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InsaneDriver06
05-17-2007, 03:30 PM
Why Driver needs (or not) On Foot Gameplay...

So why offer the option to step out of your vehicle if the Driver series is all about stunt driving and fast action vehicle chases?

What are your thoughts? Why doesn't Need for Speed Underground offer on foot? Why doesn't Test Drive Unlimited offer on foot? Why doesn't Midnight Club 3 offer it? All open city games that would bring another level of replay value had they offered on foot?

GTA offers it, and look how successful it does. Above all else, the ability to enter and exit your vehicle, acting as a separate character, is not exclusive to the GTA series. It's something every driver in the real world does. Afterall, a vehicle is a form of transporting a PERSON to a location preferably faster than on foot, much like a horse used to do in the old days.

But when, in a game that's focused on Driving Hollywood Stunts and chases, does it become necessary to step outside the vehicle? Why make it an option for players beyond offering more freedom but nothing to do (Driver PL)?

There's exploration, interiors, stores, gunfights, climbing, jumping, running, rolling, walking, ducking, and plenty more to do on foot in the same city, which is actually two games in one. One explored by a car, the other on foot. And there's plenty of opportunites for Tanner to do some "on the hood" vehicle stunts, like clinging to the hood, leaping from vehicle to vehicle, motorcycle stunts, shooting from a vehicle and more, that requires an on foot character.

That's really the most I can think of, but I really want to see the freedom to walk on foot in the new Driver game above all else, besides an interior Dash view and the next level in Hollywood Car Chase and Stunt action.

Assaultmachine1
05-22-2007, 03:28 PM
I'm really sorry to say this, but after looking at where the Driver series has turned in its direction since Driv3r, all of the Driver games have been on a smaller scale than both the first and second game. The big fault of that is because Reflections turned the franchise into something that it doesn't require and has a hard time with figuring out any really good features that can go along with it. The real question is, should Reflections focus on the on-foot if they weren't able to handle it very well in any of the Driver games?

I think that the on-foot ruined the whole scope of the franchise and that could mean doom for the Driver series if Reflections holds onto it much longer. It's caused enough damage as to how it was being used in D3, DPL, and D76. Driver 2, too, didn't offer very much to do when walking, so I wouldn't say that it was that much of a good game either, but I'd say that it was good or great, not being excellent, like I would normally consider Driver to be because of its amazing focus on the driving.

The blame for using on-foot is not what I only consider as the reason why the Driver series has fallen apart. The other reasons why it has been falling apart is because of Reflections spending more money on making the cutscenes look bad, not being able to get good talented testers on fixing the glitches in the first three Driver games, and all of the features feel standard for a open-world driving game as opposed to being able to surpass GTA's ideas and improve it as well as change anything for the better. It feels like a complete wreck where there is no way for Tanner to get out of, unless he uses his driving skills somehow, rather than abandoning his car, which then feels like abandoning his job or his hope. There is a lot that is the fault of Reflections and for that, I'm really dissapointed. While I still like the first two games, I don't like how its turning out to be.

Reflections would probably be best off if they started off where the first game left off, continuing to build Tanner from there rather than after D2 or any other Driver game since the focus would feel really similar and quite possibly, it could make for a sequel that is close enough to actually offer as much as the first game did. You guys keep saying to offer the on-foot abilities and to make it exactly like the GTA games, but there is more to the franchise than you see. What I know is that it is mainly about awesome hollywood car chases, smart cops (Driver 1 had it), the Film Director, and both great feel for the physics and damage of what it feels like when driving. It wasn't generally intended to have on-foot until we asked for it and I think that we made it as a part of the problem for the franchise.

We look at all those possible things that can be explored for when you follow up as a character and is not inside of a vehicle, but there can be free-roaming done for cars and other vehicles too. Personally, I think that we need the old Driver back, as soon as possible. Rockstar North has made Reflections struggle with the rest of the Driver games since they put forth so many new ideas into their games while Reflections can't find anything else to do with their own games. Why should Reflections follow the path of the GTA games when they can try to work harder and move into a new direction, paving the road for other open-world games. An open-world game is not defined by whether it offers on-foot or not, it is by the kind of setting that it has, which is a city and it offers you to do more than just work along the lines of a story of the game while also offering many choices of what can be done. Driver 1 had that feel.

Let me ask this. Would you feel more proud if Reflections was able to delve deeper than GTA, providing itself a new direction and allowing more for the genre or do you expect the Driver series and every other open-world game to always be behind and have the GTA franchise be its main inspiration? Is there nothing that can be done for many choices of the vehicle or is the on-foot the only possible choice that exists for every existing open-world game? Ask yourself these questions and reply back, giving a good argument or agreement as to what I have here as my post.

InsaneDriver06
06-08-2007, 09:25 AM
Assault Machine,

Sorry for the delayed response.

I'll take Driver 1 and compare it to Driver 2.

Driver 1: No on foot, stuck in the car, once the car is toast, the chase is over, putting the focus on 'staying alive'. If the car tips on its side or its roof, game over.

Driver 2: Offers the ability to choose ANY vehicle you see, and no longer stuck inside your ride when the car flips over or burns up. This is a huge advantage, and gives players the chance to continue the chase. Without guns interfering, the focus remains on getting to your next vehicle to escape, rather than relying on shooting.

Technical issues aside (severe slowdown, pop in), I really enjoyed Driver 2 because it offered on foot, car jacking and a new freedom to experience a giant city not only in a car, but on foot as well, as though we were right there, walking through the city.

I think guns are the problem more than on foot, since guns pop tires, stopping the whole point of the game, car chases. Without a gun, Tanner has no greater choice than to grab another ride.

Can they make it work with a hand gun? Instead of shooting out tires on the move, the cops could shoot them out only when your car stops, forcing you to keep moving for the sake of the chase. When you flip over, you're not stuck, you can crawl out and grab another ride, offering epic chases not possible in Driver 1.

Assaultmachine1
06-20-2007, 09:44 AM
If Reflections can finish the multiple careers and in making the rest of the driving experience both as good and real as possible, then they can go as far as making the on-foot with RPG and FPS elements, which would really polish up many parts of the game. Although San Andreas has seen much of that of a concept, it would still be okay because I'm sure that the rest of the Driver game would be a new experience, which is different from GTA. After all, Driver uses GTA elements and GTA uses Driver elements, so it isn't that bad to include it, but only as long as the majority of the gameplay is done by Reflections and is a new and big experience for us to have.

InsaneDriver06
06-21-2007, 05:31 PM
Even if they had to spend an extra year adding 10 driving careers to the game, I'd say it'd be worth the wait, but it might be better to include it in a download or sequel if they're already well underway with their current plans. Hopefully, they'll consider the awesome option to choose your own driving career.

Assaultmachine1
06-21-2007, 06:49 PM
Well, I think that if they are going with the thought of the current approach to the Driver series, all that Reflections would have to do is continue with making the graphics look great, provide us with the great car chases in the undercover cop or gangster career as seen in D1, D2, and DPL, continue to give us more in TAR mode, but eliminate the side missions, leave plenty of room for many other missions, so that there will be a variety of other career paths to choose from, and continue to do everything else as planned from the start. After all, Haze, a game by those who created the Timesplitters franchise called Free Radical, has had changed elements seen over time and the build of the game looks a lot more impressive than how it began in the beginning, so Reflections can do the same and incorporate the concept of multiple careers, giving it an edge of becoming an even bigger competitor in both the free-roam genre and in the 7th generation. Also, Ubisoft really wants to make the Driver franchise as good as possible, so if they see such an idea, I think that they would find it as the perfect idea for the next Driver game and for it to make money.

Driverman2006
06-21-2007, 07:06 PM
No, the rest of the Driver games need the open world structure. See, that's what f**ked Driver 76 up. They returned to the isolation $#!+ from the first three Driver games. Take-a-ride in Drivers 1, 2, 3, and 76 is DESERT-ED. There's nothing to do (if you want). Front-end menus only suck the magic out of the game. Damn it, when I'm bored in a driving game, I want to go do something in the game (story missions and side missions). I don't want to cross a menu. In my opinion, open world structure games have more replay value than those with front-end menus.


