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View Full Version : Think about this for a second guys....



Bearcat99
10-29-2004, 06:46 PM
This community is very special. Sure we have our very own collection of @sshats,@sscats, braniacs,insomniacs,egomaniacs,and just plain maniacs. But we are special.... Special in the sense that:

We are a community that shares a passion that when you look at it, it goes extremely deep and is very multifaceted. How many FPS fans really GAS about the technical specs on thier laser cannons? Or have a context to place it in other than pure fantasy? Not all of us but many of us and I would dare to say most of us (those that aren't are in transition http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) share a passion not only for the historical aspect of what we are doing but the technical aspect as well and most of us are almost fanatical about accuracy. We would rather have an accurate sim rather than one that enabledus to do our own thing. For many of us the accuracy is our thing. We cover a very wide swath of humanity from all over the globe.

We are single,programmers,married,technicians,young,lawye rs,old,doctors,veterans,artists,black,active duty,white,teachers,yellow,parents,red,mechanics,b rown,salespeople,tall,scholars,short,philosophers, fat,financially secure,retired,living day to day,religious,students,spiritual,atheist,political ,hedonistic,male female, etc. etc. etc.
We come together here on this and other forums-but for us mostly here- and on Hyperlobby and UBI to indulge our common passion for aviation,gaming and history.....(there's just something about those props http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif).... and we are all, for the most part, extremely IN TO IT. Look at all the "PF sighted "<span class="ev_code_RED">insert locale here</span>" posts.

While there are some casual simmers among us, most of us are die hard simmers....and though we may dabble in other products and play in other genres simming is our primary mode of gaming. It is our desire for the closest thing we can get to perfection that has brought us here to IL2. That's where it all started. Most of us started out in some other sim if for no other reason that there was indeed a time before IL2. When sims were games and we had no idea what was possible and the things we silently wished for in our heart of hearts, for some of us our childhood fantasies, had not been realized or solidified in our mind's eye, yet the passion for the warbirds was there so we took what we had and made the best of it. <span class="ev_code_BLUE">Then came IL2</span>. For many of us it was a whole nother ball game from that point on. That makes us special.... not better, or more..... I don't know... savvy than other gamers... but special. Like fighter pilots were special. Most other gamers could not just pop in and take off and do what most of us do everyday in their first, second, or even 10th attempt. If we could walk in the virtual world there would be that swagger..... Some of us have it anyway. But that alone isn't what makes us special.

The OTHER, more important thing is this......
We have a unique relationship with the developer of the product that we have become enamored with and his staff, even if we don't know all of their names, we know them in our minds as Oleg & 1C and they know us as those jerks on the forum, or our valued customers, or by our screen names, or the ones who buy and appreciate our work and.....not unimportant.....<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">fellow simmers</span>.

That is unique. That is special. Most gamers have no clue and really don't give a hoot about who the developers of thier products are..... when's the next one coming thats all they care about. We have people like that.. but a lot of us.. a whole lot of us know what we have and we share a certain amount of respect for the crew that has delivered to us the product that gets the job done. Some of us may cry and moan..... but the truth is... since IL2.... 1C sims get the job done.

It's a 2 way street too. Oleg is a simmer himself. Even if he doesnt get much time to actually fly anymore.... Oleg and crew are simmers.. like us. So they can relate. They aren't just "gamers" making games.

I wonder if PF would have been released as a multi install product if Oleg had not taken the time to <span class="ev_code_GREEN">ask us</span> what we wanted. Or would we have gotten the metric/English/KIAS speed bar. Or the raised seat view. Or the improved net code. Or the planes that we have..... or even..... a Pacific sim. If Oleg hadn't asked and then listened to us. To me.... that signifies relationship. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS COMMUNITY SPECIAL. We have a <span class="ev_code_PURPLE">relationship</span> with the developer of our product of choice that goes beyond the usual "I make you buy" type of deal. Way beyond. It's a two way street.

