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View Full Version : Rudder pedals vs twisty stick



na85
04-12-2008, 11:46 AM
So on my twisty stick, if I want the nost of my plane to yaw to the left, I twist the stick left.

I'm going to try and build some ghetto-fabulous rudder pedals, but as I have never flown a real plane, I'd like to know:

Which pedal do you step on to yaw the nose to the left?

na85
04-12-2008, 11:46 AM
So on my twisty stick, if I want the nost of my plane to yaw to the left, I twist the stick left.

I'm going to try and build some ghetto-fabulous rudder pedals, but as I have never flown a real plane, I'd like to know:

Which pedal do you step on to yaw the nose to the left?

DmdSeeker
04-12-2008, 11:48 AM
The left.

Hence the phrase "step on the ball". If the slip guage ball is off to the left, showing you need left rudder, you step on the left pedal to correct it.

Bearcat99
04-12-2008, 01:41 PM
Look at the pedals in the cockpit of the sim. Get some pedals... $80 gets you a decent set (http://saitekusa.stores.yahoo.net/recprod.html).

zecek51
04-12-2008, 05:21 PM
I have been using a Microsoft sidewinderFF2 since I bought IL2 FB 5years ago, it is still a great Joystick (and a great pity Microsoft stopped producing them)however, since my first real flying lesson, I have realised that a twist stick cannot compare with pedals and so my next purchase will be CH pedals

K_Freddie
04-13-2008, 04:20 AM
At some stage you have to keep your rudder still, while moving the stick around. It's nearly impossible with a twisty stick, so yeah, go for dah pedals...
http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/Pedals.avi
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
04-13-2008, 04:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
Which pedal do you step on to yaw the nose to the left? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same direction you would twist the stick.

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-13-2008, 11:36 AM
Rudder pedals offer more precise action and allow you to only use rudder when you need it and not inadvertently. Its much easier to keep the ball centered with pedals and this is critical in US planes. I got by with twisty stick just fine for years because I did not know what I was missing. That X52 twist axis breaking on me was a blessing in disguise, because once you get pedals you will wonder how you managed and will never go back. Be advised that it will take several weeks to get comfortable with pedals.

S!

SeaFireLIV
04-13-2008, 02:40 PM
That`s the funny thing with pedals if you`ve not used them before for flying... They seem counter-intuitive. You have to push your left leg to go left and right to go right. that might sound logical, but when you`ve used a Twisty-stick for years you end up doing the opposite for ages until it becomes the norm...

Well, I did anyway....

It`s nice to have pedal rudders because you never use your rudder when you don`t want to. Good for precision aiming when you want no yaw movement.

M_Gunz
04-13-2008, 08:54 PM
I guess it depends on how you look at the stick. I used real pedals before so when I got my
first twisty stick I had to take a view based on what I knew. I turn it left for left pedal
and I turn it right for right pedal. I turn it to the side I want to go, or at least my knuckles
turn that way.
But if I took I different view based on say, controller axes, then I'd have problems.

na85
04-14-2008, 01:07 AM
I think the way the stick is set up is that it represents two vectors: the normal and the direction (nose) vector of your AC.

Makes sense. That's why you pull back on the stick to nose up.

Twisting the stick to the left, to me, is the same notion. I want the nose to point left, so if I were to imagine a little plane glued to the top of my joystick, I just move the little plane to the attitude I want in il2.

Stepping on the left rudder to nose left seems awfully counterintuitive.

M_Gunz
04-14-2008, 01:27 AM
Think of it as pointing with your feet.

PFS_BlackBird
04-14-2008, 06:04 AM
Countersteering on a bike comes close to using rudder pedals.

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-14-2008, 06:27 AM
The awkwardness is only relevant for the first few times you use them (kinda like TrackIR) and once you get used to them a bit, they provide far superior control than a twisty ever could and become second-nature.

The only ones who typically denounce the use of pedals either don't have room for them, don't have money for them or have never tried them.

T_O_A_D
04-14-2008, 06:36 AM
Pedals Hands down!

SeaFireLIV
04-14-2008, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PFS_BlackBird:
Countersteering on a bike comes close to using rudder pedals. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It`s not quite that bad.

IMHO once you get rudder pedals you finally begin to truly understand how aircraft work...

Choctaw111
04-14-2008, 10:03 AM
Pedals are SO much better. After using a twisty stick, they will take a little getting used to, but once you do, there is no going back...ever.

M_Gunz
04-14-2008, 01:47 PM
Trying to hold twist on a stick while moving it around does cut into how closely you can control
stick and rudder. A twisty stick is better than key control but it's a compromise only.

I tried to say above, what's intuitive depends on the view you take. People not locked into one
way for everything can find a way to be natural about it.

The Wrights were bicycle mechanics, IIRC. I wonder how they had the rudder set up?

R_Target
04-14-2008, 04:14 PM
Pedals felt alien to me at first. I set up flights of friendly bombers and practiced gunnery runs to get a feel for it. After a month I was comfortable. After two it was automatic.

One strange thing was that when I switched from CH stick to MSFFB, I started twisting the unmapped rudder axis of the MS stick while using my pedals. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Lurch1962
04-14-2008, 06:08 PM
Because I don't really like the fore-aft scissoring of my legs when using commercial pedals, I built my own way back in '93 (he says in the voice of a crusty ol' '49-er). Instead of the typical fixed-wing setup where the foot rests slide in a horizontal plane, mine are more like a helicopter's rudder bar, with the direction of foot movement in the vertical.

With my heels always firmly planted, the balls of my feet rest in cutouts, and the stops are the base board itself. This arrangement allows extremely precise control, because it's very much easier to feel the smallest positional changes when you have a fixed reference (heels planted) and short distance from the fulcrum (heel-to-ball is much shorter than knee-to-foot.)

To keep the physical throw of the "bar" within a comfortable range, I used a 3:1 gear reduction to get the plus-minus 30 degree potentiometer range down to plus-minus 10 degrees. Centering is accomplished with two opposing springs, and the action is quite crisp, with deadly accurate return-to-center.

The "hub" is a dual ball bearing arbour with 3/4" steel shaft. The foot "bar" is 3/4" plywood with foot cutouts, and the base plate is simply a particle board shelf. It's sturdy enough to withstand my full 220 pounds, and then some.

Oh, it was originally a basic gameport device, but when I got my CH Pro pedals (as part of the full HOTAS kit) a few years ago, I "donated" the CH USB board to my old home-mades.

M_Gunz
04-14-2008, 08:00 PM
X-52 has lockable twist but Bearcat's use the twist extremes for rudder trim...
that's just another reason to get pedals going.

Downside today; my $53 order to AllElectronics that was supposed to be delivered today was
apparently fumbled by my dummy postman! Tracking says it was delivered and at the P.O.
they tell me come in tomorrow.
I put in a bulk order for IR LEDs, 100 for $20 -- they're not so easy to find so I figured
get extras to help out. #&$@-ing Post Office!

Lurch1962
04-14-2008, 09:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I put in a bulk order for IR LEDs, 100 for $20 -- they're not so easy to find so I figured
get extras to help out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean to have at the ready for other guys rigging up their own head trackers or position sensors? If so, that's very kind and thoughtful! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

M_Gunz
04-15-2008, 09:47 AM
They found my box and I got it now.

I now have a few IR LEDs to spare. These are 5mm T 1 3/4 and with 75 ohm resistor should run
a good while on a single AA battery. Longer with more ohms but I dunno how bright, maybe a
turn pot would be smart, adjust down to just bright enough for webcam for battery life.
Webcams are *very* sensitive to IR even with the filter in -- or maybe red LED's put out an
enormous amount of IR. Yeah, adjustable is probably the best way and no I didn't get pots
but I should have a small bag of cheapo's somewhere, maybe.

If nobody's watching will you still look like a geek wearing a battery and LED hat?
They do sell cheap button cells and holders, the site is allelectronics.com.

IR LEDs aren't dime store items and I got em for 20 cents each in quantity. I will need
some kind of reasonable SASE's to slip a few in and send right back if bubble wrap would do
which it might not. I do have packing peanuts and tape, have to work something out so they
don't get crunched and of course my squad gets first dibs -- I should be able to send 40 or
so to other UBI members, same price I paid.

1 will do for IL2, and a spare makes 2.
SOW will need more though but 2 weeks is still months from now........ LOL!

Lurch1962
04-15-2008, 06:06 PM
Gunz,
Red LEDs emit only red-coloured visible light, over a fairly small spectral range centered roughly on 650nm.

If you have a spare CD you've burned, you can make a crude spectrograph. Simply look into the raindow coloured reflection made by a light source. If the light is a fluorescent tube, a streetlight, a sodium vapour security light, white LED, etc, you'll see multiple images of the light, one for each spectral line/band.

For example, a fluorescent fixture using mercury gas will show a prominent yellowish-green, fairly prominent deep blue, somewhat faint orange and fainter red image. A white LED will show broad bands of red, green and blue (kind of like 3 LEDs in one.)

The best way to do this is to hold the CD with burned side facing up, close to your face so that you're looking down at it at about a 45 degree angle. Any light source out in front of you will render fan-shaped "rainbows" on both the far and near side of the CD's surface--the farther one works better here. Just slightly tilt the CD until you clearly see the numerous images (blue highest in your field of vision, and red lowest.)

If you can place two lights side-by-side, you'll then be able to do comparative spectral analysis, on the cheap!

M_Gunz
04-15-2008, 09:41 PM
I wrote store security and anti-theft software back in the 90's and had red LED indicators
to check my switches. My eyes saw red, the CCD security cameras saw white. That's because,
I was told, the IR from the LEDs was flooding the CCD even through the IR filter. CCD's are
insanely sensitive to IR and LEDs do emit some heat though nothing like a filament.

Point a lit red LED at a webcam some time and see what color displays.

If I want to make a spectrum I can use one of my glass prisms or dig up a diffraction grating.
Yeah I've done spectral analysis of burn products in both physics and chemistry classes back
in school during the Nixon and Ford years. EDIT: oh, wait, Ford wasn't president yet then!

M_Gunz
04-15-2008, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
If you can place two lights side-by-side, you'll then be able to do comparative spectral analysis, on the cheap! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And since I can't see below red does that mean there ain't any IR?
Honest, CCD's do get near-IR that my eyes do not catch.