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View Full Version : Please add a +25lb Clipped Wing Spitfire



justflyin
07-19-2006, 03:37 PM

MrMojok
07-19-2006, 03:43 PM
I vote that in the next addon, all planes that are not spitfires are eliminated completely.

We've had enough of this non-spitfire nonsense.

MEGILE
07-19-2006, 03:45 PM
On Cue, Brain69, Chipsquirter, Isigrim, carguy and "insert JG69_ACE here"

DuxCorvan
07-19-2006, 03:48 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif

justflyin
07-19-2006, 03:53 PM
Wake-up Dux!!! And don't forget to vote!!!

We need to get this baby into V4.07!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2006, 03:54 PM
Personnally, I'd prefer a Spit Mk XIV with a Griffon and contra-rotating props. Gotta love that RealAir Spit...

LStarosta
07-19-2006, 03:57 PM
Yeah, Icefire, I think the RealAir Spits' FMs are more challenging to fly than Oleg's.

MEGILE
07-19-2006, 04:00 PM
That aint Icefire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-19-2006, 04:02 PM
lot of spitfire experts in the community dont like the CWs.
they are saying that they are slower than the normal wings and that the rollrate isnt far imporved , if at all ....................

VW-IceFire
07-19-2006, 04:07 PM
Someone said my name?

I haven't flown the Real Air Spits...but the Spit XIV *should* be more difficult to fly. Add about 600 horsepower to the Spitfire and you have considerably more torque plus torque and you start to understand why they had to redesign the rudder area, lengthen the fuselage, and why so many pilots had accidents in the type. The XIV is a beast....its one that I'd love to fly because its a beautiful plane....but my guess is that everyone would still be flying the +25 IX. The yank and bank crowd would find the XIV considerably more difficult to fly in that manner and the additional speed isn't enough at 500m to justify the reduced handling.

I think maybe thats what you think I was talking about? Its all conjecture based on what pilots said about the real plane. It handled completely differently than the IX and the VIII which most Spitfire pilots agree to being the nicest handling Spitfires and one of the best fighters of its time. The XIV on the other hand was an incredible hotrod with a time to altitude that few other prop fighters could even compete with (nevermind match) and an extremely high speed at altitude. They weren't nearly as concerned about yanking the plane around in tight turns with the flaps down with this model...if it were to ever be included and if it behaves like I think it should then it'd be about as well seen as the Tempest is now. That is to say that you'd see some people trying it on reputation and name alone but that most would quickly put it down.

I on the other hand would have a blast. It'd be a challenge to do well in one sense because the plane requires incredible management (Tempest and Corsair I find to be similar in this regard) to get the most out of it and because the handling would be more difficult. Consider that the XIV would more often be in that above 400kph speed bracket where the ailerons feel like cement in the IX...they never improved them.

Its an exotic hotrod...I love that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

waffen-79
07-19-2006, 04:09 PM
I voted "Spitfires are for nanceh boys" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

j/k

FritzGryphon
07-19-2006, 04:15 PM
25lbs is way too heavy. We all know the Spitfire only weighed 19lbs, giving it it's great manueverability.

danjama
07-19-2006, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Someone said my name?

I haven't flown the Real Air Spits...but the Spit XIV *should* be more difficult to fly. Add about 600 horsepower to the Spitfire and you have considerably more torque plus torque and you start to understand why they had to redesign the rudder area, lengthen the fuselage, and why so many pilots had accidents in the type. The XIV is a beast....its one that I'd love to fly because its a beautiful plane....but my guess is that everyone would still be flying the +25 IX. The yank and bank crowd would find the XIV considerably more difficult to fly in that manner and the additional speed isn't enough at 500m to justify the reduced handling.

I think maybe thats what you think I was talking about? Its all conjecture based on what pilots said about the real plane. It handled completely differently than the IX and the VIII which most Spitfire pilots agree to being the nicest handling Spitfires and one of the best fighters of its time. The XIV on the other hand was an incredible hotrod with a time to altitude that few other prop fighters could even compete with (nevermind match) and an extremely high speed at altitude. They weren't nearly as concerned about yanking the plane around in tight turns with the flaps down with this model...if it were to ever be included and if it behaves like I think it should then it'd be about as well seen as the Tempest is now. That is to say that you'd see some people trying it on reputation and name alone but that most would quickly put it down.

I on the other hand would have a blast. It'd be a challenge to do well in one sense because the plane requires incredible management (Tempest and Corsair I find to be similar in this regard) to get the most out of it and because the handling would be more difficult. Consider that the XIV would more often be in that above 400kph speed bracket where the ailerons feel like cement in the IX...they never improved them.

Its an exotic hotrod...I love that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SlickStick
07-19-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
lot of spitfire experts in the community dont like the CWs.
they are saying that they are slower than the normal wings and that the rollrate isnt far imporved , if at all ....................

I do agree, the roll rate is not as improved as it should be, but then again, I think all roll rates are still porked in this sim. They peak too early.

The +25lb does feel heavier and given the choice, I'll take the Mk. VIII, but I still prefer the CW over the regular wing though. When the dogfight gets slow, the increased roll, however small, still helps. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I voted Yes, with corrected roll rates. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fox_3
07-19-2006, 05:50 PM
I'd rather have a late war Spit with a bubble canopy.

Daiichidoku
07-19-2006, 05:58 PM
how about adding aileron reversal to existing spits instead?

Daiichidoku
07-19-2006, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:

I do agree, the roll rate is not as improved as it should be, but then again, I think all roll rates are still porked in this sim. They peak too early.

The +25lb does feel heavier and given the choice, I'll take the Mk. VIII, but I still prefer the CW over the regular wing though. When the dogfight gets slow, the increased roll, however small, still helps. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I voted Yes, with corrected roll rates. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


SlickStick, its bad form to post in a thread that one already starts under alias http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-19-2006, 06:00 PM
YES YES!...gimme gimme...i would lurv a CW+25Lbs, let me just measure the chances of getting one on my CHANCE-0-METER...nope...no reading at all captain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

WarWolfe_1
07-19-2006, 06:01 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Another Spit?

How bout the F8F http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Xiolablu3
07-19-2006, 06:01 PM
I prefer the full winged SPits, becasue I find that turning circle is such a big advatantage in a plane which doesnt have a great top speed. As a US fighter pilot said on a prog I was watching recntly. Turning circle is one of the most important manouvres in aircombat, becasue it allows the easiest way of getting into a firing position. Of course fast speed is preferable to a tight turning circle to a veteran pilot, but if you havent got very fast speed, then turn is very very useful.

If you cannot outrun them, then you need to be able to out manouvre them, and I rate turning circle higher than roll rate in a Spitfire.

In a very fast plane like the FW190A in 1941/42, then sure roll rate is a great advantage. Flicking over into a dive in a split second is a great asset, but in a slower plane, I dont find fast roll rate that useful except for scissors.

I always take the full winged Spitfire over clipped wing if possible.

Brain32
07-19-2006, 06:01 PM
justflyin are you trying to increase my post count? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Personally I stopped caring what kind of UFO get's in the game so I say whatever, you can request a +5000lbs boost Spitfire as far as I'm concerened I'm sure Oleg will modell it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif nanosecond 360 turn time yeaaah http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif
How about a separate Spitfire add-on with various improvements in turn rate, climb rate E-retention, more Hispanos, guided Hispano shells, stall removed completely, greater invisibility, indistructability button binded to the engine start key, etc..
But he has to be carefull not to make the installation too complicated http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
To the ones of you that think CW does not roll good - you have a rudder, you know that strange, funny looking movable piece on your tail. But ofcourse just ask Oleg to modell CW outrolling FW190 maybe we get one quick patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Spitfire won all t3h wars yeaaaah http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

skycaptain_1
07-19-2006, 06:08 PM
S!

Lets have the spit25lb CW and the MkXIV I'd prefer the latter though...we need something to chase down those bf109Z's

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

96th_Nightshifter
07-19-2006, 06:15 PM
We definately don't need another Spitfire but I would definately like the MKXIV.

WarWolfe_1
07-19-2006, 06:20 PM
B-26 and A-26 would be my choice over another Spit, 109, 190,or fantasy plane. H3ll I'd even take the Re2001, or (OMG WTF?) the Curtiss Jenny.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2006, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
That aint Icefire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Yeah, I think the Tempest in my sig can get people confused... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Viper2005_
07-19-2006, 07:11 PM
Logically, clipped wings would have made sense, since the extra boost simply improves low altitude performance.

However, a clipped +25 Spitfire would be effectively unbeatable 1v1, and this would probably be bad for online gameplay.

IL2-chuter
07-19-2006, 07:49 PM
As far as contra-prop Spits are concerned I don't believe any were used operationally during WW2 . . . they couldn't get them to work reliably (in time).