By making this product (or these products I should say)-and don't get me wrong.. I'm sure Oleg's intention wasnt to create a common community when he decided to make IL2- Oleg has actually created the platform where real friendships have been made and bonds have been forged. I don't know if I'm alone in this or not-maybe it's just me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif- but..... when I am not flying I miss it. I miss my squadmates. I miss some of the shenanigans that go on in here and when I am away I miss the people..... just as surely as if you guys were all down at the local bar..... and you all knew my name. It is wierd. Wierd but really relly cool.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif.

Now I know, I know..... Someone will say get a life man. I have a life. A very good, full, and love filled life. I have a beautiful wife, kids that love and respect me from 7 to 27, grandkids that love and respect me, great parents, a job that pays the bills and that I can tolerate going to every day, I can still feed myself and wipe my own behind, I have my own home etc. etc. etc.... and.... I have a hobby... that ROCKS THE HOUSE!!!!
I fly online with a GREAT bunch of guys in a great community of like minded souls using a product where... the developer and his team actually listen.. and respond. I get to fullfill my childhood fantasy of flying above the clouds in my P-51 on my way to virtual adventure... and when it's all said and done. I can go upstairs and snuggle up to my voluptuous beloved Mamabear and get all the reward I need for a job well done.


Hey guys.... bear with me ... I had the week from HELL minus the flames, I'm just glad it's over and I'm just counting my blessings and thinking out loud with my fingers. When I count my blessings.... being able to have the life I have with the liesure time to do what I do and the means to pull it off. I just have to give thanks to my maker because it could have been way different.

SeaFireLIV
10-29-2004, 07:01 PM
What can I say, Bearcat. Your words bring a virtual tear to my eye *sniff*... I kinda hate to say it, but NEVER has a `game` (and I`ve played plenty over the years), had such a lasting effect on me and what I do... It`s kinda strange... I mean I wouldn`t have even started drawing WWII aircraft if it hadn`t been for this simulation - That`s more significant for me than a lot of people realise.

We`re gonna have to take your words above, Bearcat, and have them framed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. Amazing message.

(and I gotta find out how you guys do all that colour lettering stuff! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif)

Bearcat99
10-29-2004, 07:18 PM
Look at the paint pallette next to the smileys when you post.

Stiglr
10-29-2004, 08:59 PM
Sorry, but I think you sugarcoat it much too much.

Oleg *used* to be the guy that'd really listen to you. Back when IL-2 was released, you didn't need to make 25 bitter posts about things like the muzzle flash for it to get fixed. And it was done above board then: they'd announce they'd seen some evidence to the contrary and make the change. With muzzle flash, it was "quietly" done and left for people to discover. Not much of a mea culpa after all the excuses and explanations for why it stayed such a cartoon effect as long as it did.

And, it seems as time goes on, there are more and more errors, instead of less and less. The only thing that stays at a consistently high level is, yep, you guessed it: eye candy. It seems 1C will always err (and err badly) on the side of eye candy. The interviews Oleg made where he wearily admitted making changes not based on fact, but on "giving people what they want" certainly doesn't do much to inspire confidence in anything the team puts out. And the "anti-gravity" release of AEP 1.0, the constant FM changes of certain highly suspect flight models, etc. also do not inspire confidence.

Meanwhile, most in our community eat it up like ice cream. We have in our midst a large contingent of people who seemingly lack a shred of independent thought. They're adept with all sorts of challenges and tactics to try and change or shift the subject away from the many gaffes, mistakes, er, politicized modeling, etc., and their attitude is pretty much, "How dare you challenge the mighty Oleg??" Well, because his team makes a lot of mistakes, and is seemingly not above political numbertweaking, that's why.

I don't doubt that there are a lot of passionate people around this forum, but "hardcore simmers"? Hardly. The % of Wonder Woman view games I see running to near capacity on HyperLobby leads me to think we've got a lot of guys who wouldn't know more than about 3 of their "favorite" planes. They think nothing of foisting planes on the Eastern Front that clearly don't belong there, and have seemingly no will to create anything historical (or any knowledge to do that, either). Just stupid, mindless fun starring their favorite overmodelled mount.

