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PigLove
12-06-2004, 03:53 PM
Hi

Are there any plans to introduce the He-177 into the game? This plane was much used on the Eastern Front, so I was surprised to see it missing from IL-2

Rgds

Crimea_River
12-06-2004, 06:29 PM
Awesome looking too.

They should catch fire easily, as the unusual twin engine configuration in each nacelle overheated a lot.

JR_Greenhorn
12-06-2004, 10:19 PM
Welcome to the forums, PigLove!

I don't think that plane's being modeled by anyone--at least I don't remember hearing anything about it. It's gotten more difficult lately to find out which planes are being worked on for future inclusion in game. Searching here or at the Netwings forum to see if there are any development shots of it.


Most future content probably will not be for the Eastern Front, but it's no secret we are getting two new Eastern Front maps and possibly more related content soon. I think you'll probably be needing a Pacific Fighters merged install for it though, if you don't have PF already.



PS - threads about less famous planes are often more successful if you include a photo of said plane; hint, hint...

willyvic
12-06-2004, 10:31 PM
What? Like this? http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/he177.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/he177-2.jpg

WV

PigLove
12-07-2004, 02:44 AM
http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image13.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image12.jpg

PigLove
12-07-2004, 02:47 AM
http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image11.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image10.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image9.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image8.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image2.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image14.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image6.jpg

There you go, guys. Not the prettiest bird to fly in WWII, but it was the only big bomber used by the Luftwaffe in the War

Gerd_Schopfel
12-07-2004, 07:26 AM
WOW, nice pictures PigLove. But I must dissagree with you in regards to the He-177 being an ungly ship. In fact, I find it a pretty bird-an effective and deadly weapon! It's s sharp and well defended bomber that surely made a good deal of contribution to the Third Reich.


http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/War_Wolf.jpg
"SUCCESS FLOURISHES ONLY IN PERSEVERANCE - CEASELESS, RESTLESS PERSEVERANCE.€œ
-BARON MONFRED BON RICHTHOFEN

Sgt.Waite
12-07-2004, 08:11 AM
Be careful what you wish for Greenhorn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Piglove, isn't that the Condor? I'm not all that up to speed on Luftwaffe A/C, especially the bombers, but I remember something about the Axis having a long range heavy bomber, similar to the B-17 but with greater range.

NORAD_Zooly10
12-07-2004, 10:15 AM
didnt this plane suffer from some kind of serious fault (structurally weak?), also there was 4 engined version iirc (Grief was the name i think)
~S~
Zooly

Von_Zero
12-07-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> didnt this plane suffer from some kind of serious fault (structurally weak?), also there was 4 engined version iirc (Grief was the name i think) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
the plane show in pictures is the He-177 aka GREIF (Griffin). Grief means pain.
and it was a 4-engined bomber, that is the whole catch, the engines were coupled in pair, sharing the same nacell, and each pair driving only one prop. this was the cause for wich the engines were frequently overheating and tended to catch fire. the crew used to call them "Reichfeuerzeig" (fire lighter). i thinlk the porblem was solved dough, and it becamed a pleasant aircraft.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
12-07-2004, 11:17 AM
that's right.

the plane was fast (for it's size) and had a heavy bomb load, even more than the B17's used to carry i think.
There was one big operation were plenty of He177 were used to attack strategic targets in russia.(AFAIR)

Platypus_1.JaVA
12-07-2004, 11:39 AM
I think it is legitimate enough to get it in Il-2/FB/AEP/PF

woofiedog
12-07-2004, 12:23 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif The He-177 would give the German Air Side in IL-2 some much needed firepower for Ground Pounding... espeically if equiped with some of the Air to Ground Missiles!
Armament: (A-5/R-2) one 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose, one MG131 in forward dorsal turret, one MG 131 in rear dorsal turret, one MG 151 manually aimed in the tail and two MG 81 or one MG 131 manually aimed at rear of gondola; maximum internal bombload 13,200lb (6000kg), seldom carried. External load: two Hs293 guided missiles, FX 1400 guided bombs, mines or torpedoes (more if internal bay blanked off and racks added below it.)
Great Pictures PigLove!

-HH-Dubbo
12-07-2004, 04:11 PM
I think Zooly10's thinking of the He277.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/He277a.jpg

(I don't think they made many of these) I would love to see a 177 in the game. Particularly with the guided missiles. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PigLove
12-07-2004, 04:19 PM
Here are some more pictures of the "Greif"

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image46.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image47.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image49.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image50.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image48.jpg

It had a bigger bombload than the B-17 and B-24, and was designed for dive-bombing - which must be amazing to see!

Over a thousand were produced, and they nearly all served on the Eastern Front - so it's a pity not to see them in IL-2

PigLove
12-07-2004, 04:43 PM
-HH-Dubbo is right, the He-277 had four engines and was an attempt to fix the problems with the original He-177

There was also a high-altitude version, the He-274, also with four engines, and a modified tail

But these two models were not built in great numbers

PigLove
12-07-2004, 05:55 PM
Of course, I meant to write "shafts" not "engines" in the previous post

VW-IceFire
12-07-2004, 06:54 PM
Interesting plane...

