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georgeo76
02-22-2006, 08:34 PM
Last combat mission for the Tomcat (http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88041,00.html?ESRC=navy.nl)

georgeo76
02-22-2006, 08:34 PM
Last combat mission for the Tomcat (http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88041,00.html?ESRC=navy.nl)

Waldo.Pepper
02-22-2006, 08:57 PM
Bugger!

The Super Hornet just doesn't do it for me.

slo_1_2_3
02-22-2006, 10:25 PM
hmm.. i thought it had a projected service use for like 25 more years i dont owell

leitmotiv
02-23-2006, 01:34 AM
Well, Kemper Boyd, our most brilliant fighter tactician, father of the F-15 and the F-16, thought the F-14 was a one-ton canary and everything that was wrong with U.S. fighter design (two-place, swing wing---mechanism just added tremendous weight, colossal, underpowered in the A series), i.e., a Bf 110, not a P-51, F-86, or F-16. No denying the F-14 looked formidable. Add to everything else, I was told by an Air Force historian (for all it was worth) the Phoenix missile was never reliable.

Loki-PF
02-23-2006, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Add to everything else, I was told by an Air Force historian (for all it was worth) the Phoenix missile was never reliable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about the reliability thing but.... One things for sure. The fleet air arm has *no* current capability that equalls what the specs of the phoenix missle system were, and ever since they have announced the phase out of the F-14/Phoenix systems I've wondered about that.

Although the F-14 was not great in all categories it was very good in many, but I've always thought about it as a weapon sytem delivery platform (phoenix) much like the A-10 was built *around* the GAU...

Anyways... A sad day. Lot's and lot'sa history with those gals.

Hey! Maybe we should all pitch in and buy one of the de-armed, de-commissioned F-14 before they get scrapped!

Chuck_Older
02-23-2006, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Well, Kemper Boyd, our most brilliant fighter tactician, father of the F-15 and the F-16, thought the F-14 was a one-ton canary and everything that was wrong with U.S. fighter design (two-place, swing wing---mechanism just added tremendous weight, colossal, underpowered in the A series), i.e., a Bf 110, not a P-51, F-86, or F-16. No denying the F-14 looked formidable. Add to everything else, I was told by an Air Force historian (for all it was worth) the Phoenix missile was never reliable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't you mean John Boyd?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)

Billy_BigBoy
02-23-2006, 12:35 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Too bad, the Tomcat is my all-time-favorite.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8629/F14_DAWN.JPG

leitmotiv
02-23-2006, 01:11 PM
Right you are, Chuck_Older! Kemper Boyd is the CIA agent in AMERICAN TABLOID!!!!

Akronnick
02-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Sad day indeed, but ever since the end of the Cold War, the Tomcat didn't really have a job anymore. It was designed as a fleet defence fighter, to protect US carriers from Soviet bombers armed with cruise missiles in the event of all out war. The Pheonix, while a very capable weapon, isn't practical for use in anything less than World War III. Most of the time rules of engagement preclude taking action at the long ranges that the Pheonix was designed for. In fact in the thirty year history of the Tomcat program, I don't think a Phoenix was ever fired in anger.

LEXX_Luthor
02-23-2006, 06:09 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

georgeo:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Last combat mission for the Tomcat (http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,88041,00.html?ESRC=navy.nl)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Iran still flies Tomcats.


Akronnick:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In fact in the thirty year history of the Tomcat program, I don't think a Phoenix was ever fired in anger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Iranian AIM-54 Phoenix shot down a number of aircraft, most notably several Iraqi MiG-25s.

LEXX_Luthor
02-23-2006, 06:24 PM
Excellent thread over at ACIG...

F-14 Kill Record ~&gt; http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2068

WB_Outlaw
02-23-2006, 09:34 PM
Hey Lexx, are you sure about those Iranian Tomcats? I thought they ran out of spare parts and training within a fairly short time after the Shah was deposed and we stopped supporting them.

Also, I was under the impression that, like almost all of our exported aircraft, they were derated quite a bit. I would like to think that the morons that make the decisions wouldn't provide such a high technology weapon (ie, NO ONE ELSE IN THE WORLD HAS ONE) like the Phoenix to an obviously unstable partner during even the best of times.