As far as MkXIV vs. MkIX handling is concerned, I was under the impression that the AFDU tests showed marked improvement in turning as well as climbs and speed. As a matter of fact the wingtips were left off of operational MkXIVs because of wing skin wrinkling induced by the longer span configuration. The much higher available power allowed a higher sustained induced drag resulting in tighter turns.

Clipped wings in general returned something like an additional 30 dgrees per second sustained roll over conventional tips. I agree this wouldn't be a big factor in the game . . . we only have sustained roll rates, no initial roll rates.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

SlickStick
07-19-2006, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
Clipped wings in general returned something like an additional 30 dgrees per second sustained roll over conventional tips. I agree this wouldn't be a big factor in the game . . . we only have sustained roll rates, no initial roll rates.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

That's what I'm on about. This NACA chart shows a 45?/Sec increase in roll. And peaks at 200MPH. TAGERT did a nice review of roll rates back in V4.02m. I thought things got a small boost in one of the subsequent patches, but nowhere near the chart.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9144/naca868xr3.jpg

I want THAT roll rate with the +25lb, please. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

CUJO_1970
07-19-2006, 08:19 PM
Bring it.

I never get tired of shooting Spitfires down.

SlickStick
07-19-2006, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I prefer the full winged SPits, becasue I find that turning circle is such a big advatantage in a plane which doesnt have a great top speed.

I always take the full winged Spitfire over clipped wing if possible.

I don't feel the difference in turning circle or speed are really that much different in-game. I usually don't have a problem out turning a full wing Spit IX in a VIII CW.

Besides, I just have this fascination with the CW Spitfires. I yearn for the true roll rate benefit that it provided against the FWs in RL. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Originally posted by CUJO_1970:
Bring it.

I never get tired of shooting Spitfires down.

That's the spirit! You voted YES! then?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2006, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
As far as contra-prop Spits are concerned I don't believe any were used operationally during WW2 . . .

Thats the case with many airplanes already available in game...**cough**Bf109Z**cough**

HellToupee
07-19-2006, 09:34 PM
i dont like the cws for some reason they are all slower than the full wings, sometimes greatly so

BBB_Hyperion
07-19-2006, 11:41 PM
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. Never heard a spitfire vpilot complaining about the vc model that the pilot is sitting so high ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LStarosta
07-19-2006, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by 96th_Nightshifter:
We definately don't need another Spitfire but I would definately like the MKXIV.

Dan, I always admired your multiperspectivism, whether in art or post.

MrMojok
07-20-2006, 12:13 AM
It is always amusing to see Red suggest ways to make their TIE fighter even more formidable, carry on lads.

HotelBushranger
07-20-2006, 12:22 AM
"Spitfires are for nancy boys"

You reds are never satisfied are you? Maybe Oleg should just make a game called Supermarine Spitfire? Filled completely with Renigald Mitchells war-winning aeroplane. Sh1te, you'd have your fingers so far up your arse you wouldn't realise there isn't anyone to fight. But then again, you wouldn't mind because you'd just spam up the DF servers with Spits on both sides http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Prop_Strike
07-20-2006, 12:25 AM
What we really need is for Oleg to give the Luftflyers some kind of incredible uberplane so they stop whinging about the bloody spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

LStarosta
07-20-2006, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
"Spitfires are for nancy boys"

You reds are never satisfied are you? Maybe Oleg should just make a game called Supermarine Spitfire? Filled completely with Renigald Mitchells war-winning aeroplane. Sh1te, you'd have your fingers so far up your arse you wouldn't realise there isn't anyone to fight. But then again, you wouldn't mind because you'd just spam up the DF servers with Spits on both sides http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

See that roundel on your sig?

It had the honor of being on one of these "nancy boy" planes.

HotelBushranger
07-20-2006, 12:44 AM
Honour is spelt with a U http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It also had the honour of being on a LOT of other aircraft, so those aircraft and the pilots who flew them are being done a great injustice with all this Spitfire fanboy-ism. Spitfires have had their fair share of godly worship in the past 60 years.

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 02:09 AM
No more IX's!! Gimme a XIV or Mk22.

JG53Frankyboy
07-20-2006, 02:38 AM
than work fast on your 3DMAX ....................

lot of people dont got the point here !
a Spitifre LF.MK.IXc CW 25lb boost IS possible because it would need absolutly no work in 3D design ! just some FM tweaks.
anyway, i doubt it will happen.

ploughman
07-20-2006, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Honour is spelt with a U http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It also had the honour of being on a LOT of other aircraft, so those aircraft and the pilots who flew them are being done a great injustice with all this Spitfire fanboy-ism. Spitfires have had their fair share of godly worship in the past 60 years.

Bushie, the thread title has the word "Sptifire" in it. You don't actually have to come in here and be rude, un-civil and troll-like stating that wanting another variant of the Spit in someway denigrates the memory of your nation's fore-fathers. No, all you have to do is keep going.

You've a chip on your shoulder that you need to take a chisel to mate. Why not start now?

***Edit*** deleted a doublesque post.

stathem
07-20-2006, 03:16 AM
A Clipped wing IXe marked '45 is the variant that should have received the +25lb boost in the first instance.

I have a transcript of Galland's little known third statement on Spitfires; you've all heard about the 1940 "give me Spitfires for my Wing" and "the best thing about the MkXIV was there was so few of them"?

Well the third one goes:-

"the Mk IX boosted to +25lb? It was a beast. It was so good we told the RAF we absolutey refused to fly against them! We'd only come up and fight once they were removed from all RAF squadrons, and the British, not wishing to be be bad sports, immeadiately did so. Good chaps they were."

IIJG69_Kartofe
07-20-2006, 03:21 AM
and "insert JG69_ACE here"

Heeeeyyyy !!

Not so fast M8!

I don't have voted yet ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-20-2006, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
A Clipped wing IXe marked '45 is the variant that should have received the +25lb boost in the first instance.

.............."

well, it was a surprise that the 25lb boost spitifre got the c armament after all that

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8111082204

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
than work fast on your 3DMAX ....................

lot of people dont got the point here !
a Spitifre LF.MK.IXc CW 25lb boost IS possible because it would need absolutly no work in 3D design ! just some FM tweaks.
anyway, i doubt it will happen.

The XIV is already built. Just never had an FM programmed for it is my guess.

Personally, I'd much prefer a 25lbs VIII. The best looking Merlin Spitfire by far. I don't think 25lbs was used operationally but the engine could take it.

JG53Frankyboy
07-20-2006, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
than work fast on your 3DMAX ....................

lot of people dont got the point here !
a Spitifre LF.MK.IXc CW 25lb boost IS possible because it would need absolutly no work in 3D design ! just some FM tweaks.
anyway, i doubt it will happen.

The XIV is already built. Just never had an FM programmed for it is my guess.

Personally, I'd much prefer a 25lbs VIII. The best looking Merlin Spitfire by far. I don't think 25lbs was used operationally but the engine could take it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know that picture of a LOD0 Spitfire XIV (it was marvelous !).
but that does by for not mean that all the other LODs and the damage models were also done http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 04:47 AM
Shame, maybe the could drop one of the luft46 or manchuria planes for it.

After all, it was used in both the Pacific and the ETO so apt for either addon.

JG53Frankyboy
07-20-2006, 04:51 AM
hey, dont worry - you can call me a Mk XIV shipper too....... but to be serious, it will most propably never appear in this game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

anyway, my most wanted "boosted" planes from already in game types are:
-Tempest , as far as i understand the Tempest experts here the ingame one is a very early one
-Mosquito FB , same as Tempest; and sure Rockets would be fantastic !
-P-51D or Mustang Mk.IV (if MAddax want avaid the american name),for late europe and japan missions
-Fw190A-4 , without outer wingcanons (and without ETC http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and not derated engine, only -R1 armaments !

HotelBushranger
07-20-2006, 05:03 AM
Wow, Ploughman, 2 posts? Man you must be passionate.

Anyway, there IS no point in being un-civil about it. It's just a game, remember? So I won't post in here again.

Regards to Starosta and Ploughman.

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:

-Tempest , as far as i understand the Tempest experts here the ingame one is a very early one


Its not early, its just an odd choice. Its the worst peforming Tempest that could have been selected and not representative of even a 1944 series I V1 hunter.

In theory there should be 3 versions:
The current Tempest V SabreIIA@9lbs grade May 1944 (one of the two Series II spec V's on the batch one production run) prior to V1 offensive with ADGB.
A Sabre IIA@11lbs V1 offensive until Winter 1944/45 (Batch 1 upgrade and batch 2 standard)
A Sabre IIB@11lbs Batch 3 and batch 1 and 2 upgrade, otherwise known as your typical 2nd TAF Tempest operating in North Western Germany 1945.)

A batch 4 Tempest V would need a model change on the prop.

