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shc89
09-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I've been playing this sim for a while now, got good in fighting but what slightly gets on my nerves are the little bounces I get when landing. Sometimes I don't get it at all, and the plane glues on the runway but most of the times there are small bounces after touchdown. What seems to me is that for a good landing the proper speed and nose pitch is needed, so it's neither too slow with high pitch, high AOA, nor high speed low pitch landing. Any things I should keep focus on when it comes to this?

shc89
09-13-2009, 10:14 AM
I've been playing this sim for a while now, got good in fighting but what slightly gets on my nerves are the little bounces I get when landing. Sometimes I don't get it at all, and the plane glues on the runway but most of the times there are small bounces after touchdown. What seems to me is that for a good landing the proper speed and nose pitch is needed, so it's neither too slow with high pitch, high AOA, nor high speed low pitch landing. Any things I should keep focus on when it comes to this?

general_kalle
09-13-2009, 10:44 AM
im no expert myself but i always try to bounce a minimum but sometimes its unavoidable without stalling.

the key is to come in with a slow decend and then at the last instance pill back slightly to make the decent rate very very small.
if done properly you can put it down without bouncing.
another thing you can do is to give it a little speed just before touchdown.

just be careful about stalling it, of course it depends on what plane you are flying.

AndyJWest
09-13-2009, 10:47 AM
If you are only getting small bounces, you are probably doing quite well. They always look worse from in-cockpit anyway. Try looking at a replay from outside to see how bad it really is. It mostly comes down to finding the right approach speed for an aircraft, being gentle with the throttle, and practice.

I think that in real life, most pilots would hope to do better than the average IL-2 pilot does, but in some ways they may have an advantage: with stereoscopic distance judgement, and good peripheral vision, they can probably estimate their height off the ground more accurately than IL-2 lets you. Of course, they have problems we don't too, like gusty winds and uneven runways.

I suspect that IL-2 may not represent the way undercarriage shock absorbers work too well. They ought not to bounce the plane back up with almost the same force that is applied down, but they sometimes seem to, at least to me.

Do any of the real-world pilots in the forum have any comments?

GIAP.Shura
09-13-2009, 10:55 AM
You might find this useful:

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD5WkusBMQ0)

Pigeon_
09-13-2009, 10:58 AM
Landings are very hard to master in the game. The same goes for landing warbirds in real life. The best you can achive is a perfect 3-point landing without bouncing up again. This means that you put all 3 wheels on the ground at the same time, just as the aircraft is beginning to stall.

A good approach is the key to a good landing. Your speed should be controlled by the pitch angle of the nose, and your rate of descent should be controlled by the power settings of your engine. Pulling up the nose results in lower speed and adding power results in a smaller rate of descent.

Just as you're about to touch down a 'flare' should be performed: reduce power and pull up the nose a little bit. If performed correctly, this will stop you from bouncing up again. A perfect flare is hard to pull of in a warbird though, because you get a lot of torque from the engine. Sudden changes to your power settings will disturb the stability of your plane and you will roll to the left or right, depending on the direction of the torque. Be prepared for this!

As I said, perfect landings are hard. They are not impossible! Just keep practicing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F0_Dark_P
09-13-2009, 11:13 AM
Bounce all you want, as long as you don't crash you are doing fine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VF-17_Jolly
09-13-2009, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
Bounce all you want, as long as you don't crash you are doing fine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on, Any landing your not carried from is a good landing

Choctaw111
09-13-2009, 11:44 AM
I find that banking very slightly just when touching down helps very much.
Doing this will have only one main wheel touching and then bringing the plane slowly to level and the other main wheel touches.
I believe that this really helps with the bouncing.

RPMcMurphy
09-13-2009, 11:48 AM
What plane are you using? I found the Tempest to be a hard one to learn.
But when I land I come in much faster than the stall speed and I gently and slowly set it down.
Note:
A little down elevator after the mains touch will stop any bouncing right there.

