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AllorNothing117
01-16-2009, 06:08 AM
Hello,

I fly the P-38 J against the a6m5(a) Zero. I have made a few posts about this before and I'm still getting hammered. I would really appreciate some help as I've been at this for about 6 Months and I still can't beat them. More specifically...

- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage

As I mentioned before I've made a few posts about this and I'm still getting nowhere. I'd really appreciate help but please don't say things like... You need to be faster, he can out-turn you, use Boom and Zoom tactics. I get that. I've been trying to do that but I still get beaten. I find that if I try to keep my speed up he ends up higher than me. And if I try pure BnZ looping over and rolling at the top then I end up going very slow and each time I do that I bleed off more and more speed, and then he ends up faster than, and if he gets behind me I'm screwed. I appreciate that allot of this is to with the AI being incredibly good at flying. Regardless of skill level. But everyone on this Forum seems to say things like "The P-38 should eat Zeros for breakfast!" Only, o.k., but offline against A.I.? Really? I'd love it for people to try it. I think my Kill to death ratio is probably about 4:6...

To conclude... HELP!

AllorNothing117
01-16-2009, 06:08 AM
Hello,

I fly the P-38 J against the a6m5(a) Zero. I have made a few posts about this before and I'm still getting hammered. I would really appreciate some help as I've been at this for about 6 Months and I still can't beat them. More specifically...

- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage

As I mentioned before I've made a few posts about this and I'm still getting nowhere. I'd really appreciate help but please don't say things like... You need to be faster, he can out-turn you, use Boom and Zoom tactics. I get that. I've been trying to do that but I still get beaten. I find that if I try to keep my speed up he ends up higher than me. And if I try pure BnZ looping over and rolling at the top then I end up going very slow and each time I do that I bleed off more and more speed, and then he ends up faster than, and if he gets behind me I'm screwed. I appreciate that allot of this is to with the AI being incredibly good at flying. Regardless of skill level. But everyone on this Forum seems to say things like "The P-38 should eat Zeros for breakfast!" Only, o.k., but offline against A.I.? Really? I'd love it for people to try it. I think my Kill to death ratio is probably about 4:6...

To conclude... HELP!

Bremspropeller
01-16-2009, 06:17 AM
Your mistake is trying to learn "appropriate" tactics agains the AI.

The AI pretty much fecks up the game for me, as I don't fly online anymore.
Trying the game out for a spin usually gets me shaking my head in frustration and swearing about that godda*n AI.

The point is, the AI is always sorting out a function of several parameters.
Therefore, it always knows the best power-setting, the best radaitor-setting and anything else for every single moment of flight.
The AI is essentially always max-performing the airplane.

The AI also doesn't have blackout- or flutter-limits.
The AI can see through clouds.
The AI can see through it's own aircraft.

You can't surprise the AI.

In short: the AI is a cheating lil fecker.


If you really want to learn stuff, you'd better go and fly online. It's so much more fun and such a better place to learn about tactics and aircraft-performance.

I can only give you that advise.
Flying online, maybe even in a squad just makes so much more of this game.


If you still prefer to fly offline, I'd recommend trying to figure out the AI's habits.
At best, you'd take an even match-up, such as a Yak-1b vs. Bf109F-4 or G-2.
That's gonna teach you how the AI works and the kinds of tricks and maneuvers the AI usually does at which time.

Once you're getting behind that, you'll find the AI to be not only a cheating lil fecker, but to be a stupid cheating lil fecker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Lt_Letum
01-16-2009, 06:31 AM
Don't turn unless you can do so without the enemy getting with in 1Km of you.
It's as simple as that if you are in a faster plane and you have plenty of time.

AllorNothing117
01-16-2009, 06:31 AM
I hear you. I wish I could fly online but I'm not aloud http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I think what you said is spot on and I'm sure I'd lear allot more flying against a plane that isn't always at max preformance. But for nw I have to settle for offline http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

WholeHawg
01-16-2009, 06:54 AM
The problem I used to have when I was starting out was similar to yours.... 1v1 and I get smoked every time.
If I were you I would make 16 v 16 fights or get UQMG and make 40 v 40 fights. That way you're in a target rich invironment.

In a 1 v 1 your pretty much have to violate the no turning rule or be bored to tears. Then when you turn, you get shot.

When I fight online, if I am flying Red (American) Vs Japaneese I wont mix it up 1 v 1 with any enemy unless I have an advantage. Energy, suprise or greater numbers to do so results in me becoming a smoking hole.

Besides if your goal is to simulate a real engagement your probabaly not going to be flying alone. You would have a wingman.

Which brings us to AI wingmen, they are close to useless. However if you learn how their logic is programmed you can get them to help a bit.

Rule 1 They wont help you until your get shot at by a bad guy.

Rule 2 AI bad guys cant seem to hit you from the 6 O'clock position if your stay in a gentle horizontal turn, at least this has been my observation after endless hours of fights with AI enemy.

So if you get a bad guy on your six just kick over to about 15-20deg angle of bank and keep a flat turn going, AI will shoot and miss. Wingman will move in to help.

And the hardest thing to do is DONT follow them to the deck. AI bad guys have about 3 tricks in their bag to get away from you and two of them are to dive to the deck. If they pitch down more then 45 deg, I just let them go, flatten out and wait, as soon as I break off he will pitch back up and I still have all my energy perched above him. At this point I can pretty much do whatever I like, re-engage or move to teh next target at my altitiude. Usually I take this opprotunity to look for his wingman!

Just a few tips, hope it helps.

Good luck!

Vanderstok
01-16-2009, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vanderstok:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As WholeHawg already mentioned: it's possible to win in this kind of scenario, but it can get pretty boring...
In this case, you start with an advantage and you should dive on the zero and destroy him in the first pass. It will probably a head-on (which is never recommended!) but since the AI is "regular" he will not be very good at head on passes I think.

If you miss the first pass you should break-off and head for home (if this was for real) or use your superior speed to get enough distance between you and the zero, turn towards him and have another go. Since you have your guns close to the centerline you can shoot pretty accurate and from long range as well.