JG53Frankyboy
07-20-2006, 05:22 AM
im always a fan of replacing odd versions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , instead of adding new version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

my choice would have been to give the Spitfire Mk.IXe the 25lb boost, instead of add a new one. more difference between the MK IX ingame familie

also give the P-51D-20NA the 150oct performance, better difference to the P-51-5NT http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

also i found it worthless to ad the Mustang Mk.III , with the RAF default skin the P-51C with this perfromance were enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and hell, no new Mosquito version needed, just put it to a Merlin25 performance !
so the Tempest , just give it a 11lb performance ..............

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


well, hopefully in the SoW series the planeset choice will be more logical http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ploughman
07-20-2006, 05:30 AM
I may be a little confused about exactly what happened but from what I remember from a AKA_Tagert thread in which he analysed some of Kurfy's flight testing data (.ntrk) it turned out the K4 from before the patch with the K4 1.98 ata actually had 1.98 ata and the K4 in the patch was a K4 1.98 ata with C3 fuel. Everyone thought it we a 1.8 ata K4, but it was 1.98. The performance drop off from real world data was supposed to be Oleg modelling actual performance of a typical frontline aircraft rather than a cherry picked and cuddled plane. Anyway, when the patch came the K4 we already had was down rated to 1.8 ata performance and the 1.98 ata K4 one is C3.

Or something like that.

Brain32
07-20-2006, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Prop_Strike:
What we really need is for Oleg to give the Luftflyers some kind of incredible uberplane so they stop whinging about the bloody spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
Oh, no need for that, if Oleg would just modell Fw190 as a Fighter instead as a Heavy Strategic Bomber, it would be fine. Maybe with a front view that does not resemble those of the WW2 submarines...

HellToupee
07-20-2006, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Prop_Strike:
What we really need is for Oleg to give the Luftflyers some kind of incredible uberplane so they stop whinging about the bloody spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
Oh, no need for that, if Oleg would just modell Fw190 as a Fighter instead as a Heavy Strategic Bomber, it would be fine. Maybe with a front view that does not resemble those of the WW2 submarines... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so your idea of a accurate 190 is

turn of a gladiator, speed of a me262 and climb of a me163?

because right now in any server with stats 190 = most successful over every other type.

Viper2005_
07-20-2006, 06:18 AM
Of course, in the interests of balance, I would hope that all of those campaigning for the XIV would be happy to face the Me-262 in combat since at present, strathem's rather glib comment could quite easily be applied to the red team in spades.

Since IL2 is a game, the objective should be for both sides to have fun rather than for one side to achieve an insuperable technological advantage with which to beat the other about the head and body.

Nobody likes losing, and if you arrange the planeset such that one team loses all (or most of) the time, it's a fair bet that the players on that team will quit sooner or later. Shortly thereafter, the players on the "winning" team will get bored.

So, be careful what you wish for.

HellToupee
07-20-2006, 06:27 AM
Spit XIV was in service months before the me262 was.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/at13.jpg

:P

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Of course, in the interests of balance, I would hope that all of those campaigning for the XIV would be happy to face the Me-262 in combat since at present, strathem's rather glib comment could quite easily be applied to the red team in spades.


Lets face it, the Tempest was more the opponent of the 262. XIV's weren't ever used for rat catching sorties apart from opportunities. Of the 400 confirmed XIV kills, few of them are 262's...maybe thats cause there were so few 262's.

Ironically I can find more evidence of XIV's carrying bombs on sorties than I can find Tempests.

IIJG69_Kartofe
07-20-2006, 07:12 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Of course, in the interests of balance, I would hope that all of those campaigning for the XIV would be happy to face the Me-262 in combat since at present, strathem's rather glib comment could quite easily be applied to the red team in spades.

Since IL2 is a game, the objective should be for both sides to have fun rather than for one side to achieve an insuperable technological advantage with which to beat the other about the head and body.

Nobody likes losing, and if you arrange the planeset such that one team loses all (or most of) the time, it's a fair bet that the players on that team will quit sooner or later. Shortly thereafter, the players on the "winning" team will get bored.

So, be careful what you wish for.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That remind me something ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

stathem
07-20-2006, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Of course, in the interests of balance, I would hope that all of those campaigning for the XIV would be happy to face the Me-262 in combat since at present, strathem's rather glib comment could quite easily be applied to the red team in spades.

Since IL2 is a game, the objective should be for both sides to have fun rather than for one side to achieve an insuperable technological advantage with which to beat the other about the head and body.

Nobody likes losing, and if you arrange the planeset such that one team loses all (or most of) the time, it's a fair bet that the players on that team will quit sooner or later. Shortly thereafter, the players on the "winning" team will get bored.

So, be careful what you wish for.

Oh I am sorry, I was under the impression this was a light-hearted thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Kurfurst__
07-20-2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

Lets face it, the Tempest was more the opponent of the 262. XIV's weren't ever used for rat catching sorties apart from opportunities. Of the 400 confirmed XIV kills, few of them are 262's...maybe thats cause there were so few 262's.


Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable.

danjama
07-20-2006, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

Lets face it, the Tempest was more the opponent of the 262. XIV's weren't ever used for rat catching sorties apart from opportunities. Of the 400 confirmed XIV kills, few of them are 262's...maybe thats cause there were so few 262's.


Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Got Track?

Brain32
07-20-2006, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Prop_Strike:
What we really need is for Oleg to give the Luftflyers some kind of incredible uberplane so they stop whinging about the bloody spits http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
Oh, no need for that, if Oleg would just modell Fw190 as a Fighter instead as a Heavy Strategic Bomber, it would be fine. Maybe with a front view that does not resemble those of the WW2 submarines... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so your idea of a accurate 190 is

turn of a gladiator, speed of a me262 and climb of a me163?

because right now in any server with stats 190 = most successful over every other type. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I just want it correct, I'm sure you are not aware but FW190's turn rate is undermodelled by a few seconds and it's also even worse than IL2c shows. Climb rate of the Antons is still incorrect, and komandogerat works like sh1t. Front view - oldie but goldie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
Sucsess of the FW online has nothing to do with it's modelling, Spits are modelled spot-on or better and FW's are modelled only worse - don't forget to thank Oleg http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable.
You are wrong, we all know very well that Allies fought derated, crash-landed Emils and Antons A3 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

luftluuver
07-20-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable.

Got stats?

In early Jan 45 there was ~60 262s split between FBs(KG51 - 37) and fighters <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">operational</span>. Hardly equal to the Spifire XIV squadrons and more like half.

faustnik
07-20-2006, 09:50 AM
When reading Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9 the Dora pilots start describing "new Spitfires" in early 1945. When I read that my thought was Mk. XIV. They saw they new Spit Mk. as having superior performance to earlier versions.

(Just a little sidenote, but, this thread made me think of it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Viper2005_
07-20-2006, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
Oh I am sorry, I was under the impression this was a light-hearted thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Well, it is, but having been through the +25 Spitfire experience once already, I feel that it is important to highlight the other side of the coin ahead of time.

csThor
07-20-2006, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable.

Got stats?

In early Jan 45 there was ~60 262s split between FBs(KG51 - 37) and fighters <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">operational</span>. Hardly equal to the Spifire XIV squadrons and more like half. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A quick scan of www.ww2.dk (http://www.ww2.dk) reveals that on Dec 31 1944 the various Me 262 equipped units reported a strength of about 100 planes (106 for JG 7, KG 51, KG 54 & III./EJG 2). This does not include the Sonderkommando Welter (nightfighters) and Braunegg (recon). Given the end of documentation in the Flugzeugbestands- und -bewegungslisten posted at that site it's probable that this number was rather conservative.

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:

Lets face it, the Tempest was more the opponent of the 262. XIV's weren't ever used for rat catching sorties apart from opportunities. Of the 400 confirmed XIV kills, few of them are 262's...maybe thats cause there were so few 262's.


Actually, the number of XIVs and 262s operational was very comparable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In your version of events I have no doubt in that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WOLFMondo
07-20-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
When reading Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9 the Dora pilots start describing "new Spitfires" in early 1945. When I read that my thought was Mk. XIV. They saw they new Spit Mk. as having superior performance to earlier versions.

(Just a little sidenote, but, this thread made me think of it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

From way off, I can think of at least two other allied planes with eliptical wings, one of which started to appear en mass on north west Germany in very early 1945 and often fought Doras. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

faustnik
07-20-2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
When reading Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9 the Dora pilots start describing "new Spitfires" in early 1945. When I read that my thought was Mk. XIV. They saw they new Spit Mk. as having superior performance to earlier versions.

(Just a little sidenote, but, this thread made me think of it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

From way off, I can think of at least two other allied planes with eliptical wings, one of which started to appear en mass on north west Germany in very early 1945 and often fought Doras. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if your thinking of the Tempest, the Dora pilots were very aware of those!

stathem
07-20-2006, 10:28 AM
So Faustnik, which do you think they were referring to, the uprated IX's or the XIV's? What's your impression?

Did the Luftwaffe never refer to the XIV as 'a long nosed Spitfire' (or lang-nasen presumeably)?

csThor
07-20-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm not aware of any specific designations for a Spitfire than ... well ... Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HellToupee
07-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I'm sure you are not aware but FW190's turn rate is undermodelled by a few seconds




Climb rate of the Antons is still incorrect


yes i know it should have the turn rate of a gladiator and climb of a me163



You are wrong, we all know very well that Allies fought derated, crash-landed Emils and Antons A3


dont forget crewed with an undertrained pilot

Brain32
07-20-2006, 10:56 AM
yes i know it should have the turn rate of a gladiator and climb of a me163
No I don't want that, it would then become a Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HellToupee
07-20-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
No I don't want that, it would then become a Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

is that not every 190 pilots dream?

faustnik
07-20-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
So Faustnik, which do you think they were referring to, the uprated IX's or the XIV's? What's your impression?

Did the Luftwaffe never refer to the XIV as 'a long nosed Spitfire' (or lang-nasen presumeably)?

I'll have to go back and look, but, I definately got the impression that they were talking about the XIV. I suppose we could cross reference RAF units operating Mk XIVs over northern Germany?

faustnik
07-20-2006, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
yes i know it should have the turn rate of a gladiator and climb of a me163


HellToupee,

Brain is talking about PF Fw190 turn times compared to the Soviet test of captured Fw190s.
You can view a discussion of it here:

http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=F...le=viewtopic&t=10684 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10684)

The issues with climb rates are examined here:

http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=F...ile=viewtopic&t=8430 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8430)

If you are interested. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HayateAce
07-20-2006, 11:08 AM
Another Spit that pwns, the Hilter fans will go nuts!

http://www.libriumarcana.com/Uploads/Rogue/Pictures/hitlermelon.gif

MEGILE
07-20-2006, 11:11 AM
Long time since I saw that discussion.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But the conclusion was.. Oleg if you are going to make us use the A5 as an A4, then atleast get the performance right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HellToupee
07-20-2006, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by csThor:
I'm not aware of any specific designations for a Spitfire than ... well ... Spitfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

atchung spitfire?

csThor
07-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Not really ... this is probably a leftover from way too many cheesy movies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
07-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:

atchung spitfire?

Hmmmm.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Can't resist ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">YEAH! </span>

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1754/achspit185pp4.jpg

Vike
07-20-2006, 12:40 PM
As some others said,i'd rather we get a MkXIV "Griffon"

It would be something really nice and exciting to fight against it,i think,with the K4 naturally,or with the D9/13/Ta152.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/XIV.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/update6.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Daiichidoku
07-20-2006, 01:11 PM
id like to see aileron reversal added to all full-span spits:

Page 131 of NACA Report 868, Summary of Lateral-Control Research:
For the P-41C-1-RE at 400 mph IAS, a 31% loss in aileron effectiveness. The aileron reversal speed is about 545 mph IAS.
Spitfire at 400 mph IAS, approx 65% loss in aileron effectiveness.

waffen-79
07-20-2006, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
You are wrong, we all know very well that Allies fought derated, crash-landed Emils and Antons A3 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif, well that's what some people here seem to believe... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

GBrutus
07-20-2006, 01:42 PM
Sweet Lord, that Mk.XIV is so jaw-droppingly beautiful. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

More than any other aircraft, I wish we had it in this sim. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Kocur_
07-20-2006, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
id like to see aileron reversal added to all full-span spits:


+ overheat Spitfire overheat model for (at least!) all Merlin-powered planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif And frankly for most of western (and Japanese) planes, excuding types known for notorious overheating. For now its just ridiculous!

luftluuver
07-20-2006, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
A quick scan of www.ww2.dk (http://www.ww2.dk) reveals that on Dec 31 1944 the various Me 262 equipped units reported a strength of about 100 planes (106 for JG 7, KG 51, KG 54 & III./EJG 2). This does not include the Sonderkommando Welter (nightfighters) and Braunegg (recon). Given the end of documentation in the Flugzeugbestands- und -bewegungslisten posted at that site it's probable that this number was rather conservative.
Trouble with your English Thor? <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Onhand</span> and <span class="ev_code_RED">operational(servicable)</span> ARE NOT the same. Notice I said operational.

SlickStick
07-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Vike:
As some others said,i'd rather we get a MkXIV "Griffon"

It would be something really nice and exciting to fight against it,i think,with the K4 naturally,or with the D9/13/Ta152.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

OK, they can give us the XIV, too. The XIV would take much more work to get into the game though. Everything for a CW +25lb is basically there already.

Please make my XIV CW as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/8509/xiv6sl9.png

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6728/spitfiremkxivhg0.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/9918/spitxivmo8.jpg

Yummy Spitfire goodness. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Xiolablu3
07-20-2006, 08:03 PM
Can anyone answer this question for me?

I always assumed that the contemporary Bf109 was usually lighter than the same year Spitfire, but recently a few people have told me that the Spitfire was the lighter of the two.

It came out during a discussion of propellor weights and sizes, apparantly the 109 Prop is 3 times heavier than the SPitfire Prop.

Can anyone give me any info on this?

VW-IceFire
07-20-2006, 08:10 PM
Man that XIV is just a beautiful aircraft. By far the best looking of all of the Spitfires....the sleeker lines, longer nose and fuselage, and the five blade prop...looks right and flys right.

HotelBushranger
07-20-2006, 08:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif One Spit I wouldn't mind flying.

csThor
07-20-2006, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Trouble with your English Thor? <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Onhand</span> and <span class="ev_code_RED">operational(servicable)</span> ARE NOT the same. Notice I said operational.

Care to tell me your source? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

96th_Nightshifter
07-20-2006, 10:14 PM
For the love of gawd, give us a real Griffon Spit so I can stop making fake ones!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/96th_Nightshifter/Online%20Screenshots/SM832PromoPic.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/96th_Nightshifter/Online%20Screenshots/MV268PromoPic.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
07-20-2006, 10:53 PM
Oh dear God, just give us a Spitfire!!

http://www.warbirdsite.com/Skyhawkgunsight.jpg

GR142-Pipper
07-20-2006, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. ... I agree with you completely on this point. We have too many planes as it is now to properly support/refine.

GR142-Pipper

Kurfurst__
07-21-2006, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Can anyone answer this question for me?

I always assumed that the contemporary Bf109 was usually lighter than the same year Spitfire, but recently a few people have told me that the Spitfire was the lighter of the two.

It came out during a discussion of propellor weights and sizes, apparantly the 109 Prop is 3 times heavier than the SPitfire Prop.

Can anyone give me any info on this?

It's just nonsense I believe, I certainly cannot think of any contemporary spit model that would not be at least a few hundred lbs heavier... the MkV is maybe close, all the others are much heavier. The heaviest 109 would be the 109K, at ca 7400 lbs, that's the ~ weight of the MkIX..

As for the propellors, I guess it depends since Spits used quite a few types, both light metal and wooden, 2-3-4-5 blades ones, 109s only 3-bladed light metal ones.

A few specs I have, the MkIXs (61 I think) 4 bladed 'props and hub' was weighted 181 kg (400 lbs) as per German inspection. The British inspection of a G-2 tells that the weight 'complete with blades, hub and v.p. mechanism' was 375 lbs. In short, little difference alltogether.

I tend to guess the guy who's speaking is more connected emotionally than factually to the Spitfire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
07-21-2006, 02:11 AM
Thanks for the info, but the people in the thread are not biased towards either side, we all fly which ever side needs players. Certainly none of them feel the need to 'talk up' either the Spitfire or the 109.

Here is the thread in question, just for interest, you will like the pics , Kurfurst :

http://www.battle-fields.com/commscentre/showthread.php?t=11127

WOLFMondo
07-21-2006, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
When reading Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9 the Dora pilots start describing "new Spitfires" in early 1945. When I read that my thought was Mk. XIV. They saw they new Spit Mk. as having superior performance to earlier versions.

(Just a little sidenote, but, this thread made me think of it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

From way off, I can think of at least two other allied planes with eliptical wings, one of which started to appear en mass on north west Germany in very early 1945 and often fought Doras. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if your thinking of the Tempest, the Dora pilots were very aware of those! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the same way, you'd be surprised how many Typhoons were misclaimed as Tempests despite them being quite different looking planes apart from the chin radiator.

WOLFMondo
07-21-2006, 02:21 AM
Maybe Oleg has a surpise for us with the last addon. It would probably be one of the most appreciated additions to the series for many.

ploughman
07-21-2006, 03:16 AM
In the same way, you'd be surprised how many Typhoons were misclaimed as Tempests despite them being quite different looking planes apart from the chin radiator.

Quite, I guess it's a bit like the 'every Panzer IV get's reported as a Tiger tank' thing. A superficial resembelence mixed with fear, seeing what you want to see (or DON'T want to see) and, of course, the kudos of nailing what you think is one of the baddest cats in the jungle. I'm not saying anyone's deliberately misrepresenting their claims, I dare say all those guys who saw Tigers everywhere or Tempests in their gun sights genuinely believed that's what they were.

An early mis-identification that then becomes an ironclad certainty in the mind of the pilot as he commences his attack and he's moved on from thinking about what the plane is to killing it.

justflyin
07-21-2006, 08:00 AM
The poll is corrected now. Sorry about the mistype. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Why is it that the differences in-game between the full wing and CW Spitfires is not what it should be? The roll rate was dramatically improved by clipping the wings, some 45?/sec, but that is not how it's modelled in-game and the roll rate difference between the two is nowhere near as pronounced as it should be.

Also, a few have said that the full wing is faster, I'm going to look now, but I always seem to remember the CW being slightly faster, although slightly less climb and turn radius, plus slightly more unstable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

ploughman
07-21-2006, 08:04 AM
Depends on the altitude I think Justin. The fully elliptical wing creates less induced drag than the clipped wing and this effects maximum speed. I'm sure one of the resident aeronauts will elaborate.

justflyin
07-21-2006, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Depends on the altitude I think Justin. The fully elliptical wing creates less induced drag than the clipped wing and this effects maximum speed. I'm sure one of the resident aeronauts will elaborate.

Yes, I believe altitude was a main factor to the difference in overall speed, but where is my 45?/sec roll rate increase?!?! ;^)

I'm going to look back at a few of my Spitfire performance links later. I am certainly no expert when it comes to Spitfire history, but I never claimed to be one either.

She's the prettiest bird in the sky though. And that XIV, hubba-hubba. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Manu-6S
07-21-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. ... I agree with you completely on this point. We have too many planes as it is now to properly support/refine.

GR142-Pipper </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!

F6_Ace
07-21-2006, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. Never heard a spitfire vpilot complaining about the vc model that the pilot is sitting so high ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nonsense - they're all perfect. Every noob can testify to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes please - more Spits! If possible, make the Spit roll at the right rate at all speeds to make the Fw190 FM look even more ridiculous!

justflyin
07-21-2006, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
Yes please - more Spits! If possible, make the Spit roll at the right rate at all speeds to make the Fw190 FM look even more ridiculous!

Actually, I vote they fix all roll rates in this sim, FW included. Whenever I shoot down a FW, I want them to have as little as possible to whine about in the over/undermodelled department. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

The CW Spitfires were the answer to the FW scourge and the NACA chart posted earlier shows it.

Xiolablu3
07-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. Never heard a spitfire vpilot complaining about the vc model that the pilot is sitting so high ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nonsense - they're all perfect. Every noob can testify to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes please - more Spits! If possible, make the Spit roll at the right rate at all speeds to make the Fw190 FM look even more ridiculous! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such a ridiculous FM that it usually has by far the best KD ratio of any plane on most historical mini-war servers. Usually between 3:1 and 4:1 in favour of th FW190

I think you have trouble fighting Lagg3's too dont you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

robban75
07-21-2006, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Such a ridiculous FM that it usually has by far the best KD ratio of any plane on most historical mini-war servers. Usually between 3:1 and 4:1 in favour of th FW190

I think you have trouble fighting Lagg3's too dont you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Fw 190 drivers are just better pilots, that's all. Myself not included. It has nothing to do with the plane itself.

Xiolablu3
07-21-2006, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Such a ridiculous FM that it usually has by far the best KD ratio of any plane on most historical mini-war servers. Usually between 3:1 and 4:1 in favour of th FW190

I think you have trouble fighting Lagg3's too dont you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Fw 190 drivers are just better pilots, that's all. Myself not included. It has nothing to do with the plane itself. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, the FW190 is just more survivable, it can take much more damage and get home than other planes like the 109 or Spitfire.

It has everything to do with the plane itself. On the server I play on, people play all sides and fly all planes, they dont just stick to one.

If I fly the FW190 I survive much better than flying a SPitfire or a 109, and I am not a great 190 pilot.

It is very often the fastest plane on the server, meaning oyu can almost always get back to base if you are being chased. A SPitfire is constantly caught and attacked until he reaches a teamate or home. A reasonable pilot can often be untouchable in aFW190, and F6Ace knows this, I learned it on his server, from his fellow copilots.

FW190A4 versus Spitfire Vb, the classic 1942 channel matchup where the Luftwaffe historically had the better plane, is a turkey shoot for the FW190 if the pilot has any kind of brains at all. Things get harder with the Mk IX vs 190A8, but then thats historically correct too, the MiX was MADE to combat the FW190.

robban75
07-21-2006, 12:54 PM
The Fw 190A has a higher top speed at low altitude, but that's it. The Spitfire is better at everything else. It climbs alot better, turns alot better, and it has a better dive acceleration up to 770km/h TAS. The Spitfire has a poor roll rate at this speed, but so does the 190 in its current state. The lack of torque effect allows for crazy manouvers at very low speeds, but this benefits the 109 and Lavochkin fighters as well. Strangely enough, only the Yak's seems to have torque effect modelled.

The Fw 190 suffers from a speed bug between 1000 and 3000m. This bug seriously hampers the 190's survivability between those alts. The 190's turn performance is also lacking. Currently it takes 2-3 seconds longer to complete a 360, compared to real life russian numbers taken from a Jabo A-4 in poor condition.

I remember when Oleg wrote that the Ta 152 had a turn time similar to the La-7. The Ta 152 actually needs 24 seconds to complete a 360 in game. Hardly similar to the La-7.

Kocur_
07-21-2006, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Not true, the FW190 is just more survivable, it can take much more damage and get home than other planes like the 109 or Spitfire.

(...)

It is very often the fastest plane on the server, meaning oyu can almost always get back to base if you are being chased.

Almost any hit by any weapon on Fw-190 wing makes it lose enough speed to be easily cought by any opponent - the same goes to other E-fighters, which depend largely on top speed, Mustang especialy. That gives you plenty of opportunity to test Fw-190 durability pretty soon. Durability tests advance rapidly however and crash-test comes soon after.

I agree with robban on Fw-190 pilots. "Better" by not anything more than having in mind, that after making a single mistake when facing experienced opponent, they are toasted with no ability to do anything really as you cant neither outturn or out-spiral climb anything. People who try Fw-190 either drop the idea after the first flight or develop avoid-risk flying style, which benfits with better K/D.
Pilots who many planes, including Fw-190 often simply have more than one flying style and act differently in different planes: freely in say Spitfire but very carefully in Fw-190.

faustnik
07-21-2006, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
I agree with robban on Fw-190 pilots. "Better" by not anything more than having in mind, that after making a single mistake when facing experienced opponent, they are toasted with no ability to do anything really as you cant neither outturn or out-spiral climb anything. People who try Fw-190 either drop the idea after the first flight or develop avoid-risk flying style, which benfits with better K/D.
Pilots who many planes, including Fw-190 often simply have more than one flying style and act differently in different planes: freely in say Spitfire but very carefully in Fw-190.

100% true. The Fw190 forces you to fly conservatively.

It also has the big advatage of very heavy firepower.

*******************

Back to the topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , the Spit IX +25 clipped seems like a very simple addition to the sim. I'd really like to see the MkXIV, but, it would mean a lot more work. If I had "my way" in 4.07 additions they would be:

Spit XIV
Dora 11, 12, or 13
Mustang IV
Tempest +11
Standard rating Fw190A4 (sorry, had to add it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-21-2006, 01:55 PM
I would love to see the first MkIXs of mid '42, with the MkV tailfin.

faustnik
07-21-2006, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
I would love to see the first MkIXs of mid '42, with the MkV tailfin.

Yeah, the MkIX Merlin 61 and the standard rating Fw190A4 would be a great pair to add!!!!

Good call! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p1ngu666
07-21-2006, 02:10 PM
you forgot about the mossie with merlin 25's, and a yak9u late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

incidently, i do WAAAAAAAAAY better in a 190 than a yak3

faustnik
07-21-2006, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
you forgot about the mossie with merlin 25's, and a yak9u late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

incidently, i do WAAAAAAAAAY better in a 190 than a yak3

Oops, you're right, forgot the Mossie. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

All Yaks are very squirrely in 4.05 and Yak 3 has a tiny ammo load. Weve been flying Stalingrad COOPs for a while now (Soviet side), and I prefer the Lagg3 to the Yak1. Used to be the other way around.

RaVe_N
07-21-2006, 02:53 PM
Spits offer zero challenge to the virtual pilot ...
they are what I call the lazy mans plane especially that noob 25lb junk holy noobishness..

VW-IceFire
07-21-2006, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by RaVe_N:
Spits offer zero challenge to the virtual pilot ...
they are what I call the lazy mans plane especially that noob 25lb junk holy noobishness..
Its still ideal for the average pilot who is a new virtual pilot. He doesn't have 3 years of online flight experience behind him, a sophisticated joystick setup, or any concept of what real WWII aerial combat is. He doesn't understand energy fighting, gun convergence, engine power settings, radiator controls, or supercharger stages. Much like the RAF pilots brought in during the Battle of Britain the average virtual pilot loves the Spitfire for its historical qualities of being easy to fly. As one RAF pilot put it to a captured 109 pilot "The reason we won the Battle of Britain is because any idiot can fly a Spitfire."

Thats not a bad thing...its the mark of a good design, particularly when thats just what you need to combat your enemy. War isn't about whats fair but about what wins you the day, the battle, or the war.

ploughman
07-21-2006, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by RaVe_N:
Spits offer zero challenge to the virtual pilot ...
they are what I call the lazy mans plane especially that noob 25lb junk holy noobishness..

Got track?

RCAF_Irish_403
07-21-2006, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
you forgot about the mossie with merlin 25's, and a yak9u late http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

incidently, i do WAAAAAAAAAY better in a 190 than a yak3

Oops, you're right, forgot the Mossie. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

All Yaks are very squirrely in 4.05 and Yak 3 has a tiny ammo load. Weve been flying Stalingrad COOPs for a while now (Soviet side), and I prefer the Lagg3 to the Yak1. Used to be the other way around. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right...the Yak 1 is way more dangerous to the pilot than it is the enemy...sorry im OT.

the Mk XIV Spit gets me hot under the collar...K4's vs Spit XIV would be an awesome matchup.

To be honest tho...i'm more waiting for SoW with the E3/E4 vs Spit MKI matchup

SlickStick
07-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by RaVe_N:
Spits offer zero challenge to the virtual pilot ...
they are what I call the lazy mans plane especially that noob 25lb junk holy noobishness..

Here's a tissue to dry your eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2376/kleenexdu5.jpg

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:

Almost any hit by any weapon on Fw-190 wing makes it lose enough speed to be easily cought by any opponent - the same goes to other E-fighters, which depend largely on top speed, Mustang especialy. That gives you plenty of opportunity to test Fw-190 durability pretty soon. Durability tests advance rapidly however and crash-test comes soon after.


The trick is to not get hit

However with wing dammage it may get slowed down but it can take many many hits to the engine and fuselage and not be slowed down, hell ive had some trailing smoke after a good burst walk away with ease. But then taking hits in the first place means u have already screwed up and speed is not ur get out of jail free card.

GR142-Pipper
07-22-2006, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Not true, the FW190 is just more survivable, it can take much more damage and get home than other planes like the 109 or Spitfire.

(...)

It is very often the fastest plane on the server, meaning oyu can almost always get back to base if you are being chased.

Almost any hit by any weapon on Fw-190 wing makes it lose enough speed to be easily cought by any opponent - the same goes to other E-fighters, which depend largely on top speed, Mustang especialy. That gives you plenty of opportunity to test Fw-190 durability pretty soon. Durability tests advance rapidly however and crash-test comes soon after. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree. The TA-152 takes an inordinate amount of damage and maintains airspeed. The same holds true to an even higher degree for the Ki-84 as well.


I agree with robban on Fw-190 pilots. "Better" by not anything more than having in mind, that after making a single mistake when facing experienced opponent, they are toasted with no ability to do anything really as you cant neither outturn or out-spiral climb anything. People who try Fw-190 either drop the idea after the first flight or develop avoid-risk flying style, which benfits with better K/D.
Pilots who many planes, including Fw-190 often simply have more than one flying style and act differently in different planes: freely in say Spitfire but very carefully in Fw-190. My experience has been that the 190 pilots are by and large risk-averse. Sorry but it doesn't take much skill to blow through a fight, shoot at others while they're engaged and then run away in an aircraft that can take punishment like no other (except the Ki-84).

...just my take.

GR142-Pipper

Vike
07-22-2006, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
the Mk XIV Spit gets me hot under the collar...K4's vs Spit XIV would be an awesome matchup.

Exactly what i think too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RaVe_N:
Spits offer zero challenge to the virtual pilot ...
they are what I call the lazy mans plane especially that noob 25lb junk holy noobishness..

Here's a tissue to dry your eyes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2376/kleenexdu5.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Raven,*THIS* would be a lot lot more efficient against any Spitfire. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/mk108-1.jpg

@+ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

F6_Ace
07-22-2006, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Before adding new models there is plenty of work on the old ones regarding energy retention , fm , dm etc. Never heard a spitfire vpilot complaining about the vc model that the pilot is sitting so high ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nonsense - they're all perfect. Every noob can testify to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes please - more Spits! If possible, make the Spit roll at the right rate at all speeds to make the Fw190 FM look even more ridiculous! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Such a ridiculous FM that it usually has by far the best KD ratio of any plane on most historical mini-war servers. Usually between 3:1 and 4:1 in favour of th FW190

I think you have trouble fighting Lagg3's too dont you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, the 'but it does well on AirQuake DF servers so it must be alright' logic which is, of course, utter cobblers and a consistent flaw of thinking in this community.

Actually, I had no trouble shooting down anything in a 190...well, apart from La5FN UFOs below 3000m. Funny for someone to talk about a 190 having an uber DM when they refer to a Lagg3, also http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The only problem with Lagg3s is pumping enough 20mm rounds in them to flake a bit of paint off.

Talking of survivability, once you get altitude in a Spitfire, it's even easier to survive than in a 190 because no-one can outclimb you and your performance doesn't fall off at alt like in a VVS plane. First time I ever flew the 25lb Spit online (I don't fly the noobfire much, either), I took on 5 LW planes and shot 4 down (before help turned up) without getting a scratch just by maintaining alt which, of course, is child's play. I'd like to see a FW190 pilot stay in the fight with 5 Spitfires and come out on top http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The following points by others are all correct. You gain a high k/d in a 190 because you have to only attack when the conditions are favourable and you have to leave when they are not; not because the plane is uber in the DM (completely laughable to suggest so) or FM (even more so) department. The pilots are adept at risk assessment and don't get into unrealistic 'turn fights without having to worry about physical effects' noobtastical engagements.

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:

Talking of survivability, once you get altitude in a Spitfire, it's even easier to survive than in a 190 because no-one can outclimb you and your performance doesn't fall off at alt like in a VVS plane.

Lets see u climb in a combat zone and survive long enough for alt performance drop off to ever been an issue. Climbing plane = target.

carguy_
07-22-2006, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
Lets see u climb in a combat zone and survive long enough for alt performance drop off to ever been an issue. Climbing plane = target.

No problem,above 200km/h you just pull as narrow circle as you can,it will take up to three very fast LW planes to bang you.Coupled with a split S or roll makes the Spit fairly safe because it has great low speed control to unique energy retention.A yak pilot runs out of energy and simply has to level in order to gain some spped to spend it again on maneuvering.The Spitfire pilot is able to make multiple hard maneuvers without losing control yet he is able to pull the angle to gain a solution on now zooming Luftwaffle that attacked him a second ago.


The only thing many LW pilots seem not to realise is that every Spitfire is relatively poor high distance shooter.Machineguns are not an issue above 250m distance.Also nobody in their right mind would take a long shot with few seconds of fire the Hispanos hot.

Up to 180m however,the Spitfire has the same destructiveness potential as the Focke Wulf A6.

F6_Ace
07-22-2006, 05:10 AM
No problem,above 200km/h you just pull as narrow circle as you can,it will take up to three very fast LW planes to bang you.Coupled with a split S or roll makes the Spit fairly safe because it has great low speed control to unique energy retention.A yak pilot runs out of energy and simply has to level in order to gain some spped to spend it again on maneuvering.The Spitfire pilot is able to make multiple hard maneuvers without losing control yet he is able to pull the angle to gain a solution on now zooming Luftwaffle that attacked him a second ago


Couldn't have put it better myself.

There is another solution, of course...just climb away from the action like any 190 pilot HAS to do anyway prior to engagement as only a noob would decide to start climbing once inside a combat area. Hence one of the few reasons why so many Spits are easy to bag - poor pilots. Put a pilot-with-a-clue (tm) in one and it's a different kettle of water-dwelling vertebrates with gills.

'unique energy retention' - I like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:


No problem,above 200km/h you just pull as narrow circle as you can,it will take up to three very fast LW planes to bang you.Coupled with a split S or roll makes the Spit fairly safe because it has great low speed control to unique energy retention.A yak pilot runs out of energy and simply has to level in order to gain some spped to spend it again on maneuvering.The Spitfire pilot is able to make multiple hard maneuvers without losing control yet he is able to pull the angle to gain a solution on now zooming Luftwaffle that attacked him a second ago.


The only thing many LW pilots seem not to realise is that every Spitfire is relatively poor high distance shooter.Machineguns are not an issue above 250m distance.Also nobody in their right mind would take a long shot with few seconds of fire the Hispanos hot.