--Outlaw.

berg417448
02-23-2006, 10:41 PM
According to the book "Iranian F-14 Tomcat Unit in Combat" during the conflict between Iran and Iraq from 1980 to 1988...Iranian F-14s fired a total of 71 AIM-54 Phoenix missiles in combat. The total number of kills achieved is not known with certainty but information in the book suggests between 30 and 40 kills. The last F-14 kill claim against Iraq is listed as being on 9 July 1988.

Also according to the book Iran was able to start producing some replacement parts for their F-14 aircraft beginning in 1982. Allegedly, the first F-14 overhaul by Iran occurred in October 1982.

LEXX_Luthor
02-23-2006, 11:07 PM
Outlaw:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hey Lexx, are you sure about those Iranian Tomcats? I thought they ran out of spare parts and training within a fairly short time after the Shah was deposed and we stopped supporting them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm sure they would run low on planes, canabilize aircraft for parts, manufacture what parts they can, smuggle what they cannot, and make Deals for outside help -- including United States -- Iran-Contra Deal possibly? I dunno. But I doubt they have many left, maybe a dozen or so tops? Its been over 25 years.

F-14A Tomcat (in Iranian Service) Part II ~&gt; http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3563

LEXX_Luthor
02-23-2006, 11:43 PM
berg:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">According to the book "Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat" during the conflict between Iran and Iraq from 1980 to 1988...Iranian F-14s fired a total of 71 AIM-54 Phoenix missiles in combat. The total number of kills achieved is not known with certainty but information in the book suggests between 30 and 40 kills. The last F-14 kill claim against Iraq is listed as being on 9 July 1988. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tom Cooper's book -- highly disputed apparently. He runs the ACIG website. I am just now learning of a wonderfully bitter debate in the west about this book along with the Iranian F-14s. I am intrigued to no end now.

LEXX_Luthor
02-25-2006, 06:25 PM
Just found this...

F-14A Tomcat (in Iranian Service) Part I ~&gt; http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=745

This is as interesting as Part II, trying to read a few pages each night. The first page is corrupted by one oversize Tomcat pic (they must be flight simmers!!) but can be read with some mouse scrolling or high resolution, the other pages load great.

jds1978
02-27-2006, 10:05 AM
the F14 was a one trick pony....Fleet Air Defense. I'm actually surprised the thing outlived the Cold War for a good 15 yrs

leitmotiv
02-27-2006, 05:58 PM
Sentimental favorite + isn't F/A-18 "range challenged" or did the new big wing take care of that?

berg417448
02-27-2006, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Sentimental favorite + isn't F/A-18 "range challenged" or did the new big wing take care of that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes..even the newer F/A-18E/F have less range than the F-14.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8629/showdown.htm

alert_1
02-28-2006, 01:06 PM
F/A18F with the new AN/APG79 AESA rdr and AMI120D "super slammers" with range over 100km and more powerfull GEF404 will finally replace F14 in its most capabilities in 2008...(also AGM158 JASSM, SHARP pods etc.)

LEXX_Luthor
02-28-2006, 01:53 PM
jds:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the F14 was a one trick pony....Fleet Air Defense. I'm actually surprised the thing outlived the Cold War for a good 15 yrs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I recall, US NAVY F-14s were used for bombing during the US/Afghan War.

New F-14 stuff I'm learning...

ACIG has fascinating stuff on F-14 used in large scale air combat...

http://www.acig.org/forum/ under Iranian Aerospace

Iran under the Shah purchased tons of spare parts and additional "storage" aircraft to be more political independent during a war. They had seen the Isrealis' daily dependency on USA during the 1973 War. This excess of spares helped to keep "unsupported" F-14s operational long enough until indeginous spare parts became available.

When Iranian (Islamic) made F-14 parts did become available, Iranian Air Force pilots refused to fly planes using these spares. The problem was solved by crating the spares in USA labeled spare parts boxes. Apparently, this added to the rumours of F-14 spares being shipped directly from the USA (more so than actually happened).

Most Iranian Air Force F-14 kills were later shifted to some "guards" political para-military force, and many Air Force F-14 pilots were arrested and executed. Many escaped to the west, and almost all chose to goto the USA.

