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View Full Version : P-40, still has "one hit kill" engine.



mortoma
02-08-2005, 03:38 PM
This has been covered many times before but the P-40 engine DM is just awful. But yet Russian birds with similar engine type can still take a beating with no damage to the engine at all.
I refuse to whine but this is something that should have been fixed long ago. And if you ask me the 109s have a similar problem, as do the P-51s.
But the Russian planes?? Not on your life.
Yes, they were inline water-cooled jobs but a mean look should not kill them. But if the they feel they must model them thusly, they should at least give the Russian planes an equally vulnerable engine, just to be fair about it. Historical accounts from the Russians, British and Americans suggest the P-40 Allison was more on the tough side than the weakling side, as far as ability to absorb punishment.

mortoma
02-08-2005, 03:38 PM
This has been covered many times before but the P-40 engine DM is just awful. But yet Russian birds with similar engine type can still take a beating with no damage to the engine at all.
I refuse to whine but this is something that should have been fixed long ago. And if you ask me the 109s have a similar problem, as do the P-51s.
But the Russian planes?? Not on your life.
Yes, they were inline water-cooled jobs but a mean look should not kill them. But if the they feel they must model them thusly, they should at least give the Russian planes an equally vulnerable engine, just to be fair about it. Historical accounts from the Russians, British and Americans suggest the P-40 Allison was more on the tough side than the weakling side, as far as ability to absorb punishment.

pourshot
02-08-2005, 07:33 PM
Yep the engine is it's glass jaw, but what can we do I doubt it will get fixed now.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-08-2005, 07:47 PM
I wonder how big an issue changing an aspect of a damage model would be. From recent reports we are getting at least one, maybe two patches, if enough people send some tracks, screenies, whatever to Oleg, maybe they can sneak it in.

crazyivan1970
02-08-2005, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
This has been covered many times before but the P-40 engine DM is just awful. But yet Russian birds with similar engine type can still take a beating with no damage to the engine at all.
I refuse to whine but this is something that should have been fixed long ago. And if you ask me the 109s have a similar problem, as do the P-51s.
But the Russian planes?? Not on your life.
Yes, they were inline water-cooled jobs but a mean look should not kill them. But if the they feel they must model them thusly, they should at least give the Russian planes an equally vulnerable engine, just to be fair about it. Historical accounts from the Russians, British and Americans suggest the P-40 Allison was more on the tough side than the weakling side, as far as ability to absorb punishment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3351042562

e-mail you findings to PF@1C.RU That would be your best bet.

Cheers!

chris455
02-09-2005, 01:01 AM
What Crazyivan said. Oleg is looking for just such a bug; when I was corresponding to him on this very subject, he said he could not duplicate the problem (and at that point, neither could I)
SO- if you "got track", send it in.

msalama
02-09-2005, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But yet Russian birds with similar engine type can still take a beating with no damage to the engine at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bulls**t. Depends on which way Lady Luck is smiling at the moment. One lucky hit - just one tiny bullet - and your prop governor is broken.

This happens with Russian planes as well. Has in fact happened to me plenty of times, in both the Yak and La.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I refuse to whine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah? So why are you whining then?

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 07:51 AM
P~40 is Russian plane

I guess we "forgot" since we moved on from Easter Front. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

DIRTY-MAC
02-09-2005, 09:49 AM
track proof is the way you should do it!

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But yet Russian birds with similar engine type can still take a beating with no damage to the engine at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bulls**t. Depends on which way Lady Luck is smiling at the moment. One lucky hit - just one tiny bullet - and your prop governor is broken.

This happens with Russian planes as well. Has in fact happened to me plenty of times, in both the Yak and La.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I refuse to whine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah? So why are you whining then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post, nice people skills

The fact of the matter is, that he's not talking about the damage that causes the prop to 'run away', or even a engine failure, per se

Take a P-40B for a spin, and watch- if you get hit anywhere, you have a good chance to have engine damage

Personally, I don't think that the P-40E and up has nearly this bad a problem, and when folks say "P-40 has too fragile an engine" they should instead say just what model P-40 they are talking about, because nor every P-40 exhibits these issues. Same with the P-40B, C, and H81A-2 'waddle' on the ground.

We have the Hawk 81A-2, the P-40B, the P-40C, the P-40E, the field modified P-40, and the P-40M

Seems to me you don't know the whole story here


Lexx-

we both know that the P-40 is an American plane used by the Soviets under lend-lease. Brits used it under lend-lease as well. That's like saying Yaks are French aircraft because a French unit flew them

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Lexx-

we both know that... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I remember now, the original poster was not very focused and lost me, talking about everything except P~40. Thanks.

Monty_Thrud
02-09-2005, 12:33 PM
Yup!...totally agree on the P40 non-whine whine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...i had the same happen to me on Greater Green last week 3 times, engine locks solid even if ya sneeze...Please unpork the P40...TA! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

msalama
02-09-2005, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Great post, nice people skills <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, it was a bit rewd. Admitted. HOWEVER...

Perception IS NOT proof. Nor are statements like "but everybody knows that blah blah" and/or "it's common knowledge that yadda yadda" etc. etc. ad nauseum. No, sir - if you want to make a CREDIBLE CLAIM, you have to back it up with some hard & unambiguous FACTS. It's as simple as that.

Here, however, we seem to have a bunch of teen-aged whiners accusing Oleg of screwing things, whereas IRL it could very well be _them_ who f**k up and then try to lay the blame on others - you know, as in "BUAAAAAAHHHH he shot me down!!! It has to be this s**tty no-good excuse of an aeroplane. OOOOOOLLLEEEEG!!! FIX THIS PIECE OF JUNK NNNNOOOOWWW!!!!"

Sounds familiar? And after all this, these individuals then gladly go & add insult to injury by complaining about Oleg being largely absent. Well, why do _you_ think he doesn't like to hang around listening all this c**p?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Seems to me you don't know the whole story here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I most definitely don't. But it seems that neither do the whiners, they just THINK they do. And that's the crux of the matter, right there.

So... proof, hard & unambiguous proof anyone, just this once? Please?

PS. Yep, shutting up right away, sir, and keeping the trap shut as well from now on - I think my position is clear enough after this post...

Chuck_Older
02-09-2005, 12:59 PM
You're pretty wierd.

If you think I told you to shut up, you got some problems, Jack.

I replied to you because of your attitude and rudeness.

You admit to it, but I'm the bad guy? Nice try.

msalama
02-09-2005, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You're pretty wierd.

If you think I told you to shut up, you got some problems, Jack.

I replied to you because of your attitude and rudeness.

You admit to it, but _I'm_ the bad guy? Nice try. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, sorry, didn't mean to put you down in any way. Never meant to chew _your_ a*se with this, and yes, bit of rudeness from my part can definitely be detected. I'm just a bit het up because unsubstantiated claims usually do no good - I mean, if you want something changed you better prove first that it needs changing, and prove it so that there's no doubt about the matter, regardless of differing opinions. And this is very seldomly, if ever, seen on this board.

About the shutting up part: I meant that I'm gonna shut up _anyway_ before someone tells me to - which will otherwise happen very soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OK, I'll hold my peace now. My opinions of the matter are clear enough anyway...

jurinko
02-09-2005, 01:56 PM
it is more than year i sent to oleg screens showing the amount of mg hits from he111 rear gunner into the nose of different aircrafts - Bf needed single hit to smoke, P40 a bit more, yaks 3 times more and LaGG was nearly undestroyable (+50 hits from 50-100m and nothing). This was fresh FB V1.0 but things are not much different. maybe a bit better.

DIRTY-MAC
02-09-2005, 05:10 PM
Send it again!



IF IT BLEEDS YOU CAN KILL IT!

LEXX_Luthor
02-09-2005, 10:27 PM
That's a good idea. Park bomber and target on open flat ground with varying relative directions. We have a number of different guns on bombers now to shoot at parked planes--AI planes offline, against another Player plane in an online test. Or, you can set a bomber to takeoff and park offline Player plane in near the enemy bomber.

Last I checked -- before PF -- I used TB~3, hopped into the front gunner seat. I was able to consistently set AI P~47 burning well before AI Bf~109. Old test though, and only from the rear direction.

msalama
02-10-2005, 01:22 AM
Jurinko:

Was the situation _exactly_ the same every time? Did the bullets hit the same area of the engine in all tests? Was the bullet trajectory similar each time, i.e. no difference between impact angles and velocities?

I'm terribly sorry that I'm a stickler - which I admittedly am - but your tests are not valid, unless you're sure - and able to prove - that they were done under _identical_ circumstances each and every time.

And this is exactly where most of the complaints fail. Heck, _I_ would ignore 99% of them if I was Oleg, just as the man himself apparently does!

It thus seems to me that what we desperately need in order to go ahead in this, is a _standardized_ set of FM & DM tests. F16_Matz has seemingly started to ponder the matter (or at least one area of it), so let's just keep our ears to the ground. And a BIG S! too for his efforts.

But unless such a test series is developed - and it might well be that it can't be developed at all - most of the complaints will just be ignored by 1C. I'm sorry, but this is how it is, and probably will be in the future as well.

I just wish the whiners would understand this - but seemingly not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

jurinko
02-10-2005, 01:51 AM
msalama:

I do not remeber exactly how many times I reproduced the same results, but I remember that never happened that DB engine survived more than two light caliber MG hits and M-105 engine was never damaged by 5 hits, usually it took tens of hits. U can do the same test - switch on the invulnerability and neverending ammo and fire at attacking fighters from their 12 o´clock. Or even better, park the taking-off fighter 100m behind you in FMB and fire into his engine.

When I presented a picture with LaGG´s nose covered with dozens of MG17 hits and nothing, some smart guy just like you told "so what, it is a game" or "if you want a reality, shoot yourself after dying" or such stupidities. Please do not mess whinning with serious problem reporting.

The vulnerability of in-line engines was, as I remeber

DB-60X &gt; Merlin + Allison &gt; AM-38 (in MiG) &gt; VK-105 (Yaks) &gt;&gt; VK-105 (LaGGs)

but the differences were too big to be realistic.

jurinko
02-10-2005, 01:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jurinko:
msalama:

I do not remeber exactly how many times I reproduced the same results, but I remember that never happened that DB engine survived more than two light caliber MG hits and M-105 engine was never damaged by 5 hits, usually it took tens of hits. U can do the same test - switch on the invulnerability and neverending ammo and fire at attacking fighters from their 12 o´clock. Or even better, park the taking-off fighter 100m behind you in FMB and fire into his engine.

When I presented a picture with LaGG´s nose covered with dozens of MG17 hits and nothing, some smart guy just like you told "so what, it is a game" or "if you want a reality, shoot yourself after dying" or such stupidities. Please do not mess whining with serious problem reporting.

The vulnerability of in-line engines was, as I remeber

DB-60X &gt; Merlin + Allison &gt; AM-38 (in MiG) &gt; VK-105 (Yaks) &gt;&gt; VK-105 (LaGGs)

but the differences were too big to be realistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

msalama
02-10-2005, 01:52 AM
...and yeah, just one more thing: what about the differences in real-life damage durability of WWII aircraft? Does anyone here have _reliable_ information about the thing, i.e. can someone _prove_ Oleg that he's done something wrong concerning the DM of some planes compared to others? If not, then...

jurinko
02-10-2005, 02:01 AM
msalama:

I do not remeber exactly how many times I reproduced the same results, but I remember that never happened that DB engine survived more than two light caliber MG hits and M-105 engine was never damaged by 5 hits, usually it took tens of hits. U can do the same test - switch on the invulnerability and neverending ammo and fire at attacking fighters from their 12 o´clock. Or even better, park the taking-off fighter 100m behind you in FMB and fire into his engine.

When I presented a picture with LaGG´s nose covered with dozens of MG17 hits and nothing, some smart guy just like you told "so what, it is a game" or "if you want a reality, shoot yourself after dying" or such stupidities. Please do not mess whining with serious problem reporting.

The vulnerability of in-line engines was, as I remeber

DB-60X &gt; Merlin + Allison &gt; AM-38 (in MiG) &gt; VK-105 (Yaks) &gt;&gt; VK-105 (LaGGs)

But the differences were too big to be realistic.

msalama
02-10-2005, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>some smart guy just like you told "so what, it is a game" or "if you want a reality, shoot yourself after dying" or such stupidities. Please do not mess whinning with serious problem reporting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hey man, you might very well have a completely valid point there, and your testing situation seems to be as adequate as it can be in these circumstances. So maybe you should try and dig up some real-world data of these aircraft in question next, making your case provable too?

And I'm not saying one iota that the differences aren't - or can't be - exaggerated as they are! It just has to be _proven_, that's all...

jurinko
02-10-2005, 02:39 AM
some time ago, SkyChimp posted here a picture of Allison with several machinegun hits, which did not make a big harm. Allisons were quite durable, the report told.
Also Oleg told once that VK-105 series were maybe 20% more durable to machinegun fire than Allisons or DB engines. I would live with that - as 20% difference makes 5 hits to kill Allison and 6 hits to kill VK-105, but this is not the case in FB.

msalama
02-10-2005, 04:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but this is not the case in FB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...

It would really do this community a world of good - no, strike that: !!!a world of f**king great!!! is more apt - if someone came up with a standard set of FM & DM tests agreed upon by the majority of us. The pre-approval discussion would, however, probably degenerate into a shouting match http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at some point, but still...

JG5_UnKle
02-10-2005, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by msalama:
Hmmm...

It would really do this community a world of good - no, strike that: !!!a world of f**king great!!! is more apt - if someone came up with a standard set of FM & DM tests agreed upon by the majority of us. The pre-approval discussion would, however, probably degenerate into a shouting match http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at some point, but still... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone else spot the self-fulfilling prophecy here? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

msalama
02-10-2005, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyone else spot the self-fulfilling prophecy here? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not me. No need to shout at all. I just received my daily medication from those oh-so-nice white-coated gentlemen y'see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ahhh, the wonders of modern medicine. I might even re-join the human race one of these days.

(Hmmm... seemingly shouting matches are not the ONLY sign of a non-salvageable discussion, BTW http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

DIRTY-MAC
02-10-2005, 06:33 AM
no text
bump