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View Full Version : Friend in Spitfire needs advice to go against me in 109



Achilles97
10-20-2005, 03:42 PM
My friend has been flying for a few weeks and is surprisingly good relative to his experience. I suggested he fly a 1944 model Spitfire, the 1Xe. I fly the bf109G10.

Our 1v1 matches take place at low altitude, from ground level to 1000 meters. We usually approach each other head to head but after getting shot down by him a few times this way I try to avoid this.

He feels that my promise that the Spitfire is a great turning plane is not true. He is positive that I am able to out turn him in my 109. He feels that the 109 is just as good or better at turning than his Spitfire because he is pushing it to the limit.

Do you have any advice for him? Can you verify that the Spitfire is a great turning plane and can out turn a 109G10 in sustained turning battles. How should he counter a 109?

Thanks!

Achilles97
10-20-2005, 03:42 PM
My friend has been flying for a few weeks and is surprisingly good relative to his experience. I suggested he fly a 1944 model Spitfire, the 1Xe. I fly the bf109G10.

Our 1v1 matches take place at low altitude, from ground level to 1000 meters. We usually approach each other head to head but after getting shot down by him a few times this way I try to avoid this.

He feels that my promise that the Spitfire is a great turning plane is not true. He is positive that I am able to out turn him in my 109. He feels that the 109 is just as good or better at turning than his Spitfire because he is pushing it to the limit.

Do you have any advice for him? Can you verify that the Spitfire is a great turning plane and can out turn a 109G10 in sustained turning battles. How should he counter a 109?

Thanks!

Banger2004
10-20-2005, 03:49 PM
Tell him to adjust throttle and use flaps (gently) in turns, and be quick to initiate a turn\loop when passing each other. Also set prop pitch to around 85-90%.

Kuna15
10-20-2005, 03:51 PM
Let your friend take Spitfire MK.9c_CW load it with 25% fuel. Then you guys can go into turnfight (sustained). I think that you in BF-109G10 will lose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

However 9e's are tough rides versus BF-109G10 (at least for me).

VW-IceFire
10-20-2005, 03:55 PM
Tell him to stay grounded...Bf109G-10 is a superb fighter with excellent performance and is quite a bit superior in my mind over the IXe 1943 variant that we have.

If you want to fight contemporaries...take up a G-6 Late and then you'll have a fairly even fight.

Jumoschwanz
10-20-2005, 04:04 PM
Tell him to fly on a full-difficulty server, like Spits-vs109s, then he can get into a position of advantage before he attacks, like a good pilot would in WWII.
The other option is for you to go into a 1vs1 battle with me in the Spit a half a dozen times and I will save the tracks. Then he can watch tracks of a half-dozen ways to shoot down a 109 with a Spit. I will be glad to do this for him.

Jumoschwanz

danjama
10-20-2005, 04:06 PM
We need Griffon Engined Spitfires http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

DmdSeeker
10-20-2005, 06:34 PM
Try to explain to him that:

The Spit is a better turner at low speed; if he's chugging around at 100% throttle he'sn playing to your strengths

His best bet is a spiral (not straight) climb

He sucks!

bluedragon1950
10-20-2005, 07:58 PM
Which map/server do you fly? Thx

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Tell him to fly on a full-difficulty server, like Spits-vs109s, then he can get into a position of advantage before he attacks, like a good pilot would in WWII.
The other option is for you to go into a 1vs1 battle with me in the Spit a half a dozen times and I will save the tracks. Then he can watch tracks of a half-dozen ways to shoot down a 109 with a Spit. I will be glad to do this for him.

Jumoschwanz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HellToupee
10-20-2005, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DmdSeeker:
Try to explain to him that:

The Spit is a better turner at low speed; if he's chugging around at 100% throttle he'sn playing to your strengths

His best bet is a spiral (not straight) climb

He sucks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 109 is better at low speeds spit at higher, especially climbing turns, Theres not alot of options aviable from a equal starting point, best bet is to wait until 109 does something like a horizontal turn then loop the sucker if u can get an advantage in a looping fight is generally the best bet.

ploughman
10-21-2005, 07:34 AM
Tell him he's retaining energy in turns when the 109 is bleeding it off which he might be mistaking for the 109 turning better. If he adds a vertical element to his turns (spiral climb and loops) he'll stay in control and wee all over the 109. If I was him I'd have the throttle through the firewall and into the engine block with max boost most of the time, only backing off to avoid overshooting when you're finally glued to the 109's tail. I'd also let the 109 dive if it wanted to, and take the time to gain some more altitude and position myself for when it bobs back up so I could nail it.

F19_Ob
10-21-2005, 08:09 AM
My thought is:

The spitfire would have a hard time wining a slow turnfight with a 109.
The thing that spitfire cant do is to accellerate well from slow speed but the 109 can lift its nose and climb at very slow speeds. This is why the 109 often win in slow turnfights at the deck.