For some reason, we (USA) still don't want to talk about Iranian F-14s, and neither do the French and Russians. It seems F-14 massacred advanced Mirage F-1s and a number of MiG-25s, everything everybody could send. Just as bad, Iran doesn't want to give credit to their own Air Force pilots who are often not considered politically reliable.

Iranian pilots have a large number of Phoenix missile kills -- the only ones in history it seems??? In Iranian service, flying F-14 is a lifetime career in itself (no promotion) -- so special are these aircraft.


F-14A Tomcat (in Iranian Service) Part I
http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=745

F-14A Tomcat (in Iranian Service) Part II
http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3563

F-14 Tomcat - Kill Record
http://www.acig.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2068

jolly_magpie
02-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Seems to me that F14 was very underpowered for most of its service life.

And it's only popular because of THAT MOVIE.

LEXX_Luthor
02-28-2006, 05:23 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

jolly:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And it's only popular because of THAT MOVIE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never thought of that before. USA Hollywood favours the arcade dogfight plane concept -- as do combat flight sim developers and combat flight simmers, so maybe you are right, and maybe that's why there has never been a F-14 sim, although F-14 makes a superb dogfight plane if the pilot is good. The F-106 never got the "dogfight" treatment from Hollywood so flight simmers never heard of it, and it even had nucular missiles and rockets. Fortunately, the Shah was no dogfight gamer but needed to stop MiG-25s flying over Iran, and F-14s and Phoenix did the job.

MrMojok
02-28-2006, 05:26 PM
"Fleet Defender" was an F14 sim. Back in the DOS days!

Seriously, it was awesome, though.

LEXX_Luthor
02-28-2006, 05:31 PM
Wow!! I googled that and it looks GREAT thanks!!

Microprose F-14 Fleet Defender <span class="ev_code_yellow">Gold</span> ~&gt; http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=390


..this does look good.

That was when Microprose could make decent games too. I still play Master Of Orion 1, from time to time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

WWSensei
02-28-2006, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loki-PF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Add to everything else, I was told by an Air Force historian (for all it was worth) the Phoenix missile was never reliable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about the reliability thing but.... One things for sure. The fleet air arm has *no* current capability that equalls what the specs of the phoenix missle system were, and ever since they have announced the phase out of the F-14/Phoenix systems I've wondered about that.

Although the F-14 was not great in all categories it was very good in many, but I've always thought about it as a weapon sytem delivery platform (phoenix) much like the A-10 was built *around* the GAU...

Anyways... A sad day. Lot's and lot'sa history with those gals.

Hey! Maybe we should all pitch in and buy one of the de-armed, de-commissioned F-14 before they get scrapped! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but the Phoenix was good *maybe* against Tu-95s and pretty damn useless otherwise. Went against many F-14s out of Oceana when I was at Langley flying Vipers. The Phoenix had a HUGE turn radius and I've strained harder taking a good dump than what Gs it took to shake even a perfectly fired "simulated" one. Compare their kills with the Phoenix versus the AIM-7 or 9.

In all my times going up against the F-14 I always felt like it was our fight to lose. Not degrading the Navy Aviators at all, but they were hampered by that aircraft in a true knife fight. Fleet Defense was their job and well suited but personally, I feared the Hornet far more than the F-14.

Only time the Tomcat was troublesome was IF I screwed up and IF the Aviator was Sierra Hotel and IF he didn't make a mistake. Most times I could even screw the pooch a couple of times and still recover.

LEXX_Luthor
02-28-2006, 07:03 PM
Iranian Phoenix took down a number of Iraqi fighters, but these were generally long range engagements and the Iraqis still flying formation when the Phoenixs hit them totally unaware, and these Iraqi aircraft had no RWR tuned for this -- classic BVR engagements. Thus, these were non-manuevering targets. F-14s also used Phoenix to down Iraqi MiG-25s which are a bit more difficult targets than Tu-95s. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If I recall reading, the Iraqis with outside help eventually learned to avoid this fate when F-14s were flying -- largely by staying away. I'm just now learning about all this, so forgive my bubbling up.