Sorry for my little rant, but don't come cryin' to me if the next Driver game is sucky. I'm trying to make it better.

Assaultmachine1
06-21-2007, 07:13 PM
Why does it always seem like I am discussing the use of the front-end menu when I'm not? Hell, I have even been able to live without such an idea when the pause menu is enough or even for you to find things to do by going about in the city.

As for my multiple career concept, how do you feel about it, Driverman2006?

Driverman2006
06-21-2007, 07:17 PM
Yeah, but what's all of this stuff that you're saying about removing the side missions and putting take-a-ride mode back in? Looks like you want the front-end menu back. I don't mean to be hasty, I'm actually curious.

Assaultmachine1
06-21-2007, 07:24 PM
Oh. Now I know why you brought it up. I mentioned TAR mode, so I'm sorry that I did so when I didn't intend on doing it anyways, especially when I'm fine without a front-end menu. Hell, an open city way of finding things to do is a better idea since it feels as something new and is even more realistic. As for the pause menu, it could be there for looking up the map and going in to the options.

Driverman2006
06-21-2007, 07:29 PM
OK, that's understandable now. I do support the pause menu. All games need that, regardless of genre. I just loved D:PL's open-world structure and streaming technology. That's why I can play it over and over again without getting bored. There's just more magic and fun in the cities (not to be whitty in a way) when playing an open-world game.

Assaultmachine1
06-21-2007, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't say that all games need it, but games who can be classified in the free-roam game genre do need it.

Resident Evil is one of the reasons why not all games deserve really to have the pause menu. The pause menu is mainly made for open-world games in a city, not a game that revolves more about its storylines and has modes of different ways to play the game. Resident Evil has different modes to play the game and it would feel weird to be forced in starting off the game with the choice of what to do after beginning the story, but if Resident Evil was to change and focus a lot on the city, that would be a different story. Other than that, not all games would feel right or even fit for such a feature like this. The front-end menu is good for certain games and makes it feel like the front cover of a book (or even like the menu of when playing a disc for you to watch a movie and have a set of different options to choose from), but maybe if developers find new ways with many of the genres that exist, it would then be a great idea. However, I wouldn't like it and neither would others, if the front-end menu idea was completely abandoned, so we need both of the ideas on how to access video and computer games from the start.

Driverman2006
06-21-2007, 07:44 PM
A pause menu is manditory, yes. I know nothing about the Resident Evil series. But we do need a pause menu. Why? Because all of your standard options are there. Like sound adjustments, the full map, stats, etc.

Assaultmachine1
06-21-2007, 07:47 PM
I know that the pause menu would be a good option for the Driver series and it should be that way. In any other case, there may even be a great idea for you to go to a specific place in the game and access things that way (like in the GTA games where you go to contacts for missions, look for the multiplayer icon to play multiplayer in SA, etc.).

InsaneDriver06
06-23-2007, 09:42 AM
A front end menu wouldn't be necessary, but a pause menu would of course. The one in DPL worked well IMO.

Assaultmachine1
06-23-2007, 12:06 PM
Of course the front end menu wouldn't be necessary. This is a open-world driving game franchise, so why would we need it? Driver Parallel Lines was good for giving us a pause menu. Let Reflections stick with the Pause menu and have it look a lot more impressive in the next Driver game because there needs to be as much improvement in every category of the Driver game whether it's the sound, graphics, tilt (controls), value, and even the gameplay. We need to see all of these categories with as much improvement than we could ever see coming from both a next-gen open-world city game and even from a Driver game. And just as I said before, I'd love to see the next Driver game and the whole Driver franchise offer RPG, FPS, driving, and action elements to make it the best possible open-world game that has ever come in existence.

Driverman2006
06-23-2007, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
A front end menu wouldn't be necessary, but a pause menu would of course. The one in DPL worked well IMO.
Exactly.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Assaultmachine1
06-24-2007, 10:03 AM
Do you like the idea of RPG, simulation, FPS, and other elements for the on-foot and driving experience, Driverman2006? I think that it would really shapen up the Driver franchise if we see that happen in the rest of the Driver games that will exist in the future. And yes, the concept of multiple careers should always be stuck with as Reflections could improve it even more with a lot more careers, missions, storylines, and even more clever ways for you to go about the city and search for things based on your career (i.e. killing or arresting criminals as a law enforcer, finding stolen vehicles, killing gangs as a gangster, etc.)

Driverman2006
06-24-2007, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Assaultmachine1:
Do you like the idea of RPG, simulation, FPS, and other elements for the on-foot and driving experience, Driverman2006? I think that it would really shapen up the Driver franchise if we see that happen in the rest of the Driver games that will exist in the future. And yes, the concept of multiple careers should always be stuck with as Reflections could improve it even more with a lot more careers, missions, storylines, and even more clever ways for you to go about the city and search for things based on your career (i.e. killing or arresting criminals as a law enforcer, finding stolen vehicles, killing gangs as a gangster, etc.)
Yes I do. I do like the RPG, simulation, FPS and other elements. And they should all be in the next Driver game. No longer shall it be just the elements from Drivers 1 & 2, those games were good, but that's back to the PS1 era. We're in a new era of gaming, and let's have no restrictions and have freedom to a maximum. It should be as realistic as the real world, but still having the luxuries of a game.

Assaultmachine1
06-24-2007, 11:34 PM
You are correct. This is a new generation, so Reflections must start off fresh with new ideas and a better concept to keep the franchise alive, much like the concept of mine, which is about having multiple careers that each offer storylines and missions. Freedom must be beyond that of any previous game and be made as new and as fine as possible, meaning that many on-foot of GTA SA and GTA IV's features should look better than ever in the next Driver game. As for the driving experience, it too, must offer the greatest freedom imaginable, but at the same time, be that much better than what was seen in the GTA franchise. Also, Driver should be one step closer to a realistic world for its city and everything within it, just as it was with D3.

InsaneDriver06
06-26-2007, 09:25 AM
Yeah, it's time to take games to another level. With Ubisoft's support, hopefully Reflections steps it up with new levels of freedom and driving action.

Assaultmachine1
06-28-2007, 01:27 PM
The driving experience and on-foot experience will be beyond what we've been able to see in the past because of the awesome graphics and other new hardware that will allow Reflections to do a lot of things with this next installment in the Driver franchise. This time, I don't think that we will be dissapointed at all. FD (Film Director) will probably even make its return.

InsaneDriver06
07-03-2007, 04:56 PM
I'd also like to see a career where you can direct your own car chase movie. The bigger the car stunts you capture on film for your final movie, the bigger your profit will be for the sequel.

Assaultmachine1
07-04-2007, 08:45 AM
I have to admit that you're idea of a career on filming your own car chase movie is an awesome one. Nice job with it as it will allow Reflections to give us a more compelling experience and this is also great for bringing in the Film Director.

InsaneDriver06
07-05-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Assaultmachine1:
I have to admit that you're idea of a career on filming your own car chase movie is an awesome one. Nice job with it as it will allow Reflections to give us a more compelling experience and this is also great for bringing in the Film Director.

Yeah, Film Director could be another career, where you could use bikes, cars, trucks, boats and aircraft to make your action film. Then there could be the regular Film Director mode, outside the game, where you as a gamer can direct any free roam or mission sequence, Driver 1 style.

Assaultmachine1
07-05-2007, 10:25 PM
I didn't think of it that way in the first place, but you're idea sounds amazing. Using film director for making yourself a career along with money and having an option of making your own films for no cost and money at all is the perfect way to make use of the Film Director in the next Driver game. Thumbs up for this idea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

InsaneDriver06
07-06-2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks. Having both the option to choose a Film Director career in-game as a character, and also over the entire game in any situations, as a gamer would be great.

Film Director career would be different than Stunt Driver. Stunt Driver, you could do stunts in front of a crowd, and also missions for making an vehicle action movie.

Assaultmachine1
07-06-2007, 10:15 PM
I'd think that Film Director could be used for something else than a movie, which would be much like the World's Scariest Police chases as well as accidents and other real occurences that happen throughout the game. Infact, this could teach you a thing about what to do and not do in real life if the realism factor is high in the city for its vehicles and people.