The_Stealth_Owl
09-13-2009, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shc89:
I've been playing this sim for a while now, got good in fighting but what slightly gets on my nerves are the little bounces I get when landing. Sometimes I don't get it at all, and the plane glues on the runway but most of the times there are small bounces after touchdown. What seems to me is that for a good landing the proper speed and nose pitch is needed, so it's neither too slow with high pitch, high AOA, nor high speed low pitch landing. Any things I should keep focus on when it comes to this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


What plane are you flying? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lemky
09-13-2009, 01:03 PM
I find to take the bounce out I just leave the gear up.

general_kalle
09-13-2009, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lemky:
I find to take the bounce out I just leave the gear up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif lool

shc89
09-13-2009, 02:18 PM
Thanks for replies guys. Good vid and great landing Shura. Your landing technique is different from mine. You continue flying parallel,close to the runway for some time and then cut the throttle to touch down, while I as soon as I'm getting over the treshold, cut the throttle and slowly pull my nose up to get from my approach descent into the flare position. If the timing is good the plane will touchdown at the proper speed, if I cut the throttle and started my flare too early I'll add a bit of throttle before touchdown. I'm going to try your technique.

What I also never tried are the three point landings, altough I've seen some real Spitfire footage when the pilot is doing something very close to that, with a real high pitch.

I'm flying La-5FN.

Bremspropeller
09-13-2009, 04:23 PM
Dunno how you define "small bounces", but small bounces are actually quite normal for real landings in warbirds.

The best way to get consistency in your landings is putting up certain procedures and techniques.

That means putting up certain speeds and power-settings for different approach-stages (flap-settings and speeds differ, so do drag-curves).
The key to a good landing is a good approach.

Generally speaking, approach-speeds should not exceed 180-200 kph, with touchdown-speeds of 160-180.
Power should only be cut for touch-down if the approach is "right" - when there's any sign of instability, going around is always a good choice.

The_Stealth_Owl
09-13-2009, 04:26 PM
I don't realy understand though, its easy to land on Full real. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WTE_Galway
09-13-2009, 04:57 PM
a lot of planes in this sim land smoother with a touch (10-20%) of throttle just as they settle

mortoma
09-13-2009, 05:57 PM
There are at least two planes that seem to bounce no matter what you do. I can't think of which ones they are right now though. I can land anything with no bounce except for those two. But they are small bounces.

mortoma
09-13-2009, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Dunno how you define "small bounces", but small bounces are actually quite normal for real landings in warbirds.

The best way to get consistency in your landings is putting up certain procedures and techniques.

That means putting up certain speeds and power-settings for different approach-stages (flap-settings and speeds differ, so do drag-curves).
The key to a good landing is a good approach.

Generally speaking, approach-speeds should not exceed 180-200 kph, with touchdown-speeds of 160-180.
Power should only be cut for touch-down if the approach is "right" - when there's any sign of instability, going around is always a good choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's hard to generalize touch down speeds for all planes. In the case of the Ki-27, touching down that fast would be way too fast! I touch down about 80 to 90Kph in that bird and the Gladiator would be about 100 to 110, same with the I-153. The KI-84 has a really low touch down speed too for such an otherwise fast aircraft! I can touch about 140 in it.

AndyJWest
09-13-2009, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
There are at least two planes that seem to bounce no matter what you do. I can't think of which ones they are right now though. I can land anything with no bounce except for those two. But they are small bounces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of the planes I have any real experience with I can name four 'bouncers': Buffalo/F2F/B-239 variants, F4F/FM-2, P-40 and F4U. With the first three, I think the narrow-track forward-placed undercarriage is probably responsible, and they really do need to be landed almost 3-point to avoid a bad bounce. The F4U is mostly difficult due to torque effects, and again needs to be 3-pointed.

Treetop64
09-13-2009, 06:57 PM
No two landing are ever the same, either in RL or in this sim. It's nearly impossible to achieve a bounce-free landing in a small, light Cessna or Piper, especially on windy days. I'd love to try a taildragger.

BillSwagger
09-13-2009, 07:13 PM
When i bounce its because i came in too high, so you might try getting lower on your approach. Your still gonna bounce a bit depending on the plane, but i found a way to train myself so i stick it 90 percent of the time.
This might sound counter intuitive but practice landing on a flat area anywhere on the map, preferably away from buildings, like a green field or on a straight part of the coastline.

There's no runway distance to worry about, or where you need to touch down, so you can really just focus on setting down the plane as gently as possible. Then of course you also learn to control the plane as it skips and shuffles around on uneven ground as you slow down. For example, using elevators to keep you from nosing over, yet also keeping the tail from dragging too early and bouncing violently.

Its the skipping and bouncing that really gets you akin to how your plane needs to be pointed for a gentle landing, but more importantly you get use to the stick forces needed to ensure a solid landing with out stalling out, or landing so fast your gears come off.
You do this a few billion times, and you start to get a sense of how the plane needs to be traveling when touching down on a runway.
The difference is, you won't skip and hop around, but your stick forces will be very similar.


Bill

Freiwillige
09-13-2009, 07:42 PM
I think the way ground contact is modeled makes it more difficult. The gear struts do not really cushion but compress and rebound as if tightly coiled springs trying to launch you from this earth into orbit.
Ground handling has always been off in this sim.

triad773
09-13-2009, 08:00 PM
I always found it pretty hard to bring down an airplane nice and pretty. I bounce often, sometimes I land so hard I bury the landing struts in the tarmac, always leading to laugh-packed results http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IL-2 lacks the graphics that would give you the idea of height, but then missing the seat of your pants feeling robs one of a lot of SA. Switching to external view at the last moment helps overcome that to some degree.

I always found tricycle undercarriage aircraft a bit easier to put down for some reason, and with less bounce too. That was part of why I gave the P-39 a second look. Now I like it for other reasons than it's landing characteristics as well.

RPMcMurphy
09-13-2009, 08:09 PM
I do carrier corsair stuff so much that once in a while when I go do a land-based mission I have to be careful on landing becasu I'll forget what to do and go in bouncing and ballooning.

But if you guys have'nt tried the Tempest for land-based then you might want to go do it beacuse that plane is a difeerent story.
Pain in the arse.

Ba5tard5word
09-13-2009, 08:13 PM
One of the trickiest planes to land in is the Tempest--when it lands its nose points very high upwards so if you come in flat you will bounce up almost every time. The best way to land it is slowly floating downwards with your nose pointed up a bit--you have to practice a lot to do this. I had a lot of trouble landing the Tempest but once I got it right, it made landing any other plane a LOT easier.


In general with fighters I try to come in at about 200kph in any plane, though it differs a bit for heavier planes or planes that can or can't handle lower speed than 200. Then I just come in and, well, because of practice I know what to do to get my plane down softly. I've found recently that using the rudder is a help for getting the speed down if I'm coming in too fast, also when I hit the runway it helps slow me down a bit if I turn the rudder from side to side slowly.

WTE_Galway
09-13-2009, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
I've found recently that using the rudder is a help for getting the speed down if I'm coming in too fast ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If your coming in too high and too fast the correct real life procedure is to go around of course.

However in a pinch to lose speed and height in a hurry get as dirty as possible (flaps radiator gear etc ) and then side slip to buggery with full crossed controls.

Treetop64
09-13-2009, 11:05 PM
Smooth landings are possible in this sim, but it takes a TON of practice - in the same plane.

In this sim I've gotten landing the Bf109-F series and G2 down to a 3-point science chiefly because I've flown both planes a gazillion times through numerous campaigns over several years. Even so I still have landings that are a bit less smooth than others. However, put me in anything else and I'm likely to come in too fast, bounce and hop a bit, and use up nearly all the runway before she settles down enough to turn and park.

Of crucial importance, when landing a taildragger you want to have your tailwheel locked.

Ba5tard5word
09-13-2009, 11:06 PM
Depending on plane, I seem to have a way with getting perfect landings after being at high speed by using the throttle and making a bunch of turns to bleed off speed as needed. I just did one from 1000m above the airfield at 600kph. just spiral around down, bleed off speed, drop flaps when around 350kph and you're good to go.

general_kalle
09-14-2009, 01:34 AM
when you are talking tricycle gear planes in il2 its easy to land without bouncing. the difficult ones are the tail draggers.

WTE_Galway
09-14-2009, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
when you are talking tricycle gear planes in il2 its easy to land without bouncing. the difficult ones are the tail draggers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its that way with the real thing as well

general_kalle
09-14-2009, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
It's nearly impossible to achieve a bounce-free landing in a small, light Cessna or Piper, especially on windy days. I'd love to try a taildragger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

apparantly not.

Bremspropeller
09-14-2009, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It's hard to generalize touch down speeds for all planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm assuming he's trying to land a specific type.

Tully__
09-14-2009, 05:59 AM
Bounce is almost exclusively caused by trying to land too fast. The sequence of events is slightly different in tricycle gear aircraft to what it is in taildraggers, but speed is nearly always the culprit. Let's look at them one at a time, starting with:

Taildragger
The main gear on a taildragger is forward of the centre of gravity. This means when only the main wheels are touching the ground the aircraft will tip backwards, pushing the tail towards the ground.

As you approach the runway, if you're going too fast when the main wheels touch this is exactly what happens. When the tail drops as a result the angle of attack of the wings increases, increasing lift (and drag). The increase in lift will tend to lift the aircraft off the ground, the increase in drag will cause the aircraft to suddenly slow, the drop in speed will dramatically reduce lift again and the aircraft will plonk dramatically back on the runway. In the video linked by Shura on the previous page you can actually see this happening, though the aircraft touches so gently that the change in angle of attack is very slight and the resulting lift barely brings the wheels off the ground.

If you're approaching touchdown at the correct speed your angle of attack will be very close to critical (stall) angle of attack and your attitude will be very close to a three point touchdown. When you touch at this speed one of two things will happen. Either all three wheels touch at the same time or the increase in angle of attack will push the wings past critical angle and the wing will stall. In the first case there's no change in lift and no tendency for the aircraft to rise back off the runway due to lift. In the latter, the stall dramatically reduces the amount of available lift and the landing sticks.

If your rate of descent was really extreme, the bounce from the landing gear suspension will contribute to a bigger bounce, but it is unlikely to be the primary cause. Nearly all bounce in a taildragger is attributable to the increase lift that occurs when the angle of attack increases and the speed is too far above stall speed.



Tricycle Gear
In tricycle gear aircraft the main gear is behind the centre of gravity. This means that when the aircraft is resting only on the main gear, the nose will tend to drop. To protect the propeller, the nose wheel strut needs to be long enough to keep the propeller from striking even if the nose wheel suspension is fully compressed. With the nosewheel at normal ride height the aircraft wing tends to have a reasonably high angle of attack.

If you approach touchdown too fast in a tricycle aircraft, the nose needs to be fairly low to maintain the descent. This often means that the long nose wheel touches the runway before the main gear. This will cause the nose the rise and the angle of attack to increase, resulting in the same increase in lift (and drag) that we saw in the taildragger situation above. The outcome is also the same, with the lift popping the aircraft back into the air, the drag dramatically slowing it, the aircraft stalls and bangs convincingly back onto the runway.

If you approach the runway at the correct speed in a tricycle aircraft the main wheels will touch well before the nose wheel. The result will be that the nose tends to drop on impact, the angle of attack and lift will reduce and the landing will stick.

As with taildraggers if your rate of descent is really savage the bounce in the landing gear can contribute to a bouncy landing, but is rarely if ever the primary cause.


Avoiding a bounce

There are two ways to land without bouncing. The right way (landing at the correct speed) is described above.
The beginners way is land fast and fly it onto the runway. This involves gently pulling out of your approach descent so that you are flying level just as your landing gear touches the runway so there is no impact to change angle of attack, then slowing down until the aircraft stops flying. This "fudge" of a smooth landing is easier to achieve in a taildragger than in a tricycle gear as you don't need to worry about the nose wheel touching first (which is a very bad thing for reasons other than bouncy landings). This is what the I-153 in Shura's link comes very close to achieving perfectly (though apart from the touch down speed being too fast, this video is very useful).


How fast is too fast?

Judging the correct speed for touchdown isn't very hard. In real life, read it off the placard or in the pilot's notes for the type in question but we rarely have that luxury in the game. Instead, take your intended ride for a fly in Quick Mission Builder with 25% fuel. At about 1000m altitude, put out flaps and landing gear then very gradually reduce throttle while maintaining altitude. Depending on type, the aircraft will generally stall somewhere between 90km/h and 160km/h (55mph - 100mph). Watch the speed and take a note of where it stalls. Your final approach should be commencing about 30% faster than the stall speed for your aircraft and you should aim for about 10 - 15% above stall speed at the flare. If you have your descent angle right, this will generally give you a very nice landing.

RPMcMurphy
09-14-2009, 06:10 AM
Here's an outside view I found of me making a three point landing in a Tempest. I'm glad I was filming it because I don't do that every time.
FF to about 1:20 if you want to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zRtm8gr_2o

Kettenhunde
09-14-2009, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">small bounces are actually quite normal for real landings </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh-uh...No WAY...greaser every time.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Sooocool
09-14-2009, 07:25 AM
I have pretty good luck by frequently glancing at the vertical speed indicator on final and controlling decent with the throttle, last moment smooth flair out to prevent ballooning in the ground affect.
Then, the instant the wheels make contact, I <span class="ev_code_RED">raise the flaps</span>.
Also, if I appear to have a crabbed yaw angle on final due to battle damage or crosswind. I will unlock the tail wheel so I can keep her between the ditches after touchdown.
<span class="ev_code_RED">raise the flaps</span>

canadiantrout
09-14-2009, 07:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pigeon_:

A good approach is the key to a good landing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of good advice in the replies here. However I found personally and I think over all the best piece of advise is what i quoted.

Soon as I learned not to rush it, made sure I was lined up straight with the runway, gear and flaps down early (obviously not 10k out or anything), got the speed down etc landing became 110% easier.

If you're already landing successful (with some bouncing) you already know all the basics (adjusted for specific plane your flying).

Just get those basics all sorted out and comfortable well before you want to make your touch down.

Again I repeat---&gt; "A good approach is the key to a good landing."

Ba5tard5word
09-14-2009, 09:47 AM
I think the topic creator is having trouble avoiding the bounces, but if anyone is having any trouble landing, I definitely recommend using a tricycle landing gear plane to get the hang of landing, like the P-38 or P-39. They're way easier to land and you can put full brakes on them and stop quickly without flipping over like a taildragger would. A tricycle plane is pretty different to land but at least you'd get a more forgiving handle on how the ground and plane react to one another and how to use the brakes.

Viper2005_
09-14-2009, 12:29 PM
Bouncing is a fact of life, especially in taildraggers.

There are three basic varieties of bounce IMO:

Gentle "Flying" bounce
If the aeroplane is still flying, even a gentle touchdown can just float you back into the air a few inches. This isn't a problem; in fact it is an indication that you're getting close to achieving the perfect greaser; you just need to round out a couple of inches higher... In theory, the recovery is to keep flying; in reality a bounce of a couple of inches just sorts itself out. Indeed you may not notice it at all from the cockpit if it is of the same order as the stroke of the suspension. Unlike the "hard" bounce described below, the alpha in this kind of gentle bounce doesn't change much.

Hard "Flying" bounce
If you "arrive" at an alpha less than the stalling alpha in a taidragger, as would be the case for a bad "wheel" landing, the mains will arrest the descent of the front of the aeroplane. But because the tail wheel hasn't touched, inertia will tend to rotate the aircraft to an increased alpha. This results in the aeroplane flying again. The recovery in this case is to resume flying the aeroplane. But then again you shouldn't have stopped flying the aeroplane in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif . If the bounce is high and the arrival late then it may be sensible to go around. <span class="ev_code_red">Power should be treated with respect when flying at high alpha.</span>

"Stalled" bounce
If you stall the aeroplane in from a couple of feet and the landing gear suspension isn't well damped, you can find yourself catapulted back into the air in a ballistic fashion. This is dangerous because inexperienced pilots, having put themselves into this unenviable position, are likely to attempt to resume flying despite the fact that the aeroplane is stalled, with predictable consequences. This was partly responsible for the early reputation of the Corsair, and IIRC amongst the many fixes incorporated was a landing gear modification to improve its damping.


The two nasty varieties of bounce are brought about by a failure to correctly manage the final stages of approach. Generally this is the result of the pilot being overloaded by workload; the solution is to spread the workload out over a longer approach and/or to improve the pilot's ability to handle workload with experience. However, a good approach can still lead to a bad bounce if the pilot fails to judge his roundout correctly.

This can either happen because the pilot incorrectly judges his height, or because he correctly judges the incorrect height. The latter is classically associated with the airline pilot hopping back into a GA aeroplane at the weekend...

Bremspropeller
09-14-2009, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Uh-uh...No WAY...greaser every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are three simple rules for a smooth touch-down.

Unfortunately, nobody knows them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

GIAP.Shura
09-14-2009, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Uh-uh...No WAY...greaser every time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are three simple rules for a smooth touch-down.

Unfortunately, nobody knows them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure all working parts are well lubricated.

WTE_Galway
09-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Best advice I ever got about landing came from my real life instructor.

He said "Your problem is you are trying to land. Forget that and instead visualise the exercise as trying to fly the full length of the runway exactly one inch off the ground with less and less throttle."

horseback
09-14-2009, 04:23 PM
All of these replies are quite useful in a general way, but the original poster says on Page 1 that he's flying an La-5FN. The La-5FN was a notorious bouncer, to the degree that it was famously said "The La-5 that doesn't bounce on landing is actually a Focke-Wulf."

Oleg has faithfully reproduced this signature characteristic of the Lavotchkin fighter series. I've greased a few landings in the several Soviet campaigns that featured the La-5/7 series, but TBH, most of 'em were by accident.

If he wants to build confidence in his landing technique, he needs to find a plane with relatively benign landing characteristics. The La-5FN will bounce on you most of the time, unless you get everything juuuuusssst right (and even then, I suspect you will get a bounce half the time, just because).

He needs suggestions for a training aircraft.

I always found the 109F series to be portrayed as relatively docile, and as long as you remember to crank the landing gear all the way down, the I-16 makes you intimately aware of all the little adjustments you need to make as you approach the landing strip.

cheers

horseback

Stiletto-
09-14-2009, 04:35 PM
Tri-cycle landing gear FTW...

Or floats. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pigeon_
09-14-2009, 04:38 PM
I can recommend the Hurricane as a practice plane for landings. In my experience it's very stable at low speeds with flaps deployed.

WTE_Galway
09-14-2009, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
"The La-5 that doesn't bounce on landing is actually a Focke-Wulf."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL probably true

Actually the fw190a series with no flaps and throttle tends to "splat" rather than bounce. I have got into the habit of landing 190's at 10% throttle if I have full flaps. I recall reading somewhere a while back that deadstick landings in a fw190 were regarded as suicidal and lw pilots were advised to bail rather than deadstick.

Bremspropeller
09-14-2009, 05:22 PM
Yeah, but that's a myth.
Lot's of eastern front jabo-pilots were said to actually have made better deadstick-landings ("on the bombracks") than normal landings.

AndyJWest
09-14-2009, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Tri-cycle landing gear FTW...

Or floats. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, but I've seen people complain that floatplanes (including the mods http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif) can be difficult to land. I think this is entirely due to either trying to land too fast, misjudging the flare altitude, or not flaring at all: you have to imagine you are landing on a hard surface, because at the speeds you land, it is.

BTW has anyone ever noticed that the (flyable mod) Ju-52 floatplane can be persuaded to takeoff from land, if you start from the top of a hill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif See my (badly video'd) demonstration here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0dW8nTLbqQ). Yes I know in real life it would probably rip the floats to pieces...

Viper2005_
09-14-2009, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Yeah, but that's a myth.
Lot's of eastern front jabo-pilots were said to actually have made better deadstick-landings ("on the bombracks") than normal landings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statistics of small samples.

There are two main factors likely to be at play here.

Firstly, you're far more likely to remember exciting landings.

Secondly, if the guys who didn't grease their deadstick landings were killed then you're only going to encounter reports of greased deadstick landings.

I vividly remember one time I really greased a landing. It was my first flight in a Grob Astir. I landed on the runway so smoothly that the only proof of landing was the airspeed unwinding. I never did it again of course. I'll probably always remember this particular landing because the next guy to fly it (who had plenty of time on type) landed on the grass and collapsed the gear! It turned out that there was a fatigue crack. I considered myself very lucky because everybody saw me grease it, so I didn't catch any blame!

RPMcMurphy
09-14-2009, 06:34 PM
I have found too that I am better at deadstick landings than with-power landings.
This video does'nt really count though because it's just too crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/user/so...loads/22/i2ZdUCU5Te8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/sokaykid#play/uploads/22/i2ZdUCU5Te8)

doraemil
09-15-2009, 03:55 AM
my smoothest (with the baby bounces) come from

a good approach (several km from the airfield, at least and angel or two high).

And switching to using throttle to control height and elevator for speed. using zoomed out cockpit view (I mainly crash wonder woman landings b/c there is no cockpit reference)

flaps (IL2 has you can land w/out flaps but flaps make it easier)

and setting trim . . .

I also lower gear when I'm about 800 meters out from the air field.

Bremspropeller
09-15-2009, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was my first flight in a Grob Astir. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Sure, you're right about your statistics - that's especially true for ANY pilot-account.

But then again, one shouldn't forget, pilots mostly had initial problems with planes that had high approach-speeds and thus high sinkrates during DS-landings.

It's easier to misjudge the point to initate the flare in a fast plane:
Flare too early and you're gonna drop out of the sky like a piano.
Flare too late and you're gonna dig in.

shc89
09-15-2009, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If he wants to build confidence in his landing technique, he needs to find a plane with relatively benign landing characteristics. The La-5FN will bounce on you most of the time, unless you get everything juuuuusssst right (and even then, I suspect you will get a bounce half the time, just because).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I am pretty confident, I'm not that new as it might seem from the question. Actually, I very very rarely crash land, but I also rarely land completely smooth without any bounce, atleast not with Lavochkin,
so I just wanted to improve my technique, you can always land better.

I practiced a bit with La-5FN and I see a big improvement when it comes to not bouncing. What works for me is a relatively low descent angle, keeping approach speed somewhere around 190-200 and never let it vary much atleast not in final portion of approach since it's much easier to control your descent when you're flying on the same speed. And just when I get close to touchdown I starts slowly raising my nose and slowly decreasing throttle. When the plane is parallel to the ground I totally cut my throttle and as I'm slowing down I'm raising my nose more and more. So when I touch down I'm somewhere around 150 and the nose is pretty pitched. It produces a very smooth landing with no or only a bit of bounce. Not a three point landing but almost.

Ba5tard5word
09-15-2009, 09:47 AM
I've never had trouble with a La-5 or 7, is the FN that much harder to land than them?


And floatplanes are definitely tricky to land because they're different, you really have to float down at perfect speed and point up a tiny bit, and I still mess it up often.

shc89
09-15-2009, 11:42 AM
I haven't noticed any difference compared to La-5 or La-7.