hard to believe that soldiers "resting in their bunks" accumulate no battle fatigue/stress/morale loss (or whatever other definition you want to apply) while depth charges are exploding all around. It doesn't fit and it is as unrealistic as the standard mod.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gouldjg:
When building this mod,

Was it possible to have one crew quarter allowing recovery and one not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fatigue recovery is basically determined by the crewman, not by the compartment. What that means is that you can have officers recover while crewmen don't, or you can have different rates of recovery based on rank. The compartments may have some kind of modifier that affects the basic crew recovery value (and if it does, you could have different compartments work differently), but I haven't been able to confirm this. I suspect that you can slow down recovery marginally in a compartment, but I doubt that you could make a big difference with the compartment settings.

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RPM502:
Yeah Nice one Beeryus. Keep up the good work mate. Anyway what is the secret to keeping them unfatigued? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The secret is partly to keep above 32x time compress when you're not in combat, partly to expose your crewmen to as little time in 'battle' compartments (repair and torpedo compartments) as possible, and partly not to care about crewmen becoming fully fatigued. If you do the first two things, you'll keep them more efficient longer, and the last one will allow you to run the boat after they've been reduced to their lowest values.

Finally, don't panic when those exclamation points start popping up. They are a good thing, because they mean that that crewmember can't get any less efficient. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is, indeed, the secret beauty. By time-compressing to battle you ensure 'Combat Fatigue' doesn't affect the crew when it shouldn't. So when you need to go to real time (in combat, or hunt/evasion) your crew are fully, or near fully, rested. Now the modded fatigue works as it should...combat stress begins to affect crew compartment efficiency, and the best solution to that is experience and training, NOT a few hours in a mangy hammock. Edit: Or playing cards. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I feel I came at the debate from a nice angle there...torpedo los!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Again the statement

Battle fatigue cannot improve on a mission.

FALSE </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Experts on battle fatigue would disagree with you.

Look, here's what it comes down to: if you don't like the mod, don't use it. If you think it could be improved, build a better one.

Only please stop telling me that a system I designed specifically NOT to have recovery should have recovery. I'm not going to change it, because it works very well as it is. Even if it was completely unrealistic it would still be better than the standard game's system. Why? Because unlike the standard game's system which rewarded 'busy work' with yet more 'busy work', this one gets players involved in a way whereby they get a positive "reward for work" system. You put in work, you get a reward. The system is both challenging and rewarding, and that is essential in any game system, whether it's realistic or not.

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I am not insisting your paper plane is a dinner plate. I am insisting that your paper plane is no better than the one that came with the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



If that's your fundamental point you are fundamentally wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> And the cherry on the cake is that it's highly realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, your OPINION supported with subjective statements has been noted, and I disagree with it, nothing more can be said. If you all are just going to continue arguing that it is realistic, then I'm off.

2 for.

1 against.

CYA, countering against opinions is tiring.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif<span class="ev_code_RED">!</span>

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
posted Thu May 05 2005 14:45
quote:
Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Again the statement

Battle fatigue cannot improve on a mission.

FALSE

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Experts on battle fatigue would disagree with you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And experts would also agree with me. Experts would also disagree that combat stress can stay the same when "resting in your bunk." Your point is?

I'm not saying that it WILL improve, just that it CAN under reasonable expectations.

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gouldjg:
Just a quick question Beery,

When building this mod,

Was it possible to have one crew quarter allowing recovery and one not?

This has nothing to do with the current debate and in now way defers from the fact that your mod is the best one to date.

My mind is wondering in other areas now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To expand a bit further on my question;-

I have not played too far into the game with your mod. I do however understand it and actually prefer it to any other.

I am getting the imperession that everyone is saying all crew will eventually get too a certain level of battle fatigue etc (whatever anyone wants to call it).

Rudewarrior does make a valid point about the practice drills on board boat etc and you make a very valid point about training and crew management.

I am looking at a more complicated model that may or may not put some balance to both sides of the argument.

I.e. We do have some control/influence over some of the men.

Again I am going into peer admiration (looking upto someone) and peer pressure, pep talk with the captain etc, good news, onboard humour.

I know this game cannot model valour and personal phycilogical strenghs of individuals but I do think this would help my imagination.

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
Why does putting crew in quarters imply resting in their bunks? Can't it be time when they are playing cards, etc. In between missions, relaxing their minds as well as their bodies? That is what I actually assumed Quarters were. When I think of rest, I don't necessarily think of soldiers needing to rest their muscles, I'm talking about also resting their minds. This should have some effect on battle fatigue somewhere.