InsaneDriver06
07-08-2007, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Assaultmachine1:
I'd think that Film Director could be used for something else than a movie, which would be much like the World's Scariest Police chases as well as accidents and other real occurences that happen throughout the game. Infact, this could teach you a thing about what to do and not do in real life if the realism factor is high in the city for its vehicles and people.

Yeah, that would be cool to see. Scariest Police Chases: maybe the highway patrol officer career can also offer a police camera in the car, but the ability to actually direct the chase from any angle would be a nice option as well.

InsaneDriver06
09-21-2007, 09:07 PM
So has anyone really given a good argument why On Foot should stay in the Driver series?

As Assault Machine 1 points out elsewhere, does it really add more to the game beyond just shooting and walking?

I'll admit, I'm a big fan of on foot adventuring in video games. Having a vehicle at your disposal at any time is a really cool feature, for a game designed primarily as an ON FOOT ADVENTURE, like GTA.

But Driver doesn't offer the same experience for on foot. It's always been more of a footnote to the series, something the game really never needed to make it successful, since the Driving is what Reflections did best IMO.

So what form of On Foot could remain that wouldn't distract from the Driving action? I thought it over, and if you've played Project Gotham Racing 3, it lets you explore your garage in a First Person Shooter view, allowing you to examine the vehicles you've raced hard to earn. I think there's value in such a feature, even if it's restricted to your garage and home interior. That simple on foot freedom would be enough for me anyway. I don't want another GTA clone (even though I enjoy DPL).

I want Driver 5 to focus on the freedom of driving in an open world, in cars, trucks, bikes and any form of land transportation.

And what will really separate Driver from GTA is to EXCLUDE car-jacking. It defeats the point of preserving your ride. It takes away the thrill of the chase, knowing you could always bail from your ride for another cheap vehicle, anything you can get your hands on. How many great chases allow you to steal cars at any time? I don't remember GTA offering any great chases compared to games like Need for Speed Hot Pursuit, Driver 1, Midnight Club 3 (racing, not chases), etc. In those games, your ride was your only escape, depending on your skills to keep your ride moving. That tension, that sense of loss of your ride, is what kept the chase exciting.

What are your thoughts?

Driverman2006
09-22-2007, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
So has anyone really given a good argument why On Foot should stay in the Driver series?

I want Driver 5 to focus on the freedom of driving in an open world, in cars, trucks, bikes and any form of land transportation.

What are your thoughts?
I want on foot action back, and having it deeper than it was in Driv3r and D:PL combined. On foot really helps. What if your ride gets totaled, then what? It would feel like Driver 1 all over again where it's like "You Wrecked Your Car" and you can't do anything about it. I want to jack other rides at any time I want dammit. We need the missions back where you need to jack certain vehicles on the move that are moving across the city that you need to bring to a safe house (like the fish truck mission in Driver 76), those are heavy driving-focused missions. And another thing, I want the on foot action because I want to play a "Person" not a "Vehicle".

And about the vehicles, they should be absolutely ANYTHING. Anything that runs on the road, rails, air, and water (not just land). No ifs, ands, or buts about that, SO AGREE WITH ME!.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

And I do want the guns back (for both drivebies and on foot). Although I don't want enemies on the street trying to shoot me and pop the tires out (like in Driv3r).

One thing I want them to remove for good since it REALLY sucks and that's REALLY irrelavent to the Driver series in the stupid "Riding Shotgun" missions. These are missions where you're like on the back of a truck shooting at enemies. Those missions are too hard, they suck, and they don't have anything to do with anything. Another person on your side should shoot for you while you drive, that would make more sense.

Assaultmachine1
09-22-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
So has anyone really given a good argument why On Foot should stay in the Driver series?

As Assault Machine 1 points out elsewhere, does it really add more to the game beyond just shooting and walking?

I'll admit, I'm a big fan of on foot adventuring in video games. Having a vehicle at your disposal at any time is a really cool feature, for a game designed primarily as an ON FOOT ADVENTURE, like GTA.

But Driver doesn't offer the same experience for on foot. It's always been more of a footnote to the series, something the game really never needed to make it successful, since the Driving is what Reflections did best IMO.

So what form of On Foot could remain that wouldn't distract from the Driving action? I thought it over, and if you've played Project Gotham Racing 3, it lets you explore your garage in a First Person Shooter view, allowing you to examine the vehicles you've raced hard to earn. I think there's value in such a feature, even if it's restricted to your garage and home interior. That simple on foot freedom would be enough for me anyway. I don't want another GTA clone (even though I enjoy DPL).

I want Driver 5 to focus on the freedom of driving in an open world, in cars, trucks, bikes and any form of land transportation.

And what will really separate Driver from GTA is to EXCLUDE car-jacking. It defeats the point of preserving your ride. It takes away the thrill of the chase, knowing you could always bail from your ride for another cheap vehicle, anything you can get your hands on. How many great chases allow you to steal cars at any time? I don't remember GTA offering any great chases compared to games like Need for Speed Hot Pursuit, Driver 1, Midnight Club 3 (racing, not chases), etc. In those games, your ride was your only escape, depending on your skills to keep your ride moving. That tension, that sense of loss of your ride, is what kept the chase exciting.

What are your thoughts?
I most certainly agree with you, InsaneDriver06. The idea of having land vehicles would be a nice option and it suits the game well because Driver has currently been involved with land transportation. Project Gotham Racing 3's first-person view in a garage or home interior seems like it'll be enough on-foot for me, ensuring that the driving is truly the most important focus of the game. After all, each time Reflections makes a Driver game, they limit the on-foot more, so it would make sense to limit it as far as to only being able to explore your home and garage(s) as there likely won't be much creativity coming to mind for the on-foot as it will likely be everything that was already done in an open-world game. And yes, excluded hijacking vehicles and instead making you keep the ride that you're using sounds challenging and makes it the effort to play a Driver game in the first place. Driver is too easy with the hijack a vehicle feature, as is the GTA franchise. Instead, there could be instant warping to a garage or the home of yours or even the option of driving there to fix your ride, pick up a different one, or to upgrade it. You should even be able to buy/sell things that you don't need such as vehicle parts and vehicles themselves.

Including many GTA franchise features for the next Driver game would only make it less original and drain the life out of the Driver franchise, making it feel a lot more different and dissapointing as an approach. It's kind of like Splinter Cell: Conviction, which may be heading as a bad direction for the Splinter Cell franchise because of not having Sam Fisher be a Splinter Cell anymore, even after the series is clearly labeled "Splinter Cell." Many SC fans have been dissapointed as a result and I am kind of dissapointed. This may be a big screw up for Ubisoft Montreal if they decide to go with this. Reflections can do a lot by bringing the franchise to its roots and focusing 99% on driving while 1% on the on-foot (the use of an FP view for only the garage and home interiors is this low, in my opinion), which will very likely ensure us that they can get a really good job done with the driving part of the game as they can improve over what racing/driving games have been able to do as well as offer innovation with new features, so it doesn't need to follow the direction that Rockstar North is having the GTA franchise had. I'd be very happy for such a new approach as Reflections would be likely relieved of never having to need to think about Rockstar North's approach and that it will make the Driver games a rip-off. Rockstar North may become impressed with the Driver franchise and Reflections' efforts that they will let go the thought of calling Driver a bad franchise.


Originally posted by Driverman2006:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
So has anyone really given a good argument why On Foot should stay in the Driver series?

I want Driver 5 to focus on the freedom of driving in an open world, in cars, trucks, bikes and any form of land transportation.

What are your thoughts?
I want on foot action back, and having it deeper than it was in Driv3r and D:PL combined. On foot really helps. What if your ride gets totaled, then what? It would feel like Driver 1 all over again where it's like "You Wrecked Your Car" and you can't do anything about it. I want to jack other rides at any time I want dammit. We need the missions back where you need to jack certain vehicles on the move that are moving across the city that you need to bring to a safe house (like the fish truck mission in Driver 76), those are heavy driving-focused missions. And another thing, I want the on foot action because I want to play a "Person" not a "Vehicle".