I hear it was pretty ruined by the requirement for it to be a dive bomber. Utter insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_Neveraine_
12-07-2004, 11:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Interesting plane...

I hear it was pretty ruined by the requirement for it to be a dive bomber. Utter insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good old Luftwaffe High Command http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif where they got there ideas from

MrOblongo
12-08-2004, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _Neveraine_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Interesting plane...

I hear it was pretty ruined by the requirement for it to be a dive bomber. Utter insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good old Luftwaffe High Command http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif where they got there ideas from <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some bastard called Hitler... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Ruy Horta
12-08-2004, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I hear it was pretty ruined by the requirement for it to be a dive bomber. Utter insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not completely, although its easy to say with 20/20 hindsight. According to Heinkel himself the project wasn't only hampered by RLM demands but also by the chief designer.

The Luftwaffe knew it could not fight the western allies on an equal basis, it could not fight a land war on the scale it was committed to AND a strategic air campaign on the scale needed, not even adding the naval campaign.

An early answer to this question was the dive bomber. It replaced the masses needed for the effective knock out of a point target (be that a factory, bridge or whatever) with improved accuracy. Also the He 177 would not have attacked at the same angles as a Ju 87. With hind sight we may argue that the RLM should at least have run a back up program, as proposed by Heinkel, an orthodox four engine version of the same basic design (similar to the AVRO Manchester and later Lancaster designs).

Later the issue of numbers vs accuracy was somewhat solved by precision guided weapons like the Fritz-X bomb and Hs 293 guided missiles.

When looking at German decision making you must look at all the variables. The Germans did not have the same options as the Brits or Americans and thus could not dedicate as much of their economy to creating a (now orthodox) strategic heavy bomber force.

But those who study the Luftwaffe at length will learn that they certainly understood the theory and possible need for such a force (like they tried to implement against Russia in 1943 - too little and far too late).

JR_Greenhorn
12-08-2004, 08:14 AM
Great work PigLove!
You've drummed up some interest in the plane with your thread and photos. You've discovered that no one here yet has any argument to seeing this plane in game (it's tougher to get a plane in if you have folks fighting it every step of the way--just ask gibbage about his P-80).

The next step to getting the plane in game is to find as many modelling references as you can. Good, detailed shots will be needed of all external areas of the aircraft, and plans or blueprints are a big help. If you hope for it to be flyable, you'll need to find detailed photos of each crew position, including all gunners. Finally, you'll need to find flight performance data to send with the model to Oleg if a model does get completed.

That's all stuff you can do on your own. The hard part is finding a modeller that would be willing to put the work into such a plane. It can be done, but it needs to be done soon. I'm not sure how long they will be taking 3rd party models for planes, but I think the days are soon numbered. However, ianboys and his team have recently finished two new maps for the Eastern front, including the long-awaited Murmansk map. So there is obviously still a place for new Eastern front content even after PF was released.

I personally would love to see another German bomber in game. May favourite thing to do in game is bomber intercepts, so it's always nice to have more varied choices of targets.
There has been a clamour for more flyable bombers for quite some time too. I'm sure those folks would enjoy any progress you could make with this plane.

ElektroFredrik
12-08-2004, 11:33 AM
IIRC someone has been working on a He-177 for quite some time
(look on the modellers forum at Netwings) and last time I saw
the model it looked rather complete (but no DM or LODs)
But the last time I heard some info on this project was
long ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I have no idea what the current status is...

PigLove
12-08-2004, 06:12 PM
Bump (http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image1.gif) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PigLove
12-08-2004, 07:38 PM
(Discussion continues at this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=1381083052))

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
12-08-2004, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt.Waite:
Be careful what you wish for Greenhorn! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Piglove, isn't that the Condor? I'm not all that up to speed on Luftwaffe A/C, especially the bombers, but I remember something about the Axis having a long range heavy bomber, similar to the B-17 but with greater range. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the one you are refering to is the Fw 200 there are some pics of it here :-

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/condor.html

It saw some service in an anti shipping role in the atlantic. Not so sure about its role in the ETO but it was basically a converted passenger aircraft. We already have it as an ai aircraft in game.

darkhorizon11
12-08-2004, 10:07 PM
I took the liberty of seaching NW for you guys and finding all the posts relating to the He 177.

http://www.netwings.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=search&command=doit&current_forum=17&days=0

As for long range bombers there were many designs and what not, only a few actually got off the napkin though. Another big one that you might have seen was this? Its rumored it did fly within a few miles of the East Coast on a bombing run, but the Germans feared the prototype would be shot down. In reality there was barely any air defense of the EC at the time. Still, theres no proof so it could be a rumor... Either way enjoy:

http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html

PigLove
12-08-2004, 11:35 PM
Thanks darkhorizon11, the Me-294 was a very impressive plane - probably comparable to the B-29

However, it was a Ju-390 that (allegedly) flew almost to New York. More information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390).