If you want to do real boom 'n zoom training you should set up a mission in FMB where you have more altitude advantage. In the QMB the altitude "advantage" usually isn't enough because the target is too far away. By the time you meet the Zero he has probably already reached your altitude... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PikeBishop
01-16-2009, 07:33 AM
Dear All,
The point here is that the key to any engagement is to spot the enemy well before you get too close to the AI causing it to react or before a human opponent spots you. Do you have TIR......if you don't it is much harder to spot your enemy and keep your eyes on him all the time. Once you spot him and are above him you must try to hit and damage him in the first pass. If you miss just zoom up and reposition again...DO NOT be tempted to follow him and bleed off all your speed. It can be boring this way compared to a turning fight but the Zero will win at that every time. To lose him try diving and rolling away at speeds at or above 300mph then pulling up again at a safe margin. Wit regard to the AI being able to tolerate more 'g' that you, just remember that when he pulls a turn or pulls up sharply you are always having to pull more 'g' because your response is always delayed so more 'g' is necessary to keep with him. Advanced flyers know that there is no point trying to manoeuvre behind him.....the best way being to spot him, position yourself, dive on him, fire, zoom past and up........and then come around again for another pass. It is true that over time the difference in height will be diminished as each time you have a little less energy to play with, so giving the Zero the edge again, but by that time he should be dead.
regards,
SLP

Vanderstok
01-16-2009, 07:38 AM
I think the key issue here is that when you choose "advantage" in the QMB, you just do not get the ideal starting position to do a proper boom 'n zoom attack. The difference in altitude and speed is just not enough once you meet your opponent! So, you can't really zoom up after the initial attack in the P-38 and the Zero probably has a much better rate-of-climb and will very quickly be on your six...

LEBillfish
01-16-2009, 07:48 AM
Listed a number of points before that should of made you virtually untouchable (think it was you, may of been another asking for similar help)..........Anywho.....

It's time you take the leap to learn in a way that real pilots did not have as an option........Time you start flying the A6M5a against P38's and find out what the zero can do, yet see how P-38's should be flown.

Do that for a while and you'll have a better grasp of flying P38's vs. Zero's.

K2

M_Gunz
01-16-2009, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
And if I try pure BnZ looping over and rolling at the top then I end up going very slow and each time I do that I bleed off more and more speed, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It almost sounds like you're trying to stay close and never extend or run when your speed drops.
You're not tied to him and you don't have to shoot him down.
QM missions start slow and not far apart as well, your 'advantage' isn't really since you don't get to speed up to your best before
there he is at his best which is much slower.

You have a sword and he has a knife, why choose to fight in a phone booth?

JtD
01-16-2009, 10:30 AM
If you posted a track we wouldn't need to guess your mistakes.

Ba5tard5word
01-16-2009, 10:51 AM
Think of your P-38 as a hot rod that is very fast but isn't good at quick turns. Try and keep your speed up and buzz him over and over again trying to hit him as you pass him, if he's behind you then keep your nose down and you'll easily outrun him and avoid being forced into a turn fight where you'll get anhilated.

A Zero's top speed is like 420-450 kph at sea level, and a P-38 is like 530, which is quite a bit more.

I made a mission recently where I was flying Tempests, which can easily hit 600kph, against Ki-61's, which can barely reach 490kph but are very maneuverable. Getting into a turn battle with them was pointless, the only way to defeat them was to keep up speed and zoom up behind them and hit them before they started looping and diving all over the place. Hit and run, man.

Player_43
01-16-2009, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The AI also doesn't have blackout- or flutter-limits.
The AI can see through clouds.
The AI can see through it's own aircraft.

You can't surprise the AI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In these sentenses, if you replace AI by Chuck Yearer, it's still correct.

Dustysquareback
01-16-2009, 11:51 AM
1v1 is for dying. No sane p-38 pilot would do anything but run faced with a hostile fighter and no wingman.

At least try 4 v 4

gorillasika
01-16-2009, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heya Allornothing,

I gave this scenario a try as I haven't played for a while.
So here's my experience step by step:
- Open a Velkopopovicky Kozel dark (only if youre over 18). In fact water is more healthy anyway.
- Start a shallow climb the moment you enter the cockpit with throttle 110% (it won't overheat in a while).
- Manouver over the enemy
- When he's under you, start trimming your nose up, get a little bit higher, but don't stall.
- Turn the nose down and dive after him, put flaps to combat.
- Flaps to normal before he's in front of you.
- Start shooting early, you have plenty of ammo, as this is 1 vs 1.
- If you don't down him with the first pass, climb and dive on him again. In my experience, you have two safe passes before you bleed too much energy.
- Watch him go down.
- Take a sip of your... hmm water.
- Strafe the enemy airfield for pleasure and land there for their annoyance. But only if you remembered to put the AAA off before starting the misson.

I tried this with average, veteran and ace enemies. The first two went down quick, but the ace I didn't manage to shoot with two passes, because I had drunk a little bit too much of my ...water, so it was time to head towards home airfield with full speed. Remember to trim the plane.
Over the airfield I had extended enough so I turned and decided to do a head to head. This is not adviced, but I wanted to down the bugger. On head to head start to fire early, before the enemy, you have plenty of ammo and the p-38 is very accurate. Again take a sip of your drink as the zero is spiraling down.

Hope this helps, now where's my water...

TS_Sancho
01-16-2009, 01:09 PM
Salutations AllorNothing. My guess is you are forcing the fight. Learn to be comfortable with using your superior speed to extend and climb to an advantage then engage your opponent using the 38's superior energy and control at high speed. I just flew 3 sorties using your settings.2 at 5000 meters and 1 at 1000.Got kills without a scratch on all 3.My high speed deflection sucks as well so all 3 kills were made by manuevering onto the zeros 5 to 7.Its just a matter of practice and discipline.
Its too bad you cant talk your folks into a little hyperlobby time.The folks online will teach you more in a day than you'll learn in a month vs. AI.
Take Billfish's advice to heart as well, ditch the 38 for the zero for a bit.It should be a very educational experience in what energy management is really about.Good luck.

DKoor
01-16-2009, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
Hello,

I fly the P-38 J against the a6m5(a) Zero. I have made a few posts about this before and I'm still getting hammered. I would really appreciate some help as I've been at this for about 6 Months and I still can't beat them. More specifically...

- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage

As I mentioned before I've made a few posts about this and I'm still getting nowhere. I'd really appreciate help but please don't say things like... You need to be faster, he can out-turn you, use Boom and Zoom tactics. I get that. I've been trying to do that but I still get beaten. I find that if I try to keep my speed up he ends up higher than me. And if I try pure BnZ looping over and rolling at the top then I end up going very slow and each time I do that I bleed off more and more speed, and then he ends up faster than, and if he gets behind me I'm screwed. I appreciate that allot of this is to with the AI being incredibly good at flying. Regardless of skill level. But everyone on this Forum seems to say things like "The P-38 should eat Zeros for breakfast!" Only, o.k., but offline against A.I.? Really? I'd love it for people to try it. I think my Kill to death ratio is probably about 4:6...

To conclude... HELP! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, if you fly online vs good human players, if you employ your energy tactic well they shouldn't be able to shot you down.
If you employ same tactic vs average Ai they will shot you down.
What's wrong with that picture?
Simple: Ai cheats on you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
For more info just how, you can check out my IL2 page track named Ai cheat pack (several kind of cheats really, speed, DM etc. etc.).