And about the vehicles, they should be absolutely ANYTHING. Anything that runs on the road, rails, air, and water (not just land). No ifs, ands, or buts about that, SO AGREE WITH ME!.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

And I do want the guns back (for both drivebies and on foot). Although I don't want enemies on the street trying to shoot me and pop the tires out (like in Driv3r).

One thing I want them to remove for good since it REALLY sucks and that's REALLY irrelavent to the Driver series in the stupid "Riding Shotgun" missions. These are missions where you're like on the back of a truck shooting at enemies. Those missions are too hard, they suck, and they don't have anything to do with anything. Another person on your side should shoot for you while you drive, that would make more sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
On-foot is not mandatory, just as both InsaneDriver06 and I have made clear. We've made the on-foot look as limited as it could ever be that it still is around and can be enough to make the Driver franchise look good.

Popping tires is exactly why guns and on-foot overall shouldn't be included as in other open-ended games and instead should allow for a feature similar to that, as said by InsaneDriver06, which was the feature of seeing through a first-person view (something that I know you would want) in a garage and home interior, which is from PGR3. And other vehicles than that of land are pointless as chases wouldn't look very impressive and it would be too much non-linear that the main idea (the story) could turn out terrible. It just needs to offer more than any driving/racing game has been able to do in the past to be a really good non-linear game, but more vehicles than those of land, which Reflections hasn't talked about nor have they used it in the Driver franchise, would likely not make it anyways. On-foot should be as small as possible that Reflections can truly help push the driving and chases (on land) as far as the PS3 and/or the Xbox 360 can go.

Driverman2006
09-23-2007, 01:23 PM
Damn!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif This is a controversal thread. Look, I can't picture Driver without on foot action. It's impossible.

Now look, I can make an offer that no body will refuse about on foot action. OK, I admit that I think the driving is the more addicting part of all Driver games. So, with the missions, many will be focused driving road vehicles, however, in your free time, that's a whole other story, you should have the freedom to drive anything your heart desires, run/walk around, shoot, etc. Look people, this is the 21st century for crying out loud, gaming technology has gone so far in the last decade. So having lots of on foot action in your free time is very important in order for it to get high scores (although it shouldn't be required for you to do so). See, my philosophy is "Why settle for less?" Settling for less is not the way to go through life. You should always keep an open mind.

InsaneDriver06
09-23-2007, 02:28 PM
Another comparison: Taking Gran Turismo and adding on foot. Where can the game take on foot? What would the purpose be, other than to examine your vehicles in your garage? GT is about racing, and Driver is about stunt/chase driving.
GTA is about on foot action with vehicles.

Now if Reflections made Driver 5 entirely in-vehicle, and on foot only in the garage or home, but also, when you finished the game, it would unlock on foot anywhere in the free roam, that could work.

Assaultmachine1
09-23-2007, 06:44 PM
As long as Reflections doesn't focus any more than they have on the on-foot in the past, I will be happy with it, but I do believe that it's possible to have no on-foot action.

The on-foot action will anyways look very similar to that of the GTA franchise and will likely not be any better, no matter how we think of Reflections as it's not a strength of theirs. The strength of Reflections, as I've mentioned before, is that they focus on car chases and making the driving as realistic as possible while being in a city that is open to you. If Reflections is to take the risk of making on-foot and pushing it to new heights, it'll level the amount of driving and on-foot that could ever simply fit into a game. As a result, it's like saying that you want as much as possible for both things, making it a very broad subject, but what you get in the end is not something that is done professionally for the on-foot portion and maybe even not for the driving either. If we get around 10% or more on-foot, it will only make it harder for Reflections to make the driving experience better than any other driving/racing game that has ever come out in the 7th generation and possibly will have us see another Driver game that is a lot of on-foot and driving, ripped off of GTA while having either terrible, okay, or just good reviews, and nothing better. Do you want a game that shines and is able to blow the entire competition away, or do you want something that just is basically the same thing?

Driverman2006, technology does not always make a video game stand above every other game there is. Developers from North America usually would say that it is, but just like my friend says and just as Japanese developers believe, technology isn't everything. Creativity is perhaps the most important thing to make note of as it impacts everything else of how a video game turns out to be in the end. Technology is second rather than first of what a developer needs to get a hold of. Japanese developers, I believe, are very wise that usually, they don't care as much for making the graphics or other technological standards of a video game look higher than the gameplay or other aspects that make up a game, which actually benefits games for the most part as people will have a lot more fun with them and graphics aren't everything. Epic games, Crytek, and id Software as well as Valve, those developers who are the most responsible for pushing the graphics further may help the Video Game Industry and video games themselves, but it is not enough to help make a video game be the best that it can be. The rest of the job is given for the actual developers responsible for their own games as they need to really think about how their games need to turn out in order to be as best as possible and it certainly is not an easy process, regardless of whether or not a developer has made very good games in the past (e.x. Bungie studio, responsible for the Halo games) or if they've made bad games.

InsaneDriver06, about the idea of unlocking on-foot for anywhere in the game, it could work, but it would be exactly like Reflections having it available from the start as they would try to cram in a lot of stuff, mainly what the GTA games have already done and it wouldn't fit very right with the main concept of the game, which is driving and car chases.

In the end, it still may not feel right for you, after having played a Driver game, thinking that it could've been done better, both for the driving and on-foot because of the larger focus on on-foot and something that makes the driving very similar to that of the GTA games, which is what both D3 and DPL did try to do very well.

I'd much rather want Reflections to start from scratch while using the roots of the original game and keeping the on-foot, but only limiting it to the first-person view (FP view) for the home(s), garage(s), and stores in the game. I believe that we would all be satisified if, in the end, Driver turned out to be a much different direction than that of what Rockstar North has been doing for the GTA games. Hijacking vehicles and wrecking them (rather than abandoning your nice customized ride for something else) could be replaced by being able to warp to a garage or store (if not wanting to drive all the way over there) would be enough for me as it is helpful and much quicker than stopping to think, "hmmm.... What vehicle should I pick to steal?" Let us not have to follow the gangster ways in which the GTA franchise has revealed to the rest of the open-world games. Let Driver be more simplistic (for selecting any options within the Pause Menu of what to do), but also more challenging (for the missions, chases, and driving itself) as well as realistic than any other game involving vehicles. And last, but not least, we don't need other vehicles than those which ride on land because I am positive that Reflections wouldn't get as much of a better job done than Rockstar North at doing it. It would be too broad and too much work for them. It's so much easier if Reflections just focuses on land vehicles, keeps the on-foot limited to only a few types of interiors, has big progress made on film director, and if they are able to improve and perfect the driving to such lengths that make it the most realistic and unique experience ever imagined in an open-world driving game. This should be open-world driving, not open-world action or open-world driving/action.

InsaneDriver06
09-24-2007, 06:55 PM
Open World Driving game is definitely what Reflections needs to hit first, if they're going to make a huge impact. As soon as on foot is thrown it, the game becomes two games in one, and yes, a much more diluted experience, which might explain why GTA3, GTAVC and GTASA's vehicles are cartoony at best, and never really improved since the first GTA3. GTA4? I'll have to see...

As far as the unlockable FPS view anywhere, it could be just that: Driver 2 all over again. It would be a neat unlockable, as long as they don't put any serious time into it, and focus everything on the open world driving.

Assaultmachine1
09-25-2007, 01:19 PM
I believe that the Driver franchise should shift its focus on having the on-foot always as limited as the feature in Project Gotham Racing 3 and that the driving and car chases should help out the franchise a lot more than it did in the past. Never does Driver need to go back to the ways of D3, DPL, or even D76, whose on-foot experience is just too much boring, derivative (unoriginal), and even is a rip-off off the GTA franchise and of Rockstar North's ideas.

The open-world genre needs to definitely start having many original and different ideas for original games and franchises because the whole experience will become so boring in years from now, if GTA is the only great open-world franchise that tends to lead everyone else. Driver could be the next big open-world game, if Reflections puts a very limited focus on on-foot (like the PGR3 feature) and to have the driving and car chases as well as limited the vehicle types to land vehicles. Mercenaries 1 & 2 and Assassin's Creeds are other examples of games that may really help drive the open-world genre further. Also, Alan's Wake can do that as well. It's just that game developers will need to lay off the same concept of other game developers and in exchange for creating more original and unique game experiences that make this genre grow even faster.