Again the statement

Battle fatigue cannot improve on a mission.

FALSE

Unless they train, which I gave a perfect, realistic scenario for. In that case my crew member in the torpedo room that I first mentioned should be getting better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

However, since you are stuck on the sleeping/bunk definition of quarters, how is it that battle fatigue stays exactly the same if they are "resting in their bunks?" I find it hard to believe that soldiers "resting in their bunks" accumulate no battle fatigue/stress/morale loss (or whatever other definition you want to apply) while depth charges are exploding all around. It doesn't fit and it is as unrealistic as the standard mod. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the stock game we had to juggle the crew around like headless chickens because there isn't enough rest space in the U-Boot. Why can't the torpedo compartments be used as rest space, per reality? There's realism right down the khazi.
Beery's mod effectively enables those functions, assumes all the men are getting rest by default, and transforms the fatigue model into a combat-stress model, AND has it apply when it should apply...in combat.

It's sublime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~siggi/generalimages/didsigsm.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice logo! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. It was made by Jetlag, the same guy who coded our killboard. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 03:58 PM
FYI: Playability has NEVER been the issue here.

I don't really notice the micromanagement difference. Don't really know why, I just haven't noticed it. I'm not offering an opinion on playability, and I won't because, as I have said, I just don't pay attention to it. Shifting troops around is pretty routine for me.

The_Third_Half
05-05-2005, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I am not insisting your paper plane is a dinner plate. I am insisting that your paper plane is no better than the one that came with the game.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's your fundamental point you are fundamentally wrong.

In the stock game it didn't matter a jot about training your men, or giving them awards, because a compartment could be run at max efficiency so long as the crew in it were well rested (max, or lots of, fatigue in hand). And to get that you had to wipe the crew's collective **** every two hours. A tedious chore that wrecked what should have been one of the most enjoyable parts of the sim, working up a top crew.

Beery's mod enables that part of the sim. It makes training and awards a fully necessary and enjoyable part of the sim, AND removes that tedious ****-wiping chore.

And the cherry on the cake is that it's highly realistic.

Nobody's being nasty, we're all just fighting our corners and doing it like adults...a bit of needle, a touch of barracking and a laugh at ourselves for being such sad kids. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your statement about crew effeciency is wrong. Having a higher rank, and qualifications, and number of patrols all effect how well that said crew member does.
You stated you could fill a compartment full of fully rested men and get the same degree of effeciency. Thats not true.
Put a warrant officer on the bridge with 3 seaman any rank. Then remove the petty officer and replace him with a SR.Chief warrant officer and watch the effeciency bar jump real high. Which is why you must use the best men in Beerry's mod. Because only the best when completly exhuasted can do the job still.

There is nothing wrong with the original fatigue set-up, i believe it to be modeled correctly. Now this does not mean i am saying Beery's mod is wrong, because i'm not. Beery's mod and the orginal set up ultimatley reach the same end. A crew out to sea for a long time, comes home bored, tired, and stressed. The original design allows for the extension of a crew members worth. Off time is always better then at work. Can anyone disagree with that ? Sitting watching barny for 5 hours with my 2 year old is torturous, but always better then at work.
Beery's mod simulates the darker aspects, the " i cant get out of here " type of crew state.

I don't see either being better than the other. I for one don't mind the micromanagment, some do.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
That is, indeed, the secret beauty. By time-compressing to battle you ensure 'Combat Fatigue' doesn't affect the crew when it shouldn't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The other advantage is that it keeps you from spending 8 hours playing the game, which is very possible if you have no incentive to use high time compress. My family certainly prefers me to use this mod. Of course what they don't know is that it gives e the ability to play two patrols in the time it used to take me to play one, tee-hee.

Capt.LoneRanger
05-05-2005, 04:00 PM
Nice job to keep the IID running. Didn't try that, to be honest. But now, you be honest. Didn't you just exchange one micro-management system for another? Can you imagine what time it takes to get the sub you showed to reload a torpedo, have spotter crews and run on electric engines at the same time?

I just finished another patrol. As I sneaked to Liverpool, all the way around England I had to go in 32x. I spent more time exchanging crewmen and officers than before and still ended up with 20min loading times in a VIIC.