Anyhow...
I have a nice track which can still show you that it's possible to fight IL2 Ai at altitude http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

http://www.esnips.com/doc/edce...Koor51D-vs-6xJPN-408 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/edce8046-80a2-4a49-8920-da3427c0b5c0/DKoor51D-vs-6xJPN-408)
...track shows me flying P-51 vs 4 Ki-84s and 2 A6Ms on ace skill settings on realistic difficulty.
It's almost one hour long track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Player_43
01-16-2009, 02:54 PM
In a 1vs1 combat, the P38 cannot (of course) enter a turn fight with a zero, so the only option left is to use it's superior power and speed to Z&B. This should work for AI with a little practice, but if you try this online, it might be more difficult as your opponent expects you to use that technique.

As far as real world is concerned, there was no df 1vs1 between P38 and zeros but rather group attacks which are more efficient against underpowered planes like the A6M (Z&B is much more difficult to avoid if the opponent attacks with coordination)

Ba5tard5word
01-16-2009, 03:02 PM
Wingmen are definitely useful because at the very least they will distract your opponents, and if they are covering you they will automatically attack any enemy that gets on your tail.

If the AI skill level is the same for your allies and for your enemies, your allies should have a 50/50 chance of killing an enemy, and if they don't then again they provide distraction.

crucislancer
01-16-2009, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It's time you take the leap to learn in a way that real pilots did not have as an option........Time you start flying the A6M5a against P38's and find out what the zero can do, yet see how P-38's should be flown.

Do that for a while and you'll have a better grasp of flying P38's vs. Zero's.

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

Very helpful advice.

Know your plane and know the enemy's plane.

norton1974
01-16-2009, 10:23 PM
allornothing
I just tried your scenerio and the only way I could win the fight was to fly past the zero and gain some distance. Then turn and do a head on pass and repeat if needed.
Normally I never do head on passes but in this scenerio it seems the only way to succeed.
I think that a campaign or mission is a better way of learning or practicing tactics than the QMB.

Ba5tard5word
01-16-2009, 10:27 PM
Hmm well I just tried 4 P-38's versus 4 A6M5 Zeros....

It's definitely tricky. Basically, as with other very fast but not manueverable planes, you have to wait for the AI to get lazy and fly in a straight line, then zoom up to them and pounce. You have to be really good at aiming because you'll only have a small window to shoot them before they start diving and looping all around you, and a P-38 just can't win a turn battle against a Zero.

Basically keep your speed above 450kmh, don't get caught in turn battles, and just keep trying to catch the Zeros flying in a straight line, or when they fly straight upwards and stall out into a dive--this is always an easy kill, even on Veteran. The P-38 wingmen seem pretty lazy, just expect them to be distractions.

Treetop64
01-16-2009, 11:35 PM
Flying a P-38 against the Zero and winning is similar to how Jim Clark used to drive his gigantic Ford Galaxie against the smaller and nimbler Mini Coopers and Lotuses and beating them. (Yes, he actually raced Ford Galaxies when he wasn't racing the F1 Lotus, among other things.) He knew he had no chance of outbraking them into the corners, or following them to the apex. He did know that he had every chance of matching their pace from the apex, and certainly overpowered them down the following straight - if there was sufficient straightaway after the corner, that is.

The point is that he used the strengths of his mount to win, and did not try to play by the other guy's rules. If he did, he would have been toast every time. The same applies when flying the bigger and faster (much faster than the Zero in particular!) P-38 against the smaller and more nimble, but much slower Zero. As long as you stay faster than your opponent, YOU dictate the terms of the fight, no matter how much more maneuverable the oppopnent is.

However, you will have to employ relatively conservative tactics against the Zero; not attempting to match his turn rate and taking a LOT of time in setting up for your next run. And that is exactly what you are doing - running through him, not trying to get on his tail and follow him. That will get you hammered every time. Another thing you will need to know is that you need to be good at deflection shooting if you are going to stand a fair chance at hitting wht you are shooting at. One of the things about using BnZ tactics is that it forces you to use deflection shooting almost 100% of the time. Many times the opponent is obscured by the nose of your own aircraft, and you have to use a bit of instinct to guage when to fire, since you can't actually see him when you press the trigger. Getting proficient with this will only come with plenty of time, practise, and patience.

It takes considerably more practice to be good at using BnZ tactics aganst a TnB'er and winning, but once learned you can have a lot of fun in manipulating the fight! And, unless the guy you're facing is REALLY good, you'll either win or go home alive every time.

TS_Sancho
01-16-2009, 11:35 PM
If you havent already download IL2 compare
http://war.by-airforce.com/dow...il2compare-4.07.html (http://war.by-airforce.com/downloads/il2compare-4.07.html) and IL2 wingman plus a host of other great training utilities here http://www.332vfg.com/traing.html
Make special notice of the respective aircrafts optimal climb and turn speeds.You'll see that above 400 kph or so the zero no longer out turns or aout climbs your 38.
I commend you on your tenacity working to master your favorite ride.The 38 is an odd duck and is capable of being unbeatable in the hands of a pilot who has put the time in to master it.

Vanderstok
01-17-2009, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One of the things about using BnZ tactics is that it forces you to use deflection shooting almost 100% of the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with Treetop64 (and others for that matter). However, one of my gripes about this game is that the AI cannot be surprised (a major flaw!) and when online, F6 makes this also impossible on most servers. In real life BnZ wasn't always about deflection shooting because you would want to catch him unaware. This is how most of the airmen got killed in the war unfortenately...

doogerie
01-17-2009, 03:49 AM
the zero was faster more agial then the american plans so you can not out run them try to under run them get them on your tale and slow down so that they fly past you so now you are on there tale the zero had poor aromour so as soon as you get them lined up hit em with everything you got. i got this taktic from top gun so it might not work but it also used to work wehn i used to fly in CFS2 and 3 (also worked well in freespace 1&2) so try it

Player_43
01-17-2009, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by doogerie:
the zero was faster more agial then the american plans so you can not out run them try to under run them get them on your tale and slow down so that they fly past you so now you are on there tale the zero had poor aromour so as soon as you get them lined up hit em with everything you got. i got this taktic from top gun so it might not work but it also used to work wehn i used to fly in CFS2 and 3 (also worked well in freespace 1&2) so try it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very bad advice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Have you ever heard of stall speed or energy ?
The zero's stall speed is lower that the P38's so if you try that, You will stall before the zero gets in front of you, loosing precious energy and becoming an easy prey for a good turner.

doogerie
01-17-2009, 05:20 AM
true didn't think of that

Treetop64
01-17-2009, 10:44 AM
Getting fighting tactics from a hollywood movie or other games not so founded on high-fidelity flight modelling and physics is a bad idea, dood. Top Gun tactics, Ben Affleck Pearl Harbor Super-Zeroes. Very bad.