Up to 180m however,the Spitfire has the same destructiveness potential as the Focke Wulf A6.

At 200kph the spit is riding a stall he cant manover, any turn still bleeds alot of speed to pull a turn tight enough to avoid a good shot requires giving alt if at climbing speed.

A 109g2 turns better than a spitfire does at low speeds is less stall prone and can be chucked around easyer especially neg g manovers, shooting them in climbs i find is very easy. A spitfire needs to be going quite a bit over 300 to be able to pull a turn suffient to escape guns of a good 190 pilot, unless hes going way to fast to manover.

As for destructive ness potentional of a6? you know the a6 has 4 x 20mm + 2 machine guns right?

MEGILE
07-22-2006, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:

First time I ever flew the 25lb Spit online (I don't fly the noobfire much, either), I took on 5 LW planes and shot 4 down

They must have been noobs, because I would have pwned you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

In all fairness, while the Spit 25 does kick a$$ and can take on any plane, I have yet to see a track of one of these Focke Wulf "I can pwn in teh spitfire" aces dominating on a full real server.. with kill runs they claim they are capable of.

Manu-6S
07-22-2006, 07:27 AM
Agree with carguy except:


Originally posted by carguy_:
The only thing many LW pilots seem not to realise is that every Spitfire is relatively poor high distance shooter.Machineguns are not an issue above 250m distance.

If you are in a FW190 you might pay attention for the PK... the most of the times I got killed in FW was for PK caused by MGs (average of 2 on 3).

Manu-6S
07-22-2006, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
Lets see u climb in a combat zone and survive long enough for alt performance drop off to ever been an issue. Climbing plane = target.

What? Have LW (or VVS) planes a strange teleport device so they can start above the fight?

In this case I find myself more secure in a Spit than in a plane that has a worser ROC and the inability to turn (Antons). Edit: and since we are talking about 25lbs, I add the acceleration issue too.

Oh... usually I don't take off into a fight... I prefer to take off from another airfield.

Brain32
07-22-2006, 08:25 AM
*snaps fingers in front of keyboard*

The TA-152 takes an inordinate amount of damage and maintains airspeed.
Honestly, I don't know about the Ta152, but every other FW190 will loose up to 100Km/h with one good .50 in the wing not to mention that any kind of manouvering is downright dangerous while before landing praying Our Father is recommended on final...
Ofcourse you can punch a good 20mm burst into Spitfire wing and it still outturns and outclimbs you with easy, almost like nothing happened...ofcourse any other Red plane will feel significant handling and speed problems and will basically be a sitting duck just like the FW190 and ME109...

Sorry but it doesn't take much skill to blow through a fight, shoot at others while they're engaged and then run away in an aircraft that can take punishment like no other (except the Ki-84).
Well ofcourse, I guess it must be frustrating when you get blown from the sky in your everything vastly outturning and everything vastly outclimbing, and outeverything plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Lets see u climb in a combat zone and survive long enough for alt performance drop off to ever been an issue.
What so weird about that, I do it all the time and I kill the sh1t from everybody in a Spitfire, don't know how to use it or what?

At 200kph the spit is riding a stall he cant manover
Which game are you playing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

A 109g2 turns better than a spitfire does at low speeds is less stall prone and can be chucked around easyer especially neg g manovers, shooting them in climbs i find is very easy. A spitfire needs to be going quite a bit over 300 to be able to pull a turn suffient to escape guns of a good 190 pilot, unless hes going way to fast to manover.
Are you sure you had all realism options on?

I have yet to see a track of one of these Focke Wulf "I can pwn in teh spitfire" aces dominating on a full real server.. with kill runs they claim they are capable of.
Do you want to see one, I recorded my 4kill run on WC the other day, but I can make a freash one today if you like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

F6_Ace
07-22-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F6_Ace:

First time I ever flew the 25lb Spit online (I don't fly the noobfire much, either), I took on 5 LW planes and shot 4 down

They must have been noobs, because I would have pwned you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

In all fairness, while the Spit 25 does kick a$$ and can take on any plane, I have yet to see a track of one of these Focke Wulf "I can pwn in teh spitfire" aces dominating on a full real server.. with kill runs they claim they are capable of. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you find such a high ratio of noobs in co-ops which is where I did the business.

The reason why someone would not be able to dominate the Spit in a DF server is that when there is a Spit 25lb available in a 50 player slot server, there would be 45 people flying that noobfire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Ofcourse you can punch a good 20mm burst into Spitfire wing and it still outturns and outclimbs you with easy, almost like nothing happened...ofcourse any other Red plane will feel significant handling and speed problems and will basically be a sitting duck just like the FW190 and ME109...


ive taken machine gun hits from a g2 without any cannon ammo left(303 like guns) and had my spit unable to outurn a b25 or go over 400kph.

Today i put all over mr 190d9 only to have to trailing smoke and fuel and pull away from my tempest, took an extended chase anda hot engine to finsh him off, it gets slowed down as often as a spit gets rendered a bus with hits the the wing.





What so weird about that, I do it all the time and I kill the sh1t from everybody in a Spitfire, don't know how to use it or what?


anyone coalt or above or even below with speed just loves to see someone in a spiral climb, its almost a free kill, slow speed good angle sucide for the climber in anything but 1v1.



At 200kph the spit is riding a stall he cant manover
Which game are you playing? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
[/quote]

the game i am playing is il2, a spit flying at 250kph is a target, if it rolls while turning it will snap. Any turn it does make due to its slow speed any 190 pilot could pull inside and shoot.



Are you sure you had all realism options on?


quite, g2 has greater low speed turn ingame than that of a spitfire 9 thats not debatable really.

carguy_
07-22-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
At 200kph the spit is riding a stall he cant manover, any turn still bleeds alot of speed to pull a turn tight enough to avoid a good shot requires giving alt if at climbing speed.

Yup,that is if the maneuver is flat 0descend/0climb.If the Spitfire goes into vertical coupled with the turn it lets norrow it significantly.Flat turns are for rookies.Easy to calculate deflection for this.
The vertical+horizontal gives the Spitfire(all of them besides Vc)better turning performance and far better energy retention.Whatever the maneuver,the Spitfire will come out on the top.
As I said earlier,if the stall can be avoided,the Spit will have enough speed for more complicated maneuvers.If he gets caught by a second Luftwaffle he didn`t see,it`s over.But that`s already a 2v1 scenario.




A 109g2 turns better than a spitfire does at low speeds is less stall prone and can be chucked around easyer especially neg g manovers, shooting them in climbs i find is very easy.

Yes,correct below 190km/h where the Spit is outmatched by the slats but a universal getaway is switching into vertical.Above 260km/h 109 other than E/F2 don`t have a chance.
Climbing Spitfire loses control @130km/h.Sub G6 109s are about the same,although if they lose energy they have to find a way to regain it.Spitfire does not have that problem since at the end of the maneuver he already has the same speed as then when he entered it.




A spitfire needs to be going quite a bit over 300 to be able to pull a turn suffient to escape guns of a good 190 pilot, unless hes going way to fast to manover.


Yup I stand corrected I was wrong bout the circle@200km/h as flat turn is not a good idea in the IX(at that speed).But hey,up goes the nose and you`ve got an easy way evading the attack.The FW190 doesn`t have too much trouble managing solutions above 370km/h.
Although mostly a half roll with a bit of vertical(or quick scissors) does it for the attack and the Spit begins to climb.Even if the FW190 still gains distance,he will be leveled with the Spitfire in few minutes.Attack is over.




As for destructive ness potentional of a6? you know the a6 has 4 x 20mm + 2 machine guns right?


Yes,above 200m distance the FW is far better at this.Lower,the Spit is the same although long bursts are a no no.


Because sincerely,those two machineguns don`t matter.

HellToupee
07-22-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Yup,that is if the maneuver is flat 0descend/0climb.If the Spitfire goes into vertical coupled with the turn it lets norrow it significantly.Flat turns are for rookies.Easy to calculate deflection for this.
The vertical+horizontal gives the Spitfire(all of them besides Vc)better turning performance and far better energy retention.Whatever the maneuver,the Spitfire will come out on the top.
As I said earlier,if the stall can be avoided,the Spit will have enough speed for more complicated maneuvers.If he gets caught by a second Luftwaffle he didn`t see,it`s over.But that`s already a 2v1 scenario.

Spit will only come out on top if the lw bird tries to follow him down thru the turn, me ild go verticle and come straight down on him, gives a better angle and they usually spend all their time going defensive lose alt and speed.




A 109g2 turns better than a spitfire does at low speeds is less stall prone and can be chucked around easyer especially neg g manovers, shooting them in climbs i find is very easy.