Stealth and Survival Horror are quite small as genres, but they're starting to grow even larger because so much originality has come forth and due to the fact that there have been and are many different original game titles and franchises that are helping gamers notice these genres very well. Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, Thief, and Tenchu are perhaps the biggest ones responsible for these two genres and have contributed a lot of great ideas and game experiences.

Open-world may be filling up with a lot more titles (many starting pouring in after GTA III and Driver was among the first to start, along with GTA itself), but many of its games are not original enough nor do many of them impact the genre. Getaway, Mafia, True Crime, Crackdown, Saint's Row, and Driver (every title, except the first one) haven't done much to move the genre forward, so only GTA, Mercenaries, and Assassin's Creed are currently the most unique examples of how to make freedom original and fun for players. There are many different sub-genres of the open-world genre (or rather, many different sub-genres for genres like action, driving, racing, etc. with open-world as one of the options). As a result, there are many different possibilities that game developers can add to genres and maybe soon, more genres will include a large amount of the freedom as is seen in certain genres, which I hope will be possible. However, that's not to say that open-world will always be the best experience as linear games have been around longer, so as a result, game developers have been able to push their concepts to huge heights (i.e. Resident Evil 4, Metal Gear Solid 2, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Halo, etc.). It is still to remain to be seen, whether linear games will always be the dominant side or if non-linearity will soon grow so large, it will even benefit the story of the game very much to make it that much more acceptable.

My point is that Reflections should definitely work bringing Driver into a genre that I would label "Open-World Driving," respectively. Action of the on-foot never needs to be around to make the game unique. For now, before Reflections can come to any other conclusions, I want the Driver franchise to go to the roots of Driver and be started off from scratch in certain ways such as the Multiple Career concept and among many others that will very much help benefit the driving and car chases.

InsaneDriver06
09-26-2007, 05:41 PM
Yeah, start from scratch is a good idea. Right now, the largest open world driving game would be TDU, with 1800 square miles of Hawaii's Oahu to explore. It's my favorite game, and a big reason I've been able to let go of the on foot concept, since I can ride a sportbike through forests and deserts without any roads around, which is a big part of exploring the map as fast as slow as I want.

There are times I wish I could hop off the bike and just run through the forest, getting lost out there, just for the fun of getting into the atmosphere of "being there", which only a FPS view can really achieve, next to 3rd person views. But beyond exploration, there's really no need to include a neat, but distracting on foot mode.

Most people and critics would look at that option, and say "Why include on foot if you can't do anything with it? The game suffers because of this pointless feature."

Off topic: Prototype is looking like a great open city game set in NYC, with Crackdown-like super human abilities, including morphing into any character.

Assaultmachine1
09-26-2007, 08:41 PM
Speaking of TDU, it offered a vast amount of players to compete against for an online racing game, probably more than any online-enabled racing game in the past, so Reflections should really consider to work on online multiplayer, which needs to be bigger than its competition. Not to mention the fact that there's a saying that with the consoles each offering an online service, there's no point in leaving out a multiplayer experience, so I'd rather not have Reflections leave the rest of the Driver franchise as a single-player experience. It should be now, that Reflections is to start working on what they can do with the online multiplayer. If you look at the multiple career path concept, the careers like racing would fit really nice for competing against other players. Infact, practically all of the top 10 careers that I've mentioned in the Next-gen Driver list would suit multiplayer. Free-roam gameplay may offer a lot of freedom, but rendering such a game as a single-player experience will not be enough any more as most gamers today are really thrilled to be playing multiplayer online.

InsaneDriver06
09-27-2007, 10:00 AM
Career mode online, in addition to valuable offline gameplay, would be a good decision.

Online games like Halo 3 are what sell big numbers these days. But I always like the option to go offline, like in TDU.

Back to ON FOOT. It's not about driving. That's why successful games like NFS, Gran Turismo, Midnight Club LA and Burnout don't offer it. GTA includes it, because on foot is the core gameplay, not driving. It's about the character in GTA, otherwise, your character would be a car, like in GT. If Driver is to regain it's driving crown (Driver 1), it can't do it if you spend half your time walking around.

Assaultmachine1
09-27-2007, 04:36 PM
Offline and online would certainly suit as options for the multiplayer. I'd probably play more online though because split-screening makes it harder to see, especially in GOW, when I was playing either with or against my friend. As for the online, it allows for downloadable content, demos, tournaments (which can help you win money and other prizes), and so much more, so the online is probably superior to that of multiplayer.

Awesome point about the on-foot, InsaneDriver06. GTA has always been mainly to place you in the shoes of a character and to travel with that character (regardless of how), usually having the most freedom rely on the on-foot, but with racing games and even driving games, it is the opposite way. Racing games rarely ever offer on-foot at all, PGR3, is an exception. Driver 1 is an excellent example of a driving game that didn't offer on-foot, but because of it, the driving was done so remarkably well that I could still be enjoying this game, if I am to feel the need of playing it again. Taking your character out of a vehicle in a racing or driving game is certainly not neccessary at all nor is it necessary much, but for only the times of a first-person view, trying to view the interiors of places that are in the game and have to do with the concept of the game, which is its driving.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Bizarre Creations, the creators of PGR, have been bought from Microsoft Game Studios to Activision. PGR4, however, will still come out for the 360 and is the only game of Bizarre's that will likely ever be owned by Microsoft. The good news is that Bizarre would like to take a new direction with driving, so they made do so, going from closed-circuit tracks (as seen in PGR, GT, and FZ) to tracks that are more open (like dirt ones) and will try to do things that will innovate the racing genre, which I think is a good sign for sure. Also, they have some upcoming titles in the future, one being a racing game (maybe PGR5, which is already being worked on by them or another team) and another The Club (a multiplatform action shooter, coming for the PS3 & 360) as well as possibly another game that's suited around a character rather than a car. If you want a link to the article about this, it's right here. (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3163228) Also, I've recently found another article about Bizarre, which can be found here. (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3163209)

InsaneDriver06
09-28-2007, 02:19 PM
Interesting news. PGR3 offered great arcade driving, but the icing on the cake is allowing the player to visit the garage and examine the vehicles earned, as though you were there, as the driver. Beyond that, on foot would serve little purpose, unless a gamer wanted to be a spectator in the crowd and watch a race from the stands, or hop down onto the track and cause crashes midrace.

I'm glad they kept it to the garages. Something TDU2 needs to take note of, as they offer character clothing and customization of the face, but ZERO in-garage, house, dealership interaction as the character.

Assaultmachine1
09-28-2007, 07:51 PM
Maybe this would be a good time to say that Driver should offer both character customization (from top of the body to the bottom) and even offer the interactions within places like a house, in-garage, and at dealerships. If both elements of these could be take into account, Driver in the 7th generation, is at one step of becoming a huge driving experience. Add other important features from other racing & driving games, which will add a lot of help for Reflections in pushing the driving even further. Also, they'll have to get some new driving elements as well.

InsaneDriver06
09-29-2007, 04:21 PM
Yes, that could work for the best.

--------------------------
To fans of On Foot in Driver 2, 3, PL, 76:
As I said in another post, if you remove ALL DRIVING from Driv3r or DPL, what's left but an average on foot action game? Imagine if Driv3r had no vehicles to drive, and you just walk around and shoot stuff, then compared that to GTA's on foot.

The point, either on foot has to be seriously improved beyond anything we've seen so far in the series, or it should be scrapped altogether for the sake of making one of the best driving games ever.

GTA always has more stuff to do that has nothing to do with driving. Driver shouldn't follow that formula IMO.

Assaultmachine1
09-30-2007, 05:23 PM
Well said, InsaneDriver06. The on-foot should play a very small part in the Driver games, being limited to only the interiors and a FPS view while the driving will go out and become the best that it could ever possibly be, with the help of Ubisoft.

InsaneDriver06
10-02-2007, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Assaultmachine1:
Well said, InsaneDriver06. The on-foot should play a very small part in the Driver games, being limited to only the interiors and a FPS view while the driving will go out and become the best that it could ever possibly be, with the help of Ubisoft.