Listen to the guys here in this forum, doogerie. Most of us know what we are talking about. I personally can engage in a 1v2 or, preferably, 2v4 fight with AI Zeroes and can win every time. If flown CORRECTLY the P-38 can simply run away from the Zeroes, then turn and chose when to re-initiate the fight.

Which brings me to another point: You'll want to learn about the term "Energy Management", especially if you're trying to take on Zeroes in a P-38. Or an F-6. Or a P-51, especially.

horseback
01-17-2009, 12:11 PM
The rules for opposing ai are far different from those used against human opponents online or real life tactics.

Remember that the ai are your computer; they know exactly where you are relative to them at all times and exactly what your energy state and vector are, and shamelessly act on that information 90% of the time. I am convinced that at least at the Veteran level and above that they can plot a course behind your canopy frame 80% of the time, and the moment they are obscured by your nose or fuselage, they can and will change directions just as you pull the trigger.

You cannot sneak up on them unless they are in a 'return to base' routine or are locked on to another target. Average ai will start evasive maneuvering when you are almost exactly 400m away and have your nose pointed in their direction; you need to be overhauling them at high speed and have your needle and ball centered and get hits before you are that close if you want to achieve a semblance of the classic 'bounce'.

All ai 'fly' almost flawlessly, and are not subject to G limitations or overheat; if you are going to fly offline exclusively, you may not want to bother with limiting yourself with Blackouts & Redouts or Overheat in your campaigns. You will need to master your own aircraft to come close to matching them in relative performance, so learn how to keep your specific plane trimmed and how best to accellerate using prop pitch and supercharger stages, mixture, and so on.

I'm running 4 campign careers concurrently, and it takes a few missions to completely get the 'feel' of say, an La-5 after 15 or 20 missions in a 109G-6 or FW 190A. Practice flights, with or without opposition, in the QMB are a big help in making the transitions, but you have to push yourself and the your airplane to get anything out of it.

Finally, don't be stubborn and insist on doing things that don't work just because you think that they should work. That way lies madness, broken controllers, and ruined LCD screens.

cheers

horseback

Kingsman
01-17-2009, 12:13 PM
This engagement will almost always involve an initial head to head pass. It's near suicide to engage here unless you have a significant advantage i.e. firepower, altitude, surprise. In a neutral situation, I will usually make my pass in a shallow dive, below the path of the oncoming bandit. This increases my speed/energy, and causes the enemy pilot to have to make an ever steeper dive in order to remain on target (very handy in low-level encounters). This also allows for a positive friend/foe identification of the bogy. Just before you arrive at his effective range, about 500m, break into a 180 degree turn. The timing is critical here, too early, he'll gain positional advantage, too late, he'll land some hits on you in the pass. Done right, the enemy's shots will miss, and he will be late in beginning his turn. Keep visual on the bandit as you reverse and you should end up very near to his six. Good hunting

TS_Sancho
01-17-2009, 04:15 PM
I would disagree with Kingsman's scenario as breaking early on the merge timed correctly may put you on target for 1 shot but it will be a fast high deflection shot, if you miss you will be defensive and slow with a zero close in.
As stated above head to head is to random to risk as a tactic, however if you really want to try then approaching the first merge push the nose under your target and a bit to one side at 800 meters or so. You'll be closing fast so at about 400 meters pull your sight up to your opponents level, kick hard rudder and shoot.Dont fly straight at the other plane as colliding is not the idea.Whether you hit or miss drop the nose a few degrees stay on the same heading and extend a couple of kilometers then use all that energy youve built to gently start climbing and turning back toward your target.
Remember if you stay fast enough the P38 can climb where the zero can only manage level flight.The whole objective is to get above your opponent.With very few exceptions the higher aircraft will dictate the fight.The secret to the zero is that for all the things it does so well at low speed it does terribly at high speed.Get a thousand meters vertical seperation then roll over and take a stab at him.When you drop on him try not to drop straight down, cut a descending slice. P38 likes to go fast right up untill your elevator becomes useless from compression so watch your throttle.Dont try to turn more than 45 degrees or so, thats how you bleed energy and get caught.If he breaks hard, let him.Extend straight through for a kilometer or so (out of his gun range) then climb and roll back above him.Keep dragging the fight up, down and slow on the deck and the Zero will get you every time.

Kingsman
01-17-2009, 04:51 PM
You know what they say about opinions, Sancho. There are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, my suggestion is nothing more than one maneuver that I have used with success. Take it and put it in your kit bag, or discard it. Bottom line; the more solutions you have to a given problem, the better equipped to make snap decisions under pressure.

SeaFireLIV
01-17-2009, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:


To conclude... HELP! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well this sort of thing takes time in a sim. You posted only about a week ago.

When we say practise and learn, we don`t mean practise for a week and then expect to be an Ace! It`s not that kind of game. It`s a simulation. Some of us have been at it for years and still get beat by the AI sometimes, mostly because we forget to follow the rules every now and then.

SeaFireLIV
01-17-2009, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:


All ai 'fly' almost flawlessly, and are not subject to G limitations or overheat; if you are going to fly offline exclusively, you may not want to bother with limiting yourself with Blackouts & Redouts or Overheat in your campaigns. You will need to master your own aircraft to come close to matching them in relative performance, so learn how to keep your specific plane trimmed and how best to accellerate using prop pitch and supercharger stages, mixture, and so on.



horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of this I do not agree with, especially this. But i`ve written thousands of lines on my experience with AI and I know or a fact that you do not need to disable Redouts, blackouts and overheat to beat the AI, not at all.

I also know that the AI will never make a manouever that would cause it to blackout.

Fly against the AI enough and you`ll see it IS quite beatable. Where it gets hard is if there`s 3 or 4 of them at high level on just you.

I`ve survived 3-4 Veteran 109 AI in an I16, by simply keeping my head on a swivel and using the I16s abilities until help arrives or I make it to an airfield. Done similar in a Spitfire Vb as well and taken a couple of them down in it.

M_Gunz
01-17-2009, 06:25 PM
They don't always know exactly where you are either. Past 200-some meters they don't know and they take a couple seconds to react.
I've zoomed them and shot them up before they reacted while getting in slow and under 200m then taking time to line up a shot, they
won't hold still at all.
They can't shoot deflection worth spit either.

There's lots of rumors about the AI. You want to believe then don't pay attention to the exceptions you see.
I've seen the same spouted about people on the net making impossible moves as well and the old 'why didn't he black out?' posts.
When it comes down to it the poster missed or misjudged something and filled in from 'must have'. I wonder how many pilots went
down IRL asking "how did he do that?" since at least they couldn't blame modeling.