I'm sorry, I'm not even close to breaking out a Bud Light, bursting into tears and sobbing, "I love you, man" over this series.

Bearcat99
10-29-2004, 10:19 PM
Well Stig thats you.. I see it differently. There is always room for improvement but I guess we just look at things differently. I think this line of sims is ground breaking and I dont know of a better one inspite of its flaws. To me a hardcore simmer is not one who insists on a locked cockpit with no aids and ultrahard flight models and everyone else is some lame wanna be. To me a hardcore simmer is someone who takes the time to enjoy his simming and enjoy it as often as he can however hi=e likes it. He knows the history behind the planes in his sim somewhat and he is willing to spend a few extra dollars where he can and sometimes making sacrifices to upgrade his rig in order to run it. He will wait patiently for the release of his sim of choice and when he gets it he will take the time to explore it. He will obtain the necessary hardware to maximize his enjoyment of his sim and on occaision he will be known to put other things on the back burner to do his sim thing. I consider myself a hardcore simmer. Im no elitist and I dont judge other people by how they fly.. although I do have my personal preferences as far as settings go I am more than willing to compromise on those settings when other people whom I respect and whose company I enjoy are flying with me. I keep my preferred settings to myself basically and occaisionally when the ones I fly with are willing to go that route, I host with those settings. I understand that this is a simulation and I can still appreciate the level of attention given by 1C to this product inspite of so many petty small minded people who think they have all the answers and have a broom so far up thier butts they can sweep the floor by turning thier heads, making all kinds of totally unneccessary character insults and going ballistic over what is essentially the developers perogative to use the information at his disposal to create the best product he thinks he can make. The growth of the sim and the diversity of the community... read that as more @sshoiles in the mix...... make it more likely that 1C will not be able to fix everything. Not to mention the fact that as good as the line is it has basically been squeezed just about to it's limit. The thing that really kills me, cracks me up actually is that the people who are crying and moaning the loudest, whining and complaining, having "legitimate" gripes about the product? LMAO.... they are still right there inspite of it's shortcomings because warts and all it is still the best WW2 sim series to date.

I dont know. Maybe it's because I am just from a different generation. Maybe the younger guys.. and by younger I mean 30 and under.... are just so used to the quality of whats out here today that it is hard for them to really "get it". I remember pong very well... so for me.. and I have been into warbirds a long time.... this sim is a dream come true.

WUAF_Badsight
10-30-2004, 12:21 AM
Stigler . . .. . can it about the MF already

when its this good , the only response is "cool !"

biggs222
10-30-2004, 12:41 AM
Stiglr is just mad cause thats one less thing he can b!tch about. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

carguy_
10-30-2004, 03:45 AM
It looks like Stiglr is focused on the flaws which leads to much frustration.

I myself am not happy about Me109 slowly closing on to the La7 FM but I always try to view the 1C sim series as a whole - maps,historical accuracy( landing lights extending with gear sic!),features,graphics and all the fun I get from those.Padlock and no cockpit coops I stay out of,period.

And yeah I can honestly say that

1.The sim keeps getting better and better starting from "IL2 Sturmovik".

2.I have never been dissapointed about the game.

The best thing is that I can always hope that things get fixed...and they actually do get fixed.

Thumbs up!

DuxCorvan
10-30-2004, 07:56 AM
Bearcat, I tried to think about that for a second, but I couldn't. In fact it took me several seconds to think about it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

So Oleg has finally given you that Rolex, mmmm? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NegativeGee
10-30-2004, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I dont know. Maybe it's because I am just from a different generation. Maybe the younger guys.. and by younger I mean 30 and under.... are just so used to the quality of whats out here today that it is hard for them to really "get it". I remember pong very well... so for me.. and I have been into warbirds a long time.... this sim is a dream come true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot really agree with you there Bear. Its not someones age (I'm 29) but outlook that matters. Is a person able to appreciate what they have (IL-2 series for example) or do they get hung up on what is wrong with it (the limitations/flaws in the IL-2 series).

