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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:36 AM
My god, it can't even climb anymore. I did a QMB with 8 pe 8 and 4 yak 9u. Passed formation at 7500 m and could not catch them. In fact, the escorts were gaining on me. The zoom and sustained climb rates of 262 seems too low in patch. Also, why do Fm vary so much? Why was the Hurr,Emil overdone, the P-47 underdone? How come its so hard to get historical FMs?

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Message Edited on 08/17/0311:35AM by mike_espo

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:36 AM
My god, it can't even climb anymore. I did a QMB with 8 pe 8 and 4 yak 9u. Passed formation at 7500 m and could not catch them. In fact, the escorts were gaining on me. The zoom and sustained climb rates of 262 seems too low in patch. Also, why do Fm vary so much? Why was the Hurr,Emil overdone, the P-47 underdone? How come its so hard to get historical FMs?

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Message Edited on 08/17/0311:35AM by mike_espo

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 03:42 AM
http://users.pandora.be/vnnet/FBforum/orig_throwup.gif

ZG77_Nagual
08-16-2003, 04:46 AM
Don't agree - the 262 had to be protected during takeoff and initial climb and landing by special squadrons of doras - it does not come into it's own until it gains altitude and speed - and keeps it. Lose airspeed and you are toast. I took one up for the first time tonight - online. Got a yak9t and two p39 q10s in the only flight I took - all flown well - the q10s were a 2v1 engagement - the yak 1v1. Trick is to go in with superior speed - fast passes and use the 262s excellent rudder and instantaneous turn to take snap-shots from very close, then zoom up as your opponent founders from losing energy evading you - stay off his beam as the 262s engines are fragile. First one took quite a few passes - second one only about three - and I followed him during his high speed evasions because noone else was around - third one - got on the first pass - all were snapshots fired with very short bursts and a yank of the stick to catch them at the start of their turns. From what I've read 262 is very very accurate now. Germans reserved it for 'experten'

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:10 AM
Perhaps you could do a test of the current Me262 climbrate, and show us if it is, in fact, too poor.

That way, people won't get away with replaying to your thread with animated barfing gifs.



The object viewer says: Climb to 6,000m: 6.8 min.
I'd try a climb speed of 300-350km/h IAS.






Message Edited on 08/15/0310:10PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:17 AM
The Me 262 is really slow now in the patch.

Oleg could you please fix this problem.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:33 AM
I already tested the topsepeeds of the Me262, and they are correct within 10km/h.

The acceleration may be incorrect, but there is very little data available on that. But it is well known that the Me-262 had very poor acceleration.



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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:37 AM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Don't agree - the 262 had to be protected during
- takeoff and initial climb and landing by special
- squadrons of doras - it does not come into it's own
- until it gains altitude and speed - and keeps it.
- Lose airspeed and you are toast. I took one up for
- the first time tonight - online. Got a yak9t and two
- p39 q10s in the only flight I took - all flown well
- - the q10s were a 2v1 engagement - the yak 1v1.
- Trick is to go in with superior speed - fast passes
- and use the 262s excellent rudder and instantaneous
- turn to take snap-shots from very close, then zoom
- up as your opponent founders from losing energy
- evading you - stay off his beam as the 262s engines
- are fragile. First one took quite a few passes -
- second one only about three - and I followed him
- during his high speed evasions because noone else
- was around - third one - got on the first pass - all
- were snapshots fired with very short bursts and a
- yank of the stick to catch them at the start of
- their turns. From what I've read 262 is very very
- accurate now. Germans reserved it for 'experten'
-
You are correct, but you are forgetting one point: Once 262 is in the air, its clean aerodynamic shape allows it to keep energy more than the less clean piston engine aircraft. In fact the 262 has a better sustained turn rate than most piston engined aircraft due to its aerodynamic shape. Not to say that it can turn and burn, but it loses energy way to easily. Its zoom climb is pitiful. Its sustained climb rate is less than it should be. I am not about to waste time and test this, Im sure it is already known. Online, it is not meant to dogfight. Im sure Oleg changed it to please online players. However, to recreate historic scenarios with the 262 in its intended role as bomber destroyer, it fails miserably after patch. Try it and see!!!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:46 AM
You are missing the point!!!!! It has nothing to do with acceleration. It has to do with its climb performance which is determined by its aerodynamic characteristics. I agree that the Jumo turbo was poor in acceleration. We all know this. I am saying that once at speed, the 262 will not lose energy quickly due to its aerodynamic shape. After patch, Its sustained climb rate is p*ss poor. Its zoom climb rate is lousy too. I welcome the fact that it now can fly on one engine. I agree also that it would lose energy in tight turns. However, it had a better sustained turn rate than many piston engined fighters. It just had a larger turning circle.

Try the scenario I just explained: Do a QMB with heavy bombers whatever you want, start at no adv, allow them to pass you headon and try to catch them. See what happens.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:49 AM
Me-262 Climb test results:

Object viewer= 6000m in <font color=red>6:48</font>

100% fuel (95% throttle, 380IAS) = <font color=red>7:11 </font>
50% fuel (95% throttle, 380IAS) = <font color=red>5:52</font>

------------

So with 100% fuel, you can get very close to the correct climb time. If I knew the correct climb speed (I just guessed 380IAS) I may have been able to match the correct time. I had to use 95% power to avoid overheat.

With 50% fuel, you can easily beat the climb time by about a minute.

I'd say this is very accurate. Not "way off".

I have no problem with questioning the FMs (god knows I do it all the time) but at least do an actual test before making wild claims about something being wrong. Just because its not performing the way that you want it to perform, doesn't make it wrong.





Message Edited on 08/15/0310:54PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:56 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Me-262 Climb test results:
-
- Object viewer= 6000m in 6.8 minutes.
-
- 100% fuel (95% throttle, 380IAS)= 7:11
- 50% fuel (95% throttle, 380IAS)= 5:52

the 262 had 1220m/min climb rate or close to 4000ft/min.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 05:58 AM
I have also read the 1200m a minute (inital) climb rate on a number of web sites, but I haven't been able to substantiate it with any other info (like a chart or something).

Besides, even if the initial climb is 1200m/min, it will reduce as you get higher. So 6:48 seems plausible in that respect.


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Message Edited on 08/15/0311:01PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 06:07 AM
StG, just try the scenario I layed out. Do QmB or use the Full mission builder. I played this scenario before and after the patch, before the patch I could easily catch the Pe8s, afterwards I could'nt even gain on them!!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 06:17 AM
Ya I know, the 262 rate of climb is less than before.

In V1.0 the Me-262 was so overmodelled I couldn't fly it with a straight face. Going 1000km/h in a straight line, turn on a dime, then zoom climb into space /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 06:22 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Ya I know, the 262 rate of climb is less than
- before.
-
- In V1.0 the Me-262 was so overmodelled I couldn't
- fly it with a straight face. Going 1000km/h in a
- straight line, turn on a dime, then zoom climb into

Yeah, but I got the feeling of why the 262 could have changed the course of the airwar. Now I feel its just marginally better than a prop fighter. All Im saying is it should not lose as much energy in a climb. Everything else in 1.1 is great. Maybe a little better sound.....

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:26 AM
The 262 is off for sure in some parts. In others it has been well-corrected.

In 1.0 it was √¬łvermodelled in climb @higher alts (got up to 40m/s), top speed @6500m (over 1100km/h), low speed turn plus high speed elevator and accelleration. It lacked roll rate and MK 108 punch.

Now in 1.1b it's accelleration seems to be fixed. You really need cover now. Climb's also fixed, but it's a bit too bad now. Low speed turn has been neutered, it's now a brick at low speeds. Elevator isn't that much effective anymore. Roll is fixed and the 108s do some damage.
What's off is the top speed @alt. On the deck it's OK. I can even get ~760 with those rockets, although they still seem to leech very much energy, especially in climb and turns. Very much off is it's high alt characteristics. Try climbing up to 11700m, or get above 800km/h @9000 or 10000m. You WILL fail. ~9000m seems to be the peak in 1.1b. But now the most annoying stuff: It's zoom climb has been neutered completely, that's why most ppl say it can't climb anymore. It can't keep it's E. Situation: You in 262, 800 TAS, La-7 with 600 TAS @6. You start to climb, fist gently not to loose too much E and not to shorten the La's path too much. Your speed very rapidely drops to 500km/h. You can't get away.... 2000m higher you reached your climb speed of ~450km/h, have to throttle down to 90% not to overheat, even if you just make a 15-25‚? climb. Each plane climbs best in a certain angle which may differ in various altitudes. If you keep that one in a zoom climb, it's a flat zoom, but the most effective. You still make use of your lift and the gravity doesn'T pull you down as much as if you're pulling up 90‚?. FYI: 190s and 109s do zoom better in 1.1b, so seem to do most props.


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ZG77_Nagual
08-16-2003, 01:42 PM
Well - ONline I found it to have excellent zoom accel in a shallow dive and energy retention in turns. I pushed the envelope a few times in the dogfights and was still able to get out vertically. Level accel and sustain in climbs seems to improve at higher speeds - like the engines become more efficient. Based on all I've read it's pretty darned close right now. I actually enjoyed flying in. In 1.0 I was easily able to kill 8 ace la7s, yak3s or whatever offline while eating dinner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif That's just silly.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:15 PM
kids like mike_espo and the likes are *NEVER* going to be satisfied with any patch. that is obvious.

I have 1 suggestion for mike_espo, code a me262 flightsim yourself, then and ONLY then are you going to be satisfied with the performance of the me262. may I be the first one to congratulate you with your big task ahead.

now, stay away from ORR with this childish demands.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 02:42 PM
From Fritz Wendels notes on flying the Me262

It should be noted that the 262 had an ASI that was altitude compensated. Above 400kph, TAS = IAS

optimum climb speeds

0m - 475kph
2km - 500kph
4km - 525kpm
6km - 550kph
8km - 600kph
10km - 650kph


StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Perhaps you could do a test of the current Me262
- climbrate, and show us if it is, in fact, too poor.
-
- That way, people won't get away with replaying to
- your thread with animated barfing gifs.
-
-
-
- The object viewer says: Climb to 6,000m: 6.8 min.
- I'd try a climb speed of 300-350km/h IAS.
-


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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:00 PM
Edited by Vengeanze due to profanity. Using wildcards to bypass filter won't save you from our wrath.



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Message Edited on 08/16/0311:13PM by Vengeanze

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:09 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Freshness: Mind your own F*cking business. You
- F***in Pric*


that's a real admirable post you made there.
nice to see you know how to behave on public forums.

ps: your PM was even funnier /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif thanks!

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:27 PM
Fresshness wrote:
- mike_espo wrote:
-- Freshness: Mind your own F*cking business. You
-- F***in Pric*
-
-
- that's a real admirable post you made there.
- nice to see you know how to behave on public forums.
-
- ps: your PM was even funnier /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif thanks!
-
-

Read all my posts. you as hat. You will see that I concede certain points about the patched 262. Zoom and Sustained climb rates are wrong. Do some friggin research and read some history about the jet before you callously attack someone. By the way, Im 37 froccio stupido!!

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Message Edited on 08/16/0310:34AM by mike_espo

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:42 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Read all my posts. you as hat. You will see that I
- concede certain points about the patched 262. Zoom
- and Sustained climb rates are wrong. Do some friggin
- research and read some history about the jet before
- you callously attack someone. By the way, Im 37
- froccio stupido!!

froccio stupido, now that's funny. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 04:45 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Well - ONline I found it to have excellent zoom
- accel in a shallow dive and energy retention in
- turns. I pushed the envelope a few times in the
- dogfights and was still able to get out vertically.
- Level accel and sustain in climbs seems to improve
- at higher speeds - like the engines become more
- efficient.
I don't think jet engines become more efficient (depends on the definition of "efficient"). Most jet engines still drop thrust at higher speeds. It's just that piston/ prop engines drop thrust way more quickly as speed increases, compared to jets.

You hear people talk about a jet's THRUST that's because it remains fairly constant as speed changes , and hear about a piston/ prop's POWER because it remains fairly constant as speed changes. So a jet should be more efficient than pistons at higher speeds.

Hope this helps.

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 07:44 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- StG, just try the scenario I layed out. Do QmB or
- use the Full mission builder. I played this scenario
- before and after the patch, before the patch I could
- easily catch the Pe8s, afterwards I could'nt even
- gain on them!!!


Maybe I shouldn't enter this one but:

I set up the qmb-2pe8's and me in 262. Head on, as I pass them I pull up( closing speed was about 540 and overheat set in when I pulled up into the immelman. They were about 2.8 km behind--err in front of me at the time when I commenced the chase. On the completion of the immmelman I had slowed to about 130 kph.

I started the chase and caught up to them in about 10-12 sec (didn't time it but it was not very long) and took one down.

I see no problems here. This is after the patch.

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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 08:26 PM
voyager_663rd wrote:I started the chase and caught up to them in about
- 10-12 sec (didn't time it but it was not very long)
- and took one down.
-

Hmmmm. Try to dive and hit them from below. I found I could not catch them. I had the Pe-8s doing 300kph. I also added 4 yak 9u as escort. When I turned around, the yaks were gaining on me and I had to dive away to avoid being hit. I have read from a number of 262 veterans including adolph galland that they could easily overtake anything in a climb. After the patch, I could not even overtake 1940 vintage bombers. I replayed the scenario 3 times with the same result.

-


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XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 08:56 PM
Lol all those guys that flew cheap planes, are now all whinning around, sorry guys but reality has come to you lmao

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

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ZG77_Nagual
08-16-2003, 09:07 PM
Mike - I think you have to be moving along pretty good before the 262 will sustain it's climb - the trick is to be and stay fast - I believe the best climb speeds were posted earlier in the thread.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-16-2003, 09:12 PM
before any one could fly the me262, now at least u requiere some skill

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 12:32 AM
i thought the same as u did with the 262 not climbing, turning well enough, or having adequet speed. i felt that prop planes could easily shoot it down. this was untill i flew with the plane, and got used to its flight characteristics. now nearly no prop plane can ever shoot me down when im in it. the me-262 is modeled correctly, give it some time, fly with it a bit. i love that plane now and it is unstopable in the right hands.



Message Edited on 08/16/0303:34PM by jj8325

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:50 AM
0m - 475kph
2km - 500kph
4km - 525kpm
6km - 550kph
8km - 600kph
10km - 650kph

Using these climb speeds, I got a climb time of 7:51. Thats much worse than the 7:11 I got using 380IAS.

So the climb rate is basically correct, but apparently the optimum climb speed is not historically correct.

Again, using 95% due to overheat.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 01:09 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- My god, it can't even climb anymore. I did a QMB
- with 8 pe 8 and 4 yak 9us. Passed formation at 7500
- m and could not catch them. In fact, the escorts
- were gaining on me. the climb rate of 262 is WAY off
- in patch!!!!
-
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At first i thought the same but once u learn the new fm and be careful with ue e bleed its just as good as in fb1.0

One thing i find is that once u get to a good speed u can keep it easily, when turning go steeply upwards to start with then put the nose at a down attitude when finishing the turn then ull keep the speed.....

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:22 PM
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Message Edited on 08/17/0302:22PM by tlocus