PDA

View Full Version : Talesfromonline: Dogfighting skills unecessary!



Jumoschwanz
06-07-2004, 10:20 PM
If you want to talk about success in relation to flying Il2 online, you could define it in terms of having fun, points, kills, and in other ways surely.

I am not the best dogfighter. Maybe competent at best. In a one on one contest I regularly get my a$$ kicked. But very often I can get the most points on a dogfight server. And it is always fun as long as the chat is not too whiney right?

I think it was Hartmann? that said if he got into a dogfight he knew he did something wrong?

I spent many a fun filled hour on Hyperlobby going around and around in furballs.

But it is a fact that no one lasts in a furball. You will get shot off someone's tail, or gang banged by a squad, picked off somehow for sure.

This past year though I have gotten lazy. I just do not enjoy the hard work, over and over again, involved in turn and burn dogfighting. I drive my car a lot slower than I did twenty five years ago too, so maybe being fortysomething is it.
This "laziness" though has spawned a productive flying technique in me that is well known to many; zooming and booming.

At this point I can just go on a dogfight server and stay up in some corner, look around for a furball, and just swoop through it, hit someone, then up and away to safety. This can work for ground attack too.

Recently I put an sc500 on a 109g2. I sank a ship in a group of ships with heavy aaa, shot out an aaa installation on the ground, and shot down a P39 on the way to landing. All done with high speed zoom and boom. No dogfighting skills at all. That was a lot of points, like over 500 I landed with that sortie.
I also hit a yp-80 jet with a 109e4. I should have shot it down but got a five second freeze(56k here) when i fired my cannons! When my screen unfroze I had rammed the jet and it broke my E4 in half. Rats! But it goes to show that if you use the right tactics, have altitude and look around, you don't need a fast or good handling plane or any dogfighting technique to accomplish anything. The skill of your opponent is no longer much of a factor.

Now I usually fly on cockpit-on servers with little or no icons. But I have tried the same thing out on wonder-woman servers too. Using speed and alt and a little smarts I shot down opponents until I ran out of gas(unfortunately I had an La-7 and a lagg on my tail) . They would say "nice shot" or give me the S!. But I never feel like I do a darn thing worthy of comment. If it is done right it is not hard work at all. Just the way I like it.

I have seen in the last few years, unfortunately, some pilots get discouraged and dissapear from online play. I just thought maybe this post might help somebody that was new or not having fun, find ways to have some fun while flying online and learning the ropes.

Thanks,

Jumoschwanz

Jumoschwanz
06-07-2004, 10:20 PM
If you want to talk about success in relation to flying Il2 online, you could define it in terms of having fun, points, kills, and in other ways surely.

I am not the best dogfighter. Maybe competent at best. In a one on one contest I regularly get my a$$ kicked. But very often I can get the most points on a dogfight server. And it is always fun as long as the chat is not too whiney right?

I think it was Hartmann? that said if he got into a dogfight he knew he did something wrong?

I spent many a fun filled hour on Hyperlobby going around and around in furballs.

But it is a fact that no one lasts in a furball. You will get shot off someone's tail, or gang banged by a squad, picked off somehow for sure.

This past year though I have gotten lazy. I just do not enjoy the hard work, over and over again, involved in turn and burn dogfighting. I drive my car a lot slower than I did twenty five years ago too, so maybe being fortysomething is it.
This "laziness" though has spawned a productive flying technique in me that is well known to many; zooming and booming.

At this point I can just go on a dogfight server and stay up in some corner, look around for a furball, and just swoop through it, hit someone, then up and away to safety. This can work for ground attack too.

Recently I put an sc500 on a 109g2. I sank a ship in a group of ships with heavy aaa, shot out an aaa installation on the ground, and shot down a P39 on the way to landing. All done with high speed zoom and boom. No dogfighting skills at all. That was a lot of points, like over 500 I landed with that sortie.
I also hit a yp-80 jet with a 109e4. I should have shot it down but got a five second freeze(56k here) when i fired my cannons! When my screen unfroze I had rammed the jet and it broke my E4 in half. Rats! But it goes to show that if you use the right tactics, have altitude and look around, you don't need a fast or good handling plane or any dogfighting technique to accomplish anything. The skill of your opponent is no longer much of a factor.

Now I usually fly on cockpit-on servers with little or no icons. But I have tried the same thing out on wonder-woman servers too. Using speed and alt and a little smarts I shot down opponents until I ran out of gas(unfortunately I had an La-7 and a lagg on my tail) . They would say "nice shot" or give me the S!. But I never feel like I do a darn thing worthy of comment. If it is done right it is not hard work at all. Just the way I like it.

I have seen in the last few years, unfortunately, some pilots get discouraged and dissapear from online play. I just thought maybe this post might help somebody that was new or not having fun, find ways to have some fun while flying online and learning the ropes.

Thanks,

Jumoschwanz

CV8_Dudeness
06-07-2004, 10:26 PM
its all Air Combat

some people say :

"stop running" or "come down here & fight"

well welcome to air-combat is all i have to say in reply

Zayets
06-08-2004, 12:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
If you want to talk about success in relation to flying Il2 online, you could define it in terms of having fun, points, kills, and in other ways surely.

I am not the best dogfighter. Maybe competent at best. In a one on one contest I regularly get my a$$ kicked. But very often I can get the most points on a dogfight server. And it is always fun as long as the chat is not too whiney right?

I think it was Hartmann? that said if he got into a dogfight he knew he did something wrong?

I spent many a fun filled hour on Hyperlobby going around and around in furballs.

But it is a fact that no one lasts in a furball. You will get shot off someone's tail, or gang banged by a squad, picked off somehow for sure.

This past year though I have gotten lazy. I just do not enjoy the hard work, over and over again, involved in turn and burn dogfighting. I drive my car a lot slower than I did twenty five years ago too, so maybe being fortysomething is it.
This "laziness" though has spawned a productive flying technique in me that is well known to many; zooming and booming.

At this point I can just go on a dogfight server and stay up in some corner, look around for a furball, and just swoop through it, hit someone, then up and away to safety. This can work for ground attack too.

Recently I put an sc500 on a 109g2. I sank a ship in a group of ships with heavy aaa, shot out an aaa installation on the ground, and shot down a P39 on the way to landing. All done with high speed zoom and boom. No dogfighting skills at all. That was a lot of points, like over 500 I landed with that sortie.
I also hit a yp-80 jet with a 109e4. I should have shot it down but got a five second freeze(56k here) when i fired my cannons! When my screen unfroze I had rammed the jet and it broke my E4 in half. Rats! But it goes to show that if you use the right tactics, have altitude and look around, you don't need a fast or good handling plane or any dogfighting technique to accomplish anything. The skill of your opponent is no longer much of a factor.

Now I usually fly on cockpit-on servers with little or no icons. But I have tried the same thing out on wonder-woman servers too. Using speed and alt and a little smarts I shot down opponents until I ran out of gas(unfortunately I had an La-7 and a lagg on my tail) . They would say "nice shot" or give me the S!. But I never feel like I do a darn thing worthy of comment. If it is done right it is not hard work at all. Just the way I like it.

I have seen in the last few years, unfortunately, some pilots get discouraged and dissapear from online play. I just thought maybe this post might help somebody that was new or not having fun, find ways to have some fun while flying online and learning the ropes.

Thanks,

Jumoschwanz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Huxley_S
06-08-2004, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>unfortunately, some pilots get discouraged and dissapear from online play<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... thanks to people like you zooming down from out of nowhere and blowing them out of the sky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_huxli.jpg (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap)

FB Music and Campaigns @
http://www.onemorewild.org/huxley

WOLFMondo
06-08-2004, 03:38 AM
I know a number of people who have got discouraged from online play because there expecting turn and burn airquake but kept finding themselves being bounced by more experianced pilots using tactics or they tried to use a FW190 to turn fight at 500 meters with know knowledge of evasion tactics. I noticed allot of new guys also fly solo, which is both there fault and the fault of more experianced players who know better and should pass on that knowledge.

What can be said apart from a game/Sim like IL2 requires allot more practice, patience and learning than most other games. Also due to the amount of different planes on offer this becomes confusing to new players who don't have much knowledge of WW2 fighter planes apart from what they learn't in high school which is usually far from the truth.

Boom and Zoom requires allot of skill, more than TnB....and patience, knowing the limits of the plane your flying, controling dives, knowing how to deflection shoot.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

Fehler
06-08-2004, 04:00 AM
Well, first off, when you talk about skill, what are you talking about, really? Is knowing your plane skill? Why would a guy in a 190 fly around in circles on the deck against a superior turning airplane? If he does, he has no skill or at least no knowledge in his aircraft.

Angle, energy, turn, straight boom and zoom is really irrelavent. Knowing your plane and its advantages, and using those advantages IS skill.

I always find it funny when people in a turn fighter gets mad when I wont turn fight him in my 190. Should I, in return, get mad when he wont energy fight me at my peak performance altitude? How silly would that be?

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Zayets
06-08-2004, 04:06 AM
When I fly alone I got shoot down 90% of the time on every sortie if I venture on the deck. That's because I fly mostly the P47. I'm not that afraid to go down low with a P63 or a Spit for example. And this only confirm me that I should stay up,come fast,shoot go back up.If you see Enemy Plane Destroyed,then good, if not,lurk more until the fuel is gone. Being shoot down on approach final myself,that's OK,but expect the same from me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And many time I take the He111 if available and go up 4000-5000 for a bombing run. This is also cool.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

Yellonet
06-08-2004, 04:20 AM
I sure can understand why people get mad when jumped by some sneaky BnZ:er. I sure get mad, I can understand BnZ:ers, but I still get mad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The huge advantage of BnZ:ing is that you can use this method even though your opponent is not.

TnB can only be used if your opponent is exercising TnB:ing.

This will always give the BnZ:er an advantage over the TnB:er.


- Yellonet

WOLFMondo
06-08-2004, 06:04 AM
If were flying a/c modelled like they really were in real life, flying in DF servers that are set up as missions then the planes should be flown as they were in real life to maximise there effectivness. BnZ wasn't some tactic used by a minority of planes/airforces etc it was major tactic. Looking from another perspective (slightly cold hearted and selfish) if people don't like to be bounced and get upset at this thats there problem and they should adjust there flying tactics accordingly...or get a wing man to cover them up high.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)

carguy_
06-08-2004, 06:27 AM
Actually all you exploit to shut down an aircraft is called dogfighting skills.

Ppl say a furball is the same thing as dogfight.You bet my pants it aint!It seems ppl don`t have any idea from where comes the word "dogfight".

You dogfight when being in a furball but you dogfight also when performing B&Z.

Thus if you don`t have any dogfighting skills,you won`t prevail.

My criteria of an ace is:
1.Be reasonable and aware of anything around.
2.Judge the situation correctly.
3.Help your mates when possible.

Those are my main rules.Although I think every ace knows his plane inside out and can do things others can`t.A guy in G6 who shootes down a Yak9 in a DF@1500m,250km/h deserves an 'ace' label in my book.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Xnomad
06-08-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yellonet:

The huge advantage of BnZ:ing is that you can use this method even though your opponent is not.

TnB can only be used if your opponent is exercising TnB:ing.

This will always give the BnZ:er an advantage over the TnB:er.

- Yellonet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Climb up there and smack him down!

I've been bounced by Russians at 5000 Metres in a Bf 109 because I wasn't expecting Russians to be higher than 5000 all I was doing was circling around looking down and then BANG! This has happened to me about 4 times now.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

LilHorse
06-08-2004, 10:17 AM
Yes, I much prefer the idea of BnZing ppl. I have no desire to demonstrate any exceptional skills at turnfighting (especially since I don't really have any. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif). But too often I can't resist the temptation to turn when I really shouldn't. More discipline needed I guess. But for me nothing beats screaming down at high speed, blasting somebody before they even know what's happened, and zooming off. Anybody who tells you that you should "come down here and fight" is a fool. And anyone who obliges them is a bigger fool. Nobody in the "real thing" would stick around and fight if there was a better way to shoot down your enemy and get away to fight another day. That's what BnZing is all about.

TugZooey
06-08-2004, 10:38 AM
I agree with your assessment of how to score kills pretty easily, but I would call your style dogfighting as well.

I too have trouble turning when I shouldn't, that's why I've been flying the Japanese planes for the past week or so.

If I'm in a TnB proficient plane, I try to imagine it's like akido when the BnZ starts. I try to throw off my opponent using his energy (using stalls and verticle maneuvers, etc.) Usually they get frustrated after a while and make a mistake by turning. Otherwise, if he is patient, or if he is really good on the first pass, my little zeke doesn't last too long.

Patience works for both BnZ and TnB.

USAF_352_PZ_X
06-08-2004, 11:04 AM
Jumoschwanz I believe you have this thing figured out. I also use the same tactics you list and with the same results. Good post, look forward to meeting you in the unfrindly skys.
Bill.

crazyivan1970
06-08-2004, 11:35 AM
Excellent post Jumo..
Flying plane to its best abilities is a true definition of skill in my book, whatever it takes.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

kalo456
06-08-2004, 12:12 PM
Hey guys.

I wanted to relate an experience I had recently. I believe it was on a Greatergreen map. It was Japanese vs. Americans. The planes were A6M5 or A6M2 vs. P40E, P39Q-1 or P-38J. When I joined axis (japs) were outnumbered so I joined the underdogs. What I found was a frustrating situation when I spawned. Almost all of the red team were flying P-38's. They had gained air superiority over our airfield and were BNZ'ing us with no hope of any counter tactic. Because of the planeset one team had a plane that was incapable of any signinficant BNZ capability and the other team planes that were tailor made for it, it was really frustrating. That was about the most frustrating time I have ever had on a server. The BNZ ruled and we had no option. People were also as frustrated as I and kept leaving the server. I sent a few messages to the other team to be sporting and trade in some of those P-38's for P-40 or aircobras. Do you think they did? Nahhh, they just enjoyed picking us off and being invulnerable. There is a darkside to BNZ. I do agree that this was the historical advantage of the P-38. I do agree that it rquires more skill to be a good BNZ'er. I just wanted to point out how it can really be unfair at times and certainly alienate a new player. I think that map just had the allied base too close to the axis one. That gave the allies too easy an opportunity to take off and climb at 110% and arrive right over our field with altitude and a horde of wingman with them. It's unfortunate the Japanese do not have something like the Ki61 Hien (tony) represented to fill the void between the Zero and the Ki84 Frank.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

Kalo

Martial1
06-08-2004, 12:37 PM
Nearly all pilots frown on vulching, why? Well it is thought that using you time in the server to get over an opponents airfield then use your height and speed advantage to get kills is unfair. This also applies to planes off the ground with not much height or air speed right, not just wheels down situations. So, the only way you can zoom and boom is to use your time in the server to gain height and pick on lower flying aircraft just in or re-spawned. So what is the difference between ZnB and vulching. The only way you can do it is to exploit your time in the server to get the height. ZnB could be seen as nothing more than mid air vulching.
Unless of course you axis pilots use your piloting skills to suddenly gain 3000m on your opponent.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Regards

The Martial1

Flightvector
06-08-2004, 02:18 PM
Absolutely not Martial1, you seem to overlook a huge fact here. Vulching is when you shoot down an aircraft in a Low E state without choice. I have no choice but to go Low E when landing of taking off. But mid-air? If I see a Fw190 hanging low, I have every right to exploit his choice to fly the Fw190 in a risky and improper way. He had a choice to fly high but chose not to! How is that different from you choosing to try to follow a P47 in a dive with a Zero and cracking up due to overspeed? I don't call that dive-vulching. That is your choice and is just plain combat.

Low E for landing or T/O, I can't help. Whether or not it is right to vulch a plane in this state, may depend on the situation, but please don't call BnZ vulching.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22ggz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fvsig2.jpg