I see Stilgr being critical of the effort devoted to "eye candy" in Oleg's games but I think that is an unjustified criticism, at least in itself. Great visuals are something that is very important in any game that tries to make a real world perspective. Our main sense, by far, is eyesight. It seems only appropriate that IL-2 devotes a great deal to doing this well. As to the dubious flight models I suppose we get into the realm of personal technical opinion more and more...

In the end though, it is a great product that I've got a great mileage out off. I don't much care for playing against anonymous online opponents much, so I'm less bothered by some of the issues that become so heated here. Offline and against friends I know these things are rarely a trouble for me.

Its not perfect, but for something I have paid less than I have on going to the cinema since IL-2 came out I'll accept that happily- and a hope of something better in the future (plus IL-2 never makes you go see romantic comedies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif).

Stiglr
10-30-2004, 11:05 AM
Well, Bearcat, we agree somewhat on what constitutes a "serious simmer"... to me, it's not about an "ultra hard FM", just one that's reasonably accurate, and not dumbed down for the attention deficit. In that respect, the IL-2 franchise is moving backwards. We're getting more planes, it's true, but they're loaded with more mistakes than the earlier ones, and they change seemingly at whim. Whatever happened to "get it pretty close to right the first time"?

And the other half of that is, if our "hard core sim freaks" knew anything about history or the planes, they'd see the inaccuracies and *cough* politicized modeling *cough* for what it is, and they'd demand a greater degree of fidelity.

I think the community itself is pretty good, all things considered. But, I just can't sit still and hear this rosy "we're all in this perfect world together" stuff, when there is so much room for improvement.

Bearcat99
10-30-2004, 12:34 PM
OK......

ThreeCrow
10-30-2004, 12:40 PM
The age old debate of "Is the glass half full or is the glass half empty" is a null arguement if the level of the wine is at three quarters.

"Flying" in Il2 is, I think, comparable to great sex... it is mostly a mental exercize. The mental part is the degree of immersion. In this wonderful Il2 sim the immersion is greatly enhanced by the knowing of the desperate circumstances under which the WW2 air war was waged. The long odds, the missed opportunities, the fighter cover that didn't show up on time..... all of this is, in one way or another, to be experienced in Il2.

I am in great anticipation of Pacific Fighters because I grew up reading (and hearing stories)of that theater of operations. In 1944, when I was born, my father worked for Douglass Aircraft at El Segundo, my mother was polishing lenses at a small optical company with a government contract, my mother's brother was a gunner on a 15th Air Force Liberator in Italy, a cousin flew the "Hump" out of Karachi. When my brother enlisted in '43 he tried first with the Army Air Corps but was advised that he would have a better chance to fly with the Navy. That was promising until the Navy found out that he was color blind and he wound up a SeaBee on Guam. My turn came in 1965 but the Navy figured (correctly) that I lacked the absolute confidence required of pilots and I spent my part of the war on the Hornet's flight deck launching S2Fs on "Yankee Station" as part of the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club.

So, while I anticipate the arrival (any day now) of Pacific Fighters, I have been formulating the specifics of my "new" Naval career. I figure to start with land based Brewsters in a virtual Pensacola.... work my way up to SBD carrier ops. That's what my brother would have done.... and the virtual pilot will have his name.

Immersion.

WWMaxGunz
10-30-2004, 01:10 PM
Good sentiments Bearcat and I can agree with the gist of it. But yer a bit new to
the scene in some ways. The community existed since long ago, over 10 years ago
when it was pay the servers to play and more dedicated fans than usual now did.
The community has had definite ideas of what it wants even if they're not all the
same. The community has more grognards with loads of their own data than most,
I'd say the hard core wargamers may or may not outdo the flight simmers, I dunno.
And as for developers communicating, coordinating and cooperating with the
community... it's not new with IL2 but still as always, very appreciated. You
should know these things, okay?

IMHO people don't expect perfect. It's just that so many don't know where to draw
any kind of lines. It would help some if 1C was more into letting us know in a
solid sense of where they are and here I believe that it's partly a language gap
as well as the knowledge gap between developers and players. Far as I can tell,
Oleg isn't limited to books for answers and trying to explain where he gets his
answers would require too much explanation, really educating people in about
three different disciplines of aeronautics, programming and warfare. Good luck!
The main problem I think has been making something that works realistically and
still comes close to historical performance figures when the input data for the
models is not completely facts as they were, the historic figures vary and there
is no way to code for both handling and performance in the time scales that the
customers or 95% of them can live with.

We will get what we get and it's not done till the last patch anyway. Then the
fat lady with the helmet can sing, the king is dead, long live the king.

Users shouldn't complain about the code they get. They are lucky to get anything
at all. -- from the Real Programmers Joke Sheet circa the late 70's that I know
of.


Neal

NorrisMcWhirter
10-30-2004, 01:12 PM
Hi,

Bearcat: Any developer in a niche market has to listen to it's punters in order to survive. If you look at the volume of suggestions made, I suspect it's a relatively small percentage that are taken up. It's good that any are taken up, I know, but you can see my point.

Everyone knows that 1C have supported this game extremely well in comparision to other developers in the arena and hats off to them for that. But, you can't expect everyone to fawn sycophantically when there are clearly problems and what amounts to a beta release being sold. After all, if we all said, 'it's the best thing since sliced bread, Oleg', and never complained or made suggestions then nothing would ever be improved or fixed.

We all respect what effort 1C have put in to get the sim where it is but stiglr is right; things have gone backwards in some respects, possibly to capture a larger market by approaching an overlap with 'sims' offering 'lower levels of realism'..and that's a shame because everyone here knows where the game started out from and, if things carry on as they are, where it might be heading.

I've no doubt that the patch wasn't ready when the game was released but I also think this is a good thing because 1C were always going to try to chuck what is missing + a few extra goodies (possibly the suggestions made since the release) to pacify the community. Have to wait and see on that one.

Cheers,
Norris

Stiglr
10-30-2004, 01:40 PM
I concur with those last two posts.

I'm not saying this is terrible by any means. Only that it's not all hunky dory, either.

The more we slather honey over it, and wax rhapsodic, when we should expect and receive much more (or at least much more accurate), the less we can ever expect to come in the future.

We shouldn't "just accept sh*it and like it". And we do get our share of turds with this franchise.

Bearcat99
10-30-2004, 03:07 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif OK... I think some of you may be missing my point.. or maybe I am just in the dark... but as far as I know for better or worse.. not to many sim developers are still listening to thier clientel. We have BoB on the horizon.. who knows what that will be like. Im not naive enough to think that its all rosey and perfect... but it's the best WW2 franchise I know of and the addition of PF IMO just brings it to another level. If MS had put half as much interaction into any of its sims who knows what we might have. To me.. this is special and I have yet to meet anyone except actual pilots who can hop in one of these planes on my PC and just take off fly around, do some barrel rolls and esses and land without breaking gear, bending props or blowing up. I have had a lot of my friends who are "gamers" try... even nephews and son inlaws... To me the product though not perfect... it cant be really... it is pert near perfect and I just wonder considering the differing information available and in some cases the lack of any real AC or info to go by.... how some of us can be so sure that 1C got it wrong.. to the point where they will flame them and act like it's a crime punishable by a fine for fraud. We have what we have and there isnt anything better out there even though what we have could be better.

Besides like I said.... it's just my opinion and I was feeling all warm and fuzzy inside... I'm not so warm and fuzzy anymoe.... that wore off this morning... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif but I still feel glad that I have a 3 front sim where I can indulge myself in with pretty decent FMs,DMs,sound and graphics... and a pretty decent bunch of yahoos to go along with it... even if some of them are in need of some Kava Kava tea with a St. Johns chaser.. I just try to have a positive outlook on things.