Yes,correct below 190km/h where the Spit is outmatched by the slats but a universal getaway is switching into vertical.Above 260km/h 109 other than E/F2 don`t have a chance.
Climbing Spitfire loses control @130km/h.Sub G6 109s are about the same,although if they lose energy they have to find a way to regain it.Spitfire does not have that problem since at the end of the maneuver he already has the same speed as then when he entered it.
[/QUOTE]

g2 has been modeled with a climb equal to that of late 109s, spitfire wins vert fights vs g2s not because of climb because it puts the speed of fight generally over the 300kph range where it turns better however its not alot better.
The spit does lose energy.



Because sincerely,those two machineguns don`t matter.

the 4 303s on the spit matter just as much as those 2 guns, they are equally useless. In no shape or form does 2 hispanos even come close to the hitting power of 4 mg151s on the 190.

danjama
07-22-2006, 09:00 PM
i just want a mk14, what are you all talking about http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

GR142-Pipper
07-22-2006, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Well ofcourse, I guess it must be frustrating when you get blown from the sky in your everything vastly outturning and everything vastly outclimbing, and outeverything plane.
Nah, I don't fly Ki-84's as you've described above (Yaks are my preference). But I do feel the weaker players tend to fly 190's/TA-152/Ki-84...because they're the only things that they're survivable in. This view is further reinforced because the U.S. mid/late war aircraft are so pathetically undermodeled thusfar. The 25 lb. Spit being a clear U.K. exception to help balance the scales a bit.

...anyway, just my take. If you feel otherwise, enjoy.

GR142-Pipper

96th_Nightshifter
07-22-2006, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:

Ofcourse you can punch a good 20mm burst into Spitfire wing and it still outturns and outclimbs you with easy, almost like nothing happened...ofcourse any other Red plane will feel significant handling and speed problems and will basically be a sitting duck just like the FW190 and ME109...


I have to disagree there - a hit to the wing in a Spitfire is like a death sentance. As soon as I take a hit in the wing its time to rtb, I don't know what other peoples version of the Spitfire is like (I was under the idea that we all had the same game) but the ones I fly are not some indestructable, teleporting ufos that can turn on a dime, don't lose any E and can blow Axis planes to pieces just by looking at them.

As with any plane, you fly it whilst using a bit of sense and to its advantages then all you have to worry about is being outnumbered or outflown by a better pilot.
I don't even fly the 25lbs Spit but see no reason why I shouldn't if it is available.


All I want is a MKXIV too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
07-22-2006, 09:54 PM
i think if oleg gave all the spits the FM of ju52, ppl would still whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

and sure, if 190 gets hit it goes slower... same is true of any plane, and if a "turner" plane get hits, that messes up its turn ability.

a few planes are better at that, the american planes with there all axis trim are notably easier to manhandle around with damage, because u can cancel out some of the effect...

i think the last time i flew a yak3, i got bounced, had the **** shot out of me, and it need full throttle to stay in the air, and only then *just* about.

zeros are bizarely really badly effected by some wing damage.

as to why there so popular, think of another competitive ride. that isnt german http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. or for the most part russian, so lets wave goodbye to la7 and i185, the only real contenders.

p51 wings fall off. p38, controls. p47 okish

tempest, worlds fastest bbq.

zero, lol, no really try it out. perfect fighter for 334th ud think...

ofcourse u could avoid the 25lb version by not fighting on the servers with it on. but then chances are you would haveto leave your alcholic 109s, and your dora's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

VW-IceFire
07-22-2006, 10:04 PM
Nightshifter...they expect that a single 12.7mm machine gun shell from their 109 will cripple your Spitfire so that both wings fall off and the engine lights on fire.

Honestly...something is wrong if folks are complaining about the Spits DM. Its quite alright. I've never seen anything suspect about it. If you hit them with more than 2 or 3 MG151/20s they split open like a can of beans in an electric can opener.

If its a MK108 then I just attempt to get darned close and get a pair of shots into them and thats all thats generally needed.

I think the problem is that alot of people have poor aim or the aim effectiveness is not good. So what happens is they pepper their target with random shells hit a wingtip, hit a rear stabilizer, or hit the fuselage. One hit in three areas is going to do damage but not catestrophically. You want to cluster your shots...no matter what the gun is. If you consistently hit the Spitfire all in the same spot then he comes right apart.

Works well against bombers too. I can recount several occasions where the Bf109's single MG151/20 cut off a B-25 wing in under 2 seconds of fire. 30 degree angle deflection shot from above on the same wing with a cluster of shots and boom he went down. Same thing from a P-38J on a pair of He-111s that I shot down in the same pass.

I'm not always this gifted but I don't blame the game when I just pepper my target a bit. You have to hit them hard and make it count. Someone did a video about this before...about how to fly with deliberate and precise manuevering and shooting.

The same thing works on every plane...but the ones with old DM's just absorb countless rounds in the same spot before they suddenly split apart. The Spit doesn't have this problem at all.

Viper2005_
07-23-2006, 01:19 PM
In my experience, you'll knock the wings of a Spitfire with about 10-12 rounds from an Fw-190. That's 2 rounds per gun.

You've just got to put the rounds down accurately, and in a short space of time.

BTW, if you want an alternative competative, red fighter for the Western Front, I suggest spending a week learning to shoot the .50 and then flying the Mustang III. It's a real killer.

As for wings falling off, stay below VNE and they won't. If you must fly faster than VNE, apply about 15 clicks of nose down trim, and be gentle.

HellToupee
07-23-2006, 01:40 PM
no amount of shooting makes those 4 .50s hit hard unless ur gunnery is up around 100% hit rate :P.

Kocur_
07-23-2006, 02:41 PM
As for wings falling off, stay below VNE and they won't. If you must fly faster than VNE, apply about 15 clicks of nose down trim, and be gentle.

Im affraid exceeding VE is not what it takes to have wings ripping off from P-51s. Its all better now than in past patches but it sometimes still happenes sometimes at say 650kmh SBS (Speed Bar Speed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) and surprisingly gentle move of the stick. I think it varies depending on temperature, ie. wing seem to fall off more often in winter maps, at least it was so before. Above doesnt change the fact, that its much improved since 4.04, which in turn doesnt change the fact that the 'feature' is not realistic IMHO. I dont belive that RL pilots were able to pull enough gs at high speed in planes known of well harmonised controls, which includes elevator force increacing accordingly with speed (which excludes Spitfires btw...). And that brings us back to problem of CoG in P-51, i.e. it was possible to damage RL P-51 by pulling too many gs when CoG was shifted backwards with rear tank filled.
But why do I write this in Spitfire thread? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Oh:
Please add 75''Hg P-51D or 25lbs Mustang Mk.IV http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Kocur_
07-23-2006, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
no amount of shooting makes those 4 .50s hit hard unless ur gunnery is up around 100% hit rate :P.

.50s dont kill. They wound. Sometimes mortally, but the effect is rarely instant.
Not that I dont cut off wings with short bursts even from P-51C sometimes, esp. when the target is pulling some gs.

p1ngu666
07-23-2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
no amount of shooting makes those 4 .50s hit hard unless ur gunnery is up around 100% hit rate :P.

.50s dont kill. They wound. Sometimes mortally, but the effect is rarely instant.
Not that I dont cut off wings with short bursts even from P-51C sometimes, esp. when the target is pulling some gs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wound 109s, kill tigers.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kocur_
07-23-2006, 03:23 PM
Well Spitfires make majority of my targets http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (no, I have no complaints about their DM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

HellToupee
07-23-2006, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
no amount of shooting makes those 4 .50s hit hard unless ur gunnery is up around 100% hit rate :P.

.50s dont kill. They wound. Sometimes mortally, but the effect is rarely instant.
Not that I dont cut off wings with short bursts even from P-51C sometimes, esp. when the target is pulling some gs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wounded animals are still dangerous http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImpStarDuece
07-24-2006, 03:12 AM
Dont know that 4 x.50 isn't necessariyl instantly leathal.

On WC a few nights ago, flying the Mustang III I ripped the right wing of a 190A with my very first burst of the evening (dead 6 from around 150m)and then flamed a 109G with my second (15 degrees deflection from about 20 degrees below). Got jumped by a 190D that ended my sortie fairly quickly, but I'd probably held the trigger down for less than 2-2.5 seconds and got two kills and i'm not that good a shot.

Intruder_GP
07-24-2006, 05:38 AM
basically the 25Lbs FM needs to be corrected as it flies and retains its E unrealistically...Currently I categorize this bird in its present form a NOOB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

stathem
07-24-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by Intruder_GP:
basically the 25Lbs FM needs to be corrected as it flies and retains its E unrealistically...Currently I categorize this bird in its present form a NOOB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Nope. BS.

The +25lb retains it's E in exactly the same manner as every other Mk IX. The thing is, it has this thing up front, commonly referred to as an 'engine', which can be used to adjust an E state, in exchange for a substance called 'petrol' or 'gas'. The +25lb version's 'engine' is much more powerful (at certain altitudes) than a standard Mk IX, so it can 'regain' it's E much faster.