TS_Sancho
01-17-2009, 07:26 PM
Kingsman, my appologies if I rubbed you wrong as it was not my intent.I agree very much the more options one is aware of the deeper ones bag of tricks.I would only point out that the manuever you described though agressive would be, IMHO, better suited to the Zero pilot than the P38.

norton1974
01-17-2009, 08:04 PM
I like sancho's approach to this scenerio.
I would not turn at all within 2km of a zero in a p38, whenever i try to the zero ends up with the advantage in short order.
I have noticed that this is not a quick mission though I have to be patient and wait for the right position to attack.

SeaFireLIV
01-17-2009, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:

I've seen the same spouted about people on the net making impossible moves as well and the old 'why didn't he black out?' posts.
When it comes down to it the poster missed or misjudged something and filled in from 'must have'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. If I looked hard enough I would find posts saying exactly the same about the AI and the Online human fighter that the Player failed to shoot down. If it`s Online, the Player will say the enemy aircraft is `overmodelled` and their`s is `porked` if it`s AI then the AI doesn`t suffer from any `restrictions` and is impossible to beat.

95% of the time it`s just the Player not flying right or not understanding his aircraft limitations (or both) then blaming something else.

I`ve seen it so many times.

Dance
01-17-2009, 08:22 PM
Tried the scenario, solo, against 4 of the buggers, took 15~20 mins down near the deck, but got them all.

Nothing flash, just me old stick with hat and several cans of liquid courage.

I tried to use high speed head on passes (little choice in this scenario), extend, roll
over and do it again. Hardly any turning and I had little space to dive.

A human group would have split up and torn me a new one though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

As it was, a few mg scratches, and I was home for tea and medals.

If you can view it, perhaps it will help.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dance/P38TRK.rar

('46 trk)

mortoma
01-17-2009, 08:56 PM
I started up a Singapore offline campaign flying the Buffalo MK.1 and the AI Zeroes and Oscars have no chance against me. And the Buff is very slow and weak in all respects compared to the P-38. However the Bettys and Jills scare me with their defensive guns!!

I guess you just need more experience and only time in the sim will improve your P-38 against Zero problem. Please be patient, you'll learn what to do from trial and error. And mostly error. You already know what types of flying is not working. So eventually you'll find out what does help.

I know this is not what you want to hear but you've been given really great advice from our veteran players, so far to little avail. So it's just experience you lack. A real pilot does not take his first flying lessons in a 747 jumbo, so don't expect to be an ace right off the bat.

horseback
01-17-2009, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
All ai 'fly' almost flawlessly, and are not subject to G limitations or overheat; if you are going to fly offline exclusively, you may not want to bother with limiting yourself with Blackouts & Redouts or Overheat in your campaigns. You will need to master your own aircraft to come close to matching them in relative performance, so learn how to keep your specific plane trimmed and how best to accellerate using prop pitch and supercharger stages, mixture, and so on.

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of this I do not agree with, especially this. But i`ve written thousands of lines on my experience with AI and I know or a fact that you do not need to disable Redouts, blackouts and overheat to beat the AI, not at all.

I also know that the AI will never make a manouever that would cause it to blackout.

Fly against the AI enough and you`ll see it IS quite beatable. Where it gets hard is if there`s 3 or 4 of them at high level on just you.

I`ve survived 3-4 Veteran 109 AI in an I16, by simply keeping my head on a swivel and using the I16s abilities until help arrives or I make it to an airfield. Done similar in a Spitfire Vb as well and taken a couple of them down in it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>By G limitations, I'm speaking about more than just blackouts or redouts; there's also the ability to dive at speeds the player's aircraft starts falling apart at.

By 'flying perfectly', I mean that their operation of the aircraft and the efficiency of their maneuvers is at 10/10ths. They never get tired or distracted, or have their foot or hand slip, their aircraft are flown perfectly straight and level, even in the low alt 'turbulence' that has you bouncing around like a pinball; they never lose any of the energy that you or I will spill by the slightest misapplication of stick, rudder, or flaps (and how come their flaps never get stuck after they deploy them at speeds over 350kph?).

In short, unless they are trying to dump some energy, their 'ball' is always centered, and their trim is always instantly perfect, regardless of whether the ai in question is an Ace or a Rookie.

It has been my experience since the introduction of the 4.0 patch that the ai do indeed seem to engage in high G maneuvers that leave the player blacked or redded out, and that includes a lag type pursuit where you are following his flight path as closely as you can. Oleg may have said some years ago that the ai don't exceed full blackout or redout lines, but I sincerely doubt that they are limited in the ways the player is limited as they approach those lines.

I never said that you couldn't beat them without blackouts or redouts; my message is that doing so takes a lot of the aggravation out of the BS, non-historic tactics they use, particularly the negative G stuff that was rarely used by anyone but the Germans; the lightly stressed Japanese fighters, particularly in the early war, would have torn themselves apart using them as regularly as they do in this game.

I imagine that the early war Italian fighters would fall into the same category.

As for awareness, the fighters will evade in the combat area at specific ranges according to 'rank' if you have your 'pipper' on or close to them. You can sneek up under or at an angle to them and then take a sudden snap shot at them, but for a no-deflection shot on an undamaged or unengaged aircraft (like probably two thirds or more of the victories scored in WWII were), you usually need to take it at ranges over 400m (or about 100-200m farther away than was necessary in real life combats). Once they are actually damaged, then they are more likely to 'sit still' for the coup de gras.

They are absolutely aware of where they are relative to your field of vision; I have watched literally thousands of recordings of missions where the split second after he passed under my nose as I prepared to take a (damned near perfect) high deflection shot, my intended target made an abrupt change in flight path. I literally cannot count the number of times that an enemy aircraft got behind my canopy frames and managed to move from one side of my aircraft to the other without coming out from behind the frames. It happens far too regularly, even using TrackIR, for it to be coincidence.

That's a level of awareness well beyond human ability, and when it's done consistantly, it feels like you're being cheated. It robs the player of immersion, and steals many of the known & proven tactics of the period out of his bag of tricks.

It can be very frustrating for the player, especially one who hasn't mastered his ride, but knows that it 'should' be much better than the ai he is fighting offline. The reality is that until you have mastered most of the tricks of the trade in getting the most performance out of your own fighter, dealing with certain types of ai fighters can be maddening, and there aren't a lot of obvious resources to teach the new player those tricks, particularly when he's flying something as difficult to fly and underperforming as the P-38 in this game.

cheers

horseback

Ba5tard5word
01-18-2009, 02:19 AM
Jeez, earlier I tried leading a squad of 4 P-38's against 4 Ki-43's. I almost ended up throwing my joystick out the damn window. It's hard enough to ride the P-38 like a hotrod and deal with the Ki-43's, but the main problem was that the AI P-38's are SO STUPID it's not even funny. They wouldn't cover me, or would cover me at like 2000 meters away, and would take forever to bother tailing an enemy, then miss, then immediately get tailed and beg for help and get shot down.



