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View Full Version : Please Stop Controls Damage to often Its getting Boring!



Flydutch
03-27-2005, 11:14 AM
Hello I Still fly this Sim A Lot, Maybe to much because certain things In these Sims (The whole IL-2 Family) Are getting boring because the happen Often...To my opinion to Often.
For Instance In Ofline Campaigns If the AI Fighters Hit your A/C (Just A few Hits)It is all to often The Rudder, Elevator Or Aillerons who get Damaged beyond use! How do you shoot Controll Cables through!?
Hitting A Cable with A Bullit or Even A Cannon round? Very Unlikley Don't you think?
Guns Jamming I Understand You read About Jamming Guns A lot from real Pilot reports there quit big and complex with Ammo feed And Electric systems.
But AI Snipers Shooting Your Control Cables Say:7 Out of 10 Hits is Frustrating Especialy In Long Campaign Missions That You need To refly.
It would be Better And more realistic If It Happend Say: 2 to 10 Hits
Rudder Out You still can Fight! Ailleron Damaged You Can Get Home & Land, But Elevator Means Bail Out Or Die!

It Also seems that some aircraft suffer from certain damage much more then others like the Beaufighter will have its Gun visor shot out A lot!

Frontal hit will kill your 109 Engine Each time Seldom Happens with A Spitfire while Both Had A "weak Nose"!
Also It seems to Make no diffrence wheter your behind Armoured Glass or A open Cockpit you will get killed by 'sniping Gunners'Tothing rifle calliber guns!
(One time After I Shot down 4 Ju88's in A Minute Fliyng A Beaufighter I Was Finnaly Hit two times Wounding me Seriously by the reargunner of A Fiesler Storch!)
Campaigning wich involves A lot of Fliyng Might Be more Enjoyble If It Felt more realistic like the Current Damage model.

VF-19
03-27-2005, 11:53 AM
Funny. I never seem to notice controls being shot out. Usually because I do my best to NOT make myself an easy kill.

Also, what you think is "one hit" on your plane is really a series of hits, probably going perpendicular to your control cables, thus having a pretty darn good chance of damaging them. Also (possible realism), it isn't requried to actually sever the cable, just fray it, and the pilot (of the shot plane) and stresses will do the rest.

Weak nosed spits: Yup, can and does happen. Usually, the prop will rev out of control, or the engine is filled with holes.

Just avoid being shot (fly higher than the AI, don't fly in a straight line, keep looking around etc... ), and you'll find the sim to be much much easier.

Tater-SW-
03-27-2005, 12:01 PM
Far and away the most common damage to the F4F is losing ailerons. It's virtually impossible to get peppered with zero cowl guns without having aileron control shot out. That doesn't jibe with anything I have ever read. It's clearly overdone, IMO.

tater

Snuffly
03-27-2005, 12:22 PM
Correction: if any of ur controls get hit, ur not screwed :except if like ur aielieron and elevator at same time.

But if u get ur elevator controls shot... depending how hi u r, ur not screwed, cuz the more speed ur plane picks up the more the nose will go up (109 especially) and doing this, might give u some room to bail out closer to home.

my 2 cents...

WOLFMondo
03-27-2005, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Far and away the most common damage to the F4F is losing ailerons. It's virtually impossible to get peppered with zero cowl guns without having aileron control shot out. That doesn't jibe with anything I have ever read. It's clearly overdone, IMO.

tater <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how many pilots who had there controls shot out survived?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Da_Godfatha
03-27-2005, 12:51 PM
Forget it mate. You two types of people here, the "That never happens too me because I am good pilot" and the "Quit whining, that really happened!".

It is very frustrating online when after a good fight through FLAK, destroying the target just to get a little hit from a n00bfire and have your controls locked up. Funny this happens alot to the American aircraft.

IMHO it is also way overdone. But, I really don`t think it will get fixed.

Blackdog5555
03-27-2005, 01:08 PM
Yes, its either the Armament is too weak 151/20s or too strong Japaneses 30s or th DM is off. But, You are 100% right the DM are off. Oleg stated that they (DM) are crude. He has posted that he is going to make a a very accurate and complex damage model for BoB. I fly the P-38 alot. Every time you get hit in the back the elevavators lock up...freeze. I blast a Ki43 and set it afire and it flies perfectly in flames for 5 minutes. shred the Ki43s elevators and it rolls away in a perfect split S. So DMs need alot of work but keep your fingers crossed.

p1ngu666
03-27-2005, 01:29 PM
i got a feeling its todo with the smallness at the rear of the aircraft
p38, il2 (which always loses cables) all have a tight rear end, while 109 say its more height at the rear.

ive got a pic in a book of mossie, guy landed ith with no elivator controls, using flaps. that was on his first op http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif so it canbe done, its just a stupid thing todo irl :\

gates123
03-27-2005, 01:37 PM
Taking out a cable can be very likely since its not just a cable but a series of wheels and guiders that are strewn within the plane. If you have ever walked through a b-17 they are everywhere and if one cable wheel is hit you can be assured that whatever it is guided to is out of action

p1ngu666
03-27-2005, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
Taking out a cable can be very likely since its not just a cable but a series of wheels and guiders that are strewn within the plane. If you have ever walked through a b-17 they are everywhere and if one cable wheel is hit you can be assured that whatever it is guided to is out of action <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

think u could possibly repair the cables... but yes, theres a lot of them about

Siwarrior
03-27-2005, 01:46 PM
In a QMB ive had my elvators and ailerons shot out by bombers in a Me109 and i made it home by using the rudder as ailerons (secondary effect of rudder is roll) and using the engine to climb or dive.

Badsight.
03-27-2005, 02:35 PM
if the planes in FB had half the stuffunder the skin the real things do . . . . .

you would be more fearfull than we do now of any stay bullet going anywhere near our planes

vocatx
03-27-2005, 03:01 PM
Some battle damage can be overcome. In an off-line mission flying the Gladiator, I lost the entire right-side horizontal stabilizer and the entire vertical stabilizer. I was able to make it back to base and land the plane using the ailerons and throttle for control. I DID ground-loop on landing, but the pilot survived. If you read a lot of WWII pilot's stories, you will read of them making it back home with large parts of their aircraft shot away. It isn't impossible in real life for it to happen, and it can be done in Il-2. Just remember...this IS a SIMULATOR...that means it SIMULATES something real, it isn't perfect, but it IS the best of it's genre.

Badsight.
03-27-2005, 03:07 PM
Landed : )

http://img12.exs.cx/img12/152/nocontrolsatall7st.jpg IIRC i still had a rudder

vocatx
03-27-2005, 03:34 PM
I thought I was good doing that in a Gladiator. A 190! Badsight, that's impressive!

|CoB|_Spectre
03-27-2005, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
Landed : )

http://img12.exs.cx/img12/152/nocontrolsatall7st.jpg IIRC i still had a rudder <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this proves a point. If you got no "elevator controls damaged" message, but still managed to maintain pitch control despite having no elevators, then that would be somewhat miraculous, wouldn't you agree? I assume (possibly incorrectly) that you're flying with with realistic FM. Different aircraft exhibit different characteristics for things like pitch changes with flap deployment. Landing a damaged airplane without aileron control, using rudder input is not very difficult. Complete loss of the elevator (not just the control input) is a whole different matter. Flap/pitch coupling characteristics are more unique amongst given models. Even though Oleg has stated there is no difference between AI and human FM, I have seen AI-controlled aircraft perform some rather incredible maneuvers after losing a major control surface, maneuvers not usually duplicable by even experienced human pilots. When you consider the actual area, say, within a fuselage, occupied by control cables, it is but a fraction of the total volume. It is not so far-fetched that the likelihood of a severed cable/pulley/bellcrank is statistically less likely than the game would suggest. Keep in mind that the DM report of "ailerons/elevators/rudder damaged" is a fairly recent thing. Early in FB, as I recall, a DM was introduced with one of the patches that produced a serious handling problem, usually a strong right wing-down effect IIRC. It was retracted by the next patch. Reading first-person accounts of downing aircraft would suggest more likely "killing" or disabling damage was to the pilot, engine, or fuel plumbing in the wing root rather than shooting out their controls. Perhaps the BoB-influenced v4.0 will address these issues.

TX-EcoDragon
03-27-2005, 06:54 PM
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I think this proves a point. If you got no "elevator controls damaged" message, but still managed to maintain pitch control despite having no elevators, then that would be somewhat miraculous, wouldn't you agree? >>>>>


Not really. . . generally in the real world there is actually pretty good pitch, or more aptly, altitude control with just throttle control. That isn't to say that this wouldn't be a serious emergency, but I wouldn't simply bail out without a little evaluation of the situation. . . unless I was so low as to not have the altitude to evaluate things before going too low, or too fast to bail.

For one thing, in the real world you may simply have a single cable cut, which means that you may actually still have full control if that surface has trim (trim the direction that you can't move the surface, then simply hold the stick where you need it against that out of trim pressure). If you have both cables cut you may still have the trim on that surface, which while cumbersome, will still afford adequate control in most desings. If the surface is jammed that is another story, in this instance you will need to factor in the position of the surface when the jamming occured. You may be able to use trim in reverse if a tab is used as the trim device, though this doesn't work all that well unless the tab is very large. If the elevator surface jams in low cruise speed level flight or when pitching up during maneuvering then you are probably in good shape to rtb. If the surface is jammed at postition that requires high speed, or very low speed to maintain level flight then you will have a very high landing speed or a very high chance of stalling in each case respectively. Generally flaps should not be used at all in the real world unless a known pitch change is expected to improve the situation. . . it may be worth a try in a high speed jamming situation. . . just try it at altitude.

Now if the rudder jams in a defflected state, it is critical to enter a slip and avoid the skid at all costs, keep a healthy margin of speed over the stall speed (and factor in the effects of the slip on airspeed indications),
avoid configuration changes if possible (other than gear) and just expect a ground loop unless you can find a crosswind runway to land on.

same deal with the ailerons, if they are jammed deflected, enter a slip, and do as above.