Its kid brother, the Ju-290, regularly flew from Eastern Europe to Manchuria in the later part of the War, enabling Germany to maintain direct contact with the Japanese

LEXX_Luthor
12-09-2004, 12:45 AM
You can edit your pic into click link.

Just paste pic web address into posting box, ubi webboard software makes it into click link.

Also, when it comes up, you can click the pic to make it bigger or smaller.

Click links make better for comparing grafs or pics by clicking on the open pages on taskbar,
instead of scrolling up and down, left and right.

PigLove
12-09-2004, 12:54 AM
Thanks LEXX_Luthor - I sometimes forget not everyone has a fast conn and big monitor

LEXX_Luthor
12-09-2004, 01:52 AM
Thanx. We can read the thread now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif A good one too.

darkhorizon11
12-09-2004, 08:52 PM
BUMPPPPP

Ob.Emann
12-10-2004, 02:08 AM
The He-177 was VERY similar in performance to the B-29 Stratofortress, and was also quite a bit faster. In actuality, most He-177's did service with anti-shipping groups in the Western Front, many being used to deploy Fritz-X and Hs-293 guided bombs in the "Baby Blitz" and the Steinbock Harbour raids. In fact, no operational He-177 unit served on Eastern Front airfields. While Kg.1 performed some 100 He-177 raids in Russia in '44, they operated from airbases in Germany.

The stories of the Greif's serious technical problems are largely exagerated. The crews that operated them absolutely fell in love with the aircraft, and if you look at the service stats, you'll notice that the expected losses in accidents where lower than other similar aircraft operated by the Luftwaffe. Now, I'm not implicating that the Greif was problem free, it was infact a very complex aircraft (again, similar to B-29), and demanded quite extensive maintenence, something the ground crews didn't always have the resources nor capacity to perform.

BTW Goering specifically asked Heinkel to transform the -177 from a double-engine heavy bomber with dive capability to a 4 engine heavy bomber (He-277). However, Goering had no interest in putting the 277 into mass production, he just wanted to delay it. Only 8 He-277's were built. A strategic bomber introduced at a time when many beleived the Luftwaffe was fighting a defensive airwar (mid 1943), and production would be concentrated on fighters and fighter-bombers, the He-177 was viewed as little more than a curiosity by the Luftwaffe High Command. It however, served with distinction and praise by the units that flew it, and remained a very competant aircraft, nose to nose with the B-29 in most attributes.

johann_thor
12-10-2004, 03:07 AM
no it was Ernst Udet the drunken stunt-pilot dare-devil ..... he was obsessed with dive bombing.

Aaron_GT
12-10-2004, 07:13 AM
The B29 suffered initially with engine fire problems too (fixed before war's end).

SkyPiggies
12-11-2004, 12:17 AM
I think the point made by Ruy Horta is correct - the problem was economic, not philosophical

Given limited resources, Germany had to give absolute priority to the Army. Air and naval power were of secondary importance

The Luftwaffe existed primarily to defend and assist the Army, which meant lots of fighters and tactical bombers, but few strategic ones

Need for an effective heavy-bomber fleet was probably understood, but it was simply not affordable given Germany's circumstances

Aaron_GT
12-11-2004, 01:04 AM
"The Luftwaffe existed primarily to defend and assist the Army, which meant lots of fighters and tactical bombers, but few strategic ones"

Larger bombers including strategic bombers had been under development in the late 1930s. It is almost as if the start of WW2 surprised both the Navy and Luftwaffe as neither actually seemed ready for war and both projected that they would have the equipment they needed in 1942. Luckily we benefitted via the defeat of the Nazis from this shambolic strategy from Hitler!

JG301_nils
12-11-2004, 02:14 AM
The large version of the Greif, the He-274, two were built and completed by Paris at the company Farman in Suresne. These two were operated by the French Navy after the war as AAS 01. I think they served quite a few years after the war.

SkyPiggies
12-19-2004, 12:29 PM
I think this thread needs another bump

No copyright issues with German planes, I believe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image107.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image110.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image106.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image109.jpg

http://www.btinternet.com/~mmartins/Image111.jpg

jagdmailer
12-19-2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PigLove:
Hi

Are there any plans to introduce the He-177 into the game? This plane was much used on the Eastern Front, so I was surprised to see it missing from IL-2

Rgds <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your are talking about this one ?

http://www.axiomdigital.com/he177main.jpg

Thanks in good part to Luthier, it's now in the scrapped pile along with 6 variants of the Do 217, the Do 17Z-2 & a host of others........

Jagd

jagdmailer
12-19-2004, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PigLove:
Hi

Are there any plans to introduce the He-177 into the game? This plane was much used on the Eastern Front, so I was surprised to see it missing from IL-2

Rgds <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your are talking about this one ?

http://www.axiomdigital.com/he177main.jpg

Thanks in good part to Luthier, it's now in the scrapped pile along with 6 variants of the Do 217, the Do 17Z-2 & a host of others........

Jagd <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.axiomdigital.com/he177main.jpg

There it is

SkyPiggies
12-19-2004, 06:30 PM
Very nice model - someone clearly put a lot of work into it

Looks like I missed some important political discussions... (search function is broken)

Why were these planes rejected?