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Deliverance
02-03-2005, 02:20 AM
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=1144
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Trogdor93
02-03-2005, 04:34 PM
Someone obviously hasn't looked at the IRS tax data.

Deliverance
02-04-2005, 01:29 AM
Someone obviously has missed the point of this comic.

Trogdor93
02-04-2005, 07:31 AM
I guess I am missing the point. Most of the time it's those so-called "liberal elitists" that I hear complaining about half that stuff, not talk radio hosts.

The top 50% of wage earners pay over 95% of the taxes and according to "liberal elitists" get 40% of the recent tax breaks. Sounds to me like the "middle class" is making out like bandits.

Deliverance
02-04-2005, 08:14 AM
I have no idea what the current tax situation is in the USA but the figures shown are not supposed to be accurate

The idea behind the comic is the "demonization" of the non republican voter. All non republicans being of course "elitist liberals" (nice piece of repub marketing incidently- making the word "liberal" consistent with left wing ideology http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif)

So Joe Average is being led to believe that the current fears facing our consumer society are (ironically) due to those liberals.

Whereas in real life, issues as rampant job outsourcing, pollution control, requalification of park land for industrial use, etc
are very much being "fudged" by the current administration...

Trogdor93
02-04-2005, 08:47 AM
Who is demonizing non-republican voters? I haven't heard anyone in the USA complain about non-republican voters. Politicians yes. Voters? Not once. I get it now, it brings up Democrat (liberal) talking points and then sarcastically blames "liberal elitists" forgive me for not getting it because I usually look at facts and statistics and don't think in terms of propaganda.

It wasn't right-wing conservatives who came up with the "liberal" label, left-wingers identified themselves (probably sounded a lot better to American ears than 'socialist,' at least at the time) with the term before it became a "dirty" word. As far as "liberal elitists" I've only heard it used in relation discussions about condescension in left-leaning (television and film) media.

"I can remember way back when a liberal was one who was generous with his money." -Will Rogers

Demon_Mustang
02-07-2005, 09:34 PM
What? You mean the poor that pay no taxes receive no taxes back from the tax breaks? BLASPHEMY!!! It MUST be a right-wing conspiracy!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cowanchicken
02-08-2005, 01:31 PM
Since a large number of people have niether the time nor the brains to grasp certain political ideas, they need to be brainwashed into thinking that certain ideas are bad. If people are assigned labels, it doesn't matter what they actually stand for, all you need is some eccentric speaker to demonize the label, and consilidate any opposing opinion into that same particular category.

Also, true liberalism has little to do with the ideology of the Democratic Party in the U.S., or any other major American political party. Noted liberal thinkers include Adam Smith and David Hume, neither of whom would fit into either the Democratic or Republican parties.

Hornet57
02-08-2005, 01:56 PM
A Liberal to me is one that is an intellectual as far as book knowledge but when it comes to using his or her common sense part of the brain they are clueless.
I haven't see to many Liberals that wear their lable proudly yet i.e. John Kerry

Demon_Mustang
02-08-2005, 04:05 PM
Cow, a conversation or discussion would take forever if we have to define what is liberal or what is the American democrats, and what-not, just know the context of what we're speaking of and any explanation of what is or what isn't liberalism is completely unnecessary, and no, you're not the first person to explain this...

Cowanchicken
02-08-2005, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:
A Liberal to me is one that is an intellectual as far as book knowledge but when it comes to using his or her common sense part of the brain they are clueless.
I haven't see to many Liberals that wear their lable proudly yet i.e. John Kerry <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John Kerry isn't a Liberal.

Cowanchicken
02-08-2005, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demon_Mustang:
Cow, a conversation or discussion would take forever if we have to define what is liberal or what is the American democrats, and what-not, just know the context of what we're speaking of and any explanation of what is or what isn't liberalism is completely unnecessary, and no, you're not the first person to explain this... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would make this unnecessary is if you could actually comprehend what you read. It's not a matter of what context you're speaking in, you're incorrectly branding people with labels.

Deliverance
02-09-2005, 02:14 AM
Thank you cowandchicken. well put.

nagant_m44
02-09-2005, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:
A Liberal to me is one that is an intellectual as far as book knowledge but when it comes to using his or her common sense part of the brain they are clueless.
I haven't see to many Liberals that wear their lable proudly yet i.e. John Kerry <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John Kerry isn't a Liberal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he isn't a Liberal, then who is a Liberal??

MDS_Geist
02-09-2005, 05:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
John Kerry isn't a Liberal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's not? That's news - does he know that?

Why do you claim that he is not a liberal? Looking at his voting record and his speeches on the Senate floor certainly aren't conservative, and many of them aren't particularly moderate either.

Cowanchicken
02-09-2005, 01:55 PM
He's left of center on some issues, and right on others. Left wing isn't the same as liberal.

Cowanchicken
02-09-2005, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nagant_m44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hornet57:
A Liberal to me is one that is an intellectual as far as book knowledge but when it comes to using his or her common sense part of the brain they are clueless.
I haven't see to many Liberals that wear their lable proudly yet i.e. John Kerry <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John Kerry isn't a Liberal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he isn't a Liberal, then who is a Liberal?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are few and far between in the U.S.

nagant_m44
02-09-2005, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
He's left of center on some issues, and right on others. Left wing isn't the same as liberal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you name some of the issues where he's on the right?

Demon_Mustang
02-09-2005, 09:43 PM
Cow, I guess if you have no real argument argue semantics right?

Who gives a rat's *** what the literal definition of liberal or conservative is, in America, where this conversation is relevant, we understand liberal to be someone of the democrat party and conservative as someone from the republican party, simple as that.

Otherwise we would get into something like:
"Man, John Kerry is such a member of the American democratic party, but not really a liberal by it's dictionary definition but what is understood to be left-wing or liberal to American political system."

vs.

"Man, John Kerry is such a liberal."

You tell me, which is better? Is it really THAT important or are you really just so desperate to see yourself type even though you don't really have a relevant argument in this discussion??

Demon_Mustang
02-09-2005, 09:45 PM
BTW, John Kerry isn't REALLY "left-wing." Note that before the presidential runnings he had opposing views to his current ones. His change in position on many issues was the result of changes in the public opinions in the polls. The Labor Unions, which is their major source of funding in the campaign, also demanded a very left-wing candidate and Kerry was simply giving that to them to gain their support.

That's actually why he lost, because he's not really one and he's not really the other, he shapes and changes his "opinions" based on external factors, he really has no true personal belief in either side of any issue.

Cowanchicken
02-10-2005, 10:43 AM
Again, you're simplifying things so that you don't have to discuss the actual issue. What's wrong with his proposals? You've simply decided you disagree with Kerry because he's been labeled a liberal.

MDS_Geist
02-10-2005, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cowanchicken:
Again, you're simplifying things so that you don't have to discuss the actual issue. What's wrong with his proposals? You've simply decided you disagree with Kerry because he's been labeled a liberal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with Kerry because we disagree, as well as I happen to find him personally rather disreputable. It has nothing to do with any labels you or anyone else cares to attach.

Demon_Mustang
02-10-2005, 03:08 PM
What do you mean what's wrong with his proposals?

There's nothing wrong with voting for the war, then voting against the funding once the troops are there?

There's nothing wrong with supporting the corrupt neo-mafia labor unions that are driving our economy and employment to hell?

There's nothing wrong with first saying he's ashamed of his military service, then saying he should be president because of his military service?

There's nothing wrong with wanting to cancel all of the tax cuts, which affect the middle class a lot, BTW, and probably the likelihood of even raising taxes to pay for the ambitious healthcare and other public services he promises?

There's nothing wrong with supporting the killing of innocent babies while opposing the killing of guilty murderers?

That's why there is two main parties, the democrats and the republicans, if you are a republican, you are against the things I mentioned above, so you vote republican. How come you seem to think that there's no reason to disagree with one side (the one you support) while it's wrong to agree with the other? You DO realize everyone has their own beliefs and values and because of these differences we will pick the appropriate candidate that fits our ideals. I didn't oppose Kerry simply because I "label" him a liberal, I opposed him because of all of these ideals. Why don't you ask why the people who voted for Kerry opposed Bush because they "labeled" him a conservative?

Oh right, I forgot that there isn't two sides of every coin for you...

This has nothing to do with labels, you are the only one making it this way. BTW, Kerry lost already, give it up.

Cowanchicken
02-11-2005, 04:56 PM
Wow. So every political issue is a coin. Just keep simplifying it until you can understand it and make a knee-jerk reaction.

Demon_Mustang
02-12-2005, 02:22 AM
Give it up cow, you have not given one single shred of what even resembles an argument here, all you've been doing is arguing semantics. And if you want to talk about simplifying, you're the one giving the one-sided argument that it's wrong to disagree with the democrat ideals while you don't even stop to question why people would oppose the republican ones. Why all the questions on why we did not like Kerry? I spelled it out quite clearly I believe, unless you need big bubble letters written in crayon with a few illustrations to help?

Cowanchicken
02-12-2005, 11:29 PM
What makes you think I support the ideals of the Democratic Party?

Demon_Mustang
02-13-2005, 01:09 AM
Uuuhhhhh, you know what cow, forget it, lol. Seriously, don't even worry about it anymore, I don't really want to spend any more time on this, lol, no offense man, I'm sure you're ok with this.

Cowanchicken
02-13-2005, 01:36 PM
Just for future reference, I disagree with the idea of organized political parties, but I also disagree with dismissing an opinion because of some oversimplified one liner.

Demon_Mustang
02-13-2005, 08:31 PM
That's what you're not understanding, YOU'RE the one that's dismissing our opinions by questioning why we disagree with the likes of Kerry. We are not disagreeing with him because of any one-liner, I listed more than enough reasons to not support him, and that is my OPINION and no one is dismissing any opinions except you...

That's why I seriously just want to stop this, it's getting nowhere, I'm repeating myself and it's going to deaf ears, it's pointless if you're going to ignore everything I wrote except one word that if twisted correctly can serve your argument.

Cowanchicken
02-14-2005, 01:26 PM
How am I dismissing your opinion by questioning it? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but seeing as how you're answers are always either based on some simplified dis-logic, or they just trail off into some irrelevant blathering I begin to wonder if there is actually any intellectual process behind your allegedly well thought out ideas and perfect perception of everything.

So what I'm getting from your responses in this thread is that you are actually offended by somoene elses differing opinion, or even questioning it.

Demon_Mustang
02-15-2005, 01:32 AM
?? Seriously man, forget about it, scroll up or go back a page if you want to read what I wrote about why I personally disliked Kerry, and it has nothing to do with labels, I don't feel like repeating myself once again, it seems to be the common thing at every discussion that everything that is relevant is simply ignored and have to be repeated, it get's old, seriously, so either get the point, or forget about it because it'll go absolutely nowhere if this discussion is just a battle of semantics.

Let me make it easy on you. You claim we are just labeling people, and that we have no reason to dislike Kerry other than the label that we gave him, so I listed you all the ideals that Kerry supported that I do not support, try reading them...

nagant_m44
02-19-2005, 04:07 PM
Maybe it isn't that bad to change you're opinion once in a while, like kerry did.
"A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying...that he is wiser today than he was yesterday." --Alexander Pope"

ScrubberManFSJ
02-19-2005, 05:35 PM
btw:

you guys have already wasted too much time on a topic of so little importance....... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Demon_Mustang
02-21-2005, 01:06 AM
sure nagant, but when that opinion changes literally overnight, coincidentally right when important polls are released, you have to question the reason for that change, especially when it does not coincide with any major change in the situation overseas. Kerry's opinion on the war changed in two interviews that was a day apart, from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other extreme end of the spectrum and the only thing separating the two interviews was a poll that showed Kerry was dropping far behind Howard Dean during the democratic primaries (Dean has been strongly against the operation in Iraq from the beginning).

It's quite obvious what motivated the sudden change in opinion, and when someone is so easily molded simply for the sake of getting votes, you have to wonder if he really has any strong convictions of his own that he would actually stand behind despite public opinion.

The fact is, Joe Liebermann was the best candidate for the democratic party because he had real opinions and values and fought for what he felt was right, but he was forced to drop out early due to the obvious fact that he would not get the lead. And the one person that can be considered the worst, won, kind of shows something about the people voting in that...

Oh well, too bad, it's over, end of story.