WWSensei
02-28-2006, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Iranian Phoenix took down a number of Iraqi fighters, but these were generally long range engagements and the Iraqis still flying formation when the Phoenixs hit them totally unaware, and these Iraqi aircraft had no RWR tuned for this -- classic BVR engagements. Thus, these were non-manuevering targets. F-14s also used Phoenix to down Iraqi MiG-25s which are a bit more difficult targets than Tu-95s. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If I recall reading, the Iraqis with outside help eventually learned to avoid this fate when F-14s were flying -- largely by staying away. I'm just now learning about all this, so forgive my bubbling up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem on the bubbling. ;-)

Sorry, if a fighter pilot got taken out by a Phoenix he was no pilot--he was a meatsack holding a joystick and throttle. Considering the general skill level of the Iraqi pilots I'm not surprised. It's the equivalent of getting taken out by random telephone poles being flung at you....which if you are an idiot flyer is doable.

My general feeling was if someone was meatbag enough to get taken and he died then good thing he isn't wasting oxygen and no other aircraft need be lost to them. If they survived they should be shot for losing a good aircraft.

Blottogg
03-01-2006, 02:49 AM
Kinda sad to see it go, but the maintenance was costing a fortune. Late in its life, the "Bombcat" had good multirole versatility, too. Its LANTIRN solution was better than that on the F-16 and F-15E in some ways (the Tomcat LANTIRN used an in-pod INS platform instead of the aircraft's, which gave a more stable picture to the crew.) The AIM-54 wasn't the most maneuverable missile in the world, but fired at long range, it flew a loft profile, extending range even further, as well as making the terminal approach from well above the horizon. The sequence of events from the target's point of view would be long range radar contact (range possibly delaying RWR indications), big smokey plume at launch (but too far away to see before sustainer burnout well above launch altitude), finishing with several seconds of radar illumination after the missile's own radar went active (and final RWR indications if it was programmed for the AIM-54's radar.) Out maneuvering the missile would be fairly easy... if you knew to look WAY up and see it in a timely manner. That was a pretty big "if". Oh, and to make up for the missile's various shortcomings, it had a BIG warhead. The AIM-54 was retired several years before the Tomcat IIRC, so kind of a moot point.

Both the F-14 and F-18 were/are underpowered (all variants, though the F-14B/D's less so) and low Qmax, but I respected a well flown F-14 more than a F-18. Our weapons officer and I took on a F-14 south of Incirlik 2v1. The back seater was a crusty old LtCmdr, and the pilot was a Lt IIRC. We were doing BFM, so AMRAAM/Phoenix weren't really players, and after the "fight's on" I don't think the Tomcat ever saw more than 140 kts, but he timed his switches perfectly. They would beat the engaged Viper's energy down in a turning fight, then target the extending fighter of our pair before he'd gotten enough energy to reengage. If we'd gone long enough, he'd have been a ground mort, but with two sets of experienced eyes they could essentially point in place at each of us in turn, forcing us to honor the heater threat, while keeping us close and low on energy. The Marine F-18's at Iwakuni by contrast, were fairly easy pickings A/A. Not surprising, considering their primary role was CAS, and they were good at that (because they focused their training on CAS.) The Viper's Ps more than made up for the Hornet's alpha. I remember stacking with one of them co-speed, and just out-powering him. I went up at my paltry 24 deg AoA, and he went down at some AoA well above that, unable to get his nose to point straight up at me. A couple thousand feet and a split S later, I had all the HUD film I needed. No real failing on his part, since I just took my jet somewhere his couldn't go.

Sensei, how's the back? Vipers at Langley? Were you flying with the Guard?

WWSensei
03-01-2006, 08:18 AM
Oddly enough was assigned to the 48th FIS with 4 others to assist in the transition from the 48th flying Eagles and doing intercepts to the FANG flying 16s for Air Defense. So was full active but mostly working with Guard personnel. Later went to the 86th at Ramstein and when they moved the unit to Aviano I opted to stay at Ramstein as part of the 32nd AOG doing JFACC deployments. Given my Comp Sci background and flying experience I was tasked with heading up the fragging of Vipers via the CTAPS system in the Planning cell. Did that for a couple of missions/exercises and with flying days over opted to change to 1st Combat Comm to be the head system admin shop of CTAPS.