In the sim the surfaces seem to go towards neutral values isntead of freezing in place as expected, this makes the event a little less unique each time it happens.

If the throttle linkage is jammed or cut you can use the mixtrue control as a throttle, pull it towards idle/cutoff and power will decrease, pull a little more and the engien will shut down, push it back in a bit and the engine will fire right back up (doesn't work like this in the sim) in the olden days this was the only means of engine control on some aircraft.

Now, in the sim most of these procedures don't really work as they do in the real world. We don't have to worry about the surfaces being stuck in a position other than neutral, so usually we find that we have to land fast in the sim. I try to establish final approach with takeoff flaps and a partial power set, that way I can add or remove either to control the descent, and I usually drop full flap right before touchdown to slow the descent just a bit more. . . of course with wing damage it can be a little on the risky side. . .so again, that falls into the category of early evaluation of the situation before deciding to comit to descending to an altitude below the minimal bailout height.

stubby
03-28-2005, 06:34 AM
Yes it's frustrating to get your controls shut out but how many times does one place himself in a position to be shot? I can honestly say that 99% of the times I've been shot where critical damage was inflicted, I deserved it. Nobody can say whether or not the control damage modeled in the Il2 is over-top but nobody can argue the simple fact of being riddled with bullets because one does something stupid in virtual combat. For example - flying into a furball and start turning. Odds are you're going to get sniped by the new-n-improved AI. Furballing over an enemy base is bad because you'll most likely get pegged by enemy ack-ack. Head on passes against vet or ace AI - not smart. I guess what I'm trying to say is instead of beating your brains up about you perceive to be uber-control damage modeling, examine why you're being shot. If you do honest evaluation of your flying style and the descisions you make in virtual combat, then you'll come to realize that you can most likely avoid ever being hit (thus avoiding the damaged control surface scenario). The DM won't be changed so it must be the pilot that changes if you expect to rack up a glorious career.

Tater-SW-
03-28-2005, 08:47 AM
Again, the control damage is overdone ON A FEW AIRCRAFT. If it were the same for all aircraft, it would be an engine limitation, or intent. The fact that a F4F takes aileron damage in excess to all other kinds of damage in my experience, particularly compared to other similar aircraft, that says to me it is a bug. Like the cable hit box is bigger than it sould be, or all the other planes are too small.

I can fly many other planes and get hammered with .30 cal (usually diving away from zeros that weren't possible to shake in even wing-shedding dives :-/ ). Only in the planes from the Iron Works do I invariably lose control authority. Not the control itself, BTW, that doesn't happen unless they get 20mm on me (very rare).

It isn't a matter of the F4F being so tough that I absorb a huge amount of damage, yet the only thing I lose is a cable, it's usually after barely getting pinged the first time. I checked tracks, too, it's not just a perception based upon hit noise.

tater

|CoB|_Spectre
03-28-2005, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
. . . generally in the real world... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand, but we're talking about this sim as modeled. If you re-read my post, notice I said, "...despite having no elevators". It doesn't matter if you're missing one strand of cable, half a cable or all that stuff is fully intact. Without the surface, there is no trim tab because it departed the airframe along with the elevator. Sure, you can still affect pitch with power changes, but using it with enough precision to make a safe landing gets dicey even under the best of conditions. In general aviation, you have no other choice and bailing out, which has its own inherent risks, is not an option. In combat, the go/no-go decision on whether to stick with the airplane or bail would have to be weighed against other factors such as, "are other enemy aircraft pecking away at me while I'm trying to sort this out?" or "do I have sufficient altitude to bailout?", etc. Good flight training should include, IMHO, some orientation and practice on alternate ways to maintain control of the aircraft should something like a control cable or rod were to break. Taking it all the way down to landing, however, is not generally advised due to the risks involved.

mortoma
03-28-2005, 06:12 PM
The other night I was flying a Yak-9B, ( which I had stuck in the dat files with the Sturmovik so I could fly campaigns in it ) and I was attacking an airbase. All of a sudden I got a flak hit which took out all three controls!! The part I hated the most was not the loss of the controls but about three secnds later I got hit in the engine. I happened to be pointed in the right direction to get back over my lines and was able to fly towards them, maintaining my altitude by throttle and by quickly modulating my flaps up and down when needed. Indeed I was able to get close to my lines but since my engine deteriorated rapidly, I was forced to ditch just short of the lines. So it was only the engine hit that killed me, had it not been for that I would have been able to maintain enough altitude to bail. This is what I had planned before the engine damage.

Tater-SW-
03-28-2005, 08:31 PM
Odd situations in any plane that gets shot up are not unexpected top me. What is is that in a couple types (the F4Fs, FM-2, and F6F)I see a disproportionate number of control linkages shot out compared to other aircraft. That last part is critical, compared to other aircraft. I've flown many many hours in PF, and all the planes. The Grumman birds are really glass jawed on control cables. RL stories talk about planes coming back with many hundreds of .30 cal holes in them. F4F drivers would lower the seat, make themselves small, and hide behind the pilot warmor while the plane was riddled with 7.7mm. That would never happen to me in PF, a couple hits, then no controls. All it takes is one slightly too large hit area.

tater