Agreed. It's a strong point in my opinion, why the Driver series has lost it's steam up to this point.

InsaneDriver06
12-13-2007, 04:16 PM
What's the single most important reason to include On Foot, or exclude it from the next game(beyond "Because the earlier games had it")?

Right now, as much as I like walking around, it feels like a distraction to the main reason I play the Driver series: Driving. It's a nice feature, but what will take it to the next level beyond what we've already played before?

---------------------------------
Remember in Driver 1, when the car flips upside down, you have to start over? No character to crawl out as the car exploded into flames. The chase was over at that moment.

Driver 2 offers on foot, purely for exploration and car jacking, as there weren't any guns. So either you're walking to look around as a person where cars can't go, or you're thinking about getting into a car to get somewhere faster. But the framerate was in SLOW MOTION most of the game.

Driv3r kept on foot with jumping, guns, climbing and swimming. But even with that, things got dull thanks to the nearly ghost town atmosphere. I'm sure if they could fit more cars and people in they would've. And the game only moved 88 mph tops (according to a Reflections PSM interview).

Driver Parallel Lines not only added more people walking, but tons of traffic to increase the excitement(frustration to others), but at the expense of the graphics being "cartoony". And on Foot took a step back, removing jumping, climbing and swimming, when those things would've expanded the usefulness of on foot.

Now with the next gen Driver, what's to become of on foot, and does it really define the series? Should Reflections give players ON FOOT or should they scrap it like a bad habit, for the sake of pure driving action?

Scrap it, upset a lot of fans. Keep it, struggle with gameplay balancing issues of car versus on foot, like in Driv3r.

If On Foot is included, should it be barebones (walking and car jacking Driver 2 style), or fully decked out (tons of abilities, climbing, swimming, leaping, rolling, shooting, sliding, car stunts, etc.)? And can it be as well made as games like Star Wars Battlefront, Halo or Assassin's Creed's On Foot action?

Once you offer a gamer a taste of on foot, then remove it in a sequel, the gamer tends to feel ripped off. Is it too late to go back, and should they if they want to redefine the series?

Driverman2006
12-13-2007, 04:29 PM
Keep the on foot action! In fact, I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they still kept it. I want the most in the next Driver game with NO RESTRICTIONS whatsoever. Restricting me to stay in a vehicle without getting out is bull$#!+. And hey, since they did it before, they can do it again, AND BETTER! Welcome to 2007 (and soon 2008), people. The next generation of gaming is here!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Assault_machine
12-13-2007, 04:42 PM
What a very nice comparison it is that you've made with all of the main Driver games, InsaneDriver06. I must admit that I'm impressed. And by the looks of it, on-foot has only been a distraction to the series rather than something that will enhance the gameplay. Not only this, but Reflections, as from hearing its team members speak in the past, they're not very interested in offering a lot of on-foot. They went to stay true to the heart of the Driver franchise. What a very nice comparison it is that you've made with all of the main Driver games, InsaneDriver06. I must admit that I'm impressed. And by the looks of it, on-foot has only been a distraction to the series rather than something that will enhance the gameplay. Therefore, it is evident that for those who continue to hope for a lot of improvement with the on-foot will only be dissapointed in the end. Yes, it may feel exciting when you see that a game is trying to do something different, as was seen with DPL, but it ended in dissapointment, for the most part.

With no on-foot at all, I think that the frame rate will be the best ever forseen in a Driver game. Also, we can see a variety of many more missions for the storyline (GTA San Andreas had over 100), maybe an idea like my "Multiple Career Path," the return of Film Director, and many other driving ideas that can full our wishes of the best Driver game or maybe even the best driving game ever.

It is just as my sig says: "If you are to only stick to what is there, you'll never be at the top."

InsaneDriver06
12-13-2007, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Driverman2006:
Keep the on foot action! In fact, I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they still kept it. I want the most in the next Driver game with NO RESTRICTIONS whatsoever. Restricting me to stay in a vehicle without getting out is bull$#!+. And hey, since they did it before, they can do it again, AND BETTER! Welcome to 2007 (and soon 2008), people. The next generation of gaming is here!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Driverman2006, let's say they keep On Foot, and offer the ability to climb. Not only fences, but climbing ladders up the sides of buildings to the rooftops. Or maybe leaping to the top like Altair from Assassin's Creed. And for the shooting, they offer FPS style like in Halo, or Star Wars Battlefront. And then they throw a bunch of enemies your way, where climbing and shooting actually made the game exiting.

With such great on foot gameplay finally added, how can they keep the spot light on the famous driving action Driver's known for? Should the missions be 95% driving, 5% on foot (DPL), and the free roam be anything you want?

Driverman2006
12-13-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Driverman2006:
Keep the on foot action! In fact, I wouldn't be disappointed at all if they still kept it. I want the most in the next Driver game with NO RESTRICTIONS whatsoever. Restricting me to stay in a vehicle without getting out is bull$#!+. And hey, since they did it before, they can do it again, AND BETTER! Welcome to 2007 (and soon 2008), people. The next generation of gaming is here!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Driverman2006, let's say they keep On Foot, and offer the ability to climb. Not only fences, but climbing ladders up the sides of buildings to the rooftops. Or maybe leaping to the top like Altair from Assassin's Creed. And for the shooting, they offer FPS style like in Halo, or Star Wars Battlefront. And then they throw a bunch of enemies your way, where climbing and shooting actually made the game exiting.

With such great on foot gameplay finally added, how can they keep the spot light on the famous driving action Driver's known for? Should the missions be 95% driving, 5% on foot (DPL), and the free roam be anything you want? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In your free time, you should be able to do ANYTHING you want, whether it being driving or on foot related stuff. But missions, side missions, careers should mainly be driving-motavated (about 95% driving and 5% on foot). So yes, I do support you on this one, InsaneDriver06!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Nice compromise!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Assault_machine
12-13-2007, 04:52 PM
Please don't mention side missions anymore. I simply find it unnecessary when an even broader driving experience can be established for the future Driver games, which has to do with my Multiple Career Path. Don't you remember the multiple Career Path, Driverman2006?

As for whether on-foot should be included, I just want the PG3 interior feature, or no on-foot at all, which I'd even be happier about. After all, Driver has seen troubles due to the on-foot. If you read my post enough, especially the bold parts, you'd know what is most important for the series.

Driverman2006
12-13-2007, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Assault_machine:
Please don't mention side missions anymore. I simply find it unnecessary when an even broader driving experience can be established for the future Driver games, which has to do with my Multiple Career Path. Don't you remember the multiple Career Path, Driverman2006?
Yes, I do remember. And it sounds cool. To me, a "Side Mission" is just an "Unrequired" mission that could get you more cash or prizes. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted that.


Now, since I gave into to your demand, will you give into mine? And that is by not saying the phrase "No on foot action". Will you agree with the compromise that InsaneDriver06 and I made about on foot action?

InsaneDriver06
12-13-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Driverman2006:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assault_machine:
Please don't mention side missions anymore. I simply find it unnecessary when an even broader driving experience can be established for the future Driver games, which has to do with my Multiple Career Path. Don't you remember the multiple Career Path, Driverman2006?
Yes, I do remember. And it sounds cool. To me, a "Side Mission" is just an "Unrequired" mission that could get you more cash or prizes. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted that.


Now, since I gave into to your demand, will you give into mine? And that is by not saying the phrase "No on foot action". Will you agree with the compromise that InsaneDriver06 and I made about on foot action? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the missions are 95% driving, that will ease the distraction of on foot mostly. I still believe Driver's strength is behind the wheel, so missions should be completed through the strength of your driving skills, not how well you shoot a gun, at least 95% of the time, to keep things on track, as Tanner is a driver first.

Driverman2006
12-13-2007, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Driverman2006:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Assault_machine:
Please don't mention side missions anymore. I simply find it unnecessary when an even broader driving experience can be established for the future Driver games, which has to do with my Multiple Career Path. Don't you remember the multiple Career Path, Driverman2006?
Yes, I do remember. And it sounds cool. To me, a "Side Mission" is just an "Unrequired" mission that could get you more cash or prizes. I'm sorry that you misinterpreted that.