Anyway yeah the AI doesn't seem to have the problems a human does but you can always take advantage of the fact that they always use the same tactics over and over.

I_KG100_Prien
01-18-2009, 03:32 AM
I noticed the AI's ability to "anticipate" your pipper and your shots a long time ago, and it really took my enjoyment of the sim down a notch or two.

I once flew behind an AI at a range of about 300m, but kept my pipper away from him. It didn't even act like I was there.. Just flew along straight and level.. The second I put my pipper on him he started to go into evasion mode. All I did was keep him in view. He then leveled out all over again.. Then it was rinse, repeat numerous times to be sure of what I was seeing.

Also can't count the times I've been tracking the AI with my pipper to make a shot and they somehow knew how to correct their angle of flight to keep them in a position to avoid being hit, or just duck under my cowl and "disappear".

What I take away from Horseback's statement about turning off certain difficulty switches is to use that as a temporary measure until one learns the habits of the AI, then you can switch them back on after you get the knowledge you need.

I personally have no problems shooting down the AI. I don't try to follow them through their ludicrous maneuvers.. I just stay perched and wait for them to stop.. Then dive down and hit 'em with a deflection shot.

If they start the endless "spiral climb" I don't follow, I just keep my eye on 'em and wait for them to come back down. Sure, it puts me at an "E" disadvantage- but it's practice on handling being jumped.

Bremspropeller
01-18-2009, 03:59 AM
+1 on every single aspect you mentioned, Prien.

DKoor
01-18-2009, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
By G limitations, I'm speaking about more than just blackouts or redouts; there's also the ability to dive at speeds the player's aircraft starts falling apart at.

By 'flying perfectly', I mean that their operation of the aircraft and the efficiency of their maneuvers is at 10/10ths. They never get tired or distracted, or have their foot or hand slip, their aircraft are flown perfectly straight and level, even in the low alt 'turbulence' that has you bouncing around like a pinball; they never lose any of the energy that you or I will spill by the slightest misapplication of stick, rudder, or flaps (and how come their flaps never get stuck after they deploy them at speeds over 350kph?).

In short, unless they are trying to dump some energy, their 'ball' is always centered, and their trim is always instantly perfect, regardless of whether the ai in question is an Ace or a Rookie.

It has been my experience since the introduction of the 4.0 patch that the ai do indeed seem to engage in high G maneuvers that leave the player blacked or redded out, and that includes a lag type pursuit where you are following his flight path as closely as you can. Oleg may have said some years ago that the ai don't exceed full blackout or redout lines, but I sincerely doubt that they are limited in the ways the player is limited as they approach those lines.

I never said that you couldn't beat them without blackouts or redouts; my message is that doing so takes a lot of the aggravation out of the BS, non-historic tactics they use, particularly the negative G stuff that was rarely used by anyone but the Germans; the lightly stressed Japanese fighters, particularly in the early war, would have torn themselves apart using them as regularly as they do in this game.

I imagine that the early war Italian fighters would fall into the same category.

As for awareness, the fighters will evade in the combat area at specific ranges according to 'rank' if you have your 'pipper' on or close to them. You can sneek up under or at an angle to them and then take a sudden snap shot at them, but for a no-deflection shot on an undamaged or unengaged aircraft (like probably two thirds or more of the victories scored in WWII were), you usually need to take it at ranges over 400m (or about 100-200m farther away than was necessary in real life combats). Once they are actually damaged, then they are more likely to 'sit still' for the coup de gras.

They are absolutely aware of where they are relative to your field of vision; I have watched literally thousands of recordings of missions where the split second after he passed under my nose as I prepared to take a (damned near perfect) high deflection shot, my intended target made an abrupt change in flight path. I literally cannot count the number of times that an enemy aircraft got behind my canopy frames and managed to move from one side of my aircraft to the other without coming out from behind the frames. It happens far too regularly, even using TrackIR, for it to be coincidence.

That's a level of awareness well beyond human ability, and when it's done consistantly, it feels like you're being cheated. It robs the player of immersion, and steals many of the known & proven tactics of the period out of his bag of tricks.

It can be very frustrating for the player, especially one who hasn't mastered his ride, but knows that it 'should' be much better than the ai he is fighting offline. The reality is that until you have mastered most of the tricks of the trade in getting the most performance out of your own fighter, dealing with certain types of ai fighters can be maddening, and there aren't a lot of obvious resources to teach the new player those tricks, particularly when he's flying something as difficult to fly and underperforming as the P-38 in this game.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You summarized it just fine...
Point of the whole story being that one can beat Ai no prob, just to do it, he sometimes (or rather most of the times) should use non-historic tactics, and that's where most of the new guys are confused.
From one side everyone is telling them - learn the plane, use this or that historical tactic etc. etc.... once online, that should for the most part work well. However on the other side, if they try some of the historical stuff vs Ai, they wont get good results simply because of the stuff you mentioned, because Ai is favored by game in some ways that players ain't.

M_Gunz
01-18-2009, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
I noticed the AI's ability to "anticipate" your pipper and your shots a long time ago, and it really took my enjoyment of the sim down a notch or two.

I once flew behind an AI at a range of about 300m, but kept my pipper away from him. It didn't even act like I was there.. Just flew along straight and level.. The second I put my pipper on him he started to go into evasion mode. All I did was keep him in view. He then leveled out all over again.. Then it was rinse, repeat numerous times to be sure of what I was seeing.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that's why long range deflection&correction has worked so well for me -- pipper leads the target that way.
They do take a noticeable time to respond at least for me but that may be from slower PC = less AI CPU cycles.

K_Freddie
01-18-2009, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
I noticed the AI's ability to "anticipate" your pipper and your shots a long time ago, and it really took my enjoyment of the sim down a notch or two.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

Soooooo.. there you are flying so nicely, and you see an enemy come behind you, straightening itself for a good shot - You're going to do nothing but sit there and let it shoot the krap outa you -- right !!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-18-2009, 07:58 AM
Y`know, Horseback, in the day when Oleg was still here and making long essays on AI was important I was prepared to write them. And I did.

Nowadays I just cannot be arsed because what difference will it make? Who will be convinced or not? everyone will stick with their view and if it`s about impressing the new guys such as the OP then I`m not interested.

All I`m doing is saying it like how it is. I`m not joining the `who can write the longest, most eloquent post` any more. At least, not for now, probably will with SOW.

@ AllorNothing117, after Dance`s little flight, I decided to take up the same spec P38 the OP mentioned against two ACE AI over the pacific. It took about 4 attempts to get them both and I am NO P38 expert. Most of my tactics were probably completely wrong.

1st attempt: Shot down one zero in head-on. Second one hit me and set me on fire straight after.

2nd: Shot first down in head-on. Second shot past. After hard manouevering he got on my six and expertly set me on fire.