The spitfire in sustained turn probably would keep its energy better and win over a 109 wich wont give up his speed, but a 109 expert would cut his throttle and pull hard to lose all his speed, and momentarily turn inside a spit for enough time to shoot, while a spit will flip easier when trying to do the same.

This is my experience online but if it's correct or not I can't tell u.
What I can say is that I have read about many German pilots who turned inside spits, and some claimed they were sure they could outurn a spit in their 109, and did it.
Some Finns outurned LaGG3's, yaks and La5 in their bf109 G2 and G6.
Difficult to be sure in this matter. Some of the pilots alive today wich have flown both the spit and 109 have claimed that it would be very equal and pilotfactor would decide.
Mark Hanna thought so, but also though the spit would have a small gain in turn.
Another person (forgot name) Claimed that the 109 would win because of the gentle stall and superb climb and accelleration.

so, there it is. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Vipez-
10-21-2005, 08:14 AM
IMHO Spit9E is superior to 109G6/Late, allthough they are more from the same era.. so well flown 109G10 vs well flown Spit9E is a very tight match. I'm not much of a turnfighter, but I would choose the Spit9E_HF and drag the fight to above 6000m, and over there the spit is superior http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In short G10 probably has better climb rate, and better max speed at sealevel, though the differences are rather small. The higher you go the more chances the Spit9 Has.

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-21-2005, 08:19 AM
Almost all 109's lose elevator authority at high speeds. At least moreso than a Spit. After initial engagement the Spit pilot should take a shallow nose-up attitude to bleed some energy and let the 109 turn to engage and thus shed even more "E" than the Spit.

Turn before the 109 can close and build speed without going completely head-to-head. Most experienced 109 pilots will play this game only for a pass or two then break away to gain altitude while watching the Spit dive and scrub his. If they don't, however, and choose to chase in even a shallow dive they will lose their elevator authority before the Spit does. A sudden, tight, looping turn can usually turn the tide in favor of the Spit.

Take Jumo up on his offer. He's a good 109 pilot and I'm sure the tracks would be educational.

Your best bet is to gain the advantage BEFORE closure...be sure.



TB

stathem
10-21-2005, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
Tell him he's retaining energy in turns when the 109 is bleeding it off which he might be mistaking for the 109 turning better. If he adds a vertical element to his turns (spiral climb and loops) he'll stay in control and wee all over the 109. If I was him I'd have the throttle through the firewall and into the engine block with max boost most of the time, only backing off to avoid overshooting when you're finally glued to the 109's tail. I'd also let the 109 dive if it wanted to, and take the time to gain some more altitude and position myself for when it bobs back up so I could nail it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the best one.

SlickStick
10-21-2005, 08:58 AM
Mk. VIII (CW) owns ALL 109s. Be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

In most cases like these around here, it really boils down to the pilot, applied tactics and ability to execute. Experts fly c*r*a*p* planes all the time and see the same success as in a late-war plane.

IMO, the two most important aspects of a Fighter Pilot:

1. Situational Awareness

2. Gunnery

Kuna15
10-21-2005, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
IMO, the two most important aspects of a Fighter Pilot:

1. Situational Awareness

2. Gunnery </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed 120%.

faustnik
10-21-2005, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
We need Griffon Engined Spitfires http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We need +25 boost Merlin Spits. No modeling required, no brainer.

Monty_Thrud
10-21-2005, 05:16 PM
In RL no Biffer outturned its contempory Spitfire...or are we going MSCFS here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Von_Rat
10-21-2005, 09:44 PM
[ How should he counter a 109?

Thanks![/QUOTE]



by whining on forums till 109 is nerfed???


sorry just joking, couldnt resist.

p1ngu666
10-21-2005, 10:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
In RL no Biffer outturned its contempory Spitfire...or are we going MSCFS here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont confuse reality with the game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

G14/G6late imo

get him to fly the VIII it should be better.

incidently, its worth pointing out the spit was actully rather handy up high. especialy the IX/VIII and later griffon verients. same engine as what that there war winging p51b/c/d used infact... and those pesky mossies.

109's and other german aircraft often relied on GM1 to boost power at high alts, which funnily enuff doesnt last long if u need alot of power. some trickled it in, and carried a fair bit (ju88S)

SlickStick
10-22-2005, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
incidently, its worth pointing out the spit was actully rather handy up high. especialy the IX/VIII and later griffon verients. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How true. I was cruising at 5000km this evening and tangling with a K4. Great E retention up high, good zoom and I was able to force the 109 into a vertical looping scissors and I dropped the nose in behind on a pass by chopping throttle, pitch and full flaps, and caught a few rounds into his wing.

As I rolled over the top, I shot straight down into his pit and there was nothing left but LW Hero guts floating in the wind. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
10-22-2005, 09:11 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif