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Doolittle81
01-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Just curious if everyone, especially Offliners, is aware of the great progress taking place in making the IL2 AI aircraft actually considerably "intelligent"?

Doolittle81
01-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Just curious if everyone, especially Offliners, is aware of the great progress taking place in making the IL2 AI aircraft actually considerably "intelligent"?

DuxCorvan
01-24-2009, 01:37 PM
Progress? Where? When? Apart from better vertical fighting, AI goes on and on being quite lame, competent only through blatant cheating and blotchy workarounds.

SeaFireLIV
01-24-2009, 01:51 PM
I haven`t tried it yet, but in my experience AI is extremely subjective. When a modder says `I`ve fixed AI` others get into am `AI is wonderful` frenzy even when it isn`t.

I`ve seen it happen so many times. One example was with MTW2 and some modder said his AI was `brilliant` and `way above` the default. he even got arguing with the original AI dev about it.

I tried it and found, while it was better at certain things (like flanking) it suffered in other areas, especially when involving TWO AI armies where one army wouldn`t shoot or just froze. when I mentioned these problems (against a backdrop of boos from his acolytes), he indignantly told me to just play the game on a Timer!

I am always very suspect on any Modder who says they improve AI over the Developer as AI is extremely hard to get right and you need to know the program inside-out to succeed.

JG52Uther
01-24-2009, 01:54 PM
Don't know unless you try! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

skarden
01-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Come on now,he never said he fixed it,just that he's trying to improve it.big difference.I'v been playing with most of the beta's and it is an improvment,definitely more intelligent and fun to fly against,but also definitely not pefect.And to be honest,anyone expecting the AI to behave just like real humans is not being realistic.they cant do that on super computers yet so its a bit silly to expect 6year old flight sim AI to do it.He's doing the best he can to improve the game for other offliners(%50 of my playing) and doing a good job so far.

Seafire,instead of basing your experence on a completly different game,which actually reminds me of when the mods first appered and everybody lost the plot cause "other games" were messed up that way,how about just giving it a try yourself(its a very small file) and make an informed opinion instead of basing it on something that has nothing to do with IL-2.
Hell if something bothers you about it tell the gent(certificate,see below)doing the mod.He's listening to all the ppl when it comes to problems with it and trying very hard to get it all working well.It'd certainly be more helpfull then posting it down here putting it down when you havn't even tried it yet.Remember it's still a beta.

Not trying to lecture(really I'm not)but your being very dismissive of something that you havn't even tried and ppl have begged to be looked at for years.

Dux:finaly takin the plunge eh?

Anyhow Doolittle,best idea is just to try it and have a play with it and see what you think,if you dont like it's very easy to remove.gd luck.

mortoma
01-24-2009, 03:09 PM
I have been flying IL2 offline ( mostly ) since the first demo came out. And even if AI could be made twice as effective it still would not be nearly as good as flying online against humans. I have flown against noobs online who were just starting out that are way better than the AI are on 'Ace' settings. The ONLY way in which ( and I do mean only way ) human pilots online are inferior is because you can sneak up on them and surprise them, while this is impossible against the AI. If you are on the six of a AI plane they always know it and dodge just as you get your sight pipper on them. I take advantage of this when I play online against people. But it's one of the few online advantages I have other than being a crack shot. But that advantage is often compensated for by online lag, which can make me miss.

Dustysquareback
01-24-2009, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma: The ONLY way in which ( and I do mean only way ) human pilots online are inferior is because you can sneak up on them and surprise them, while this is impossible against the AI. If you are on the six of a AI plane they always know it and dodge just as you get your sight pipper on them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And THAT is exactly one of the things he set out to fix.

Honestly, you guys. Try the damn mod. THEN complain. Sheesh.

Bo_Nidle
01-24-2009, 04:07 PM
trying the 1.4 AI mod and quite impressed. The AI will now try a lot more tactics other than repetitive barrel rolls. They will also BnZ when the situation calls for it.

Try the mods, it's breathed new life into this sim.

DKoor
01-24-2009, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
trying the 1.4 AI mod and quite impressed. The AI will now try a lot more tactics other than repetitive barrel rolls. They will also BnZ when the situation calls for it.

Try the mods, it's breathed new life into this sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Blindman-
01-24-2009, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
I have been flying IL2 offline ( mostly ) since the first demo came out. And even if AI could be made twice as effective it still would not be nearly as good as flying online against humans. I have flown against noobs online who were just starting out that are way better than the AI are on 'Ace' settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have heard this comment before and I do not agree. Put a noob up against an Ace AI in an identical plane and the noob will not survive.

stalkervision
01-24-2009, 07:13 PM
The new ai is like the old ai only newer.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

certificate
01-24-2009, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Progress? Where? When? Apart from better vertical fighting... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, it almost seems like you answered your own question.

Seriously though, it's still very beta, not even remotely close to being completed, but these things do need to be bug tested along the way. You might want to give it a few weeks of development before you dismiss it.

Or don't. Whatever. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Enforcer572005
01-24-2009, 11:42 PM
I'm still messing with it, and it does seem that the AI do fly alot better and try new stuff. I saw an LA-7 on vet skill go vertical, and just before his energy ran out, he kicked rudder, did a wing-over, and came down on an AI opponent firing.

I've seen a few AI wingmen of AI element leaders actually do more than just follow their leaders around and do some shooting, but still haven't seen enough of this to make a judgement. It seems that my own wingmen still seem to ignore the "cover me" command, which they obeyed rather well a few patches ago. That is the highest AI priority to me.

ace1328fw190
01-25-2009, 12:47 AM
srry guys for the stupid question, but where a re you guys getting these AI patches? as much as i love online, offline is just as much fun and im tired of going through the same thing evrytime i play offline? thx guys, and i dont think that the AI will ever be perfect, thats my opinioin though

CrazySchmidt
01-25-2009, 12:59 AM
I've tried this mod and am pleased with the difference that it makes. Mind you that may be because I am so tired of the original AI routines that have steadily been working at driving me Crazy!!.

Cheers, CS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Toasted_Toad
01-25-2009, 01:29 AM
Hi Guys,
I'm a relative latecomer to the Mods but it really has made it a much more immersive experience.
Certificate's AI Mod is a real gem. I'm spending more & more time playing and eagerly waiting for his next release.
Many "Warm Fuzzies" to Cert. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif
Cheers,
TT.
PS I don't come out from under my rock to post often, but this deserved it.

Aaron_GT
01-25-2009, 03:09 AM
Crazy Schmidt: please sort out your sig.

Uufflakke
01-25-2009, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:

It seems that my own wingmen still seem to ignore the "cover me" command, which they obeyed rather well a few patches ago. That is the highest AI priority to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noticed the same thing since I installed this mod a few days ago. Usually my wingmen followed me till I gave the command to attack.
Now they start their attack when the enemy is at a certain distance. It looks like if my wingmen get an energyboost all of a sudden and go high up and are far away of me in a few seconds. AI still seems to be perfectly trimmed.

But the positive thing is the opponent makes some other moves to shake you of and rear gunners are not that perfect shooters anymore.
I will see what this AI mod has more to offer.

CrazySchmidt
01-25-2009, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Crazy Schmidt: please sort out your sig. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would you like me to do with it? It has been like this for quite a while. What has all of a sudden become inappropriate with it?

CS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
01-25-2009, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
They will also BnZ when the situation calls for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
They do that in the standard version also, given the proper aircraft (although they extend first and climb later, as opposed to human B&Z where pilots often fire and climb immediately, so he verticals are confined into a smaller airspace).

I think the standard AI sucks in the evasive manouvering, but having said that, the boring barrel rolls were their best bet in ditching bullets. If now they start split-S-ing and turning, and zoom climbing with insufficient energy, it will also make them easier to get and shoot down... which I guess is a popular improvement for many.

Perhaps the best AI improvement could have been done in the gunner's area... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


By that way, I doubt that even the best AI could come close to the thrill of fighting a human opponent and the rush of adrenaline there.

DuxCorvan
01-25-2009, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skarden:
Dux:finaly takin the plunge eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I'm not taking anything. Didn't know it was a "mod". So, well, I hope you hack-leberries get a better AI. I'm not in the hack business.

Anyway, I doubt the worst part of AI can be improved. I mean:

-Never overheating, never breaking apart, never blacking-out, never overspeeding, all-seeing omniscient AI.

-Not avoiding abrupt changes in terrain level and mountain-eating in automated, scripted maneuvers.

-The silly roll and roll and roll and roll.

-AI target fixation, ignoring chance targets, lone psychos chasing you to the end of the world.

-One-hit-between-the-eyes Robocop gunnery.

Is something of that fixed?

DD_crash
01-25-2009, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ace1328fw190:
srry guys for the stupid question, but where a re you guys getting these AI patches? as much as i love online, offline is just as much fun and im tired of going through the same thing evrytime i play offline? thx guys, and i dont think that the AI will ever be perfect, thats my opinioin though </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hello there, the clue is in the word MOD http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif google All Aircraft Arcade

Lt_Letum
01-25-2009, 04:58 AM
Some.
The new AI don't overheat because they never use enough throttle to overheat now.
They don't roll all the time either. Hardly at all.
The gunnery seams a little too weak for my taste at the moment.

The wingmen shoot now instead of just following th leader.

FlatSpinMan
01-25-2009, 05:18 AM
Yeah, quite a bit of that is being/has been addressed.

No one is saying "Hey - this mod makes AI fully human in intelligence." All they are saying is that there are more routines and a bit more randomness to the pre-existing AI patterns. That's it.

skarden
01-25-2009, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Progress? Where? When? Apart from better vertical fighting, AI goes on and on being quite lame, competent only through blatant cheating and blotchy workarounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well it's just from that statement it seemed you had formed an opinion from trying it.seems a big assumption since you havn't and won't try it.Mind you of course thats more then fair enough and totally your decision,it was just the way it was worded i think.my bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

That said,it is a big improvment i think.It should be interesting to see how it'll turn out once he's had a bit more time to play with it some more http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
It's certainly generating a lot of interest.The threads not even a week old and already over 30,000 views!

AllorNothing117
01-25-2009, 06:26 AM
So what MOD exactly is everyone talking about? I'm very interested in it because the normal IL-2 AI is one of 2 things I don't like about this game. The second is compresability in the P-38 at low altidtude, if you must know.

Seriously though, without those two things it'd be flawless1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif :P

ploughman
01-25-2009, 06:48 AM
Tried it, it's different that's for sure, less predictable and the AI can be jumped, got absolutely raped by an AI Spitfire. Bit humbling really as it's been a long time since the AI's had the better of me. If you MOD definately give the 1.6 a go.

Uufflakke
01-25-2009, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
So what MOD exactly is everyone talking about?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Search for All Aircraft Arcade and go their WIP-Beta-Mods Download section.

DuxCorvan
01-25-2009, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by skarden:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Progress? Where? When? Apart from better vertical fighting, AI goes on and on being quite lame, competent only through blatant cheating and blotchy workarounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems a big assumption since you havn't and won't try it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't understand: I didn't know there was such mod. I thought he was referring to vanilla 4.09b or before. Hence my question: "Where? When?"

And no, I'm not using an illegal mod, but I think is good to know that AI can be tweaked (if Maddox encrypted code could be opened with Maddox explicit permission, and that's what hasn't happened yet.)

Bearcat99
01-25-2009, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CrazySchmidt:
What would you like me to do with it? It has been like this for quite a while. What has all of a sudden become inappropriate with it?

CS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one probably noticed it before.. but if you either drop one of the MM pics or move it over so thast they are on the same line under the M4t logo.. .. y'know what I mean? We dont always catch these things right off... but it is a bit out of whack.. not a major deal but one that ypou'll have to fix.. if for no other reason that we havce had to do the same to others... No trying to bust your chops at all CS.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:

No, I'm not taking anything. Didn't know it was a "mod". So, well, I hope you hack-leberries get a better AI. I'm not in the hack business.

Anyway, I doubt the worst part of AI can be improved. I mean:

-Never overheating, never breaking apart, never blacking-out, never overspeeding, all-seeing omniscient AI.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Partly addressed.... I haven't seen one break apart like we do yet... I dont know whether or not they overheat... </span>


-Not avoiding abrupt changes in terrain level and mountain-eating in automated, scripted maneuvers.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Haven't seen that yet ... </span>

-The silly roll and roll and roll and roll.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Fixed</span>

-AI target fixation, ignoring chance targets, lone psychos chasing you to the end of the world.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Partly fixed... since the freindly AI is more responsive more often than before.. they can draw bandits off of you or actually clear your 6.. </span>

-One-hit-between-the-eyes Robocop gunnery.
Is something of that fixed?

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Something.... but you can still get nailed.. </span>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off.. Dux let's just cool it right here with the off the side of the lip condescending innuendo shall we..? Nothing good can come of it and I don't want that debate stirred up again so if you cant comment in the thread without the additional jargon then please.. just stay out of it.. since as you said.. you haven't and you won't... so... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for your other points... see the yellow above..

DuxCorvan
01-25-2009, 12:10 PM
Oooookaaaay... Thanks BC for the answers. As for the other 'thing', don't worry. No more windmill charging for my part... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Eppur... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I_KG100_Prien
01-25-2009, 12:27 PM
Hmm..

Tempting enough for me to find my 1946 disc and get all patched up and modded again.

Thanks for the heads up.

Sturm_Williger
01-25-2009, 01:16 PM
Well, the AI mod is up to version 1.16 by now ( 1.15 broke more than it fixed ), but the man is trying to fix and alter a lot of things and he seems to be getting them right slowly.

At least he takes on board the comments from people testing and tries to work towards them.

He seems to have reduced the accuracy of the bomber gunner AI ( for Rookie and Regular ) which is in itself a vast improvement.

It's well worth having a look and doing some testing, after all, with more testers, more will come to light quickly. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

stalkervision
01-25-2009, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by I_KG100_Prien:
Hmm..

Tempting enough for me to find my 1946 disc and get all patched up and modded again.

Thanks for the heads up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too. A much improved ai is a real nice reason to through all those patches on isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ploughman
01-25-2009, 02:15 PM
I was hit bad, lost an airleron, dove out of a fight and legged it. Collected 3 190s as I fled, after a short while it was clear they'd hunt me down so I called on my AI flight to come help, dove and turned back with the idea of delivering up my assailants to my incoming Tempests. Just before we merged I reversed again, with a view to presenting the pursuent 190s to my friends, not really expecting this scheme to work, but as I looked over my shoulder all I could see was the burning remains of 3 AI 190s falling to Earth after being vapourised. Well done new AI.

Not bad.

Bearcat99
01-25-2009, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Oooookaaaay... Thanks BC for the answers. As for the other 'thing', don't worry. No more windmill charging for my part... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you........

Treetop64
01-26-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm one of the staunch supporters of the original code. I've taken the view that most of the mods - with very few exceptions - offer only something different without actually improving anything. Now, having said that, I do have my eye on some of the maps; the Slot, the Med (though if it's a 1:1 scale it must take an eternity to load!), and of course, the enlarged Kursk map. A handful of the cockpit improvements are impressive.

Now we have this AI mod. If it is as good as it should be then I might just create a copy of my current installation and start downloading. I might...

The thing is that the AI, and playing offline, is not as bad as some think it is. Yes, as with anything else, there is room for improvement. The endless rolls are annoying and now I simply break off and climb as soon as the AI uses that tactic. It's not anything that isn't tolorable, however, and certainly isn't something that a couple of simple tags in the config file can't adjust. And you can adjust those changes between maps during your campaign - very handy when you want the AIs overall capabilities to mimick those of the real situations that took place over a lengthy period of time. Much like the shifting balance of capabilities over the four years between the Luftwaffe and the VVS.

It's been a long time since I've stopped subscribing to the argument that the AI is always better than the player. I guarantee that once you stick to one type of fighter long enough, and learn all of its limits, and actually get good at flying your chosen mount, you can beat you AI opponents. You can match their performance if you fly competently enough and they're flying similar equipment, and that's with overheat and blackouts turned on. If you're good, and flying good equipment, and the AI is flying a dog, then it should be no problem for you. Of course, if you're flying roughly equal equipment (for example, a Bf-109E vs. Yak-1) and you're handling the aircraft like a fool and not thinking about how to handle the whole of the fight, the AI will hand your backside to you every time, and you'll come in thse forums screaming bloody Mary about how the AI cheats and all the other nonsense. That is definitely more the case if you're flying against other humans...

In my court, the jury is still out on the mods. But admittely I have an eye on the AI mod. We'll see...

blairgowrie
01-26-2009, 04:48 PM
I hear you Treetop. Every time there is a new mod the Community seems to go wild. I like the new engine sounds and a few others and of course the maps, but the rest of it is a bit overwhelming and I am not sure it is a great improvement. We have a Mod Czar in our squad and I have likely offended him so I will skulk off now before he reads this.

CloCloZ
01-26-2009, 06:06 PM
Today I've installed the AI MOD 1.7 and flown some missions I created and know very well (large furballs 16 vs 16 fighters, some all-aces and others with all four kind of pilots skills).
It's too early to draw a conclusion but first impressions are very positive.

The "endless rolls" are almost gone, the most times the AI plane tries to escape using another kind of maneuver (usually a Split S).
In general, AI behaviour seems to be much more "human-like" than the standard 4.08 AI (stupid mistakes and reduced spatial awareness included! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ).
Modded AI fighters shooting skills seems to me about the same of standard AI (maybe a little bit less on head-to-head attacks by aces).
I didn't tried missions with bombers yet, so I can't say if "sniper gunners" are gone ...
The same, it's too early for me to say something about AI tactics.

All in all, having flown off-line for more than an year on standard 4.08 I can say that modded AI v1.7 is easier to deal with, at least for me, even at AI ace levels.
In fact, it seems to me that standard AI could be better for novice training, since its usually "superhuman" veterans and aces behaviour in manoeuvres (and in some case shooting, at least by aces, except deflection shooting where AI usually is very poor) leads to a steeper learning curve.

One thing that, unfortunately, seems unchanged is the "target fixation": AI planes still usually persist in following their 600m far target at 12 o'clock even if another E/A appears just 200m away at 11, flying straight in the same direction!
I consider this to be one of the "less human" behaviour of IL-2 AI, so it would be nice to have it fixed.

Even if beta and not (still?) perfect, it's a great MOD, I'm pretty sure I'll keep it on my IL-2 installation (until I'll feel the need of some more training in following "endless rolls" and other unlikely aces acrobatics, of course! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

ploughman
01-26-2009, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One thing that, unfortunately, seems unchanged is the "target fixation": AI planes still usually persist in following their 600m far target at 12 o'clock </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, one can 'drag and bag' with one's own AI wingmen using this although I prefer this fixation to spatial omniscience.