BSS_CUDA
10-30-2004, 03:56 PM
there was a time when I was "upset" with this sim but as time went on I realized that it wasnt the sim it was my skills. when I started focusing on my flying and not whinning about the "UBER MK108's" and so on I started regularly coming out on top, even in the P-38 I can hold my own against most 109 pilots. its just learning your plane and your skills, flying to those limits and not flying to your opponents. this is a GREAT sim trust me I used to fly CFS, its a night and day comparison, Thx Oleg and the 1c crew

Stiglr
10-30-2004, 04:01 PM
Well, I'd say WWIIOL and Targetware both have pretty good track records of "listening to their customers", so certainly the IL-2 franchise has no monopoly there.

Microsoft barely counts as a sim source anyway. They're like the Coors beer of flight sims. Big name, big money behind it and absolutely NO flavor or quality.

As for "inability for newbs to just takeoff and fly around", that applies to all but the most arcade titles.

As for how can we be so sure that 1c got it wrong, well, the numbers are there to differ with the modeling...and the number of changes 1c has made itself shows how off they have been, are, and continue to be.

I'm not trying to burst yer bubble, honest I'm not, but I'm just poking a finger down my throat though, reading all this "blue sky and sunshine" stuff for such a mediocre (if you factor anything BUT eye candy) sim.

JG14_Josf
10-30-2004, 05:51 PM
Bearcat99,

Thanks for the post.

This game remains on the top of my list. It is the creation of people that appreciate similar interests. It is a boyhood dream come true and an old man's favorite past time.

The game is a big step toward greater accuracy in simulating WWII Air Combat and it is a product that appears to generate enough revenue to finance futher development.

As far as loyalty goes, mine stops where the accuracy ends. As soon as a more accurate product hits the shelves there is where my money will go, because my loyalty goes to the developers who represent my interests the best i.e. accurate WWII combat simulation. So far this product remains on top and on my hard drive.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Another%20Spit%20for%20Hertt.jpg

Bearcat99
10-30-2004, 06:01 PM
Right on........... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Luftwaffe_109
10-30-2004, 06:37 PM
I nominate Bearcat99 as official spiritual guru of the boards, lol.

ThreeCrow
10-31-2004, 12:42 AM
Ommm.... not gonna object to that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KG26_Alpha
10-31-2004, 04:32 AM
This is a joke thread right ????

HerrGraf
10-31-2004, 11:38 AM
Hey Bearcat, do you feel about ten pounds lighter after getting all that off your chest?
I wouldn't worry what the naysayers say (even if they do raise valid points). I have personally have watched the game progress from the original Il2. I do not fly online so many of the arguements are invalid to me, however I find the extent that the game can be ramped up or down to suit each individual needs to be of interest. To what extent that the FM are "real" or not I can not say as I have never flown a real one of these aircraft. One also has to take into consideration the limitations of the computer system that FB is being run on, and how much information can it process in the name of reality and still seem to run without studdering hanging up or other glitches that ruin one perception of what is happening in the program. Personally if I an going to spend a lot of money on something to entertain myself with than I will purchase a new motorcycle to blast through the local mountains with. (Think of this sim, but with real consequences.)
Ah butI digress.
I don't have the experience to compare this sim with much else on the market, but I would expect that if I were to go onto other websites that the sentiments held there would somewhat mirror your own. The fact that you played a lot of other flight sims before this one tells me that your opinion is better informed than what someone of my small experience can put forth. However, not all play this game/sim for the same reasons, so do beware when making generalizations.
I most certainly agree with you about the extent of the world wide community that comes to these forums. It is very diverse and interesting. I also feel that I know some of these people personally through reading their many posts. I do consider them to be friends even if we have never met.
If you ever get into Whittier for some refresher training, stop into the warehouse and look me up.



Learn to take off those blinders and see everything, not just that narrow view with which you are used to looking!