Now, since I gave into to your demand, will you give into mine? And that is by not saying the phrase "No on foot action". Will you agree with the compromise that InsaneDriver06 and I made about on foot action? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the missions are 95% driving, that will ease the distraction of on foot mostly. I still believe Driver's strength is behind the wheel, so missions should be completed through the strength of your driving skills, not how well you shoot a gun, at least 95% of the time, to keep things on track, as Tanner is a driver first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But don't forget about Drivebies (or having a weapon installed on your vehicle). That's driving too. And the drivebies made D:PL a fun game to play (at least that's one reason).

Assault_machine
12-13-2007, 05:12 PM
It really depends on what Reflections is able to do. I don't want to give an opinion and to turn to someone else's opinion for some particular reason. By this, I mean to say that Reflections, if at this point, they are working on very new on-foot ideas, then I'd be fine with it, but if not, and if they're only to use those very same, repetitive ideas that either the Driver games have used or the GTA games and other free-roaming games have used, I can't say that I want on-foot at all. To me, I care a lot more for the direction to be pushed far in terms of the driving and for innovation to lend itself, in the hands of Reflections. I can't really say whether I'd want on-foot or not. Most certainly, I know that if the next Driver game is going to be nothing but a GTA clone, I definitely don't want on-foot in the Driver franchise anymore because it's broken my trust that I've had for Reflections at what I see has already been done with D3 and DPL.

InsaneDriver06
12-13-2007, 05:23 PM
I agree that if on foot is included, it needs to move well beyond what we've already seen. I don't want to feel like I'm playing Tanner in Driv3r again, only with better graphics, or TK from DPL for that matter.

On Foot at this point in the Driver series is a distraction to driving, the real strength of the series:

Just imagine when you played Driv3r, it didn't have a single vehicle or boat to drive. It was purely a game about shooting and running around the large environments exactly as Tanner does in Driv3r. Now on that alone, how good is the on foot really, compared to a game like Star Wars Battlefront, Call of Duty 4 or Halo 3 for lack of better examples?

If On Foot returns, I really want to see more interactions with the vehicles, like hanging onto vehicle roofs, bumpers, front hoods, jumping from car to car, flipping from the roof, kicking through the glass window to take over the ride, plenty more on foot/vehicle related abilities, for a start.

JacksonL2007
12-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Assault_Maxhine what exaclty are you trying to achieve apart from devolution, FREE ROAM IS THE GENRE so deal with it.

Driving is the majority yes but god sake let me do other things to, because doing the same thing over and over and over does BTW gets dull

Assault_machine
12-14-2007, 03:02 PM
And are you saying, JacksonL2007, that the on-foot isn't having you do the same things over and over again? It's very obvious that there aren't over a million different things to do, even with non-linearity, such as the on-foot of the GTA games, because games haven't gone that far enough, so eventually, a game will grow bored. Now, if it has some very original and useful ideas, which the first Driver game had, the replay value is always pretty good.

And why is it that you always think that there is far more to do outside than inside? It's true that you can go into buildings, yards, houses, etc., but with a vehicle, if Reflections works very hard with it, it'll be possible to do the same. Maybe we'll get lucky and Reflections will allow for massive destruction to the city, such that a car or other land vehicle can drive through a building and cause realistic damage to both the property and itself. Think of my point of view as if you're going to a drive-thru theater.

Now, don't mistaken me for saying that I don't want the on-foot there. As I said before, it depends on whether Reflections takes new and original ideas into consideration rather than just stealing ideas from Rockstar North's GTA games.

However, as always, the driving must also be taken to the next level because while the physics, damage, and traffic laws are great, the rest of the driving portion of the game gets very boring soon too. Even with chases, it isn't as much fun anymore because Reflections hasn't done much else different from that of other driving and racing games. Infact, while this is their strength, it shows less talent than other games with vehicles.

Driverman2006
12-14-2007, 03:09 PM
My philosophy for video game series (including Driver) is "If you've done it before, do it again, and better. Don't get rid of it forever." (Copyright Driverman2006) So if they did something in the past that was a plus in the game play (like the kinds of on foot action they've done), they need to do it again, and get it right this time. My philosophy should really convince Ubisoft-Reflections (that's if they're not convinced). I hope it works!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Assault_machine
12-14-2007, 05:41 PM
You must be kidding me when you called Driver's on-foot as good gameplay, when it's very repetitive and is, in all its merits, a copy of the GTA games.

By the way, when it comes to video game franchises, they don't always stick with what they have, and if you want it to be the same, when it has been so very repetitive at the time, have it your way. As for the original Driver, it was the best direction that Reflections has ever gone through because it worked the best, capturing the hearts of gamers and critics. Driver was the right most direction and the only right one. Driver 2, D3, DPL, and those other Driver games were heading in the wrong direction.

If you don't believe me, go ahead and take out a copy of D1, and play through it. Then, based on the console's library (PS1) and its replay value, compare that to the other Driver games (along with their system's library of games) and their replay values. If you did this, I'm very positive that D1 would be at the top. It's still such a fun game for me to play through.

Whether I wait a long time or play it for a while, it's very hard for me to get bored of it. The missions, training, minigames, and take-a-ride mode just keep me busy enough with it.

And my philosophy, as in accordance to my signature, is that games can't always remain the same for too long (even if they've been doing very well). Otherwise, if they keep repeating everything too similarly each time, it will grow very repetitive. This is what has happened to the Driver franchise, when going from D1 to D76.

When I say this, I want the approach to be taken to a whole new level, abandoning anything that is to make it worse. If I was in charge of Reflections, I'd use the Cerny Method for game development, which is simply to take the 20% of the best things that have made it into the game and remove the other 80%, building way more on the 20%. The Spyro the Dragon franchise and Ratchet & Clank franchise have been known to use this and it has really payed off for Insomniac (its developer). This has not always worked for all games and is a risky process, but for game franchises that are growing tiresome (just like this franchise), it would most likely be worth it.

If the on-foot is just going to be another GTA rip-off and if the driving is going to go the same way, remove that and take the new & original ideas, stretching them even further. A game doesn't need to offer so much quantity (GTA games do), but instead, they can focus more on the quality. To me, Driver is about the quality and simply cannot handle quantity enough. Rockstar North, on the other hand, is able to handle the quantity.

My final opinion on what needs to be done with on-foot is that it should only be kept if it'll go far away from GTA. Saint's Row 2 is starting to look more different of an approach in sandbox gameplay and even for crime games. I'd love Driver to do the same thing. Now, if it can't come up with something new and refreshing for its on-foot, I won't be pleased enough. The same goes for the driving elements. If it's just going to be the same stuff and not anything of a much bigger improvement over previous games of the racing and free-roaming genre, I won't be pleased with it. And if Driver is not to please me with this next game, I don't think that I'll trust Reflections anymore.

Here's my warning to you, Reflections. If you don't find the right, refreshing, new, and unique driving and on-foot ideas, I will simply ignore anything that comes in the future of the Driver franchise. Change is very important, if Reflections is to succeed in the free-roam genre.

InsaneDriver06
12-14-2007, 05:45 PM
So on foot would really boil down to exploration, car jacking, vehicle stunts, shooting, and interaction with the buildings, pedestrians, enemies, etc. That's like throwing 2 games into one. I just hope Reflections does something extraordinary with it, make it unique.

In GTA, DPL, Driv3r, Saints Row, True Crime, I usually get bored of the gun fighting(which is usually below par to games like SWBattlefront), and end up hopping back into the vehicle unless in a mall or interior. Unless they make the gunfights awesome like a FPS or better, it'll probably end up the same experience only with better graphics and a few minor changes.

Take On Foot and the Driving to the next level of intensity Reflections.

Assault_machine
12-14-2007, 05:52 PM
Yes, I agree, InsaneDriver06. I only will want on-foot with driving, if they both are taken to a new and fresh direction that will also be a very unique one. Of course, elements like traffic laws, Film Director, and land vehicles should not be removed, as is the same for physics and damage.

There is no problem of seeing on-foot as long as every single bit of it is different from GTA. Whether this is achievable or not, I can't say I want it if I only end up seeing the same GTA gameplay. The same goes for seeing elements of driving similar to that of DPL, which were far too much identical to GTA. Basically, DPL was a complete GTA rip-off, from its graphics, to the gameplay, and to the sound. As much as it was an improvement, it was still too much of a rip-off, making it not enough for many to be interested in and nor is that enough to have it kept being played for many years, unless you're very much in love with the Driver franchise.

As much as I like the franchise, I haven't liked the majority of its games very much. Perhaps the only reason why I'm even around this place is because I've become so used to giving ideas and comments on this franchise, both over at the Atari Forums, and this very forums, the Ubisoft Forums.

There is the true answer to the inclusion of on-foot. If it's very new, bring it in, but if it isn't, let it die and be seen no more.

PennySillin
12-15-2007, 09:58 AM
I'd have to agree that on foot has been lame in all the games of this genre, gunfights suck, which is why I usually stick to the car myself. But that is also boring, even in the latest Driver games.

Thats why I'm pushing so hard for the on foot section, the drivings almost there anyway, on foot is way behind, they haven't tried hard enough on it, its just something they add at the end and don't seem to care for. Gunfights are a part of action movies my friends, something Driver tries to emulate. Now do it right or fail miserably!

And on the whole "new" argument, I agree to an extent with it, but you should not forget the past. Just because its old, doesn't mean it won't work anymore. It worked in the first place because they got it right, additions are always welcome.

Why are old ovens so much better? Cause they are simple, no computer chips that break down and need repair, nothing overly complex. Like MGS3, it was overly complex with all the menu's needed to heal yourself, it got in the way of the gameplay immensely

Driverman2006
12-15-2007, 10:00 AM
You're right, PennySillin!http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif There are many action movies (including those with car chases) that have intense gunfights, and even fistfights too. I want to actually play those parts, and not have some stupid cutscene do it for me.

Assault_machine
12-15-2007, 10:10 AM
It's a good point that you made, PennySillin, but if we are to see any on-foot, particularly in missions, Reflections needs a great storyline and some really new ways to make the missions because by seeing too much of GTA's mission structure, I don't feel so compelled enough to play any Driver game. For all I know, if the next Driver game will hardly change the direction in the on-foot & driving for the better, I don't need to play the game at all. It's as simple as that.

Yes, of course, Reflections can make fistfights and shooting to be in the game, but it'll have to be a large improvement, considering that Reflections will at least be stepping in the direction of quality rather than quantity, which is a lot more difficult and is just Rockstar North's direction for the GTA games.

Driverman2006
12-15-2007, 10:17 AM
One thing that really makes GTA very different from Driver (trust me, you'll like this one!) is that like GTA:SA has the stupid "Boyz in da Hood" style to it, where you play as a gangster who deals with drugs, alcohol, guns, etc. While D:PL has both a 1970s and 2000s style to it without having the stupid "West Coast Hip-hoppy Vibe". So it shouldn't be the on foot action that would piss us off to the point of not wanting it, I think it should be the vibe of the game (they should still continue with the D:PL vibe) that we should be concerned about. Sorry if this goes a little off topic, but I just had a terrific idea come to mind.

Assault_machine
12-15-2007, 10:21 AM
I'm sorry, but DPL was not such a fascinating example of Reflections, so I can't agree with you on this. We need something new and such an idea that can work.

As I've said before, maybe Reflections should follow the Cerny Method, and not the organic process (which just leaves the team continually building on the game, when some of the gameplay may just be terrible). We need great or excellent quality and sometimes to achieve that, a developer must rid itself of any unnecessary features. Believe me, that if Reflections follows this process, they will get less negative feedback and the whole game will be a pretty polished one.

Driverman2006
12-15-2007, 10:38 AM
I wasn't really saying that they should have parallel eras again. They should keep it in the 2000s with both the 70s and present day feel, vehicles, music, weapons, etc (and even stuff from before the 70s and between the 70s and 2000s too). It would have kind of like the "Overdrive" vibe ("Overdrive is the 70s style movie set in the present day in San Francisco in Stuntman: Ignition). I thought that D:PL was Reflection's best. It's a fun free roaming game that's VERY addicting to play. The rest of the Driver series and Stuntman can't seem to turn me on as much as D:PL. Although, I wish that D:PL did have the cool stuff from Driv3r like boats, forklifts, go-karts, swimming, jumping, train riding, and climbing in your free time.

Assault_machine
12-15-2007, 10:42 AM
If you ask me, I'd want more feelings from other time periods too, as opposed to just the 70s and the 21st century. Lets have more vehicles of the past, along with newer ones, be included in the next Driver game. And it'd be interesting to start seeing vehicles that are hybrids, those that run on ethanol, and electric vehicles. Maybe even those of which are being worked on to use fuel cell technology would also make the game more interesting.

The majority of the game should be based on today's world, but certain things, like vehicles, can have some focus of a few decades before.

PennySillin
12-15-2007, 08:28 PM
A great storyline doesn't help the on foot missions any. Thats what the AI does, the environment, special effects. You can have the best story in the world and make a completely **** game.

InsaneDriver06
12-16-2007, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
A great storyline doesn't help the on foot missions any. Thats what the AI does, the environment, special effects. You can have the best story in the world and make a completely **** game.

Storyline can help bring more emotion into the gamer while the story's fresh, but after repeated play, yes, it's the gameplay that matters most.

If Reflections made a great Driving game, then added on foot that was on par with Resident Evil 4 and 5's quality, while keeping the focus on getting back to your ride to start a chase, they'll have succeeded up to that level anyway. Over the shoulder view most of all.

RE 4's on foot and interaction, is really great compared to DPL, Driv3r, D2's limited on foot gameplay. It won't be entirely orginal, but at least it'll be damn good.

PennySillin
12-16-2007, 03:53 PM
Over the shoulder sounds good for missions, I would probably prefer to use that good ol' select button on free roam..

InsaneDriver06
12-17-2007, 06:12 PM
Imagine Tanner on foot in an open field. One of the biggest problems with on foot is having a huge wide open space with nothing to do but walk, run, shoot and jack cars.

If they could find something interesting to do in a dull environment, on foot would take a new step forward.

Some suggestions are CLIMBING structures. Climbing is honestly one of my favorite on foot activities in ANY video game. Half the reward is looking far down. But why would Tanner climb stuff? Maybe there's some hidden car parts on the roof, or vehicles, enemies to chase, etc. News is, GTA4 will allow climbing structures to some degree. Rockstar adds of a lot of fun stuff first. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

PennySillin
12-17-2007, 10:08 PM
Well, we'll see when GTA4 comes out, where it stands compared to the last GTA games, and where Driver stands. Probably won't get a Driver trailer until summer, what a bummer, I'm gonna go walk on some peaches...

driver_madness
12-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
Well, we'll see when GTA4 comes out, where it stands compared to the last GTA games, and where Driver stands. Probably won't get a Driver trailer until summer, what a bummer, I'm gonna go walk on some peaches...

Sorry to burst your bubble. (Something I don't really want to do but I'll do it anyrate)

Reflections only recently hired new employees and had finished the concept stage only months ago.

As I said here = http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2381087925/m/4951074995

PennySillin
12-18-2007, 07:11 AM
Really? Thats actually good I think, I was thinking it may be too late to implement some of our ideas in the game. So I guess we may not be seeing anything then. Oh well, at least GTA4 will be out in spring (I think). Then all I'll need is an X360. I guess I can use my roomates until then, but I'll probably move out in June, go live at the beach if I'm still working down there.

InsaneDriver06
12-18-2007, 02:05 PM
Lets say Reflections makes walls of buildings to drive through. When you get out on foot, every ledge should be climbable, none of these invisible walls that keep you from grabbing on, so if there's a window porch, you can reach it. Otherwise, it's just a wall of nicely detailed buildings.

I'd like to have the ability to leap with arms extended, so if there's a ledge, I could grab it and pull Tanner up as he swings from it. He could run through the building, leap through the back window and onto the hood of a bus passing by as the crooks turn the corner searching for him.