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View Full Version : Planes Performing Better.... FM changes?



VFS-22_SPaRX
01-03-2007, 03:33 PM
Oleg stated that there were no changes to the FM with the latest patches. Sure we have seem some weight changes, but I would not call them FM changes. Has anyone considered that this perceived performance increase is purely from the new stick routines? Maybe things like... climb rates, acceleration, turn times, e retention are all directly related to how efficient you are with your control surfaces? And now that the new stick routines are actually almost forcing people to be more effecient?

Dunno, just some food for thought. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

VFS-22_SPaRX
01-03-2007, 03:33 PM
Oleg stated that there were no changes to the FM with the latest patches. Sure we have seem some weight changes, but I would not call them FM changes. Has anyone considered that this perceived performance increase is purely from the new stick routines? Maybe things like... climb rates, acceleration, turn times, e retention are all directly related to how efficient you are with your control surfaces? And now that the new stick routines are actually almost forcing people to be more effecient?

Dunno, just some food for thought. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

carguy_
01-03-2007, 06:20 PM
Shhhhhhhhh.....don`t say that,we can`t be sure if it stays like this in final.

FINGERS CROSSED!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sigjzg23upgraded.jpg
Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002
: Badsight.:"increased manouverability for bf-109s was satire" :
Please bring back 3.01 dots!

Brain32
01-03-2007, 06:26 PM
I don't know what it is but this FW190A I've been flying last few days is not the one I remember http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWMaxGunz
01-03-2007, 06:42 PM
Go back to summer 2002 when IL2 1.04 came out. The stick changed, what the sliders mean and
the patch made sliders all go to old default.

There came a huge amount of whining, IIRC the term Luftwhiner was invented then. It was all
complaints about the FM and speed bleed and FW's cannot be this bad, end of the world, etc.

After a while Oleg posted his slider settings and when people tried those suddenly only the
hard core whiners were left complaining, the majority of players were happy again. Without
a new patch (we got one later anyway). Without FM change. But everything changed except
for the ones that are never happy with less than uber their favorite planes.

The confusion between feel and FM, between what joystick means and virtual controls has
always been with us. FM is interpreted as "I pull on the stick so far it should do thus."
by most players and sorry no, please look farther or forever be wrong.

SeaFireLIV
01-03-2007, 06:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Oleg stated that there were no changes to the FM with the latest patches. Sure we have seem some weight changes, but I would not call them FM changes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, I think that this sim is so complex and intertwined with every aspect of itself that changing things like weight and energy retention can affect every aircraft even if actual fms are not touched. I believe even the smallest adjustment can have far reaching effects like dropping a pebble in a pond and watching the ripples spread out.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">


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FritzGryphon
01-03-2007, 07:15 PM
I think that people will see what they want, and a tiny change in the feel will produce delusions of drastically changed FMs.

Ultimately, you need to test to know if anything changed.

Xiolablu3
01-03-2007, 07:25 PM
I think these stick changes have definitely made a big improvement for those who were seeing problems with planes.

To take an extreme example, Pipper now thinks the P51 is much better and handles better, where as I, and some others like Brain32, dont see much difference at all.

Therefore when we were arguing about the P51 in the past, we were obviously having 2 different experiences in the plane.

I think these stick inputs have made a big improvement in handling for people with certain sticks and settings, but not much for people who had no problems before.

I do notice that planes like the FW190 seem to hold energy better, if you point straight up to the sky and zoom climb, a Spitfire or Zero couild often stand on its nose and fire as your nose dropped well before theirs.

Now I see the FW190 (or any energy fighter) holding on almost as well as a turnfighter when pointing straight up.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Pollack2006
01-03-2007, 07:33 PM
Honestly, if Oleg released a new patch tomorrow that contained absolutely zero changes the forum would nevertheless be flooded with "Hey have you tried X yet? It feels really great now. This is my favourite patch ever!" posts.

Skycat_2
01-03-2007, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
I don't know what it is but this FW190A I've been flying last few days is not the one I remember http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I totally agree. This was my first "Aha!" determination about 1946. I hated the Fw190A in 4.04m and never flew it; in 1946 it is much more pleasant and actually tolerable (the limited cockpit view not withstanding). Maybe it has something to do with the difference between modular installs vs. the DVD's single install?

I still have 4.04m on my computer, so I'll go back and make sure it isn't a placebo effect.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VFS-22_SPaRX
01-03-2007, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">don't know what it is but this FW190A I've been flying last few days is not the one I remember </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well sure it isn't. You are being forced to fly it better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The confusion between feel and FM, between what joystick means and virtual controls has
always been with us. FM is interpreted as "I pull on the stick so far it should do thus."
by most players and sorry no, please look farther or forever be wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To be honest, I think that this sim is so complex and intertwined with every aspect of itself that changing things like weight and energy retention can affect every aircraft even if actual fms are not touched. I believe even the smallest adjustment can have far reaching effects like dropping a pebble in a pond and watching the ripples spread out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with concept you have there, but all the planes that are "perceived" as flying better did not get any weight changes to them. So for that to hold true, all planes would have to have gotten weight changes. Sure weight plays a part in the FM, but it is just a value in the FM equation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think these stick changes have definitely made a big improvement for those who were seeing problems with planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I would agree. Maybe because now they are almost being forced to fly more efficiently? Maybe those wild and e-burning inputs are smoothed out for them?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do notice that planes like the FW190 seem to hold energy better, if you point straight up to the sky and zoom climb, a Spitfire or Zero couild often stand on its nose and fire as your nose dropped well before theirs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same as above. Maybe your inputs are steady now so your are not burning E and Speed in your zooms?

Just some more food for thought. They didn't just come up with the phrase "Coordinated Flight" for no reason http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

Bearcat99
01-04-2007, 09:57 AM
I dont know... and I dont really care as long as it doesnt change..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
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carguy_
01-04-2007, 12:55 PM
"FORCED to fly more efficiently"??!

LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Think with your own brain man.Don`t take anything ppl say for granted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


You can say that to ppl who play this game few months.Those who have more stick time with the game,know their stuff.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sigjzg23upgraded.jpg
Self-proclaimed dedicated Willywhiner since July 2002
: Badsight.:"increased manouverability for bf-109s was satire" :
Please bring back 3.01 dots!

ytareh
01-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Well it seems clear to me that a pair of 0.30 mgs (early 109s)or the single 0.50 in the Yaks is now a potent loadout whereas before they were pretty useless -especially the single 50-unless well under 150m range....
This I would think is more 'realistic'-then again I cant help recall the account in Len Deightons Battle of Britain book about the 4 Hurricanes that couldnt down a He111 despite using all their ammo....Still its more fun now -heck leave it as it is !!!

VFS-22_SPaRX
01-04-2007, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
"FORCED to fly more efficiently"??!

LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Think with your own brain man.Don`t take anything ppl say for granted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif


You can say that to ppl who play this game few months.Those who have more stick time with the game,know their stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Time at doing something doesn't qualify one as being proficient at it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

SPaRX

www.war-clouds.com (http://www.war-clouds.com)

"Why do they call it common sense when it is so uncommon!?!?"

George "Lefty" Whitman: "it is not the plane, it is not the pilot. It is the opportunity. The best pilot in the world is useless if he got surprised or caught in a bad position. "

WWMaxGunz
01-07-2007, 02:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Well it seems clear to me that a pair of 0.30 mgs (early 109s)or the single 0.50 in the Yaks is now a potent loadout whereas before they were pretty useless -especially the single 50-unless well under 150m range....
This I would think is more 'realistic'-then again I cant help recall the account in Len Deightons Battle of Britain book about the 4 Hurricanes that couldnt down a He111 despite using all their ammo....Still its more fun now -heck leave it as it is !!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you better able to hold your guns on target now?

WOLFMondo
01-07-2007, 02:33 AM
Dunno whats changed but I like this current global FM. heavier planes seem to keep energy better, this is across the board, not just a few planes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!