The back sucks, as usual, but got me a really nice desk chair which properly reclines at 30 degrees as God intended... ;-)

SnapdLikeAMutha
03-01-2006, 08:58 AM
I think the fact that they required like 40-50 hours of maintainance for every 1 hour of flight time probably didn't work in their favour. Shame though, I always liked them when I was a kid.

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2006, 09:06 AM
Blottogg:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">....The AIM-54 wasn't the most maneuverable missile in the world, but fired at long range, it flew a loft profile, extending range even further, as well as making the terminal approach from well above the horizon. The sequence of events from the target's point of view would be long range radar contact (range possibly delaying RWR indications), big smokey plume at launch (but too far away to see before sustainer burnout well above launch altitude), finishing with several seconds of radar illumination after the missile's own radar went active (and final RWR indications if it was programmed for the AIM-54's radar.) Out maneuvering the missile would be fairly easy... if you knew to look WAY up and see it in a timely manner. That was a pretty big "if".... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I recall, that's how it happened -- lack of proper RWR on Iraqi MiG-23s and Mirage F-1s and very long range missile launch in the cases I'm thinking about. You never see it coming. The same situation today may face F-15/F-16 pilots in practice against F-22 -- I am NOT sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif (differnt stories, Air Force Marketing, etc, etc...).

I believe The Iraqis eventually stopped flying in such a manner that placed them at the extreme mercy of Phoenix, but the Phoenix (and HAWK batteries) still dictated the air combat over Iranian territory.

Sensai:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If they survived they should be shot for losing a good aircraft.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dunno...if you really mean that...you are implying that if US NAVY found Michael Speicher alive in Iraq, then they shot him for losing his F-18 to that MiG-25 and R-40 missile (Discussion?). There is talk of AWACS operators failing in the Speicher case. Shoot them too? Some governments do that. A number of Iranian F-14 pilots were shot in a most Stalinist way by their own government despite or even because they were successful in air combat against the Iraqis, others escaped to USA. One was assassinated in Switzerland (the F-14 defector).

WWSensei
03-01-2006, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Blottogg:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">....The AIM-54 wasn't the most maneuverable missile in the world, but fired at long range, it flew a loft profile, extending range even further, as well as making the terminal approach from well above the horizon. The sequence of events from the target's point of view would be long range radar contact (range possibly delaying RWR indications), big smokey plume at launch (but too far away to see before sustainer burnout well above launch altitude), finishing with several seconds of radar illumination after the missile's own radar went active (and final RWR indications if it was programmed for the AIM-54's radar.) Out maneuvering the missile would be fairly easy... if you knew to look WAY up and see it in a timely manner. That was a pretty big "if".... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I recall, that's how it happened -- lack of proper RWR on Iraqi MiG-23s and Mirage F-1s and very long range missile launch in the cases I'm thinking about. You never see it coming. The same situation today may face F-15/F-16 pilots in practice against F-22 -- I am NOT sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif (differnt stories, Air Force Marketing, etc, etc...).

I believe The Iraqis eventually stopped flying in such a manner that placed them at the extreme mercy of Phoenix, but the Phoenix (and HAWK batteries) still dictated the air combat over Iranian territory.

Sensai:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If they survived they should be shot for losing a good aircraft.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dunno...if you really mean that...you are implying that if US NAVY found Michael Speicher alive in Iraq, then they shot him for losing his F-18 to that MiG-25 and R-40 missile (Discussion?). There is talk of AWACS operators failing in the Speicher case. Shoot them too? Some governments do that. A number of Iranian F-14 pilots were shot in a most Stalinist way by their own government despite or even because they were successful in air combat against the Iraqis, others escaped to USA. One was assassinated in Switzerland (the F-14 defector). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was tongue in cheek...also, if I recall the idea the Speicher was taken out by a 25 is speculation and theory and far from proven...

heywooood
03-04-2006, 09:28 AM
The most beautiful jet ever....

farewell (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vulturesrow.com/images/f14book.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.vulturesrow.com/&h=218&w=288&sz=57&tbnid=FzwHcOMTxw43UM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=110&hl=en&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Df14%2Btomcat%2Bus%2Bnavy%26svnum%3D10 %26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-UShttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.giffficial_s%26sa%3DG)

Billy_BigBoy
03-08-2006, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
The most beautiful jet ever....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can only agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif