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View Full Version : Will it happen - toning down sensitivity per WW2 pilots'



Haigotron
08-09-2006, 04:28 PM
well recently, there were these threads where a ww2 veteran tried out the game and said how the game's controls were too responsive. When they toned down the sensitivity, down to about 30% (dont quote me on that) he agreed that the sensitivity felt real

ill find the topic links in a bit

well, is it going to be toned down?

Haigotron
08-09-2006, 04:28 PM
well recently, there were these threads where a ww2 veteran tried out the game and said how the game's controls were too responsive. When they toned down the sensitivity, down to about 30% (dont quote me on that) he agreed that the sensitivity felt real

ill find the topic links in a bit

well, is it going to be toned down?

DIRTY-MAC
08-09-2006, 04:37 PM
Yah I heard that to!
wasnt it also something with doing so everybody would get the same kind of input although they use different joysticks and stuff?

thefruitbat
08-09-2006, 04:43 PM
hasnt this also got quite a bit to do with the lack of effect of real g forces, and also strengh and fatigue being moddeled?

vocatx
08-09-2006, 04:54 PM
More realism equals a better sim experience, in my opinion. I truly hope the new FM will include better, more true to life handling. I think it's supposed to be in the fabled 4.06m, isn't it?

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 05:33 PM
Here's the link to the original article:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/664...661042752#2661042752 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6641041752?r=2661042752#2661042752)

Keep in mind that the flight model has changed since that article was written.

With that said, I use Capt. Brown's settings and I really like them except for the rudder settings. The rudder settings make it almost impossible to taxi (at least in a B-25) and don't allow for large rudder movements so I ended up tweaking them a little.

But the other settings work great. They give me much more control although I'm sure it depends a little on the joystick. The Saitek Cyborg is quite light and these settings helped quite a bit.

My main joystick has 19 pound springs and I really have to push it to manuever but the fine control is awesome. Also, I really notice torque now. The plane is much easier to roll to the left then to the right which is something real WWII pilots had to deal with.

I've heard others complain that these settings put pilots at a disadvantage compared to someone with a more standard joystick profile but I haven't had any problem. I do recommend learning how to use trim though if you decide to give these settings a try.

S!

polak5
08-09-2006, 05:44 PM
Thx for reminding me Moses, i forgot to get to given those settings a shot! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

HayateAce
08-09-2006, 05:44 PM
they should.

P51 would then historically own the clown-like 109 we currently have.

steve_v
08-09-2006, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
They give me much more control although I'm sure it depends a little on the joystick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between joysticks. Identical settings when used with a CH Fighterstick and X45 produce differing results.

strider1
08-09-2006, 06:59 PM
Hi, All. steve-v, which stick do you think, given our individual sensitivities, reaction time,experience, etc., would you say these settings are more appropriate for? I recognise that some people's unique talents in one area or another may make one or the other stick the best for him/her but on average is my question. I suspect it's a matter of each trying both sticks and going with their individual preference. Is there that much of an effect difference between sticks? Just wondering what your highly-respected opinion would be. Best regards, Strider1

T_O_A_D
08-09-2006, 07:17 PM
With adjustable stick settings in the game, we will never compete the same.
So I guess we all have to own the same stick, same machine, same connection to make it fair enough to lock the games settings for everyone the same.
Side note:
FM arguments really hold no water with me, since we have the above problems.

TheGozr
08-09-2006, 07:31 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 100 % agree
http://www.gozr.net/iocl/images/smiles/G_Approval.jpg

Haigotron
08-09-2006, 07:37 PM
Sweet!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Therefore, it will be like rediscovering the game all over again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Who's with me? Let's storm an embassy in happiness http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by steve_v:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
They give me much more control although I'm sure it depends a little on the joystick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There is a difference between joysticks. Identical settings when used with a CH Fighterstick and X45 produce differing results. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For sure. I'm used to moving a big, meaty, glass filled, ABS plastic monstrosity. When I grab the Cyborg I'm all over the place. It has absolutely no resistance. I like not being able to jerk the stick around...although my fingers start to go numb after awhile.

StellarRat
08-09-2006, 08:25 PM
The distance of travel that our joysticks have compared to a real WW II stick is quite small. This is the real reason they are "too sensitive". Our sticks are far more suited to FBW jets than the old stick on the floor fighters of WWII. The problem is that it is necessary to achieve full deflection on the controls when the stick is all the way to one axis. If you tone the sensitivity too much this will not be possible, however, for fighting you can usually get by will about 1/2 of the full deflection because you will black out before that anyway at high speeds.

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
With adjustable stick settings in the game, we will never compete the same.
So I guess we all have to own the same stick, same machine, same connection to make it fair enough to lock the games settings for everyone the same.
Side note:
FM arguments really hold no water with me, since we have the above problems. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, no way around that problem.

However, I don't think it's as bad as all that. Good pilots get that way by sticking to one aircraft and learning its' pros and cons. I imagine it's the same with joysticks. If you use one long enough you'll figure out how to move it to make the aircraft do what you want it to do.

Charos
08-09-2006, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
they should.

P51 would then historically own the clown-like 109 we currently have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes true, if all control surfaces were modelled to the high order of precision that the BF109 elevator is you could all be enjoying the 10 second sustained turns 109 jocks take for granted.

I just max my Cougar exponential rates out and set all ingame to 100% throws - that plus analogue trim allows a K4 to turn on a dime.


Drinking Blue Whine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif since 2001.

Cajun76
08-09-2006, 08:56 PM
I use default for my rudder at the moment, but since I fly the Jug a lot, I need fine control without big inputs bleeding my speed. I currently use the X-52 with no settings loaded, and have adjusted the in game curve to this:

1X=1 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 83 100
1Y=3 9 16 23 32 43 55 69 83 100

I mainly fly the "energy" fighters like the P-47 and Fw-190. The default Fw roll is too fast for me compared to the movement of the stick, so that's the main reason I toned down the Y a bit. This helps balance the ratio between the roll rate and pitch rate for me. It's really about personal taste and the "throw" of your stick, so these might be unsuited for some fliers and sticks out there.

Crash_Moses
08-09-2006, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StellarRat:
The distance of travel that our joysticks have compared to a real WW II stick is quite small. This is the real reason they are "too sensitive". Our sticks are far more suited to FBW jets than the old stick on the floor fighters of WWII. The problem is that it is necessary to achieve full deflection on the controls when the stick is all the way to one axis. If you tone the sensitivity too much this will not be possible, however, for fighting you can usually get by will about 1/2 of the full deflection because you will black out before that anyway at high speeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of an old topic. In fact, I think it was one of the Eric Brown topics. Not 100% sure though.

Someone had taken an old joystick and mounted it on a 3' piece of pipe (or something similar) and then attached the pipe to the base of the joystick. Hmmm...I'll have to hunt that down...

I think my next joystick will be the CH Flight Sim Yoke. It's about as close to the B-25 controls as I'm going to get.

TC_Stele
08-09-2006, 11:22 PM
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure.

Prop_Strike
08-10-2006, 12:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you'll find that for the most part, those guncam films you see are slowed down a lot.....probably half speed. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are a 1/3 to a 1/4 speed.

WOLFMondo
08-10-2006, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your average WW2 pilot couldn't pull full deflection on all the control surfaces 100% of the time at all the speed ranges, they simply were not strong enough, thats why. And some are slowed down. Sim pilots are not restricted to fatigue or strength limitations.

WWMaxGunz
08-10-2006, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your average WW2 pilot couldn't pull full deflection on all the control surfaces 100% of the time at all the speed ranges, they simply were not strong enough, thats why. And some are slowed down. Sim pilots are not restricted to fatigue or strength limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. When you pull 1/2 stick at lowspeed it will get more
control surface deflection than at mid or high speed. Depending on design of the plane and
speed and alt (including modelled, not perfect, mach effect and surface bulging, etc) the
lesser deflection at higher speed will be exactly offset by the stronger force on the plane
also by the higher speed. At some point ALL of these planes hit a limit by size of the
control surface and/or the methods of hinging, balance, and other tricks which then you get
effects like the well documented degradations of maximum roll rates observable on any roll
rate comparison charts of the time.

Be aware that halfway back stick at the start of a turn will not result in the same elevator
deflection as halfway back on the stick when the plane has bled off speed. Make a track
where you do this and know your joystick is held steady during a turn that's losing speed
and play it back with your view down at the stick in the plane. Then do the same where
the plane is buffetting in turn or climb. Think about how your control is through bungee,
not by position but rather by force only.

It has advantages and disadvantages this way. If you are aware and act accordingly then
you will not be caught out and many things declared as bugs you will understand as control
errors by people who do not understand what they are using. Stick all the way back only
means pulling with appx 50 lbs force. Not full deflection. Add trim and same force gets
different deflection. It is as real, not some cheat. You can't get realistic trim when
joystick position plus trim equals deflection -- that is false trim and disadvantage of the
joystick equals deflection method.

WWMaxGunz
08-10-2006, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Haigotron:
well recently, there were these threads where a ww2 veteran tried out the game and said how the game's controls were too responsive. When they toned down the sensitivity, down to about 30% (dont quote me on that) he agreed that the sensitivity felt real

ill find the topic links in a bit

well, is it going to be toned down? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean the original thread about the British group that got the famous British Ace and
long-time Aviator to try the sim and they wound up toning the sliders down to where the
highest was set at 30? That was a long time ago, year plus ago. Just lately someone
brought the point back up as happens time to time. And we have seen an Oleg post about
handling change based on those kinds of input from pilots.

However UBI has gone anal-retentive over anti-piracy so we haven't gotten the long-ago
released in Russia 4.06 that may have the change and for my part I may not be able to
use that addon due to whatever BS UBI decides is neccessary to install it. W98SE here,
paid for 4.05 and had to get it through another PC with XP. If 4.06 requires Boonty
be on my machine or some new gotta-have-XP-screw-anyone-who-don't (I guess my MONEY is
something they don't want with W98 users in such a minority... up yers then UBI!) trick
then until I do a massive upgrade I won't be sending any more money to UBI and only then
because Maddox Games may still be working through them... and there's no Starfarce or
other we-pwn-your-PC attachment to such products.

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your average WW2 pilot couldn't pull full deflection on all the control surfaces 100% of the time at all the speed ranges, they simply were not strong enough, thats why. And some are slowed down. Sim pilots are not restricted to fatigue or strength limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. When you pull 1/2 stick at lowspeed it will get more
control surface deflection than at mid or high speed. Depending on design of the plane and
speed and alt (including modelled, not perfect, mach effect and surface bulging, etc) the
lesser deflection at higher speed will be exactly offset by the stronger force on the plane
also by the higher speed. At some point ALL of these planes hit a limit by size of the
control surface and/or the methods of hinging, balance, and other tricks which then you get
effects like the well documented degradations of maximum roll rates observable on any roll
rate comparison charts of the time.

Be aware that halfway back stick at the start of a turn will not result in the same elevator
deflection as halfway back on the stick when the plane has bled off speed. Make a track
where you do this and know your joystick is held steady during a turn that's losing speed
and play it back with your view down at the stick in the plane. Then do the same where
the plane is buffetting in turn or climb. Think about how your control is through bungee,
not by position but rather by force only.

It has advantages and disadvantages this way. If you are aware and act accordingly then
you will not be caught out and many things declared as bugs you will understand as control
errors by people who do not understand what they are using. Stick all the way back only
means pulling with appx 50 lbs force. Not full deflection. Add trim and same force gets
different deflection. It is as real, not some cheat. You can't get realistic trim when
joystick position plus trim equals deflection -- that is false trim and disadvantage of the
joystick equals deflection method. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've noticed this on the rare occasion I hop into a fighter. Especially in a tight turn. As I pull into the turn and start to lose speed I need to pull back on the joystick more and more in order to maintain the same turn rate. Makes sense.

WOLFMondo
08-10-2006, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your average WW2 pilot couldn't pull full deflection on all the control surfaces 100% of the time at all the speed ranges, they simply were not strong enough, thats why. And some are slowed down. Sim pilots are not restricted to fatigue or strength limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. When you pull 1/2 stick at lowspeed it will get more
control surface deflection than at mid or high speed. Depending on design of the plane and
speed and alt (including modelled, not perfect, mach effect and surface bulging, etc) the
lesser deflection at higher speed will be exactly offset by the stronger force on the plane
also by the higher speed. At some point ALL of these planes hit a limit by size of the
control surface and/or the methods of hinging, balance, and other tricks which then you get
effects like the well documented degradations of maximum roll rates observable on any roll
rate comparison charts of the time.

Be aware that halfway back stick at the start of a turn will not result in the same elevator
deflection as halfway back on the stick when the plane has bled off speed. Make a track
where you do this and know your joystick is held steady during a turn that's losing speed
and play it back with your view down at the stick in the plane. Then do the same where
the plane is buffetting in turn or climb. Think about how your control is through bungee,
not by position but rather by force only.

It has advantages and disadvantages this way. If you are aware and act accordingly then
you will not be caught out and many things declared as bugs you will understand as control
errors by people who do not understand what they are using. Stick all the way back only
means pulling with appx 50 lbs force. Not full deflection. Add trim and same force gets
different deflection. It is as real, not some cheat. You can't get realistic trim when
joystick position plus trim equals deflection -- that is false trim and disadvantage of the
joystick equals deflection method. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to meet the pilot who can maintain 50lbs force for a prolonged period of time.

BOA_Allmenroder
08-10-2006, 07:42 AM
The US NAVY Blue Angels rig their current aircraft to require 35lbs of force to maintain a 'neutral' position. In fact, applicants are tested as to whether they can hold this 35 lbs for the 45 minutes or so required in a flight demonstration.

The real life issue is whether the designers of the aircraft had the joystick lenght long enough so that the appropriate mechanical leverage could be obtained to hold 'x' amount of pressure.

Recall the ME 262 had an extra long joystick (compared to other German prop aircraft) in order for the pilot to gain/maintain this advantage at the higher speeds the aircraft operated in.

Haigotron
08-10-2006, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Recall the ME 262 had an extra long joystick (compared to other German prop aircraft) in order for the pilot to gain/maintain this advantage at the higher speeds the aircraft operated in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Havent noticed, will check tonight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-10-2006, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crash_Moses:
I've noticed this on the rare occasion I hop into a fighter. Especially in a tight turn. As I pull into the turn and start to lose speed I need to pull back on the joystick more and more in order to maintain the same turn rate. Makes sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really if you hold your joystick steady then look down and see the virtual stick move as
the back forces from the elevator lessen with lowering speed.

WWMaxGunz
08-10-2006, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I'd like to meet the pilot who can maintain 50lbs force for a prolonged period of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, young and fit individuals can for longer periods than average people would think.
It depends on your idea of prolonged and I am sure that how many G's the pilot experiences
while holding that is another big factor. I still shadow-boxed with 25-lb dumbells years
after I got out of the service but holding 50 lbs out unmoving at arms length for over 30
seconds was a strain even then. Gotta move that arm or man do the muscles burn!

There have been a few good threads about modelling pilot fatigue I am sure you remember.
I'm all for it but it's past the detail level of the IL2 series. And besides, the 109
fans would totally freak if the strength limit went down to the 30 lbs of some charts.
NACA did use 30-40-50 lbs on charts, you know.

That all aside, I guess the difference between strength-based stick interface and position
based stick interface is clear?

Crash_Moses
08-10-2006, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TC_Stele:
It makes sense when you see old WW2 footage. The planes seem to be responding much slower than what I see in IL2. Then again the frame rates and speed of the footage may not be real time, so I'm not sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your average WW2 pilot couldn't pull full deflection on all the control surfaces 100% of the time at all the speed ranges, they simply were not strong enough, thats why. And some are slowed down. Sim pilots are not restricted to fatigue or strength limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. When you pull 1/2 stick at lowspeed it will get more
control surface deflection than at mid or high speed. Depending on design of the plane and
speed and alt (including modelled, not perfect, mach effect and surface bulging, etc) the
lesser deflection at higher speed will be exactly offset by the stronger force on the plane
also by the higher speed. At some point ALL of these planes hit a limit by size of the
control surface and/or the methods of hinging, balance, and other tricks which then you get
effects like the well documented degradations of maximum roll rates observable on any roll
rate comparison charts of the time.

Be aware that halfway back stick at the start of a turn will not result in the same elevator
deflection as halfway back on the stick when the plane has bled off speed. Make a track
where you do this and know your joystick is held steady during a turn that's losing speed
and play it back with your view down at the stick in the plane. Then do the same where
the plane is buffetting in turn or climb. Think about how your control is through bungee,
not by position but rather by force only.

It has advantages and disadvantages this way. If you are aware and act accordingly then
you will not be caught out and many things declared as bugs you will understand as control
errors by people who do not understand what they are using. Stick all the way back only
means pulling with appx 50 lbs force. Not full deflection. Add trim and same force gets
different deflection. It is as real, not some cheat. You can't get realistic trim when
joystick position plus trim equals deflection -- that is false trim and disadvantage of the
joystick equals deflection method. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to meet the pilot who can maintain 50lbs force for a prolonged period of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can't. That's what trim is for.

Poorly modeled or not, trim is your friend! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Charos
08-10-2006, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This idea the game utilises would be fine if all AC had the same control surface parameters -but of course they do not.

Trim on the BF109 takes a good 8 seconds to dial in maximum throw, and another 8 Seconds to wind off again.

In a AC like a BF109 alot depends on the first pass - after all this is what the planes tactics are all about - High speed slashing passes.

By limiting the Throw to 50Lbs no matter what the game does not allow for a one off large application of strength - which is all the BF109 pilot requires to make the first pass count.

Without a stamina bank account the game leans very heavilly to highly maneuverable AC who can yank and bank at will all day, that combined with limited Pilot G affects and simplified pilot worklaod all stacks up against German AC in particular.

In particular simplified pilot workload goes againt the FW190 the most as the benefits of the KommandoGerat are never realised, in the game this device is reduced to excess ballast.

HellToupee
08-11-2006, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

It is exactly the opposite in the whole IL2 series. Pilots are limited to appx 50 lbs pull
in all planes. When you move your JOYSTICK it is command the model pilot to apply a certain
amount of strength to the stick in the model and that strength counters control forces by the
historic leverages and backforces. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This idea the game utilises would be fine if all AC had the same control surface parameters -but of course they do not.

Trim on the BF109 takes a good 8 seconds to dial in maximum throw, and another 8 Seconds to wind off again.

In a AC like a BF109 alot depends on the first pass - after all this is what the planes tactics are all about - High speed slashing passes.

By limiting the Throw to 50Lbs no matter what the game does not allow for a one off large application of strength - which is all the BF109 pilot requires to make the first pass count.

Without a stamina bank account the game leans very heavilly to highly maneuverable AC who can yank and bank at will all day, that combined with limited Pilot G affects and simplified pilot worklaod all stacks up against German AC in particular.

In particular simplified pilot workload goes againt the FW190 the most as the benefits of the KommandoGerat are never realised, in the game this device is reduced to excess ballast. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but then what advantages will KommandoGerat bring with stick senstivity? none at all. It made things easy for the pilot but then the very plane 190 pilots whine about the spitfire also made things very easy on the pilot with most things automated.

Without stamina the game does not lean heavily towards highly maneuverable ac, stamina would most likely penalise more the pilots who fly at high speeds, pulling up from high speed dives is more tiring and looping around at medium speeds.

One large application of strength u think u pilots could aim with any sort of accuracy while pulling as hard as they could with two hands on the stick?

Von_Rat
08-11-2006, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Without stamina the game does not lean heavily towards highly maneuverable ac, stamina would most likely penalise more the pilots who fly at high speeds, pulling up from high speed dives is more tiring and looping around at medium speeds.

One large application of strength u think u pilots could aim with any sort of accuracy while pulling as hard as they could with two hands on the stick? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


you make what, one hi speed dive, then a slow climb back up to alt. thats what i do. i rarely pull many gs even doing that. i'll glady pay a higher stamina plenty for that one dive, as long as spits cant go turning and looping forever without no stamina penalty.

he didnt say pulling as hard as they could.

having a artificial limit of 50lbs, is dumb. im sure if your life depended on it you could pull harder than that and aim accuratlly, at least once. of course this would be more tiring than pulling 50lbs. so you pay a stamina penalty.

in other words, in the game its possiable to pull 50lbs, and aim good, but not possiable to pull 55lbs and aim good. hell the game doesnt allow you to pull 55lbs whether your aiming or not.

WOLFMondo
08-11-2006, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I'd like to meet the pilot who can maintain 50lbs force for a prolonged period of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, young and fit individuals can for longer periods than average people would think.
It depends on your idea of prolonged and I am sure that how many G's the pilot experiences
while holding that is another big factor. I still shadow-boxed with 25-lb dumbells years
after I got out of the service but holding 50 lbs out unmoving at arms length for over 30
seconds was a strain even then. Gotta move that arm or man do the muscles burn!

There have been a few good threads about modelling pilot fatigue I am sure you remember.
I'm all for it but it's past the detail level of the IL2 series. And besides, the 109
fans would totally freak if the strength limit went down to the 30 lbs of some charts.
NACA did use 30-40-50 lbs on charts, you know.

That all aside, I guess the difference between strength-based stick interface and position
based stick interface is clear? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just go based on what I know. Just going and doing a weight session doing 6 to 8 sets of 10 reps is punishing and 50lbs on some muscle groups isn't lite work and you'll feel it the following day! Bare in mind doing crucifixs with 50lbs is real large body builder territory (even doing 25lbs with a correct posture is tough if your doing a ton of reps) and you have to be very fit to do butterflies with 50lbs on each side. Continued pressure at 50lbs is really very punishing. A contined sustained turn at 50lbs is one thing but applying 50lbs in a roll, then reversing it and maintaining the 50lbs through say 20 back and forth movements of the stick, continually rolling will really hurt.

I know guys will come on and say I can do this and I can do that but doing repeated excercise on a muscle group is not only extremely tiring it gets to a point where you just can't do it any more and have to rest and eat, and 50lbs isn't exactly a lite stick force. Its damn heavy. Any guys here who do weights regularly will know what I mean.

I once saw an interview with a Tigercat pilots, he stated after flying a display that lasted 10 minutes he felt like knackered.

WWMaxGunz
08-11-2006, 05:44 AM
It takes one key or button to neutralize trim on any axis instantly.
And pulling back with two arms at high speed ... what pilot would jerk that move?
So you go into the dive and you do not trim nose down but rather push forward stick.
Trimming nose down you already handicap yourself and rob away much strength. If
you need to then tap in then tap nose up 6 quick ones. Just let the stick go in
a test dive and see where your lift takes you. Trim for 320kph and dive to 600.

For me it is simpler. I shoot from farther out since high closing speed makes my
shots effectively at shorter range. If the target makes a hard turn when I am 300+
meters back then my small turn covers his move very easily and if he waits till I
am under 150 meters to turn then he has already taken my fire since I start from
about 400 meters out! I had a wingmate who was tops in another sim. We would
switch positions as circumstances provided like after a turn who was in front lead.
If the target avoided the leader then the wingmate was in great position to make
the kill. BTW, FW's with maximum guns make better BnZ though many times I have had
to approach flying upside down to keep target in view and that is really only good
with bombers that don't react so well, but it does allow major deflection that the
AI never seems to figure out.

Charos
08-11-2006, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
but then what advantages will KommandoGerat bring with stick senstivity? none at all. It made things easy for the pilot but then the very plane 190 pilots whine about the spitfire also made things very easy on the pilot with most things automated.

Without stamina the game does not lean heavily towards highly maneuverable ac, stamina would most likely penalise more the pilots who fly at high speeds, pulling up from high speed dives is more tiring and looping around at medium speeds.

One large application of strength u think u pilots could aim with any sort of accuracy while pulling as hard as they could with two hands on the stick? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didnt say the Kommandogerat would offer anything to a pilot in regards to stick sensitivity in the FW190, I mentioned pilot workload benefits which does translate to more HOTAS time for the pilot.

The Spitfire was just one adversary of the FW190, one of a great many.

If a Real Life FW190 were to execute a split S and drop 3000M the Kommandogerat tweaks in real time - the pilot never has to compromise maneaverability to engine management duties. In IL2 all Allied AC will perform at or near optimum the whole way down the kommandgerate is therefore rendered useless and becomes ballast.

This has a two fold affect.

#1 Extra weight on a high wing loaded plane like a FW190.

#2 Power loading directly affects sustained maneuvers.

Haveing an elevator for instance that is nice and light is fine but if the pilot under combat pressure fails to maintain engine perameters at or near optimum it will affect maneaverability.

An engine may over-rev, heat faster than normal, run rough etc. In this case the FW190 manages to retain maneaverability at optimum levels while another AC's power loading drops off and hence in sustained combat the FW190 may maintain higher energy levels.



In combat physical fatigue is one factor, mental fatigue is yet another. Continued exertion
not only taxes the body more but also the mind that combined with prolonged exposure to G affects is accumulative.

Short intense exposure is tolerable most times with minimal affects but prolonged medium exertion in aerial combat is positively exhausting, this is whoefully reflected in IL2.

HellToupee
08-11-2006, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you make what, one hi speed dive, then a slow climb back up to alt. thats what i do. i rarely pull many gs even doing that. i'll glady pay a higher stamina plenty for that one dive, as long as spits cant go turning and looping forever without no stamina penalty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but then a spit would still be able to avoid such an attack no differnt to now with stamina, if you make only one pass every so often. Flying around looping and stuff is not even that tiring unless your doing it at extreme speeds fighting blackout or handling heavy controls. Current fighter pilots get tired pulling high g manovers because they are trained to work all their muscles to stop blood draining from their head and blacking out that is what tires them out mostly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
he didnt say pulling as hard as they could.

having a artificial limit of 50lbs, is dumb. im sure if your life depended on it you could pull harder than that and aim accuratlly, at least once. of course this would be more tiring than pulling 50lbs. so you pay a stamina penalty.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

50lbs is quite a bit of force, thats over 20kg you can probly pull more than that with 2 hands but that is very heavy handed accuracy while pulling like that would very much suffer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
in other words, in the game its possiable to pull 50lbs, and aim good, but not possiable to pull 55lbs and aim good. hell the game doesnt allow you to pull 55lbs whether your aiming or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes its a game and we feel no forces on the stick we probly put less than lb of force into our sticks, so there must be limits or u could just raise the sensitivty up so at high speed 109 could have a elevator as light as a spitfire.

WWMaxGunz
08-11-2006, 06:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I just go based on what I know. Just going and doing a weight session doing 6 to 8 sets of 10 reps is punishing and 50lbs on some muscle groups isn't lite work and you'll feel it the following day! Bare in mind doing crucifixs with 50lbs is real large body builder territory (even doing 25lbs with a correct posture is tough if your doing a ton of reps) and you have to be very fit to do butterflies with 50lbs on each side. Continued pressure at 50lbs is really very punishing. A contined sustained turn at 50lbs is one thing but applying 50lbs in a roll, then reversing it and maintaining the 50lbs through say 20 back and forth movements of the stick, continually rolling will really hurt.

I know guys will come on and say I can do this and I can do that but doing repeated excercise on a muscle group is not only extremely tiring it gets to a point where you just can't do it any more and have to rest and eat, and 50lbs isn't exactly a lite stick force. Its damn heavy. Any guys here who do weights regularly will know what I mean.

I once saw an interview with a Tigercat pilots, he stated after flying a display that lasted 10 minutes he felt like knackered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know. My boxing with the weights was part of my 30-min gym workouts that I bicycled to
and away from in some decently long and steep hills. But I was young then, mid-20's, and
in exceptional health and had not messed my back, neck, shoulder and leg all to H.
The thing is I was no Schwartzenegger either, I matched US astronaut size and build only.
I could also do 50 pushups fast and still slapfight when I got tricked into the pushups
by my HS nephew. Boy was he surprised! It hurt the first two stretches but I nailed his
wise grin good. And again, I've known many others that put me to shame.

Those pilots were not wimps or even average. They did regular PT if not to Marine or Army
levels still they worked out. And as above and as Bud Anderson attests, that's what trim
is for IRL. What pilot would not trim most of the force away in SUSTAINED turns?

You talk of moving the stick back and forth at 50 lbs and I can tell you now that no way
the 50 lbs is maintained. In that kind of fight you don't hold it back for long and in
between the stick is assisting you half the time. Still hard work but not what it sounds
like. Very hard work really. In his bio Chuck Yeager wrote that they would lose pounds
in just one flight from the workout and sweating. They were all the time under weight
during combat. When he got back after being shot down and escaping (with help) to Spain
he had been eating bananas and resting and said he got fat compared and could see it.

It's the G's more than the stick. A fighter moving slow in sustained circles will get
full deflection with less than 50 lbs pull. Holding near 3 G's sustained for 4 or 5
turns at maneuver speed is another matter but then that may be why some planes had more
leverage and less stick force and still the smart pilots used trim to lessen that... as
in they didn't trim the turn neutral.

Look at 109. Short stick in a narrow cockpit (longer stick would limit side deflection)
and designed for ... well not a stall fighter but rather a slashing killer.

Yeah two arms for limited time, pilot endurance would need to be modelled, trim does the
job. I see that 8 seconds to full but full is not needed. Better tactics are.

Why cry about what we have not? Esp those who do not use what they have? Whiners.

WWMaxGunz
08-11-2006, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
in other words, in the game its possiable to pull 50lbs, and aim good, but not possiable to pull 55lbs and aim good. hell the game doesnt allow you to pull 55lbs whether your aiming or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on how fast you're going, 6 taps only of nose up and you have effectively 60 lbs
on the elevator. Takes no time at all. Realistic? Enough, yes. One key to neutral trim,
as quick as letting the stick go. Quicker than 109 manual pitch and throttle braking can
lower your speed to where neutral trim is "normal". Quicker even than stall speed bleed.

What plane do you find so hard to turn with at the speeds where 109 has limited elevator?
Oh no, this for the highspeed pullout, right? Use the trim. Going medium to slow the 109
has no limits to elevator.

Charos
08-11-2006, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
in other words, in the game its possiable to pull 50lbs, and aim good, but not possiable to pull 55lbs and aim good. hell the game doesnt allow you to pull 55lbs whether your aiming or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on how fast you're going, 6 taps only of nose up and you have effectively 60 lbs
on the elevator. Takes no time at all. Realistic? Enough, yes. One key to neutral trim,
as quick as letting the stick go. Quicker than 109 manual pitch and throttle braking can
lower your speed to where neutral trim is "normal". Quicker even than stall speed bleed.

What plane do you find so hard to turn with at the speeds where 109 has limited elevator?
Oh no, this for the highspeed pullout, right? Use the trim. Going medium to slow the 109
has no limits to elevator. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From memory it takes 8 seconds to obtain full elevator trim deflection both positive and negative from neutral in a BF109 in IL2.

Winding too much in cant be corrected by stick pressure as its useless at high speed and judging how much to dial in is often impossible for High speed accurate guns passes.

At 600km/h your covering 166M a second in 4 seconds you have covered 666M.

If you require 150M speration at fireing time then you need to start applying trim at approx 816M from target- any change in target course with trim lagg will be near impossible to follow.

Trim is next to useless in that circumstance.

Von_Rat
08-11-2006, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but then a spit would still be able to avoid such an attack no differnt to now with stamina, if you make only one pass every so often. Flying around looping and stuff is not even that tiring unless your doing it at extreme speeds fighting blackout or handling heavy controls. Current fighter pilots get tired pulling high g manovers because they are trained to work all their muscles to stop blood draining from their head and blacking out that is what tires them out mostly.
__________________________________________________ __

im not talking about a spit avoiding one plane, that only occaisionally dives, im talking about the endless looping and hi aoa turns that i see spits doing while avoiding several planes. if you think that all that constant dodging wouldnt drain a pilots stamina, well i just dont know what else to say.



</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

50lbs is quite a bit of force, thats over 20kg you can probly pull more than that with 2 hands but that is very heavy handed accuracy while pulling like that would very much suffer.


yes its a game and we feel no forces on the stick we probly put less than lb of force into our sticks, so there must be limits or u could just raise the sensitivty up so at high speed 109 could have a elevator as light as a spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


as far as stick limits, yes there must be limits. but 50lbs is just a abritary number. with stamina you have the flexiable application of strength, just like real life. you can exert more force for brief period, but you get tired. so a 09 couldnt match spits light controls, because pilot would quickly become to tired.

a pilot aiming probaly would be affected by using higher than 50lbs stick force, this could be reflected in the game. as it is, being able to aim good at 50lbs, but unable to move stick at all at 55lbs, is just stupid.

HellToupee
08-11-2006, 08:36 AM
takes far less than 8 seconds to start having an immediate effect, pushing the slider to full up results in the nose pulling up quickly straight away using full up trim in a 109 will black u out at high speed.

IMO it takes no where near 8 seconds.

HellToupee
08-11-2006, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but then a spit would still be able to avoid such an attack no differnt to now with stamina, if you make only one pass every so often. Flying around looping and stuff is not even that tiring unless your doing it at extreme speeds fighting blackout or handling heavy controls. Current fighter pilots get tired pulling high g manovers because they are trained to work all their muscles to stop blood draining from their head and blacking out that is what tires them out mostly.
__________________________________________________ __

im not talking about a spit avoiding one plane, that only occaisionally dives, im talking about the endless looping and hi aoa turns that i see spits doing while avoiding several planes. if you think that all that constant dodging wouldnt drain a pilots stamina, well i just dont know what else to say.



</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

50lbs is quite a bit of force, thats over 20kg you can probly pull more than that with 2 hands but that is very heavy handed accuracy while pulling like that would very much suffer.


yes its a game and we feel no forces on the stick we probly put less than lb of force into our sticks, so there must be limits or u could just raise the sensitivty up so at high speed 109 could have a elevator as light as a spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


as far as stick limits, yes there must be limits. but 50lbs is just a abritary number. with stamina you have the flexiable application of strength, just like real life. you can exert more force for brief period, but you get tired. so a 09 couldnt match spits light controls, because pilot would quickly become to tired.

a pilot aiming probaly would be affected by using higher than 50lbs stick force, this could be reflected in the game. as it is, being able to aim good at 50lbs, but unable to move stick at all at 55lbs, is just stupid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could it be reflected in game? how could stamina be reflected in game have a bar saying this is your energy?

Have a few more lbs wont change things much, a 109s controls were heavy at speed spply 5 more lbs its still not gona help much need more turn theres the trim.

Von_Rat
08-11-2006, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but then a spit would still be able to avoid such an attack no differnt to now with stamina, if you make only one pass every so often. Flying around looping and stuff is not even that tiring unless your doing it at extreme speeds fighting blackout or handling heavy controls. Current fighter pilots get tired pulling high g manovers because they are trained to work all their muscles to stop blood draining from their head and blacking out that is what tires them out mostly.
__________________________________________________ __

im not talking about a spit avoiding one plane, that only occaisionally dives, im talking about the endless looping and hi aoa turns that i see spits doing while avoiding several planes. if you think that all that constant dodging wouldnt drain a pilots stamina, well i just dont know what else to say.



</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

50lbs is quite a bit of force, thats over 20kg you can probly pull more than that with 2 hands but that is very heavy handed accuracy while pulling like that would very much suffer.


yes its a game and we feel no forces on the stick we probly put less than lb of force into our sticks, so there must be limits or u could just raise the sensitivty up so at high speed 109 could have a elevator as light as a spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


as far as stick limits, yes there must be limits. but 50lbs is just a abritary number. with stamina you have the flexiable application of strength, just like real life. you can exert more force for brief period, but you get tired. so a 09 couldnt match spits light controls, because pilot would quickly become to tired.

a pilot aiming probaly would be affected by using higher than 50lbs stick force, this could be reflected in the game. as it is, being able to aim good at 50lbs, but unable to move stick at all at 55lbs, is just stupid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could it be reflected in game? how could stamina be reflected in game have a bar saying this is your energy?

Have a few more lbs wont change things much, a 109s controls were heavy at speed spply 5 more lbs its still not gona help much need more turn theres the trim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


every pilot mentions how tiring dogfighting is, imo its esstential to have it for realism. oleg already has said it will be in bob, how it will be implented, who knows.

i just mentioned 55lbs as a example, if its 50 why not 55? if you were diving and had to yank back on stick im willing to bet you could pull alot harder than 50lbs, not just 5lbs more either.

Crash_Moses
08-11-2006, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
How could it be reflected in game? how could stamina be reflected in game have a bar saying this is your energy?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...that's an interesting thought. Maybe something like the crew fatigue modeled in Silent Hunter III? I've always thought that was a great touch.

Your energy would decrease depending on stick force and slowly recharge while cruising with a properly trimmed plane maybe?

Now there's a thought...

Charos
08-12-2006, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
takes far less than 8 seconds to start having an immediate effect, pushing the slider to full up results in the nose pulling up quickly straight away using full up trim in a 109 will black u out at high speed.

IMO it takes no where near 8 seconds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A test I just did now on the K4 reveals its 5 seconds from full down to full up deflection or 2.5 Seconds either positive or negative, so indeed your correct.

While its alot less than I quoted (it may have changed over the last few patches).

This still can result in up to 565M lead time at 600KM/H with 2.5 second delay (with the figures I quoted earlier - as I only used 4 seconds in that example not the full 8).

The other comments I made still hold true.