Realism is a bless and a system that models fatigue like yours is nice, really, but there's a difference between being fatigued and being tired. Actually that is, why there is morale and fatigue in the game. I was only seven days on open sea and I don't envy submarine crews today, who stay months below the surface. They must be living mummies after that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh, awww, forgot nuclear powered submarines have time-compression. j/k

dagamecat
05-05-2005, 04:04 PM
I just have to say that I too was sceptical about the fatigue system, and I just got back from my first patrol using real uboat 1.22, and it worked an absolute charm. No more tucking my crew members into their bunks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I love it, cheers to those involved! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rudewarrior
05-05-2005, 04:09 PM
I think Third Half hit the nail on the head big time. Each model has its strengths and weaknesses, and all I am trying to say is neither is better than the other, and touting it as the best mod ever, with the statement that if you don't believe it is so then you don't understand it is just unacceptable.

All I am trying to do is point out where the Beery's mod fails, and at the same time point out that the one coming with the game is NO BETTER OR WORSE (at least four times now).

I've been here just 1 day and I guess I committed a huge error in criticizing a mod, I guess I won't do that again.

Kpt_Zig
05-05-2005, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
I think Third Half hit the nail on the head big time. Each model has its strengths and weaknesses, and all I am trying to say is neither is better than the other, and touting it as the best mod ever, with the statement that if you don't believe it is so then you don't understand it is just unacceptable.

All I am trying to do is point out where the Beery's mod fails, and at the same time point out that the one coming with the game is NO BETTER OR WORSE (at least four times now).

I've been here just 1 day and I guess I committed a huge error in criticizing a mod, I guess I won't do that again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you see debate as error? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Gouldjg
05-05-2005, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
I think Third Half hit the nail on the head big time. Each model has its strengths and weaknesses, and all I am trying to say is neither is better than the other, and touting it as the best mod ever, with the statement that if you don't believe it is so then you don't understand it is just unacceptable.

All I am trying to do is point out where the Beery's mod fails, and at the same time point out that the one coming with the game is NO BETTER OR WORSE (at least four times now).

I've been here just 1 day and I guess I committed a huge error in criticizing a mod, I guess I won't do that again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not

Your entitled to your opinion

Some people are gonna love it and some are gonna hate it.

I will be using it for a few missions before I put a permanent stance as to it workings for the player.

Were all different and we all think different things when playing the game. Some things I am starting to think since having this discussion, will just not wash with some people and yet there may be some who like it.

I look at it like this.

Beerys mod allows me to think more when in port and I do not have a total system failure because I forgot to rotate my crew.

Stock game allows me to not worry about that side as much (still have to train but no great benefit) but it becomes a pain a leaves nothing to entertain my imagination after so many hours under 32 speed.

I like playing my imagination with crew management.

I would like the odd random super dude or dudes to be on the boat. You know, the guy you never expected pulling through until the last minute (ghost das).

I would also like to be able to simulate on board drills, buddy buddy etc. Ability to have some control.

Were never gonna get this perfect for everyones liking.

Its been nice guys but bed calls me.

p.s. Beery, what files need to be looked at to fiddle with crew management?

Pentallion
05-05-2005, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kpt_Zig:
Here's the original DiD logo, created May 7th, 2000. Coo...the memories! Does anyone here recognize it? That would be a buzz. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~siggi/generalimages/didsigsm.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember Jennifer's excellent little movie intro. With the sirens going off and the pictures flashing by. And Led Zepplin playing. That was awesome.

Anyways, back to the exclamation. How about you do away with it completely and instead replace the officer icon with one where the guy's grown a beard? By the end of the patrol eveyone should have grown beards!

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
Nice job to keep the IID running. Didn't try that, to be honest. But now, you be honest. Didn't you just exchange one micro-management system for another? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I didn't. You see the thing is, it looks at first as if you have just as much micromanagement as in the standard game, if not more, but that's only the case in the first couple of patrols. In your example you had to swap people around a lot. But as your career progresses you won't need to do this as much. In the original version of the game you'd still be juggling crewmen after your tenth patrol, whereas in mine you won't need to touch them because you'll have trained your crew so that they perform well. This crew training is ruled by an incentive system that doesn't exist in the regular game. In the regular game you never come to grips with the training system because you're taught to fear crew fatigue and to deal with it as if it was unacceptable. My system teaches you to embrace crew fatigue and deal with it in a realistic, playable and fulfilling way so that your natural sense of organization will lead you to remove all micromanagement by means of training your crew.

You're seeing only what the game demands of you in the first couple of patrols. Give it a couple more and each time, give crewmen specializations in running the compartments you're having the most problems with. You'll soon see that your problems disappear very quickly if you train your crew well.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gouldjg:
p.s. Beery, what files need to be looked at to fiddle with crew management? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's all in the Basic.cfg file. Each rank of crewman has a listing in there, and in each crewman/rank listing are some fatigue parameters. Also, each compartment in the sub has parameters for how fast crewmen gain fatigue while in that compartment.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pentallion:
Anyways, back to the exclamation. How about you do away with it completely and instead replace the officer icon with one where the guy's grown a beard? By the end of the patrol eveyone should have grown beards! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, that would be a nice way to do it. Sadly I don't think it's possible.

byepopejoy
05-05-2005, 10:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
here is one other thing, which relates to your specific complaint. Fatigued/stressed men aren't necessarily tired. This system isn't about tiredness - it's about battle stress. While there is a fatigue element in that, it's not something that can be cured by a few hours in a bunk. Stressed men can be awake and fully alert, yet they perform poorly. They don't need rest in a bunk. What they need is 3 weeks getting drunk and sleeping in a real bed, and all the prostitutes they can shake a stick at.

Anyway, even if it was a matter of getting rest in a bunk, the torpedo rooms usually contained bunks, so putting them in there isn't all that unrealistic anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Beery has created an excellent mod, but that the "no recovery" for battle fatigue is not realistic. For example, the U.S. Army has spent a lot of time and effort defining (http://www.bragg.army.mil/528csc/FM22-51Ch5.htm) and dealing (http://www.bragg.army.mil/528csc/GTA21-3-4.htm) with battle fatigue (also known as "combat stress reaction, etc.): the U.S. Army has known since the First World War (http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/co2/CO2_book/Fa8.htm) that "rest" is something that can both help prevent and restore soldiers from battle fatigue. This is echoed by the U.S. Marine Corps (http://www.okinawa.usmc.mil/Public%20Affairs%20Info/Archive%20News%20Pages/2003/030207-csp.html).

Since it seems to me (based on the above citations) that rest does in fact help eliminate battle fatigue, I just make few slight modifications to the BASIC.CFG file after installing Real Uboat. If you really like the unmodified stress levels, just reset them to the values in the original BASIC.CFG file. You did save that somewhere, didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Anyways, here are some things to look for in the BASIC.CFG file:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>find the "[CREW_n]" variables where "n" ranges from "0" to "8" (e.g., "[Crew_0]" is "Seaman"; "[Crew_8]" is a "Lieutenant Sr.") and adjust the "FatigueMin", "FatigueMax" and "FatigueStep" as desired.
<LI>find the "[FATIGUE_COEF]" section that defines the impact of stress in different situations for crewmembers in different compartments and adjust accordingly.
[/list]
The [FATIGUE_COEF] factors aren't that well-documented, but it appears to me that
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>"RegularFactor10", "RegularFactor20", etc., affects stress for routine surface operations
<LI>"RegularFactor11", "RegularFactor21", etc., affects stress for routine submerged operations
<LI>"SpecificFactor10", "Specific Factor11", etc., affects stress for surface combat operations
<LI>"SpecificFactor11", "RegularFactor21", etc., affects stress for submerged combat operations
<LI>"BadWeather1", "BadWeather2", etc., deals with the effects of stormy weather-surfaced or submerged.
[/list]
For example, the unmodified specific factors for compartments six and seven (fore and aft quarters) are -0.1, indicating crewmen here during combat will lose, rather than gain, stress; in RealUboat they are -0.03, indicating minimal relief compared to the unmodified version.

Personally, I reset the "SpecificFactors" higher for exposed positions (conning tower, main gun, AA guns) on the surface, as well as folks exposed during really rough weather. I also reset the quarters recovery rates back to the original -0.1 values - assuming that folks there are either sleeping or are on light duty somewhere in the submarine. That allows slow accretion of stress over time for crewmen at normal duty stations, lots of new stress during combat, and the use of experienced officers and warrant officers to hold things together (as per RealUboat), but also allows some recuperation if the captain (or the fortune of war) gives the crew a chance to recover.

Pablo

Pr0metheus 1962
05-05-2005, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by byepopejoy:
the U.S. Army has known since the First World War that "rest" is something that can both help prevent and restore soldiers from battle fatigue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. But it's long-term rest, and rest outside of the war zone. To quote from your source (which, by the way, severely downplays the effects of battle fatigue):

"Sometimes your buddies or you may have to go to the rear or to a medical unit to get that rest."

Here's another source. This is from the Virtual Naval Hospital (http://www.vnh.org/GTA/GTA2135.html):

"Warning Battle Fatigue Signs:
- They don't improve somewhat after good rest"

Surely that tells you that according to the Navy at least, rest can't cure battle fatigue.

No one in the US armed forces seriously thinks for one minute that battle stress can be mitigated by 8 hours spent in a bunk bed on the front lines. If it could be, battle stress wouldn't even be a consideration for the armed forces, since the standard watch rotation would take care of it. Like I said before, if anyone here thinks that battle stress is merely a form of 'tiredness', they have an awful lot to learn about it.

Anyone who bases the argument on the idea that battle stress can be fixed by a spell in the Heckraum or the Bugraum will never convince me. That argument is not persuasive, and I just don't buy it. If the only thing anyone can come up with as an argument to prove that the Real U-boat 'fatigue' system is flawed is that battle stress should be recoverable during a patrol, I'm sorry, but I will never agree to that. I don't agree because it is patently false. I've never heard anyone who knows about such things seriously argue that battle stress or combat fatigue can be fixed by a few hours in bed. It's almost as ludicrous as the British army in WW1 suggesting that it was caused by 'cold feet' or a lack of moral fiber.

The method I've developed will not be changed to a fatigue recovery system. My system works as it is, and the ONLY reason it works so well is that it has no recovery. It simply would not work if it had recovery built in because that would remove the incentive to train the crew. I think it's a better system, and that's really all that matters to me. I tune the mods I assemble to my own personal tastes, and if my personal tastes coincide with those of others, that's great. Everyone else can make their own mods, or use someone else's mod, or adjust the Real U-boat mod to suit them, but I will not adjust a mod based on an argument I find to be unpersuasive.

Although I'm willing to change things based on criticism, the criticism has to make sense to me, and this one just doesn't. In my view it is fueled by fear of those little red exclamation marks. No one who dislikes this system has played more than a couple of patrols with it. They can't have, because if they had, they would see how well it works, how realistic it is, and how it actually makes crew management fun and interesting rather than the meaningless chore that it is in the standard version of the game.

byepopejoy
05-06-2005, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by byepopejoy:
the U.S. Army has known since the First World War that "rest" is something that can both help prevent and restore soldiers from battle fatigue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. But it's long-term rest, and rest outside of the war zone. To quote from your source (which, by the way, severely downplays the effects of battle fatigue):

"Sometimes your buddies or you may have to go to the rear or to a medical unit to get that rest."

Here's another source. This is from the Virtual Naval Hospital (http://www.vnh.org/GTA/GTA2135.html):

"Warning Battle Fatigue Signs:
- They don't improve somewhat after good rest"

Surely that tells you that according to the Navy at least, rest can't cure battle fatigue.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the site you cited http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, there are two levels of battle fatigue: "Common" and "Warning." Here is the complete quotation:

Warning Battle Fatigue Signs
Warning signs deserve special action but do not necessarily mean casualty must be evacuated. Even normal, common signs become warnings if:
* They still disrupt the mission after you take action
* They don't improve somewhat after good rest
* Soldier is acting very differently from his/her normal behavior.


This does NOT say that "rest can't cure battle fatigue" - it says that what you thought was "common" battle fatigue may actually be "warning" battle fatigue (something a lot more serious) if rest doesn't cure it.