3rd attempt: Shot first down in head-on and second collided into me.

4th attempt: Gained height. Came down on zeros now climbing at me. Shot first down in head-on and broke immediately high and left. But I had only 3 guns as the 1st zero had hit one gun in the H-to-H. The other zero flew by and came round on my low 5. I went medium to full flaps and broke hard right to bear my P38 towards the zero fast climbing up (and turning) towards my one.

A little trim and I opened fire as he crossed my path. He shot past and something fell off. As I looked to my 8 I saw him bail.

On Veteran it was easy to shoot both zeros down on first time head-to-heads. I restarted and this time climbed a bit and went wide to give the zeros time to get a bead on me.

Now it got a lot harder. The two planes got on my 6 and it was tough trying to lose them. I dived and trimmed out. I looked behind to see the zeros closing. Just as it looked like they were in range I pulled back to climb, this is normally a bad move, but I then went full Flaps, trimmed, drop my power and ruddered right. Both zeros flew past. They can`t match that.

I quickly powered back up, flaps back in and shot at the second zero passing, damaging him. Normally, you only need a couple of shots to set him on fire. He split and headed for home, I think.

Now I was stalling, but recovered to get back on the first zeros 6. It took the zero sometime, but he started outturning me and I just wasn`t quick enough to hit him. After that he was on my 6 and shot my wing off.

However, like I said, I`m no expert with the P38 ( I know I broke a few rules in that I did not B&Z much) and I`m just demonstrating that Veteran and even Ace can be shot down IF you use just some of your aircraft`s capabilities. It`s also VERY important to keep your situational awareness at all times.

How much better must a Player Pilot be who actually knows his P38 well, eh.

AllorNothing117
01-18-2009, 09:30 AM
Thanks for all the replies! I get it now lol. I've played a few more missions in the Zero then got back in the P-38. I find that I can just make a pass then fly away and they chase me. But I cna outrun them (slowly but surely) and after about 2 hours of running away I can turn around and do it again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thank you!

I now hate the AI though. lol

horseback
01-18-2009, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
I noticed the AI's ability to "anticipate" your pipper and your shots a long time ago, and it really took my enjoyment of the sim down a notch or two.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

Soooooo.. there you are flying so nicely, and you see an enemy come behind you, straightening itself for a good shot - You're going to do nothing but sit there and let it shoot the krap outa you -- right !!!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Freddy, if I approached you from directly behind and below at a high rate of closure, how likely are you to see me? Half the time? If I do it right, it should be 1 out of 10 times at most that you will see me, and react at just the right moment.

The ai can see where the player is at all times, and unless locked into a routine, such as landing or attacking another plane, will react when the player represents a threat EVERY TIME.

This is doubly aggravating when they sit still for your ai wingmen and let themselves be blown away...

I absolutely understand that there are limitations in the ai routines due to lack of processing resources, but the point is that the ai will always fly much better than a human is capable of in this game, and that they can see you when they shouldn't be able to, and they take shameless advantage of <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">your</span> blind spots.

cheers

horseback

norton1974
01-18-2009, 01:09 PM
My only complaints about the AI are the rear gunners on bombers, they are a little to acurate. Also the way wingmen will shot at a burning plane and follow it down instead of attacking other planes.
If I fly a wildcat in a campaign and keep my speed and altitude up I do very well, however if I fly a wildcat in a QMB against a zero it is very tough if I am the only target, plus I usually try to push the fight and then I make mistakes.
So I think that its my mistakes that make the AI look so good.

DKoor
01-18-2009, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by norton1974:
My only complaints about the AI are the rear gunners on bombers, they are a little to acurate. Also the way wingmen will shot at a burning plane and follow it down instead of attacking other planes.
If I fly a wildcat in a campaign and keep my speed and altitude up I do very well, however if I fly a wildcat in a QMB against a zero it is very tough if I am the only target, plus I usually try to push the fight and then I make mistakes.
So I think that its my mistakes that make the AI look so good. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hehe that made me smile...(bolded) yep, you're right.
But you've just been too modest there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Ba5tard5word
01-18-2009, 02:11 PM
I know I've said it here before, but the AI will pretty much always level out and get lazy and fly in a straight line...tail them from a distance as they loop and jink around, then wait long enough (hopefully without an enemy on your tail) and they'll just level out for a bit...then's your chance.

And yeah deflection shots are key, since a Zero or Ki-43 will try to do wide swooping turns to evade you where they can only be hit with deflection shots.

I_KG100_Prien
01-18-2009, 06:18 PM
K_Freddie.

To address your response.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/gerekeh/jaggoff.gif

Also read Horseback's response. It sums it up nicely. It's not about an attack on an opponent that saw you coming. It's about an attack that an opponent would...not...have...seen...you...

Yet is able to react to the threat because it's a computer program and it knows where you are when it shouldn't.

TinyTim
01-18-2009, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
I noticed the AI's ability to "anticipate" your pipper and your shots a long time ago, and it really took my enjoyment of the sim down a notch or two.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it maybe also has something to do with range. When you close within 250m (or something like that), AI starts evasive maneouvering. I've never actually tried to jump an AI plane with my pipper significantly off him and observe its behaviour.

JimmyBlonde
01-18-2009, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
Hello,

I fly the P-38 J against the a6m5(a) Zero. I have made a few posts about this before and I'm still getting hammered. I would really appreciate some help as I've been at this for about 6 Months and I still can't beat them. More specifically...

- 1 vs 1
- Offline
- Average AI
- Okinawa
- Situation Advantage

As I mentioned before I've made a few posts about this and I'm still getting nowhere. I'd really appreciate help but please don't say things like... You need to be faster, he can out-turn you, use Boom and Zoom tactics. I get that. I've been trying to do that but I still get beaten. I find that if I try to keep my speed up he ends up higher than me. And if I try pure BnZ looping over and rolling at the top then I end up going very slow and each time I do that I bleed off more and more speed, and then he ends up faster than, and if he gets behind me I'm screwed. I appreciate that allot of this is to with the AI being incredibly good at flying. Regardless of skill level. But everyone on this Forum seems to say things like "The P-38 should eat Zeros for breakfast!" Only, o.k., but offline against A.I.? Really? I'd love it for people to try it. I think my Kill to death ratio is probably about 4:6...

To conclude... HELP! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You poor guy, maybe you should take up tap-dancing...

Just kidding.

To kill the Zero with a P-38 requires three essential ingredients.

1. Height

2. Speed

3. An accurate deflection shot.

I am guessing that you are either not attacking with a sufficient altitude advantage, or that you are not taking advantage of the opportunities that present themselves when you do.

Historically the Zero's excellent acceleration and manooverability (I can never spell that stupid word right) were countered by the wingman system called the "Thatch weave"

Since you seem keen to beat the Zero sen 1v1 I can only re-iterate that you must attack with an altitude advantage of at least 500 m.

Once you have made you initial pass don't zoom, keep your nose down and your speed up until the Zero is out if sight before climbing to altitude, reaccquiring your target and trying again.

This it the way I kill Zeroes in the F4F so you should have NP in the P-38. Let us know how you get on and maybe post a track or something.

K_Freddie
01-20-2009, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
.. it should be 1 out of 10 times at most that you will see me, and react at just the right moment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only been bounced a few times out of thousands of hours online, and on those occasions shot down even less. I just do not fly in a straight line waiting to be 'peppered', it's that simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
To address your response.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/gerekeh/jaggoff.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You got hairs growing in your palms.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

mortoma
01-20-2009, 05:19 PM
I just started a New Guinea campaign last night in the P-38. I had to modify Dgen so I could start a career there in it. I did it just to see if I could do well in it like I used to and because of this thread. In the second mission I got wounded by a Betty defensive gunner so I had to restart the career. I'm doing exceptionally well in it now and what works for me is to wait until my flight mates start a furball and then sneak up behind a Zeke or Oscar that's busy trying to shoot down one of my flight mates. Of course, this has been my tactic playing this game for years but it works just as well in the P-38 as it does in anything. This tactic accomplishes two things, gives me an easy kill 3 out of 4 times ( I don't miss often ) and it very well may save the 'virtual life' of one of my AI buddies.

The second part of my tactic comes into play if I get a AI tail. I run away at high speed and call one of my flight mates by yelling for help ( tab + 7 commmand ) and then once he gets the enemy off of my tail, I turn around and start all over again. Once all the bandit fighters are smoked we go after the bombers, if any. If my flight has all been shot down and I can't get help to get fighters off of me, I just run away and disengage. The wise choice and very easy to do in the P-38 with it's great speed. In a slower fighter I'd have to run for a friendly base or flak installation and keep them there until shot down.

I am even getting into some turning against the Zeroes and Oscars with great success. I am averaging 1.6 Zeroes or Oscars per sortie. Sometimes as many as 3 or 4 and a couple Oscars bombers. My best sortie has been 7 fighters and bombers ( 4 fighters and 3 bombers )

WTE_Galway
01-20-2009, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
Jeez, earlier I tried leading a squad of 4 P-38's against 4 Ki-43's. I almost ended up throwing my joystick out the damn window. It's hard enough to ride the P-38 like a hotrod and deal with the Ki-43's, but the main problem was that the AI P-38's are SO STUPID it's not even funny. They wouldn't cover me, or would cover me at like 2000 meters away, and would take forever to bother tailing an enemy, then miss, then immediately get tailed and beg for help and get shot down.



Anyway yeah the AI doesn't seem to have the problems a human does but you can always take advantage of the fact that they always use the same tactics over and over. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Online padlock is a cheat, offline padlock is your friend.

Tag the enemy you want your wingman etc to target with padlock and then tell them to "Attack my Target".

SeaFireLIV
01-20-2009, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:


Online padlock is a cheat, offline padlock is your friend.

Tag the enemy you want your wingman etc to target with padlock and then tell them to "Attack my Target". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. I don`t use padlock Offline or online, but it`s defintely a good plan to do this if you want the AI to obey attacking specific targets, especially ground.

jamesblonde1979
01-20-2009, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:


Online padlock is a cheat, offline padlock is your friend.

Tag the enemy you want your wingman etc to target with padlock and then tell them to "Attack my Target". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

Padlock is too disorientating for me, I like to use the mouse to control my viewpoint and keep my situational awareness as open as possible.

AllorNothing117
01-21-2009, 06:17 AM
Stupuid AI! Grrrrrrrrr, now you pionted it out I notice everything they do that's cheating. Oh well just keep out running them I guese, takes ages and isn't very fun, but It's the only way...

SeaFireLIV
01-21-2009, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
Stupuid AI! Grrrrrrrrr, now you pionted it out I notice everything they do that's cheating. Oh well just keep out running them I guese, takes ages and isn't very fun, but It's the only way... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



It`s very easy to get caught in the `Blame AI` trap.

Don`t let other people tell you how to enjoy your game or that the AI`s bad. I believe the AI does a sterling job. I`ve seen people ONLINE who are far dumber than the `AI` and they should know better. At least `AI` gets on with it.

There`s no such thing as an AI in reality. They are just programmed routines. So be glad at how well it does what it does.

I have flown offline against `AI` in many offline campaigns over 4-5 years and have been very happy with it. I have had some great missions with them. Sure, it has its problems as does all AI of all games, but it does what it does very well.



Fly CFS3 or many other sims and see how bad their AI REALLY is.

BOB is probably the only sim that does slightly better AI, but you won`t find a P38 in it.

M_Gunz
01-21-2009, 09:01 AM
In Dynamix' Aces of the Pacific and Aces over Europe the AI would actually jump position when out of sight.
Those ran on 386SX even (did a pretty fair job for the times) and it was the only way the AI was even marginal competition.
Biggest problem I had was in AoE with the shading it was at times hard to tell who was who until they shot at me.

"Fun" games, again for the times. EAW looked gold and then some by comparison.

mortoma
01-21-2009, 10:59 AM
I've also come up with a new tactic that deals with both AI Zeroes and Oscars because of a stupid flaw the AI exhibits at times. Seems like they like to zoom up really high at times, usually in pairs. This works well against most planes that have far less zoom power but it's a deadly mistake against a P-38 with a pilot that's a good shot. Mostly because the 38 has enough reserve power to zoom up really well itself and hang on it's props. Plus the controls are still effective down to speeds of 190Kph. So I just zoom up after them, pick out the one that I think will be the slowest when I get up high enough and put the pipper a little in front of him and blast away. Sometimes they are at the very top and almost at a standstill so you can aim directly at them in that case.

jamesblonde1979
01-21-2009, 05:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
I've also come up with a new tactic that deals with both AI Zeroes and Oscars because of a stupid flaw the AI exhibits at times. Seems like they like to zoom up really high at times, usually in pairs. This works well against most planes that have far less zoom power but it's a deadly mistake against a P-38 with a pilot that's a good shot. Mostly because the 38 has enough reserve power to zoom up really well itself and hang on it's props. Plus the controls are still effective down to speeds of 190Kph. So I just zoom up after them, pick out the one that I think will be the slowest when I get up high enough and put the pipper a little in front of him and blast away. Sometimes they are at the very top and almost at a standstill so you can aim directly at them in that case. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 internets for you.

AllorNothing117
01-24-2009, 12:08 PM
When I said "Stupid" I ment it as an insult, the AI aren't stupid there very good!

M_Gunz
01-24-2009, 06:30 PM
But what about when they're not over there?