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View Full Version : Why no Brit or Japanese guncam footage?



RepublicofTexas
08-10-2008, 05:28 PM
I have seen a lot of guncam footage over the years. The majority is German or USA footage. So where is all the Brit or Jap <span class="ev_code_RED">anese</span> footage?


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Please refrain from using the term J** on these boards. It is considered a derrogatory term by most Japanese people.. especially American born ones... If in the future you want to use 3 letters consider IJN or IJA (Short for Imperial Japanese Navy/Army). This is the only warning you will recieve. </span>

RepublicofTexas
08-10-2008, 05:28 PM
I have seen a lot of guncam footage over the years. The majority is German or USA footage. So where is all the Brit or Jap <span class="ev_code_RED">anese</span> footage?


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Please refrain from using the term J** on these boards. It is considered a derrogatory term by most Japanese people.. especially American born ones... If in the future you want to use 3 letters consider IJN or IJA (Short for Imperial Japanese Navy/Army). This is the only warning you will recieve. </span>

Wildnoob
08-10-2008, 06:02 PM
British footage you can find.

Japanese not because at least their early war aircraft didn't have cameras. by wat I read, the cameras where not used for save wheigth and not affect the aircraft performance. early in the war they even had radios for the same reason. altougth I have a diagram of a KI-84 who shows the camera in the rigth wing.

but really, I can't confirm such informations.

b2spirita
08-11-2008, 02:59 AM
Surely its 'Japanese' guncam footage?

ytareh
08-11-2008, 04:39 AM
spirita this has been debated to death over the years here .Consensus seems to be that it is best not to use that abbreviation although personally I dont find it offensive nor in any context Ive heard it has it been intended to be overtly racist .I reckon its LESS offensive than 'Brit' for UK citizen which many including former Prime Ministers have used as a badge of pride eg 'True Brit with true grit' ...Here in Ireland 'Jap-Import' is used to describe secondhand cars imported from Japan without the slightest disrespect (no more so than 'States' for United States)Im not so sure that the shortening of Nippon isnt disrespectful however but its a lot rarer.Interesting to get a Japanese citizen's/resident's viewpoint -we've got several on the boards here ...

SeaFireLIV
08-11-2008, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ytareh:
Interesting to get a Japanese citizen's/resident's viewpoint -we've got several on the boards here ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be. I got collared myself for it and I wasn`t using it as any kind of insult. In fact, the word seemed so harmless to me and the only reason I `know` it`s an insult (apparently was cos a Mod admonished me. I would have that the`N` word used against the Japanese was worse and I would not have used it in forum talk.

Oh well.

Xiolablu3
08-11-2008, 01:43 PM
I also wondered this about Brit Guncam footage and asked a similar question myself a while back, possibly most has not been released by the national archive.

Same with RUssian, I think, we dont see much.

In fact possibly the USA is the only country who has made all of its guncam footage publically available. And this includes the Luftwaffe stuff they captured from the Nazis.

I have seen some not-very -good quality guncam footage from the battle of Britain 1940, but its hard to make out whats happening on some. Sort of hundreds of large smudges are he111's, you cannot see much gunfire.

Here you go, it has a sample of it. The last clip shows a good burst onto a He111 which starts smoking :-

http://rareaviation.com/av/RAFDemo.wvx

http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&p...4873&category_id=923 (http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=14873&category_id=923)

The quality is bad compared to later war guncams, plus remember that at this stage of the war the RAF was not too bothered about recording anything, as long as they stopped those bombers.

There MUST be thousands more guncams from the RAF, but they are possibly tucked away in the classified national archive .

Wildnoob
08-11-2008, 02:05 PM
I have a guncam video of RAF Thypoons firing at ground targets.

I don't posted it on Youtube because it's very short.

but the possibility of much material be still classified cited by Xiolablu3 is also possible.

JSG72
08-11-2008, 02:08 PM
You don't see much British guncam footage for precisely the reasons quoted. Britain is probably the most secretive country in the World as far as WW2 goes.

Why? I don't know. Someone enlighten me?

Aaron_GT
08-11-2008, 02:08 PM
Multiple reasons.

Film stock for this was sensitive but as cheap as possible which means that it tends to degrade relatively easily, especially in a damp climate. Even with old Hollywood film it often requires careful baking to recover the film, and that's with storage in a dry climate.

In the 1960s the UK didn't feel that preserving it was a priority and a lot was binned.

Back in the 70s and 80s in UK documentaries you saw a fair amount of British guncam footage. These days, though, there is less interest in WW2 in the UK and it is a small market (the USA has 5 times the population) so the British documentaries are rarely seen. The most likely way footage is preserved is by the reuse in documentaries but it is very selective.

Xiolablu3
08-11-2008, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:


In the 1960s the UK didn't feel that preserving it was a priority and a lot was binned.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wouldnt that be a tradgedy...perhaps if we pretend it didnt happen, it wont...?!

JSG72
08-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Call me an "Old Cynic"(You're an "Old Cynic".)

But would it be fair to say. That WW2. As far as Britain is concerned. Was in fact a monumentous reflection of Britain in its "Empire Days" and that to show this fact that the nation required the help of our Imperial friends nowadays is somewhat of anathema to our Governments since the early '60s due to the fact that GB. had lost the ability to call on our Commonwealth partners to aid us "In our Hour of need"?

One has to remember that "Our" guncam footage was represented by a League of Nations. Longer than my arm, at least.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
08-11-2008, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JSG72:
Call me an "Old Cynic"(You're an "Old Cynic".)

But would it be fair to say. That WW2. As far as Britain is concerned. Was in fact a monumentous reflection of Britain in its "Empire Days" and that to show this fact that the nation required the help of our Imperial friends nowadays is somewhat of anathema to our Governments since the early '60s due to the fact that GB. had lost the ability to call on our Commonwealth partners to aid us "In our Hour of need"?

One has to remember that "Our" guncam footage was represented by a League of Nations. Longer than my arm, at least. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly, but I can remember a political party in government that used BoB guncam footage in its' t.v. election broadcasts in the 1980's. No policy statement, just b/w images of 'planes being shot up and going down set to Elgar, I think, rounded of with the party's logo and a 'vote for us' graphic at the end. Just how relevant it was to the issues of the day is somewhat questionable, I mean what message was it putting across? How would you feel today if such a broadcast was put to you?

MB_Avro_UK
08-11-2008, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I also wondered this about Brit Guncam footage and asked a similar question myself a while back, possibly most has not been released by the national archive.

Same with RUssian, I think, we dont see much.

In fact possibly the USA is the only country who has made all of its guncam footage publically available. And this includes the Luftwaffe stuff they captured from the Nazis.

I have seen some not-very -good quality guncam footage from the battle of Britain 1940, but its hard to make out whats happening on some. Sort of hundreds of large smudges are he111's, you cannot see much gunfire.

Here you go, it has a sample of it. The last clip shows a good burst onto a He111 which starts smoking :-

http://rareaviation.com/av/RAFDemo.wvx

http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&p...4873&category_id=923 (http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=14873&category_id=923)

The quality is bad compared to later war guncams, plus remember that at this stage of the war the RAF was not too bothered about recording anything, as long as they stopped those bombers.

There MUST be thousands more guncams from the RAF, but they are possibly tucked away in the classified national archive . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'd not seen most of that footage before. Amazing how close the RAF pilots flew towards the He-111 bombers!

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

JSG72
08-11-2008, 03:50 PM
I Can understand where you are coming from Low_Flyer_MkIX (Darn I nearly posted MKXIV).

Truely/ I have to say that: In the '60s. It would be propaganda. In the'80s. It was whimsical thinking?


I truely don't want this thread to be posted "Off Topic".

I have said what I have said. I do not think it is contraversial. Maybes something to think about when playing this Sim? With thoughts of reality as opposed to performance? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I mean this. In all Theatres.

I truely find that. As far as IL2 is concerned. Our Russian Allies? Are trying their best to give themselves. "A Big Up". When In fact this didn't happen. It was the advent of Numbers and the realisation. that you don't go to War unless you know you Will win. that pushed those. Post 1942.5 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Anyways Japanese Guncam? Well? We had to show them how to mount it to start with. And to do that we had to win the War! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jaws2002
08-11-2008, 03:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I also wondered this about Brit Guncam footage and asked a similar question myself a while back, possibly most has not been released by the national archive.

Same with RUssian, I think, we dont see much.

In fact possibly the USA is the only country who has made all of its guncam footage publically available. And this includes the Luftwaffe stuff they captured from the Nazis.

I have seen some not-very -good quality guncam footage from the battle of Britain 1940, but its hard to make out whats happening on some. Sort of hundreds of large smudges are he111's, you cannot see much gunfire.

Here you go, it has a sample of it. The last clip shows a good burst onto a He111 which starts smoking :-

http://rareaviation.com/av/RAFDemo.wvx

http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&p...4873&category_id=923 (http://rareaviation.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=14873&category_id=923)

The quality is bad compared to later war guncams, plus remember that at this stage of the war the RAF was not too bothered about recording anything, as long as they stopped those bombers.

There MUST be thousands more guncams from the RAF, but they are possibly tucked away in the classified national archive . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many thanks for posting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'd not seen most of that footage before. Amazing how close the RAF pilots flew towards the He-111 bombers!

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1. Balls of steel. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Also what is shocking is the huge number of bombers in the air. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

MB_Avro_UK
08-11-2008, 04:10 PM
Hi all,

As regards British guncam film, most of it was probably destroyed by the British Government very soon after WW2 as being of no future use.

The US Government soon after WW2 ordered that an example of every US WW2 aircraft should be preserved.

This did not happen in Britain. As a result, we in Britain have no Hampden, Whitley, Halifax, Stirling and many more other examples.

Also,the British Enigma decoding apparatus which incorporated the world's first computer was destroyed very soon after WW2.

And if anyone calls me a Brit,I will not be offended. But if they call me a Brit Barsteward I will be http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Best Regards,
MB_Enigma.

mortoma
08-11-2008, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please refrain from using the term J** on these boards. It is considered a derrogatory term by most Japanese people.. especially American born ones... If in the future you want to use 3 letters consider IJN or IJA (Short for Imperial Japanese Navy/Army). This is the only warning you will recieve.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bearcat99, Mon August 11 2008 05:42 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sigh......PC junk!!!

JSG72
08-11-2008, 04:31 PM
Suppose. In the "Mists of time" I am. A "Cynical Old British Barsteward". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif MB.

BTW. The British. (Considering, that they did win the War.) Why didn't they celebrate the fact? (Like, every other Nation)?

They could not? because they were helped by "Polish, Dutch, Norwegian,French, South African, Australian, New Zealand, Indian , Canadian. Jewish and Palastinian, Belgian, Greek." And so on and so on. All countries that would, or could not show allegiance after WW2.

What are we to make of this? Of course it is part of the SIM.

DmdSeeker
08-11-2008, 04:43 PM
Shows the huge formations used.

The thought of ripping into that lot in a 3 ship Vic of Hurries, knowing well there's 110's and 109's waiting to pounce is nut chilling.

GBrutus
08-11-2008, 05:23 PM
Please stop using the term 'Brit'. Not that it is particularly offensive but it is bloody annoying...

Multimetal
08-11-2008, 10:20 PM
I've also wondered why we haven't seen more Russian footage. I read an interview with an IL2 pilot who said in the last 2 years of the war they all had guncams and often the rear gunner had a camera to film the results of their attacks. Part of me thinks that we haven't seen much or any of this in the west is because what's considered a target in the war zone (and not represented in-game, BTW) isn't quite PC these days-refugee columns, infantry columns, horse-drawn artillery, gun crews, truck drivers etc. getting blown to pieces wouldn't be too appetizing to watch.
I've had a feeling that much of the US gun camera footage that was considered offensive by the standards of the time-like showing people getting killed in strafing attacks, pilots getting hit bailing out, etc. was probably discarded. Gun camera footage is good to watch, but I always watch it with the idea in my head that I'm probably watching someone dying.

Xiolablu3
08-11-2008, 11:14 PM
Looks like that BOB footage could not stand being posted on this forum, the link no longer seems to work. Ooops

zardozid
08-12-2008, 01:32 PM
I don't know this for a fact...but if Japan ever had any "gun-camera" footage it is possible that it was destroyed by the military/pilots at the end of the war. Lots and lots of paper files and pictures/film where ether lost or burned/destroyed because they didn't want valuable information to fall into enemy hands...also buildings where bombed and burned...a lot of buildings.

Hoenire
08-14-2008, 04:17 PM
Its because pilots in the RAF and the IJN/IJA didn't have monster egos and had no need to show off their kills or how many horses they strafed.

Krt_Bong
08-14-2008, 04:32 PM
Wouldn't the fact that the Japanese fighting man considered that he might gain honor by dying in a fight preclude the necessity for GC footage? How would they plan on recovering it. Allied Pilots wish to live to see another day and oh, by the way look what I shot down today! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

thefruitbat
08-14-2008, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoenire:
Its because pilots in the RAF and the IJN/IJA didn't have monster egos and had no need to show off their kills or how many horses they strafed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

roflmao http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Hoenire FTW

fruitbat

Rjel
08-14-2008, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoenire:
Its because pilots in the RAF and the IJN/IJA didn't have monster egos and had no need to show off their kills or how many horses they strafed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So original. So old. [sigh]

Buzzsaw-
08-14-2008, 10:12 PM
Salute

The British and the Americans were the only airforces in WWII who used guncameras on a routine basis, mounted in every fighter aircraft, (consistently mounted after 1942 for the RAF, before that, not all aircraft had cameras) to record the results of combat and to confirm or deny kill/damage reports.

All the Luftwaffe guncam footage you see was recorded specially for training films and propaganda newreels. Cameras were not used routinely as a method to confirm kills/damage.

Compared to the amount of guncam recorded by the RAF/USAAF, the amount recorded by the Luftwaffe was tiny. But most of the German film was preserved, because the newreels and training films it was made into were widely distributed.

On the other hand 99% of the USAAF/RAF guncam footage was destroyed immediately after it was developed and examined to confirm the pilot reports. (the film was developed every time a claim was put in) Only those reels which were deemed worthwhile keeping for British or American propaganda newsreels were preserved, and most of the RAF/USAAF guncam we see is that which was used in the newsreels. In a few cases, the USAAF and RAF also mounted special cameras on the aircraft, to help in making documentaries. For example, the guncam footage used to make the documentary about OPERATION STRANGLE, the attacks on the Italian road system by Thunderbolts based on Corsica, used a mix of special mount cameras, and guncam. It was also in colour.

Also, some pilots liked to keep their guncam record of a kill, and this way, it also was preserved.

Filmstock is actually quite expensive, (the emulsion that backs on the celluloid is made largely from silver) and thus it requires a considerable investment to provide rolls for every sortie of every aircraft.

The USAAF went to colour filmstock in the late Pacific war.

R_Target
08-14-2008, 10:55 PM
Most of the color Pacific footage you'll see on youtube etc. is from VF-1 Hellcats specially equipped during the summer of 1944 as part of the filming of the USS Yorktown documentary "The Fighting Lady." I've even seen the same films with P-51 footage cut into it, probably by some editor hacking together some stock footage for a cheap TV doc.

Cdr. David McCampbell stated that, to his knowledge, VF-1 was the only USN unit equipped with color capability during his 1944 tour.

Hoenire
08-15-2008, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoenire:
Its because pilots in the RAF and the IJN/IJA didn't have monster egos and had no need to show off their kills or how many horses they strafed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

roflmao http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Hoenire FTW

fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
08-15-2008, 12:40 PM
I'm surprised they didn't use guncam film as pilot feedback, what they did right and wrong.
It works well when reviewing tracks in IL2.

When I worked in Manhattan there was a word that meant Jewish American Princess. I wouldn't
be surprised if someone else would not want to be associated. ;^)

Wildnoob
08-15-2008, 05:07 PM
by the way guys, I have a doubth about guncam already long ago.

did guncam also record audio ?

I already see some videos with audio, while others not.

the most high quality guncam movie with audio I ever see was the guncams of the the last bomb - US 1945 propaganda documentary.

here is most of guncams shots I was talking :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khNM7dt3TdU

but be aware that is a spoiler.

berg417448
08-15-2008, 05:17 PM
Gun cameras did not record audio. Any audio was dubbed in later just like laugh tracks for situation comedies on TV.

stalkervision
08-15-2008, 05:20 PM
Japanese gun camera footage right here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nLE7XQsiWY

Skoshi Tiger
08-15-2008, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I'm surprised they didn't use guncam film as pilot feedback, what they did right and wrong.
It works well when reviewing tracks in IL2.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH NO! Pilot Egos are far more important. What was the point of being a fighter ace if you couln't show the rest of the squadron how good you were at the Saturday Night Flicks!

It just like the USN films their carrier landings. Nothing to do with training, When you leave the service they present you with a mounted compilation DVD of your best 20 Landings, with Bloopers at the end!.



(I appoligise in advance to anyone associated with the USN for any offensive comments I may have made!)