I suggest looking a bit further in the "Naval Hospital" site (it's not an official U.S. Navy site, but anyways...) and review the section titled, "Leader Actions for Common (and Warning) Battle Fatigue" for the following information:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Assign easy tasks to soldiers showing BF.
<LI>Assure best possible medical aid and rapid evacuation of wounded (and respect for dead)
<LI>When tactical mission and safety permit have team:
- Drink from canteens; prepare hot or cool drinks
- Pass around snacks; prepare food and share it.
- Dry off, cool down, or warm up when needed
- Clean up; change clothes; clean weapons.
- Use rapid relaxation techniques to unwind
- Stay away from alcohol/drugs.
- Keep busy (maintenance, recreation) if not resting.
<LI> Provide sleep opportunities for everyone (even you) according to SOP:
- Safe from accidents, vehicles, enemy attack.
- 4+ hours if possible (6- 10+ hrs ideally)
- Even 15-30 min. catnaps help, but may be groggy upon awakening.
[/list]
This seems to me pretty conclusive that even the Navy believes that rest (and other things) will help with battle fatigue.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
No one in the US armed forces seriously thinks for one minute that battle stress can be mitigated by 8 hours spent in a bunk bed on the front lines. If it could be, battle stress wouldn't even be a consideration for the armed forces, since the standard watch rotation would take care of it. Like I said before, if anyone here thinks that battle stress is merely a form of 'tiredness', they have an awful lot to learn about it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is plainly not "tiredness", but according to your own sources, rest is a prescribed treatment for battle fatigue.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
Anyone who bases the argument on the idea that battle stress can be fixed by a spell in the Heckraum or the Bugraum will never convince me. That argument is not persuasive, and I just don't buy it. If the only thing anyone can come up with as an argument to prove that the Real U-boat 'fatigue' system is flawed is that battle stress should be recoverable during a patrol, I'm sorry, but I will never agree to that. I don't agree because it is patently false. I've never heard anyone who knows about such things seriously argue that battle stress or combat fatigue can be fixed by a few hours in bed. It's almost as ludicrous as the British army in WW1 suggesting that it was caused by 'cold feet' or a lack of moral fiber.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your own source says that rest is one of the things that helps recover from battle fatigue. The way I think of "assignment to the heckraum or the bugraum" is that they're doing things like eating, sleeping, minor maintenance work, learning hydrophone skills, and anything else a good first officer could think of to keep a crewman's mind off combat that doesn't involve being on full duty in the torpedo rooms, on watch, manning the deck gun, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Beeryus:
The method I've developed will not be changed to a fatigue recovery system. My system works as it is, and the ONLY reason it works so well is that it has no recovery. It simply would not work if it had recovery built in because that would remove the incentive to train the crew. I think it's a better system, and that's really all that matters to me. I tune the mods I assemble to my own personal tastes, and if my personal tastes coincide with those of others, that's great. Everyone else can make their own mods, or use someone else's mod, or adjust the Real U-boat mod to suit them, but I will not adjust a mod based on an argument I find to be unpersuasive.

Although I'm willing to change things based on criticism, the criticism has to make sense to me, and this one just doesn't. In my view it is fueled by fear of those little red exclamation marks. No one who dislikes this system has played more than a couple of patrols with it. They can't have, because if they had, they would see how well it works, how realistic it is, and how it actually makes crew management fun and interesting rather than the meaningless chore that it is in the standard version of the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one says you have to change it. I agree it is more convenient - but I disagree (given the above citations, including your own) that it is more realistic.

Pablo

rudewarrior
05-06-2005, 07:27 AM
Again, the belief that if you don't like the system you haven't played it enough. Ok, define enough, I've used it on approximately 15 patrols, and I don't find it any more realistic.

Again, if combat stress cannot be reduced by spending 8 hours in a bunk, then you imply spending time in a bunk doesn't have any significance whatsoever, so why does it not change at all in your mod? Personally, if I was in my bunk versus the engine or torpedo rooms, I think I would experience more stress since I couldn't do anything to "fight back" like work in the torpedo room, work in the engine room, or command the ship, etc, especially with depth charges dropping all around.

Here is yet another argument.

Suppose a sub is cruising freshly out of port and lo and behold they come across an unarmed convoy. They are firing torpedos and firing the deck gun like well oiled clockwork. Eventually they sink ships, but they have to reload the torpedos. They are doing so well that their efficiency (supposedly the dipstick that defines crew "battle stress") actually increases, despite the fact that they are physcially tired. Even though they have experienced high battle stress, is it absolutely NOT possible that their efficiency can increase?

Again, you used the source to quote the arguement, that SOMETIMES they have to go to the rear, that is the key word. You can't have it both ways, and that is the point.

I've seen you say twice now: If you don't like it don't use it.

Well some people don't want to but its wrapped in other mods, tell them how not to use it and they will be happy.

But the thing I am having trouble with is the:

"If you don't like it make your own."

I've already expressed that you are far better than this at me, and I can stroke your ego some more if you like, but if you can't take FEEDBACK, maybe you shouldn't be modding so much, or at least not making such an emotional investment, because several arguments have been made questioning your model, and you still respond: Just use it because it IS BETTER and IS MORE REALISTIC. I think it is going in the right direction, it just needs some tweaking.

And as far as I am concerned, the rest of your mods are absolutely KICK ***. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

The_Third_Half
05-06-2005, 07:49 AM
This doesn't pertain soo much to beery's mod, but to the discussion over all.
The only thing that travels through a ship, faster than the flu, is a good joke. And you can actually tell the difference between people after they hear it.
We had a guy with a Tandy-100 computer, RadioShack's version of the commodore 64. And people would line up to wait and play it. Silly little things like that make a huge difference.

rudewarrior
05-06-2005, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The way I think of "assignment to the heckraum or the bugraum" is that they're doing things like eating, sleeping, minor maintenance work, learning hydrophone skills, and anything else a good first officer could think of to keep a crewman's mind off combat that doesn't involve being on full duty in the torpedo rooms, on watch, manning the deck gun, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more. Beeryus seems to think that being in quarters is "lying in your bunk for eight hours," like a sailor sitting in the torpedo room for non-combat action, since you couldn't fit him anywhere else, would be "loading torpedos for eight hours."

Many a combat manual and story show that the best way to get men to stop panicking and get under control (hence "reducing battle stress") is to get them doing something, anything. There are so many stories about officer's and nco's coming across men who are out of it in terms of morale/battle fatigue/stress tiredness, and the first thing that they do is get them started on something, usually something trivial and menial like cleaning their weapons or digging fighting positions. Sure this is a day-to-day issue but leaders have recieved training on how to REDUCE battle stress not only on a day-to-day basis but over time as well.

Kpt_Zig
05-06-2005, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The way I think of "assignment to the heckraum or the bugraum" is that they're doing things like eating, sleeping, minor maintenance work, learning hydrophone skills, and anything else a good first officer could think of to keep a crewman's mind off combat that doesn't involve being on full duty in the torpedo rooms, on watch, manning the deck gun, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more. Beeryus seems to think that being in quarters is "lying in your bunk for eight hours," like a sailor sitting in the torpedo room for non-combat action, since you couldn't fit him anywhere else, would be "loading torpedos for eight hours."

Many a combat manual and story show that the best way to get men to stop panicking and get under control (hence "reducing battle stress") is to get them doing something, anything. There are so many stories about officer's and nco's coming across men who are out of it in terms of morale/battle fatigue/stress tiredness, and the first thing that they do is get them started on something, usually something trivial and menial like cleaning their weapons or digging fighting positions. Sure this is a day-to-day issue but leaders have recieved training on how to REDUCE battle stress not only on a day-to-day basis but over time as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Beery thinks that his mod is more realistic than the stock modelling. He's right, and most other users, who expressed a preference, agree.

You carry on sending each and every man to quarters every two hours, to be tucked in by Kappy. Or play cards, have a quickie off the wrist or whatever. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The rest of us will rely on careful training and trust the men to take care of their own rest schedule. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rudewarrior
05-06-2005, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The rest of us will rely on careful training and trust the men to take care of their own rest schedule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I seem to be doing the same thing, except that I seem to believe in training my men during the mission instead of just in between. If you want to let your men **** off during the down time and not improve efficiency, then I'll see you in Davy Jones' locker whilst I get to spend time with a nice Fraulein in port. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Like I said I don't have a preference.

The_Third_Half
05-06-2005, 08:35 AM
I would just like to state :
That i'm not bashing Beery's mod. Infact i'm very appreciative of his hard work. Ever since SH 1 , I've come to depend and rely on the community, people like Beery, to improve my favorite games. SH2 would have been a complete disaster had it not been for the modding community.
Infact in refference to the realUboat mod, i find the mod it'self to be a great add on, the only reason i don't use it, is the fatigue model isn't for me. The rest of it looks great and i would love to use it ; I'm not saying his fatigue model is wrong, or bad, just it's not for me. hehe apperantly it's not for rudewarrior either, but thats not here or there.

Inshort like beery said, if you don't like it don't use it. Beery, and the rest of the mod community plz, keep up the good work and continue the mods. Plz.

Kpt_Zig
05-06-2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The rest of us will rely on careful training and trust the men to take care of their own rest schedule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I seem to be doing the same thing, except that I seem to believe in training my men during the mission instead of just in between. If you want to let your men **** off during the down time and not improve efficiency, then I'll see you in Davy Jones' locker whilst I get to spend time with a nice Fraulein in port. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Like I said I don't have a preference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're training them? When, during their two-hour shift or when Kappy's tucking them in? I don't think I want to know what kind of training is going on during the latter. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rudewarrior
05-06-2005, 08:57 AM
I dunno, but I guess your men do circle jerks in the quarters to maintain status quo on battle stress while depth charges are dropping all around? It might maintain the status quo on your battle stress, but not mine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

RPM502
05-06-2005, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The secret is partly to keep above 32x time compress when you're not in combat, partly to expose your crewmen to as little time in 'battle' compartments (repair and torpedo compartments) as possible, and partly not to care about crewmen becoming fully fatigued. If you do the first two things, you'll keep them more efficient longer, and the last one will allow you to run the boat after they've been reduced to their lowest values.

Finally, don't panic when those exclamation points start popping up. They are a good thing, because they mean that that crewmember can't get any less efficient. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Nice One.

Kpt_Zig
05-06-2005, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
I dunno, but I guess your men do circle jerks in the quarters to maintain status quo on battle stress while depth charges are dropping all around? It might maintain the status quo on your battle stress, but not mine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My men bang on the hull with hammers when it looks like the Tommies have given up (hard as nails my boys), and that's down to training, not getting all snug with the Kaleun in a sweaty hammock. We knock back depth-charges like beer nuts. What do your guys do when the banging starts? "Ooh, Kappy, we're scared! Please tuck us in all nice and tight and read us a bed-time story. And can I have Ribena in my dummy please?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Beery's mod produces real men. The stock model produces weak-willed tossers who'll be taking their boat on it's last dive so fast the paint'll peel off the hull. Arf! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
05-06-2005, 02:14 PM
Hehe, this thread is a lark. I find it especially funny that people are bashing the mod who have either never used it, or who gave it one patrol and then gave up. I'll bet the most vociferous critics have never even got to patrol #3 while using my fatigue system.

Anyway, I have better things to do than try to convince folks who simply don't want to listen to me. This thread has devolved into a place for some folks who simply want to convince others not to use my fatigue system. Let's not fool ourselves - the critics were never interested in realism. If they were, we'd be making comparisons with the realism of other mods and the official version, but we're not. No one has even suggested that any other mod is more realistic, and certainly no one has suggested that the original version is more realistic. What we're left with is criticism for its own sake. It's not helpful, it's not constructive, and it's not very persuasive.

While it's kind of flattering that people are so afraid of my system that they would desperately try to decrease its popularity, it's also a bit silly, because I really wouldn't care a bit if I was the only one using it.

If people want to make their gameplay experience harder, less rewarding, and less realistic, that's entirely their problem, but when they try to convince others to suffer in the same way, that's kinda lame.

I'll just sit back and watch the fireworks from now on. I love the ribald humour by the way. I got a good chucle out of Kpt_Zig's last couple of posts. Keep it up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

blue_76
05-06-2005, 02:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

well, I for one. Gave your mod a try Beery. I must say I was quite impressed. Good job! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SleazeyWombat
05-06-2005, 04:18 PM
Berry:
I'm the guy that started this thread. You are right, it was after just one patrol.

However, I've learned to live with it, and am working on getting my crew in shape so that I don't suffer the "Insufficient crew in ... compartment" messages.

After my third patrol, I still get the insufficient crew, because I haven't built up enough watch standers, etc.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-06-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ******yWombat:
Berry:
I'm the guy that started this thread. You are right, it was after just one patrol.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not blaming you, or any of the others who came here, frustrated, thinking that this system was always going to be that frustrating. Most of them were willing to give it a go, but they just wanted some help figuring it out.

My ire is focused on those who don't use the mod, but who desperately want to stop others from using it. These folks are just spoilers. They found something they don't like (not that they gave it much of a chance), and they so badly want others not to like it too. It's a little sad, but it's funny too.

rudewarrior
05-06-2005, 04:45 PM
I think I am just going to chalk this discussion up to the fact that some people can't take a little feedback. I'm still gonna use the mod until something that IS realistic comes along.

I mean if you've got people using your own sources to validate points against you and you can't even admit that it just might need to be changed, maybe, then you have issues with taking criticism, period.

Kpt_Zig
05-06-2005, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rudewarrior:
I think I am just going to chalk this discussion up to the fact that some people can't take a little feedback. I'm still gonna use the mod until something that IS realistic comes along.

I mean if you've got people using your own sources to validate points against you and you can't even admit that it just might need to be changed, maybe, then you have issues with taking criticism, period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it would be valid to say that you don't seem to take feedback on your feedback too well either. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You've given your opinion, an opinion, and others have sought to counter it. That's called debate, and we inform ourselves by it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif