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p51srule
10-03-2008, 09:52 AM
OK IM REALLY ****ED OFF. I hate it how CVs dont have lights, Im playing online with my friends and where playing a custom misson I made and I made it the middle of the night with a cloud cover and we takeoff from the CV, we reach the target and where are heading back and we cant find the Fu**en CV.( relisim mode) so where looking around for a ship or even the wake of the ship so we finally found it after 20 mins of searching and 3 out of the 7 of us ran out of fuel so we ditched and the 3 other guys made it to the CV and only 1 was able to land perfectly. SO I asking if theirs a way for there to be lights on a CV and if any1 has had this problem.

P51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"Speed is life in a dogfight"

p51srule
10-03-2008, 09:52 AM
OK IM REALLY ****ED OFF. I hate it how CVs dont have lights, Im playing online with my friends and where playing a custom misson I made and I made it the middle of the night with a cloud cover and we takeoff from the CV, we reach the target and where are heading back and we cant find the Fu**en CV.( relisim mode) so where looking around for a ship or even the wake of the ship so we finally found it after 20 mins of searching and 3 out of the 7 of us ran out of fuel so we ditched and the 3 other guys made it to the CV and only 1 was able to land perfectly. SO I asking if theirs a way for there to be lights on a CV and if any1 has had this problem.

P51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"Speed is life in a dogfight"

arjisme
10-03-2008, 10:22 AM
Can't help you with the lights as I don't know. But I will say it sounds like you guys had an entirely believable experience. You wanted realism mode and you got it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RedToo
10-03-2008, 10:44 AM
AFAIK carriers didn't turn their lights on at night when on operations - submarines, enemy aircraft etc... Sounds like RL to me.

RedToo.

general_kalle
10-03-2008, 10:50 AM
either have the carrier marked on the map (turn on map waypoints) or memorize the carriers heading and then fly on it till you reach the carrier.

M_Gunz
10-03-2008, 11:46 AM
I know of ONCE in WWII when a CV did turn on lights to help returning planes find it after
a battle. That might have been Midway and it might have been Halsey who ordered it.
It was a big historical exception and well noted, the CV and fleet were put in danger.

Blutarski2004
10-03-2008, 11:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p51srule:
OK IM REALLY ****ED OFF. I hate it how CVs dont have lights, Im playing online with my friends and where playing a custom misson I made and I made it the middle of the night with a cloud cover and we takeoff from the CV, we reach the target and where are heading back and we cant find the Fu**en CV.( relisim mode) so where looking around for a ship or even the wake of the ship so we finally found it after 20 mins of searching and 3 out of the 7 of us ran out of fuel so we ditched and the 3 other guys made it to the CV and only 1 was able to land perfectly. SO I asking if theirs a way for there to be lights on a CV and if any1 has had this problem.

P51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"Speed is life in a dogfight" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... You were operating on REAL Realism mode.

Exactly this sort of thing happened during the Marianas Turkey Shoot IIRC. Due to tactical complications, many US a/c were unable to reach their carrier rendesvous before dark and were unable to locate their carriers. So many a/c were still up in the air that the admiral in command ordered the carriers to illuminate to help guide them in. It was considered a very bold and risky decision on the part of the admiral.

Stingray333
10-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Can you edit the map/mission and add a light near the carrier? I have seen lights in maps/missions before so I think it should be possible, unless the carrier is moving....

Zeus-cat
10-03-2008, 06:30 PM
You could have one carrier moving for takeoffs and have a second carrier (stationary with lights) for landing. The second carrier could be at a specified headng from your target.

Of course, I agree with everyone else that turning lights on just makes a carrier a great target for every enemy sub or plane for miles. It didn't happen very often.

And of course, you didn't get much sympathy because of the profanity.

R_Target
10-03-2008, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I know of ONCE in WWII when a CV did turn on lights to help returning planes find it after
a battle. That might have been Midway and it might have been Halsey who ordered it.
It was a big historical exception and well noted, the CV and fleet were put in danger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be thinking of Marc Mitscher at Philippine Sea. Halsey wasn't at Midway.

M_Gunz
10-03-2008, 08:20 PM
That's why the "might haves", I don't remember details. And while I'm sure of once, that's not
to say only. But it being a big deal is not just a detail at all. If 2 subs got bearings then
the fleet position would be known. Lights that high up would be visible for many, many miles.

To me, it should be a matter of generated missions not running up to night. If you're CAP then
hey you should be able to find the carrier. If it's going to get so dark that you can't then
neither should the enemy, get down before dark!

R_Target
10-03-2008, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
That's why the "might haves", I don't remember details. And while I'm sure of once, that's not
to say only. But it being a big deal is not just a detail at all. If 2 subs got bearings then
the fleet position would be known. Lights that high up would be visible for many, many miles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For sure. Sometimes, even blacked out ships were found by the phosphorescence churned up in their wake.

M_Gunz
10-03-2008, 09:49 PM
Most military ships I know of during wartime ops sprayed oil from the bow just to keep the
glow down. Once my unit went on maneuvers transported by the Paul Revere, a troop carrier
and yes, there was quite a glow at night. We went from Oahu to the Big Island then and
came back by jet, how we usually got around as a fast reaction division. It really was nice
on the ship though it was much slower and those Navy guys sure can cook!

M2morris
10-03-2008, 10:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Once my unit went on maneuvers transported by the Paul Revere, a troop carrier
and yes, there was quite a glow at night. We went from Oahu to the Big Island then and
came back by jet, how we usually got around as a fast reaction division. It really was nice
on the ship though it was much slower and those Navy guys sure can cook! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you mind stretching that story out a few more paragraphs? That anecdote seemed awful short. Troop carriers, islands, jets. Can you go over that again? Sounds intresting.

Stingray333
10-03-2008, 10:50 PM
So were there just not many night carrier-based missions flown in WW2 then? And the odd time they had to they would risk lights to land like the story alluded to above?

Stingray

M_Gunz
10-04-2008, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

Once my unit went on maneuvers transported by the Paul Revere, a troop carrier
and yes, there was quite a glow at night. We went from Oahu to the Big Island then and
came back by jet, how we usually got around as a fast reaction division. It really was nice
on the ship though it was much slower and those Navy guys sure can cook! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you mind stretching that story out a few more paragraphs? That anecdote seemed awful short. Troop carriers, islands, jets. Can you go over that again? Sounds intresting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was in the 25th Inf Div post Vietnam. We did a lot of training as a fast deploy light infantry
division. A couple-three times a year we would deploy to the Big Island (Hawaii) and go up onto
the volcanoes for a month of maneuvers. One time, one way, we got to ride a ship. The rest of
the time it was sitting on pole and fabric "benches" along the sides inside a jet with trucks
and trailers parked and tied down in the middle for the 600 mile trip between islands. It's
not much fun when you end up with a wheel hub about where your knees should be but that's
what lines are for.

Maneuvers area is up a road that if you rent a car on the Big Island, the rental insurance does
not cover Saddle Road that goes up over the saddle between the active and dormant volcano.
It's not "tropical" up there above the rain forest. It's more like the Moon or the Texas
Panhandle region (I've been told by Texans) or what you see on any high alt bleak-a$$ barren
place. At is 6500 ft there in general with very sp**** vegetation, bit of a war zone. 30
days doing heavy work here and there and your blood gets very iron-rich so it's good training
regardless. Best part is 2 days off in the middle and a truck ride down to the beaches and
back.

Sometimes the AF would fly through low and fast. If you hear the jet on one side then you look
about 90 degrees away and you may see it go by. The sound came from a mile or more away and
the jet won't be in that direction by the time you hear it.

One time there was a sunshower and we say a rainbow end about 50 feet away. So a few of us
at a time took turns walking out that way until the others said "hold it". To us the end
was still 50 feet away but to the guys with the cameras we were "there" and we all got pics
of us standing at the end of the rainbow.

I've met and chatted and drank with Australian troops up there, a real great bunch of fun
loving guys they are with always good attitudes.

Lastly, you _can_ fit an entire case of beer in the pockets of jungle fatigues. I might still
have a set I "lost" and paid for later.

M2morris
10-04-2008, 12:55 AM
Thanks M_Gunz, for writing that.
I wish I could buy you a beer.
Maybe sometime you can tell about somemore memories.
A jet, that must have been A C-141.

R_Target
10-04-2008, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stingray333:
So were there just not many night carrier-based missions flown in WW2 then? And the odd time they had to they would risk lights to land like the story alluded to above? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There weren't a lot of evening strike missions with night landings like the one on 6/20/44. F6F and F4U night fighters were used on the fast carriers for dusk/night/dawn CAP; USN night pilots received extra training and were qualified for night carrier landings. Radar equipped Avengers also did some night flying. Strangely enough, F4U-2 night fighters were allowed to operate from carriers while regular Corsairs were not cleared for daytime flight ops.

One or two night fighters were launched on June 20th to try to round up lost pilots and bring them in. The other problem during the "Mission Beyond Darkness" was that the attack was made at max range, with many planes simply running out of fuel before they could get back to their ships or get in a landing pattern if they made it back.

leitmotiv
10-04-2008, 06:14 PM
What Mitscher did on the evening of The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot was to have the ships of the entire carrier task force turn on their searchlights and point them vertically so that the lost airplanes could find the task force in the dark. This was an unprecedented move, and potentially disastrous. The sinking of WASP in 1942 by a Japanese submarine comes to mind. He was fortunate there were no Japanese submarines nearby. The aircraft could find the position of the carriers using their equipment which found their carrier's radio homing "beacon"---the snag with it was that it did not work if the airplane was flying at a low altitude. WWII American carriers did not have lights embedded in their flight decks like modern carriers (the specialist night carriers of 1945---ENTERPRISE, SARATOGA, and INDEPENDENCE might have had deck lights, not sure). The carrier could turn on navigation lights and the Landing Signal Officer had illuminated paddles, but that was it. There was an amazing incident on the first day of the Coral Sea battle. The Japanese had launched an evening strike using the night-trained crews they had. They did not find the Americans. The headed home but were unaware the Americans were near to their task force. They found a carrier, and proceeded to line up for landing---at the last moment they realized they were about to land on the LEXINGTON! Mass chaos. None touched down, much to the regret of the surprised Americans.

M_Gunz
10-04-2008, 07:17 PM
Generated missions should avoid such circumstances. They would become almost regular.

R_Target
10-04-2008, 07:23 PM
TF58 deck crew also mentioned seeing a Japanese plane flying around the carriers on 6/20/44.

Pyrres
10-06-2008, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
There was an amazing incident on the first day of the Coral Sea battle. The Japanese had launched an evening strike using the night-trained crews they had. They did not find the Americans. The headed home but were unaware the Americans were near to their task force. They found a carrier, and proceeded to line up for landing---at the last moment they realized they were about to land on the LEXINGTON! Mass chaos. None touched down, much to the regret of the surprised Americans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have always loved those strange incidents, and all those crazy plans and all. For example that the finnish airforce got their own bombers to fly with russian formations and bomb the bases that way without AA shooting before it was too late.

Anyone have more stories like that?

p51srule
10-06-2008, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
You could have one carrier moving for takeoffs and have a second carrier (stationary with lights) for landing. The second carrier could be at a specified headng from your target.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I try it and it worked...kinda, well I have to put 2 cvs together lenght even with that we had to go around several times I recall having to go around 6 times not because I suck at CV lands its that its dark, ships not moving, I got to try to land at 100mph on the saratoga, no outside veiw but yea I still tweaking the map. As soon as its done Ill put it on missions4today for yall to have fun with.

P51srule http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"Speed is life in a dogfight"

R_Target
10-06-2008, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pyrres:
Anyone have more stories like that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A P-51 captured in China was used by a JAF major to intrude on a B-29 formation. Apparently he exchanged looks with the puzzled B-29 crew before diving away.

Pyrres
10-06-2008, 10:55 AM
Those guys had some great courage in them. I mean to just go and fly straight in to enemy formation, flying with them and then flying away after the bombing or something else.

Crikey2008
10-07-2008, 08:53 PM
Would not seem to matter if a stationary CV turned its lights on in the dark. A submarine would still use its sonar to merge its torpedos against it.

Seems to me that if lights were to be used at all for homing they would have been lights below deck displaying through the portholes and other orifices.

WTE_Galway
10-07-2008, 11:07 PM
If a CV is static you can put lights all over it, masts, island wherever you want really. Write your initials in lights on the deck if you are that way inclined.

Beebop over at M4T advised you can also place the new fire objects on static ships if you want to represent them as damaged and dead in the water. That would make a carrier really visible http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If it is moving I suspect it gets tricky. Maybe program regular AI flights taking off every 10 minutes or so and landing again ?

M_Gunz
10-07-2008, 11:20 PM
i didn't know that sonar was good at 10-20+ miles.

Pigeon_
10-08-2008, 05:45 PM
I seem to remember something about carriers turning on their lights during Operation Hailstone, the raid against the Japanese base on Truk Atoll. If I remeber correctly, most USN losses during the Op occured through pilots not being able to find their carrier. It's been a while since I've read this though...

WTE_Galway
10-08-2008, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pyrres:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
There was an amazing incident on the first day of the Coral Sea battle. The Japanese had launched an evening strike using the night-trained crews they had. They did not find the Americans. The headed home but were unaware the Americans were near to their task force. They found a carrier, and proceeded to line up for landing---at the last moment they realized they were about to land on the LEXINGTON! Mass chaos. None touched down, much to the regret of the surprised Americans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have always loved those strange incidents, and all those crazy plans and all. For example that the finnish airforce got their own bombers to fly with russian formations and bomb the bases that way without AA shooting before it was too late.

Anyone have more stories like that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When doing some research on a potential Czech/Slovak biplane campaign I came across some accounts of Avia B534's in Russia infiltrating the landing pattern of a group of I153's unnoticed and shooting several down.

Thekid321
10-08-2008, 06:09 PM
How do you elevate fire and lights? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Crikey2008
10-08-2008, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Thekid321:
How do you elevate fire and lights? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3D view; F4 and mouse button.

R_Target
10-09-2008, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:
I seem to remember something about carriers turning on their lights during Operation Hailstone, the raid against the Japanese base on Truk Atoll. If I remeber correctly, most USN losses during the Op occured through pilots not being able to find their carrier. It's been a while since I've read this though... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the 20-30 planes lost at Truk were due to AAA and A6M interceptors. As far as Night Ops go, an attack was made by night-trained and radar equipped Avengers of VT-10, and a few Corsair night fighters flew NCAP missions. The bulk of the strikes were made in daylight.