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View Full Version : Penalizing the hunted for being unstealthy?



Chaotic_Infinity
07-18-2011, 06:31 PM
When you are defending in Manhunt, you receive no penalties for roofing or running all over the place, aka being unstealthy, aside from the potential points you would've gotten for hiding/stunning. A team that runs all over the place while defending will lower the hunter's points, sicne they are penalized for being unstealty when attempting to catch their targets. Now, I'm aware that this is a valid strategy, and there are numerous counters to it, such as intercepting them, or taking to the roofs for a better vantage point. However....


I think by now everybody has seen Esco's thread about the MP in Revelations. For those that haven't, one of the biggest changes will be a gradually rising detection meter that starts at discreet and slowly rises to Incognito once you enter LOS without doing any high-profile actions. This is obviously an attempt to encourage stealth even more since you can't simply run behind objects to break LOS. There's also apparently a "roofing" penalty: if you climb to the roofs, your detection meter won't rise above discreet.


Now, this brings up a concern. In Brotherhood, runners are counterable by roofing them or intercepting them, and you still have a chance of getting Silent or Incognito. However, with the mechanics in Revelations, it will be much, much more difficult to get silent kills against a team that runs. Keeping them in LOS long enough without entering high-profile will be difficult, roofing them will get you penalized anyways, and to add insult to injury, escapes now reward twice as many points!

Now, seeing as we've only gotten a brief presentation of the game, and I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I thought it might be worthy of discussion. So what do you guys think?

Chaotic_Infinity
07-18-2011, 06:31 PM
When you are defending in Manhunt, you receive no penalties for roofing or running all over the place, aka being unstealthy, aside from the potential points you would've gotten for hiding/stunning. A team that runs all over the place while defending will lower the hunter's points, sicne they are penalized for being unstealty when attempting to catch their targets. Now, I'm aware that this is a valid strategy, and there are numerous counters to it, such as intercepting them, or taking to the roofs for a better vantage point. However....


I think by now everybody has seen Esco's thread about the MP in Revelations. For those that haven't, one of the biggest changes will be a gradually rising detection meter that starts at discreet and slowly rises to Incognito once you enter LOS without doing any high-profile actions. This is obviously an attempt to encourage stealth even more since you can't simply run behind objects to break LOS. There's also apparently a "roofing" penalty: if you climb to the roofs, your detection meter won't rise above discreet.


Now, this brings up a concern. In Brotherhood, runners are counterable by roofing them or intercepting them, and you still have a chance of getting Silent or Incognito. However, with the mechanics in Revelations, it will be much, much more difficult to get silent kills against a team that runs. Keeping them in LOS long enough without entering high-profile will be difficult, roofing them will get you penalized anyways, and to add insult to injury, escapes now reward twice as many points!

Now, seeing as we've only gotten a brief presentation of the game, and I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I thought it might be worthy of discussion. So what do you guys think?

DudeTD388
07-18-2011, 06:44 PM
Well remember that Manhunt is a TEAM game.

Meaning that working together shouldn't be hard to catch most runners. Not to mention that running like a madman will keep you alive...but gain little to no points as stuns are your only source.

Plus we have throwing knives to slow them for a teammate to stay in LOS, guns for those tricky runners. Not to mention we can close chase breakers with an ability now, throw our smokebombs/firecrackers to slow up runners.

Or even just do what we do now, work as a team to herd runners into our teammates. Plus even if those runners slow you up...remember you can always do the same on your turn.

Chaotic_Infinity
07-18-2011, 08:50 PM
The sheer amount of teamwork needed to take down a single person with those tactics is beyond what the vast majority of randoms are capable of.

Sure, an organized team will fare better, but if you've had a successful kill round, you can outright deny the other team a chance at winning.

sht4brainz
07-18-2011, 09:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crushdag:
There's also apparently a "roofing" penalty: if you climb to the roofs, your detection meter won't rise above discreet.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Ubi, if this is true. If they werent going to add an ability to stun roofers from the ground (since you have little to no defense) then this is a great way to keep those on the ground.

Of course, if they keep adding roof-happy maps and let the computer pick the same map 90% of the time, then the MP will die faster than a rat in a snake pit.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Please do not bypass the Language Filter.</span>

weeklydose
07-19-2011, 01:13 AM
There already is a penalty for the hunted not being stealthy and it's called "not getting any blend points". I'm sure that basic concept makes a comeback in Revelations.

Still, it is true that the inverted detection meter will be somewhat of an incentive to the hunted to just start running whenever they feel the enemy is close while their own abilities are on cooldown.

Also, that thing about your detection meter not rising above discreet once you take to the roofs apparently is a myth based on some people claiming that while they weren't really paying attention to Esco's video. I haven't gone back to check it, but others have pointed out Esco did get an Incognito Focus kill from a roof in that game.

obliviondoll
07-19-2011, 02:08 AM
I think the "problem" people are talking about is that, unlike in ACB, the HUNTERS are penalised for being on the rooftops, and they're saying the HUNTED should be as well. Some people have been saying the detection meter doesn't rise past Discreet while you're on the roof in the E3 demo (and Escoblades' video where he played it).

They've already said the rooftop penalty ISN'T in Manhunt - people complaining may want to update your info. The exact quote was "Some modes will be implementing a rooftop penalty" - NO word on what that penalty is, the "never going above Discreet" thing hasn't been announced officially OR demonstrated ANYWHERE legitimate.

And if you want to reference Esco's video, go ahead - there's discussion about it, and it shows his detection meter not rising UNTIL HE HAS LINE OF SIGHT when on the rooftop - the same thing it does at ground level. And he gets an Incognito Aerial at one point... Are we all good now?

EDIT: I'm still hoping they change the reverse detection meter so it starts at Silent - make the Discreet - Silent section take the shorter time to fill, and Silent - Incognito take a longer time (currently 7 seconds to Silent, then 3 more to Incog - swap them), and it should be fine, imo.

Chaotic_Infinity
07-19-2011, 11:39 AM
I still don't like it. The most effective way to kill runners or defensive players in general is to catch them off guard, like intercepting them around a corner. Doing so requires good knowledge of the map and efficient navigation, which is not always easy. Being an assassin isn't merely about stealth- there's also an element of surprise. A gradually rising detection meter would make it much more difficult to score decent kills with this.

obliviondoll
07-19-2011, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crushdag:
I still don't like it. The most effective way to kill runners or defensive players in general is to catch them off guard, like intercepting them around a corner. Doing so requires good knowledge of the map and efficient navigation, which is not always easy. Being an assassin isn't merely about stealth- there's also an element of surprise. A gradually rising detection meter would make it much more difficult to score decent kills with this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that is why I said this:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by obliviondoll:
EDIT: I'm still hoping they change the reverse detection meter so it starts at Silent - make the Discreet - Silent section take the shorter time to fill, and Silent - Incognito take a longer time (currently 7 seconds to Silent, then 3 more to Incog - swap them), and it should be fine, imo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grygier
07-19-2011, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sht4brainz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crushdag:
There's also apparently a "roofing" penalty: if you climb to the roofs, your detection meter won't rise above discreet.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Ubi, if this is true. If they werent going to add an ability to stun roofers from the ground (since you have little to no defense) then this is a great way to keep those on the ground.

Of course, if they keep adding roof-happy maps and let the computer pick the same map 90% of the time, then the MP will die faster than a rat in a snake pit.

<span class="ev_code_RED">Please do not bypass the Language Filter.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"roofing" penalty it's true but we have no idea what the penalty actually is your meter remain at discreet i believe is just a rumor... but it does make the most sense.

Also manhunt will not have rooftop penalty i remember reading this.