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Pirschjaeger
11-14-2005, 11:23 PM
Hi All,

I've been thinking of this for quite sometime and think it's about time I start it.

Although this forum is English our community is international and therefore multilingual. Many of the members are not native speakers of English and their levels vary widely. Many "English Second Language" (ESL) speakers want to improve their English and I thought it would be great if our community could offer support, advice, and answers to the many questions asked.

I propose we use this thread to offer advice and answers, not debate or argue about English. The ESL members could post their questions and get answers, therefore improving their English skills.

An example: When do we us "in" and "at"?

This is a common question among ESL students. The funny thing is that the majority of native English speakers do not know the answer, although they instinctively know the correct usage.

When do we use "in" and "at"?(Regarding location)

The answer is quite simple and has mostly to do with visable borders.

"I am at the airport in the lounge."

Airports are normally large and the borders are very hard to define visually. This is when we use "at".

The lounge at the airport has visible borders, such as walls, so we use "in".

"I am at home in the living room."

Once again, the visible borders of "home" are not so easy to define, as they are with a house. The borders of the livingroom are very easy to visibly define, so we'll use "in".

Other examples include:

"I am in China." - visually defined borders, especially on maps.

"I am in Beijing." - Once again, visible borders.

"I am at the World Trade Center." - The borders are very difficult to define visually.

So, this is what I am talking about. We can add a valuable resource to our community.

Who knows, maybe it will become a sticky. Let's try it anyway.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-14-2005, 11:23 PM
Hi All,

I've been thinking of this for quite sometime and think it's about time I start it.

Although this forum is English our community is international and therefore multilingual. Many of the members are not native speakers of English and their levels vary widely. Many "English Second Language" (ESL) speakers want to improve their English and I thought it would be great if our community could offer support, advice, and answers to the many questions asked.

I propose we use this thread to offer advice and answers, not debate or argue about English. The ESL members could post their questions and get answers, therefore improving their English skills.

An example: When do we us "in" and "at"?

This is a common question among ESL students. The funny thing is that the majority of native English speakers do not know the answer, although they instinctively know the correct usage.

When do we use "in" and "at"?(Regarding location)

The answer is quite simple and has mostly to do with visable borders.

"I am at the airport in the lounge."

Airports are normally large and the borders are very hard to define visually. This is when we use "at".

The lounge at the airport has visible borders, such as walls, so we use "in".

"I am at home in the living room."

Once again, the visible borders of "home" are not so easy to define, as they are with a house. The borders of the livingroom are very easy to visibly define, so we'll use "in".

Other examples include:

"I am in China." - visually defined borders, especially on maps.

"I am in Beijing." - Once again, visible borders.

"I am at the World Trade Center." - The borders are very difficult to define visually.

So, this is what I am talking about. We can add a valuable resource to our community.

Who knows, maybe it will become a sticky. Let's try it anyway.

Fritz

polak5
11-14-2005, 11:35 PM
great idea for the community. Hope this can be of use to some peeps also. A "translator"
http://www.babelfish.altavista.com/

msalama
11-15-2005, 12:02 AM
Hey, this is a great idea Fritz!

Professor_06
11-15-2005, 01:28 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif you could be "at" a loss and "in" a state of confusion also. Rules "in" English are sometimes "at" odds.

First you must leave the cave.

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 01:42 AM
Yes, English rules are consistantly inconsistant. Good point. I edited and added "regarding location".

Fritz

cueceleches
11-15-2005, 02:13 AM
Wow, thanks! This kind of help is always appreciated, and i must admit that reading and posting in these forums has taught me quite a bunch of new things...

Dunkelgrun
11-15-2005, 02:58 AM
I am always inspired by the grasp of English shown by 'non-native speakers', which is usually of a very high standard. It often puts the 'natives' to shame.
Good idea for a thread Fritz; I'll help out if I can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Cheers!

nakamura_kenji
11-15-2005, 03:18 AM
what difference no and know?

Sturm_Williger
11-15-2005, 03:27 AM
Does it have to be English ?

I've noticed more than a few people posting and ending with something like "wallah !"

It's French and although you've nailed the pronunciation, it's "Voila !", people. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sturm_Williger
11-15-2005, 03:34 AM
I'm not an expert, nakamura_kenji, but "No" is the negative.

"Know" is to be aware of something, to possess information.

examples : I know everything about the Ki-61.
I know nothing about the War in the Pacific.

"Is the patch ready, Oleg ?"
"NO !"

There are no new maps for PF.

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
what difference no and know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The pronunciation is the same.

No = opposite of yes

No= "not at all" ; used when comparing. He's no better."" No one likes that."

Know = to understand as fact or truth. "I know her." "Did you know it was lost?"

Know = a fixed knowledge "I know that poem by heart."

Know = to understand from experience or practice. "I know how to cook".

These are the most common uses.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 03:50 AM
Ha ha ha, that was a good answer. So maybe "no" could mean "2 weeks" in certain situations. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Does it have to be English ?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we should limit it to English so we don't clutter the info. But I like your idea. We could start a second thread.

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-15-2005, 04:00 AM
thank you

english much complicate because seem be so many rule and exception to many them.

sentence construct(order word go in) different also from nihongo

nihongo SOV order english SVO order think

Monson74
11-15-2005, 04:09 AM
I have used english since I got my C64 back in '84 but I still often mess up the agreement/concord when writing & speaking English. I think this is very common for non-native English speakers.

Example:

The cars drive<span class="ev_code_RED">s</span> by my window.

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 05:18 AM
The thing is my english, as a native speaker, is often grammatically imperfect compared to a well educated non-native speaker.

Just in the UK and Ireland there are so many seriously diverse dialects.

Glasgow and Belfast possessing particulary fruity accents and dialects.

My favourite Belfast dialect oddity is the tendancy to make a second confirmation of an action unnecessarily.

'I went down to the bookies, so I did'
'He was nasty to me, so he was.'
'That's my car, so it is.'

all very strange http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

nakamura_kenji
11-15-2005, 05:24 AM
friend i have scottish he nice but strong acent.

funny nice thing instead yes he say "I" which sound bit "hai" ^_^

wintergoose
11-15-2005, 05:29 AM
There is also a werry interesting IL2 board in Russian.
I dont understand a word of it.
Could we have a simple word list with the main word in english - russian ?

IL2
PF
FB
AEP
Campain
mission
FMB


etc.

simpel code word so it is easier to look

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 05:41 AM
Yep Kenji, 'Aye' is a fairly widespread way of saying yes in Scotland and Ireland.

Pronounced same as 'I', but with regional variations.

By the way- you have any connection with Nakamura thats signed for Glasgow Celtic?

Hes a brilliant player

joeap
11-15-2005, 05:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
friend i have scottish he nice but strong acent.

funny nice thing instead yes he say "I" which sound bit "hai" ^_^ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually he is saying "aye" which means "yes" but sounds like "I", as in "aye aye sir" if you ever see films about the US or Royal Navy (I think the Brits use it too).

I suppose nihongo (Japanese I guess) has a different grammar, but more or less difficult I don't know. My sister took some Japanese. The hardest language I know ( I speak French and some Greek too) is Russian, took a year of that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I did teach English for a few years so will contribute to this thread. I'll start with this question, how many of you know what a phrasal verb is? Bet not many native speakers know either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nakamura_kenji
11-15-2005, 05:53 AM
i not relation him but he very much good player.

my connect scotland that my mother was scot ^_^

Feathered_IV
11-15-2005, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it have to be English ?

I've noticed more than a few people posting and ending with something like "wallah !"

It's French and although you've nailed the pronunciation, it's "Voila !", people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sturm_Williger, "Wallah" is English slang for bloke or chap. As in: "So there I am minding my own business, when some wallah comes up to me and says..."
It is in no way related to the French Voila http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 05:58 AM
Yes he's an excellent signing for Celtic, real flair and original tactical passing...

Im sure your mother is much happier in Japan than Scotland.

Scotland is depressing. Thats why I drink so much. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(only joking, I like Scotland. Good sense of humour)

Monson74
11-15-2005, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
The thing is my english, as a native speaker, is often grammatically imperfect compared to a well educated non-native speaker.

Just in the UK and Ireland there are so many seriously diverse dialects.

Glasgow and Belfast possessing particulary fruity accents and dialects.

My favourite Belfast dialect oddity is the tendancy to make a second confirmation of an action unnecessarily.

'I went down to the bookies, so I did'
'He was nasty to me, so he was.'
'That's my car, so it is.'

all very strange http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've also often heard a person from Scotland using 1st plural about himself - for example: "Give it to us & I'll see what I can do"

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
friend i have scottish he nice but strong acent.

funny nice thing instead yes he say "I" which sound bit "hai" ^_^ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually he is saying "aye" which means "yes" but sounds like "I", as in "aye aye sir" if you ever see films about the US or Royal Navy (I think the Brits use it too).

I suppose nihongo (Japanese I guess) has a different grammar, but more or less difficult I don't know. My sister took some Japanese. The hardest language I know ( I speak French and some Greek too) is Russian, took a year of that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I did teach English for a few years so will contribute to this thread. I'll start with this question, how many of you know what a phrasal verb is? Bet not many native speakers know either. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They use them all the time, but have no idea what they're using. I won't say the answer since I think it wouldn't be fair since I too am an English teacher.

Thanks for offering to pitch in. Go for it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 06:05 AM
Absolutely, actually coming to Glasgow 7 years ago was like coming to a different language.

'Gonnae gis a swatch at they papers, by the way?'

Translated, 'Can I have a look at those papers, please?'

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 06:07 AM
Is a phrasal verb were a common phrase's action becomes used as a colloquial verb in common speech?

I have no idea what im talking about, just trying to dissect the meaning..

Dunkelgrun
11-15-2005, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I've also often heard a person from Scotland using 1st plural about himself - for example: "Give it to us & I'll see what I can do" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just Scotland. Although grammatically incorrect it is common across the UK. I say it myself all of the time, but it shouldn't be written.
Gollum was obviously British - 'It hurts us, precious, it hurts us!' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers!

Sturm_Williger
11-15-2005, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...I've noticed more than a few people posting and ending with something like "wallah !"

It's French and although you've nailed the pronunciation, it's "Voila !", people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sturm_Williger, "Wallah" is English slang for bloke or chap. As in: "So there I am minding my own business, when some wallah comes up to me and says..."
It is in no way related to the French Voila http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I was referring to posts that go along the lines of "and then you fix the conf.ini and wallah !" - I'm pretty sure these are aiming for "voila". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 07:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I've also often heard a person from Scotland using 1st plural about himself - for example: "Give it to us & I'll see what I can do" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just Scotland. Although grammatically incorrect it is common across the UK. I say it myself all of the time, but it shouldn't be written.
Gollum was obviously British - 'It hurts us, precious, it hurts us!' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Nova Scotia(New Scotland) it is common to say "Give it to us and we'll see what we can do."

East coast Canadian English is grammatically close to the UK.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 07:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
Is a phrasal verb were a common phrase's action becomes used as a colloquial verb in common speech?

I have no idea what im talking about, just trying to dissect the meaning.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think of a phrasal verb in this way. A word is made of letters. On their own, those letters mean nothing.

A phrasal verb is like a word, only the words in the phrase are like letters. When you try to remove a word from the phrase, you lose the meaning.

Examples of phrasal verbs;

"To pitch in" = means to help others

"Go for it" = an invitation to start or do something

"try it on" = it means to dress yourself to see if the size of the clothing matches

If you remove any one of the words from a phasal verb, you either lose all meaning or in a few cases you actually change the meaning.

Fritz

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 07:36 AM
Cool!

see thats what im talking about, non-native speakers often have a greater grasp of English language than native speakers. (acutally Fritz im assuming english isnt your first language, not becuase of the way you write, your written english is excellent)

i went to a fairly good school and uni and ive never heard of a phrasal verb.

i can see why it might need to be defined for foreign speakers tho...

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 07:38 AM
Sorry Dazza, born in Toronto and raised in Nova Scotia.

English is a hobby, consider me a geek. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

dazza9806482
11-15-2005, 07:46 AM
Or alternatively, you just paid attention at school!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Woof603
11-15-2005, 07:49 AM
So how about a little dissertation on the correct usage of "which" and "that".

VonKlugermon
11-15-2005, 07:50 AM
Being from "The South", let me confuse everything and everyone with some our english:

BARD - verb. Past tense of the infinitive "to borrow."

Usage: "My brother bard my pickup truck."



JAWJUH - noun. A highly flammable state just north of Florida.

Usage: "My brother from Jawjah bard my pickup truck."



MUNTS - noun. A calendar division.

Usage: "My brother from Jawjuh bard my pickup truck, and I aint herd from him in munts."



IGNERT - adjective. Not smart. See "Auburn Alumni." Usage: "Them N-C-TWO-A boys sure are ignert!"



RANCH - noun. A tool.

Usage: "I think I left my ranch in the back of that pickup truck my brother from Jawjuh bard a few munts ago."



ALL - noun. A petroleum-based lubricant.

Usage: "I sure hope my brother from Jawjuh puts all in my pickup truck."



FAR - noun. A conflagration.

Usage: "If my brother from Jawjuh doesn't change the all in my pickup truck, that things gonna catch far."



BAHS - noun. A supervisor.

Usage: "If you don't stop reading these Southern words and git back to work, your bahs is gonna far you!"



TAR - noun. A rubber wheel.

Usage: "Gee, I hope that brother of mine from Jawjuh doesn't git a flat tar in my pickup truck."



TIRE - noun. A tall monument.

Usage: "Lord willing and the creeks don't rise, I sure do hope to see that Eiffel Tire in Paris sometime."



HOT - noun. A blood-pumping organ.



HOD - adverb. Not easy.

Usage: "A broken hot is hod to fix."



****** - Verb. To stop working.

Usage: "My granpaw ****** at age 65."



TARRED - adverb. Exhausted.

Usage: "I just flew in from Hot-lanta, and boy my arms are tarred."



RATS - noun. Entitled power or privilege.

Usage: "We Southerners are willing to fight for out rats."



LOT - adjective. Luminescent.

Usage: "I dream of Jeanie in the lot-brown hair."



FARN - adjective. Not local.

Usage: "I cudnt unnerstand a wurd he sed ... must be from some farn country."



DID - adjective. Not alive.

Usage: "He's did, Jim."



EAR - noun. A colorless, odorless gas (unless you are in LA).

Usage: "He can't breathe ... give 'em some ear!"



BOB WAR - noun. A sharp, twisted cable.

Usage: "Boy, stay away from that bob war fence."



JU-HERE - a question.

Usage: "Juhere that former Dallas Cowboys' coach Jimmy Johnson recently toured the University of Alabama?"



HAZE - a contraction.

Usage: "Is Bubba smart?" "Nah ... haze ignert."



SEED - verb, past tense.



VIEW - contraction: verb and pronoun.

Usage: "I ain't never seed New York City ... view?"



HEAVY DEW - phrase. A request for action.

Usage: "Kin I heavy dew me a favor?"



GUMMIT - Noun. An often-closed bureaucratic institution.

Usage: "Great ... ANOTHER gummit shutdown!"

Willy

panther3485
11-15-2005, 08:08 AM
Quote:

Examples of phrasal verbs;
"To pitch in" = means to help others
"Go for it" = an invitation to start or do something
"try it on" = it means to dress yourself to see if the size of the clothing matches

If you remove any one of the words from a phasal verb, you either lose all meaning or in a few cases you actually change the meaning.

Fritz

Good explanation, but just a couple of minor enhancements, if I may:

You can remove the 'To' from 'To pitch in', making it, simply, 'pitch in'. Examples-

"Let's all pitch in and finish this job!"

or

"We'll get this done in half the time if those other guys pitch in !"


And:

Alternate meaning for 'try it on':
= To test authority and/or see if you can get away with something.
Example -

"The teacher set firm rules in the class but not all the children would obey them. There was always at least one kid who would try it on !"

(Just wanting to help here, but if you reckon I'm being a nuisance please say so.)

The thread is a good idea but we need to be very careful about our accuracy. On the other hand, we shouldn't be so scared of making a mistake that we become unwilling to help others who might benefit from our skills!

Good on yer, Fritz!


Best regards,
panther3485

TAGERT.
11-15-2005, 08:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
what difference no and know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No is what my date said to me on prom night, but I didnt Know she ment it, I thought she ment Yes.

FlatSpinMan
11-15-2005, 08:41 AM
I really like that Southern English post. Will confuse the **** out of some innocent non-native English speaker but it was meant in good humour. Thanks for posting it.

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
Or alternatively, you just paid attention at school!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, sorry again. I dropped out when I was 14. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-15-2005, 09:44 AM
No prob Panther. The extra points are important and all contributions are welcome. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VonKlugermon, I recently had to translate for a guy from the south. He was in a local hotel in Being and no one could make out what he was saying.

Dat dare werd buk'a'yers wudda com'n handi,yip. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

MLudner
11-15-2005, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
friend i have scottish he nice but strong acent.

funny nice thing instead yes he say "I" which sound bit "hai" ^_^ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aye, lad, bu' the Scots ha' their oon way o' speakin' English, tha's fer syer.

I can sound like a Scot at will. It sounds like "I", but it's spelled "aye". "I" is a pronoun (Like you, he, she, it, we, you, they), but Aye is the same as Yes.

Hey, Kenji, I think this could help you a little:
Here is your post in correct English:

I have a Scottish friend; he is nice, but has a strong accent.
A nice and funny thing is that instead of saying "yes" he says "I", which sounds a bit like "hai".

You have to remember that for the Scots English is pretty much a second language that has become a first language. In the old days they spoke Scots Gaelic.

Saunders1953
11-15-2005, 10:35 AM
Woof603:

I don't know the full rule, but "which" is used to start a dependent clause after a comma, and "that" is used when there is no dependent clause (IIRC). So....

"She is the girl that told Tagert to get lost when he started to play "Octopus" after the Prom." (Okay, I should have used "who" instead of "that," but that's a different rule!)

"She told Tagert to buzz off after the Prom, which was very smart of her!)

Apologies to Mr. Tagert for using him in this demonstration without his prior consent....

neural_dream
11-15-2005, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saunders1953:
I don't know the full rule, but "which" is used to start a dependent clause after a comma, and "that" is used when there is no dependent clause (IIRC). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
More or less.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"She is the girl that told Tagert to get lost when he started to play "Octopus" after the Prom." (Okay, I should have used "who" instead of "that," but that's a different rule!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Using "who" isn't necessary.

Grammar Goering

horseback
11-15-2005, 10:56 AM
As a US military brat (the child of a man who was career military), I moved quite often, and have learned that to master a dialect/language, you have to learn its rhythm. Once I learn to follow the 'beat', I find it a lot easier to discern the sound combinations.

Many languages are dependent upon changing the nouns' endings to denote whether they are subject or object, or modify them in some way, and change the verbs to tell you if they are past, present, or future tense, who and how many involved in the action, and so on. Word order is relatively unimportant, or a matter of habit. Some languages are tonal, and I get the impression that in these cases, some consonants and vowel sounds are optional as long as you get the correct tone.

English is (usually) word order dependent: Subject, Verb, Object. The words themselves don't change (or at least we think of the different forms of a word as distinct). As long as you get that and the basic pronunciation (and pronunciation can vary widely from place to place), you can make yourself understood, especially if you can reproduce the local dialect's rhythm.

Every language that I have come across has sounds that it does not use (there is no 'w' or 'th' sound in Russian) or does not differentiate between (for instance, my Chinese ex-wife had a terrible time telling the difference between stick and steak, scissor and Ceasar). We all, however, have the conviction that our language is the easy and natural one, and the sounds we make to converse are perfectly normal.

This subject always reminds me of a church service I attended where a group of singers from Uganda were trying to teach us a hymn in their native language. After several stumbles by the congregation over a few unfamiliar sound combinations, the lead singer came to the mike and said (in a beautiful accent-these guys always sounded like they were smiling), "Come on people! This is not hard -- we had to learn how to say things like enthusiastic!"

cheers

horseback

BaldieJr
11-15-2005, 11:00 AM
if i cant make you understand what im sayin i hit you with a stick

(this potention english movie plot can be yours for the low low price of 3.5 million dollars)

Capt.England
11-15-2005, 11:02 AM
You should try living in Leicester! Here is a link to a page full of local slang and how it should be written down.

Leicester Slang (http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/slang/)

ayergunnagerrit?

Capt.England
11-15-2005, 11:04 AM
And here's some more Lest-ah slang:
Leicester slang part 2 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/leicester/content/articles/2005/01/17/dictionary_leicester_feature.shtml)

Airmail109
11-15-2005, 11:31 AM
heheh S Capt.England....Im from nearby

Slickun
11-15-2005, 11:47 AM
I would also like to say that I am impressed by how well non-native english speakers do on these forums. English is very tough because we have no rules that work well.

You should hear my attempts at Spanish.

neural_dream
11-15-2005, 11:54 AM
typical mistake that native speakers do:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
English rules are consistantly inconsistant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My favourite Belfast dialect oddity is the tendancy to ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surprisingly, consistent spelling mistakes annoy non-native speakers much more than native ones. (Well not really surprisingly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif).

Typical mistake for non-native speakers is what you must have noticed in my first sentence and on purpose avoided in the one you're currently reading http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. Oh, the previous sentence is also incorrect.


tip: the fastest way to check the spelling of a word is to google it.

Saunders1953
11-15-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Grammar Goering </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nuance Nazi

stathem
11-15-2005, 01:11 PM
Ee, int t'internet gradley. Tha can lernt owt on theer tha' knows.

Capt_Pepper
11-15-2005, 01:32 PM
Howdy All,

This thread is an excellent idea.

I too am often amazed that non-native English speakers here (and elsewhere) can determine what is being said or written. With so many dialects having their own special flavor of colloquial expressions and slang, it's a challenge for even native English speakers to always know the true meaning of what's been posted. Apart from this is the separate issue of all the spelling errors and misusage of words.

I hope we can all continue to answer questions as they arise from those that ask, but I have another suggestion.

In my opinion, the best help we can provide overall would be to take a little extra time to check what we write before posting it. If we make that effort, it's far easier for others to understand and if all else fails, most translators will be able to provide an accurate translation of what is being said.

Just a thought.....

Bongokid
11-15-2005, 03:08 PM
I have a question :

What is the difference between the words :

- Hence
- Thus
- Therefore
- in effects
- indeed

I tend to think thus and therefore have a close meaning (idea of consequence), and the three others also have a close meaning (idea of illustration of what was said in the prior sentences)

Am I right ?

Cheers,

Bongokid

polak5
11-15-2005, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Does it have to be English ?

I've noticed more than a few people posting and ending with something like "wallah !"

It's French and although you've nailed the pronunciation, it's "Voila !", people. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that would be me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Taylortony
11-15-2005, 04:17 PM
You would be suprised at how much of the English language has derived from the Military

Take

It's First Rate Meaning excellent
It's Second Rate Meaning it is not so good
It's Third Rate Meaning it is poor

This comes from the Nautical terms that referred to a Ship of the lines Gunnage in Nelsons Era

The Flagship Victory was a First Rate ship carrying the largest compliment of cannonage and was hence the best..

The old wooden ships of the navy were classified into "rates" as follows:-
First rate - 100 or more guns ) line of
Second rate - 90 to 100 guns ) battleships
Third rate - 80-84 guns
Fourth rate - 60-74 guns
Fifth rate - 32-40 guns
Sixth rate - less than 32 guns

Again the saying "To be in the Red" IE in Debt refers to a Naval term

Naval slang expression meaning to be in debt to the Crown; debtor balances are recorded in the naval pay ledger in red ink.


Similarly "To Go off half cocked" IE go mad, refers to a gun musket that was cocked at 1/2 ****, that fired when it shouldn't of.........

I could tell you hundreds of these modern English sayings that have a meaning in history

MLudner
11-15-2005, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongokid:
I have a question :

What is the difference between the words :

- Hence
- Thus
- Therefore
- in effects
- indeed

I tend to think thus and therefore have a close meaning (idea of consequence), and the three others also have a close meaning (idea of illustration of what was said in the prior sentences)

Am I right ?

Cheers,

Bongokid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Hence", "Thus" and "Therefore" are mostly synonymous; which is to say they mean the same thing. However, "Hence" also has time-related meaning indicating a future occurance - to include use in some past tense events - indicating from now or then or from this or that time.

"In effect" (there is no s) is relative to something. It is similar to Thus, Hence and / or therefore but cannot be used interchangeably because it has a different sense, commonly used in passive tenses.
Exempli gratia:
"The Supreme Court, in rendering this decision, in effect rewrote the lower court's decision."
As opposed to an active sense:
"The Supreme Court rendered its decision, thus rewriting the lower court's decision."
"In effect" indicates a less than absolute result than "thus", therefore" or "hence". The first sentence would indicate that the practical result of the Court's decision was to rewrite the lower court's law. The second sentence has a more active sense, indicating that the lower court's decision was rewritten.

"Indeed" is an affirmation. It means "in fact", "In truth", "Certainly", "without a doubt". It can be used interchangeably with "Yes", and is synonymous.

Indeed could be said to be semi-synonymous to thus in certain circumstances, as thus can also be used as an affirmation.

All of them are adverbs, or adverbial phrases (In effect).

fordfan25
11-15-2005, 05:32 PM
i is the shiznick. ya'll wannbe comen to my hizzle for some sizzle, meet my nizzle? i be speken laungwizzle finizzle ya'll bazillzelz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

blakduk
11-15-2005, 08:32 PM
I always feel sorry for people trying to learn English- none of our rules are fixed.
I work with lot of people who learned English as a 2nd language and a lot of them never got told the secret of the English language. Its a mongrel collection of every invader of the British isles as well as the lands the British incorporated in their empire.
Its made up of old celtic, a lot of French, latin, German, and a lot of scandanavian.
A great example of this is the inconsistency in the naming of animals and their products.
After the Norman invasion of 1066 the French nobles who took over called the livestock by their French names, while the peasants who spoke a form of Saxon referred to the animals by their names. Thus, the bloke who ate it called it a French name while the bloke who looked after it called it the Saxon name.
For example- When you kill the 'sheep' (Saxon) it becomes 'mutton' (from the French).
-When you slaughter the 'deer' (Saxon) it becomes 'venison' (French)
- when you kill the 'cow' (Saxon) it becomes 'beef' (from the French).

Our language is filled with this legacy from each invader. English is also very good and inventing new words and incorporating words from other languages- many attempts have been made to clarify and restrict English to make it more sensible. All these have ended in failure. English remains anarchic.
I noted earlier in this thread that 'wallah' is coming into common usage in certain areas of Britain- its actually a Hindi word that translates as 'man' or 'labourer'.

Takata_
11-15-2005, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
I always feel sorry for people trying to learn English- none of our rules are fixed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
- don't feel sorry, it's about the same (or worse) for every "normalized" langage in the world. Each current langage is nothing less than a patchwork of several hundred centuries in human speaking history.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its a mongrel collection of every invader of the British isles as well as the lands the British incorporated in their empire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
- same, every langage incorporate a lot of "alien" words for a wide range of reason. If the French is so present in actual English, it's mainly because English has been written (officially) only several centuries after the Norman invasion. Before this stage, Latin and Norman-French were the only "normalized" (official) langage in use for scripted records. So, when finaly the English langage has been "normalized", the grammarians used for it a lot of the old official stuff in place of the "vulgar saxon" words, as only the high society ever used to speak French in England.

But guess what?... it was exactly the same in France. Barely at the same period, this so-called French langage was not used by a huge majority of the people around the French Kingdom, beside of course, the high society. Half of France was using Southern dialects that could not be understood by the other half, using Northern dialects, nor any other minorities (Celtics, Basques, etc.). And none of them used French langage before being sent at school during the last century.

Takata.

Old_Canuck
11-16-2005, 12:39 AM
VonKlugermon, that was brilliant! Extra points if you made it up yourself.

sy-subrc
11-16-2005, 02:00 AM
I really like this thread. I'm still taking english lessons at work, because we have a lot of communication with our offshore business partners in India (Everything's fine, as long as we're sending emails. Due their accent, verbal communication is really hard for me...)

So this thread is a good addition.

One question comes into my mind:

From time to time I've noticed the phrase:
"You _is_ wrong!" in different forums. Is this a kind of a slang or a "verbal phrase" (I learned from this thread, you know...)? Is it written that way to emphasise the meaning, or to kid the addressee, or am I wrong and this is a correct form?

Bye

Olaf

Monson74
11-16-2005, 02:13 AM
When to use & not to use comma in an English sentence - that puzzles me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

stathem
11-16-2005, 02:24 AM
Use it when, if you were having to say the sentence out loud, you would normally pause for breath; or effect.

Dunkelgrun
11-16-2005, 02:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
I really like this thread. I'm still taking english lessons at work, because we have a lot of communication with our offshore business partners in India (Everything's fine, as long as we're sending emails. Due their accent, verbal communication is really hard for me...)

So this thread is a good addition.

One question comes into my mind:

From time to time I've noticed the phrase:
"You _is_ wrong!" in different forums. Is this a kind of a slang or a "verbal phrase" (I learned from this thread, you know...)? Is it written that way to emphasise the meaning, or to kid the addressee, or am I wrong and this is a correct form?

Bye

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'You is wrong, be sure.' is quoting Oleg; he has often made grammatical errors in his posts. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but, in my opinion, only Oleg should be allowed to write this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers!

Monson74
11-16-2005, 03:26 AM
VonKlugermon, ahm gone da beard cuz ahm tard nah http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 05:36 AM
Before the Norman invasion, the English language was very different from today's. In fact, if a modern English speaker was somehow able to go back in time to England before the invasions, verbal communication would be somewhat impossible. The occupation lasted for about 200 years and in that short time English had gone through many changes.

The government did their business in French. The schools educated in Latin. The peasants spoke English. Of course, over time, these languages got mixed to form the language we speak today.

This is what William of Nassyngton (chronicler) wrote in 1325:

Latin can no one speak, I trow,(believe)
But those who it from school do know;
And some know French, but no Latin
Who're used to Court and dwell therein,
And some use Latin, though in part,
Who if known have not the art,
And some can understand English
That neither Latin knew, nor French
But simple or learned, old or young
All understand the English tongue.

The development of English is quite interesting me thinks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-16-2005, 05:42 AM
what post make almost no sense to me ^_^ but good example much it change.

shakespear much evil version of english also

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 05:48 AM
By the way, for those learning English and looking for the correct English, here's some info.

Firstly, it is important to realize there is more than one correct way to speak English. The grammar rules and pronunciation differ from one English speaking nation to the next.

A few good examples would be England, Canada, and the US.

England and the US have slightly different grammar rules and pronunciation. Canada uses England's grammar rules but their pronuciation is closer to the Americans. Even punctuations rules differ.

There is no "one correct English".

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 05:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
shakespear much evil version of english also </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kenji, you are too cool. I've always enjoyed reading your posts. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

major_setback
11-16-2005, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:

....'You is wrong, be sure.' is quoting Oleg; he has often made grammatical errors in his posts. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but, in my opinion, only Oleg should be allowed to write this....

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


'Be sure' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

As Dunkelgrun said...this phrase is never used in English, it is used for effect (in jest - for fun) by some people on the forums, otherwise it shouldn't be used; anyone using it would be judged as having a poor command of the English language.

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 05:56 AM
"two weeks" has also developed a deep meaning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

MEGILE
11-16-2005, 05:57 AM
the doggy bizzle says fo shizzle ma nizzle.

MEGILE
11-16-2005, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Hi All,

I've bizzy think'n of this fo` quite sometime n think it's `bout time I stiznart it.

Although this forum is English our community is internizzles n therefore multilizzle. Many of tha memba is not native speaka of English n they levels vary widely from tha streets of tha L-B-C. Many "English Second Language" (ESL) playa want ta improve they English n I thought it would be bootylicious if our community could shot calla support, advice, n answa ta tha many questions asked.

I propose we use this thread ta offa advice n brotha not debate or argue `bout English. The ESL memba could post they questions n git wanna be gangsta therefore improv'n they English skills.

An example: When do we us "izzle n "izzle?

This is a common question among ESL students . Ill slap tha taste out yo mouf. The F-U-Double-Nizzy thing is thizzat tha majority of native English speaka do not know tha answa, although they instinctively know tha correct usage.

When do we use "-to-tha-izzin" n "at"?(Regard'n location)

The answa is quite simple n has mostly ta do wit visable borda
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree 100%

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Hi All,

I've bizzy think'n of this fo` quite sometime n think it's `bout time I stiznart it.

Although this forum is English our community is internizzles n therefore multilizzle. Many of tha memba is not native speaka of English n they levels vary widely from tha streets of tha L-B-C. Many "English Second Language" (ESL) playa want ta improve they English n I thought it would be bootylicious if our community could shot calla support, advice, n answa ta tha many questions asked.

I propose we use this thread ta offa advice n brotha not debate or argue `bout English. The ESL memba could post they questions n git wanna be gangsta therefore improv'n they English skills.

An example: When do we us "izzle n "izzle?

This is a common question among ESL students . Ill slap tha taste out yo mouf. The F-U-Double-Nizzy thing is thizzat tha majority of native English speaka do not know tha answa, although they instinctively know tha correct usage.

When do we use "-to-tha-izzin" n "at"?(Regard'n location)

The answa is quite simple n has mostly ta do wit visable borda
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif ******!

Fritz

MLudner
11-16-2005, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
I really like this thread. I'm still taking english lessons at work, because we have a lot of communication with our offshore business partners in India (Everything's fine, as long as we're sending emails. Due their accent, verbal communication is really hard for me...)

So this thread is a good addition.

One question comes into my mind:

From time to time I've noticed the phrase:
"You _is_ wrong!" in different forums. Is this a kind of a slang or a "verbal phrase" (I learned from this thread, you know...)? Is it written that way to emphasise the meaning, or to kid the addressee, or am I wrong and this is a correct form?

Bye

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is bad English. Correct it would "you ARE wrong!" It is used for humorous purposes. Is is the 3rd person, singular conjugation of "To be" (Which, interestingly, is irregular in every language), Are is the 2nd person singular and plural / 1st & 3rd person plural. Thus:
To Be:
I am.
You are.
He / She / It is.
We are.
You are.
They are.
In Latin it goes:
ESSE (To be):
SVM (I am)
ES (Thou art, now archaic in English)
EST (He/She/It is)
SVMVS (We are)
ESTIS (You are)
SVNT (They are)

MLudner
11-16-2005, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
what post make almost no sense to me ^_^ but good example much it change.

shakespear much evil version of english also </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post makes almost no sense to me ^_^, but it is a good example how much it has changed.

Shakespeare is also a very evil version of English.

BTW: Kenji, I am not making fun; just trying to help you. I am hoping that by putting your posts - here only - in correct English I can help you develop a better understanding. I would hope that if I had a serious interest in learning Japanese you would do the same for me.

Shakespeare wrote about 500 years ago, English has changed much since his day. I had to learn all kinds of new words to understand him properly. Words like Calumny, bourne, pith and many others that I don't want to take the time to conjure-up right now.

What, exactly, does Wokarimas mean? I know it is a term of respect (Lord?).
Hari Kari and Seppuku I have both seen as ritual suicide. What is the difference?
How does one say "Hello" in Japanese?
Sayonara.

fordfan25
11-16-2005, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
I always feel sorry for people trying to learn English- none of our rules are fixed.
I work with lot of people who learned English as a 2nd language and a lot of them never got told the secret of the English language. Its a mongrel collection of every invader of the British isles as well as the lands the British incorporated in their empire.
Its made up of old celtic, a lot of French, latin, German, and a lot of scandanavian.
A great example of this is the inconsistency in the naming of animals and their products.
After the Norman invasion of 1066 the French nobles who took over called the livestock by their French names, while the peasants who spoke a form of Saxon referred to the animals by their names. Thus, the bloke who ate it called it a French name while the bloke who looked after it called it the Saxon name.
For example- When you kill the 'sheep' (Saxon) it becomes 'mutton' (from the French).
-When you slaughter the 'deer' (Saxon) it becomes 'venison' (French)
- when you kill the 'cow' (Saxon) it becomes 'beef' (from the French).

Our language is filled with this legacy from each invader. English is also very good and inventing new words and incorporating words from other languages- many attempts have been made to clarify and restrict English to make it more sensible. All these have ended in failure. English remains anarchic.
I noted earlier in this thread that 'wallah' is coming into common usage in certain areas of Britain- its actually a Hindi word that translates as 'man' or 'labourer'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



yea and wear the he!! did "HAMburger" come from? english sux. the spelling is all fubar. little is spelled the way it sounds.

fordfan25
11-16-2005, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
the doggy bizzle says fo shizzle ma nizzle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

forsizzle. its al fruggle my ......um never mind LMAO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MLudner
11-16-2005, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by blakduk:
I always feel sorry for people trying to learn English- none of our rules are fixed.
I work with lot of people who learned English as a 2nd language and a lot of them never got told the secret of the English language. Its a mongrel collection of every invader of the British isles as well as the lands the British incorporated in their empire.
Its made up of old celtic, a lot of French, latin, German, and a lot of scandanavian.
A great example of this is the inconsistency in the naming of animals and their products.
After the Norman invasion of 1066 the French nobles who took over called the livestock by their French names, while the peasants who spoke a form of Saxon referred to the animals by their names. Thus, the bloke who ate it called it a French name while the bloke who looked after it called it the Saxon name.
For example- When you kill the 'sheep' (Saxon) it becomes 'mutton' (from the French).
-When you slaughter the 'deer' (Saxon) it becomes 'venison' (French)
- when you kill the 'cow' (Saxon) it becomes 'beef' (from the French).

Our language is filled with this legacy from each invader. English is also very good and inventing new words and incorporating words from other languages- many attempts have been made to clarify and restrict English to make it more sensible. All these have ended in failure. English remains anarchic.
I noted earlier in this thread that 'wallah' is coming into common usage in certain areas of Britain- its actually a Hindi word that translates as 'man' or 'labourer'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



yea and wear the he!! did "HAMburger" come from? english sux. the spelling is all fubar. little is spelled the way it sounds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Hamburg, Deutschland, where it supposedly originated. Same with Frankfurter.

Actually, English spelling is meant to key to pronounciation. The rules are complicated, though, so I sympathize.

Example: the word insane. It derives from the Latin INSANVS (same meaning) which is prounced in-sah-noos (oo like the oo in took, book, look) in Latin. In English we prounce it in-sayn. The long "a" is indicated by the "e" at the end of the English version: insane. Drop the "e", insan, and it becomes pronounced in-san (a like in sand/band/man).

neural_dream
11-16-2005, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
what post make almost no sense to me ^_^ but good example much it change.

shakespear much evil version of english also </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That post makes almost no sense to me ^_^, but it is a good example how much it has changed.
...I am hoping that by putting your posts - here only - in correct English I can help you develop a better understanding... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NK shouldn't try to conform with "correct" English. In a magnificent way he's consistently clear and perfectly understandable. Expecting from NK to change his syntax is like expecting Eco's Salvatore (the hunchback monk) to stop mixing several languages in his own perfectly understandable personal dialect.

MLudner
11-16-2005, 11:05 AM
Well, not entirely my purpose, that is why I said "a better understanding". Besides, proper use makes understanding one another easier as it makes clearer what we mean. I always endeavor to get it right when dealing with other languages. I've asked some Germans for some help with my German, but so far they have been most unhelpful and aloof.

Capt.England
11-16-2005, 11:20 AM
Most non-English speakers say that I speak English the way someone from Germany does. Add that to my Germanic/Nordic looks and it's lucky that I don't get my head kicked in down the football matches! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just the other day, A Israeli customer who needed help asked me if I was German as I spoke very clear English, just like most German English speakers do. He said that he could understand me very well and congratulated me on my excellent English skills.

It was very hard for me not to laugh at him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

fly_zo
11-16-2005, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hi All,

I've been thinking of this for quite sometime and think it's about time I start it.

Although this forum is English our community is international and therefore multilingual. Many of the members are not native speakers of English and their levels vary widely. Many "English Second Language" (ESL) speakers want to improve their English and I thought it would be great if our community could offer support, advice, and answers to the many questions asked.

I propose we use this thread to offer advice and answers, not debate or argue about English. The ESL members could post their questions and get answers, therefore improving their English skills.

An example: When do we us "in" and "at"?

This is a common question among ESL students. The funny thing is that the majority of native English speakers do not know the answer, although they instinctively know the correct usage.

When do we use "in" and "at"?(Regarding location)

The answer is quite simple and has mostly to do with visable borders.

"I am at the airport in the lounge."

Airports are normally large and the borders are very hard to define visually. This is when we use "at".

The lounge at the airport has visible borders, such as walls, so we use "in".

"I am at home in the living room."

Once again, the visible borders of "home" are not so easy to define, as they are with a house. The borders of the livingroom are very easy to visibly define, so we'll use "in".

Other examples include:

"I am in China." - visually defined borders, especially on maps.

"I am in Beijing." - Once again, visible borders.

"I am at the World Trade Center." - The borders are very difficult to define visually.

So, this is what I am talking about. We can add a valuable resource to our community.

Who knows, maybe it will become a sticky. Let's try it anyway.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks for that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

tomtheyak
11-16-2005, 02:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:

NK shouldn't try to conform with "correct" English. In a magnificent way he's consistently clear and perfectly understandable. Expecting from NK to change his syntax is like expecting Eco's Salvatore (the hunchback monk) to stop mixing several languages in his own perfectly understandable personal dialect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I was thinking exactly the same - its funny that out of all the people who post here I feel that NKs posts are the least misunderstood - some of the rants that occur are often open to misinterpretation thanks to the vagaries of english grammar and its incomplete comprehension by even those who have it as their first language!

Well said neural dream! And nakamura_kenji, do not feel you have to improve - you are understandable and your sincerety shines through and that is what matters most.

Makes me feel ashamed that I am not trying to return his compliment by typing in Japanese...

MLudner
11-16-2005, 02:56 PM
You know, this gets a tad exasperating. I even offer to help someone in nothing but the kindliest of spirit and get assaulted.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

To offer to help someone improve their knowledge is not an insult, and only the very vain would think it so. I live my entire life with the attitude that my education will never be complete until my death (Which why I just ordered 3 new Loeb Classical Library Transliterations) and with an understanding that there is much more that I do not know than I do know and if someone was offering - free of charge or any obligation - to sacrifice his or her time or effort on my behalf they would have my gratitude, not my excoriation.

There is not one insult to Kenji in one thing I have said. In fact his English is 100% better than my Japanese.

MLudner
11-16-2005, 03:05 PM
Oh, and by the way: Is his sincerity going to damaged in some mysterious way if he learns more English?

Dunkelgrun
11-16-2005, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
You know, this gets a tad exasperating. I even offer to help someone in nothing but the kindliest of spirit and get assaulted.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Far too sensitive, old fruit. Nobody has assaulted you or suggested that you insulted anyone. The respondents quoting your post have merely expressed their opinion, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

Cheers!

tomtheyak
11-16-2005, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Oh, and by the way: Is his sincerity going to damaged in some mysterious way if he learns more English? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No no no... there was no inference of you interfering mate! You're only helping out I know... and no attack on you was meant in the slightest buddy.
Sorry if it came across that way! I'm sure neural dream meant no harm either...

It was merely an observation that NK manages to express himself very well despite his trouble with the english language and that I enjoy his unique form of commms. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Again, apologies for the misunderstanding - no animosity meant http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

MLudner
11-16-2005, 03:31 PM
You know? That makes those posts even more annoying to me then. I think I'll continue to take them the way I first took them.

Why?

Because it's like telling someone not to learn. It encourages complacency.
(This is like walking through a minefield! Jeeeeez....)

When I say exasperating I mean less than angering, BTW, just annoying in a tiring manner.
Were I angry I would not have explained myself further, I would have bit back.

MLudner
11-16-2005, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Oh, and by the way: Is his sincerity going to damaged in some mysterious way if he learns more English? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No no no... there was no inference of you interfering mate! You're only helping out I know... and no attack on you was meant in the slightest buddy.
Sorry if it came across that way! I'm sure neural dream meant no harm either...

It was merely an observation that NK manages to express himself very well despite his trouble with the english language and that I enjoy his unique form of commms. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Again, apologies for the misunderstanding - no animosity meant http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Ah, well, good enough. There were inferences - Sorry, I habitually read between the lines - that caused me to believe you saying that I was poking fun at Kenji in some manner. I was trying in my previous posts to be careful NOT to offer any insult to him, but to make clear the sincerity of my desire to be of use.

And I tender my most sincere apologies for getting exasperated.

(BTW: Know, we were writing at the same time, my last is not a response to your last, but to Dunkelgrun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif)

tomtheyak
11-16-2005, 03:44 PM
Roger that Ludner! Alls well on planet yak! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

MLudner
11-16-2005, 04:05 PM
By the way, this is one of my favorite pieces of English Language trivia (My last post brought this to mind).

The word Sincere.

It comes from the Latin SINECERVS {sih-ney-kay-roos [oo from took, book]adjective, meaning sincere) / SINECERE (the adverbial form, meaning sincerely). In turn, the Latin word comes from the phrase: SINE CERVS, meaning "without wax". This comes from the way columns were made.
Cheap columns were hollow marble, or other stone, filled with wax. Good quality columns were made from solid marble.

MLudner
11-16-2005, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
Roger that Ludner! Alls well on planet yak! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IDEM IN ME. (The same for me) And I am glad to hear - or, rather, read - it.

Roger-wilco.
Over and Out!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


(Yes, I know, I was in the Army...)

nakamura_kenji
11-16-2005, 04:44 PM
I not mind please not argue over me ^_^. thank you i know english bad. i try improve just watch read and understand maybe no best way but i get there eventul. Wish mother still be around she was english&lt;=&gt;japanese translator for british mod.

seppuku is correct name hari kiri informal not nice name but one most people no japanese know. both use same kanji but reverse order hari kiri have okurigana. both mean same

seppuku = ˆ"...'
hari kiri = ...'ˆ""*

hello you able say many way ^_^

ohayo gozaimasu, ohayo(informal) = good morning
konichiwa = hello/good afternoon
konbanwa = good evening.

are sure romaji correct wokarimas do have kanji for? i no recognise you mean wakarimasu which mean to understand it formal version of wakaru?
someone who lord, position far above you use sama end name example be maddox-sama instead of maddox-san. maybe i just be dumb it i hunt check kanji dictionary later maybe old word i no recognise or i just dumb ^_^

MLudner
11-16-2005, 04:59 PM
Oh, do not worry, Kenji: It was not over you as much as over what we meant.
We're all friends again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


I have heard "Hai, wokarimasu" (Sorry, I forgot the "u") mostly in movies about old Japan and always from a subordinate to a leader. I have always thought it meant: "Yes, my lord!" or "Yes, Lord!" or something similar.

Kanji! That is Japanese for Japanese, is it not?

I feel like a dunce now, for I have heard konichiwa (Though, I thought it was kunichiwa).

Thou art nought dumb, methinks.
(A little evil English for you.)
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

nakamura_kenji
11-16-2005, 05:16 PM
japanese language is call nihongo have 3 main form of writing kanji,hiragana,katakana.

MLudner
11-16-2005, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
You know, this gets a tad exasperating. I even offer to help someone in nothing but the kindliest of spirit and get assaulted.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Far too sensitive, old fruit. Nobody has assaulted you or suggested that you insulted anyone. The respondents quoting your post have merely expressed their opinion, which they are perfectly entitled to do.

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Assaulted was too strong a word. My bad.
I seem so because I was trying to avoid insult to Kenji while offering help. A little while back a German misunderstood something I said and took umbrage and I have trying to avoid a repeat. I feared their posts might lead to the same with Kenji by causing him to think I was poking fun. That is what I meant by that "this is like walking through a minefield" remark.

Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood!

MLudner
11-16-2005, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
japanese language is call nihongo have 3 main form of writing kanji,hiragana,katakana. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ah-ha! Well, I knew kanji had something to do with Nihongo.

Does it help you when I rewrite your posts in correct English?
And:
Are you interested in help with your English?

nakamura_kenji
11-16-2005, 05:59 PM
Thank you for the offer but I must turn down. Much of my bad english is caused by me being lazy and not using books to help. I can type better english when I use books but I am incredible slow p_q. So I am unable do this all time sorry please excuse my lazyness v_v. It is easier for me to try learn by myself. If have a question I will ask. Please do not take offense, I would rather not cause other people problems.

This reply has taken me 25minutes to type &gt;_&lt;.

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by neural_dream:

NK shouldn't try to conform with "correct" English. In a magnificent way he's consistently clear and perfectly understandable. Expecting from NK to change his syntax is like expecting Eco's Salvatore (the hunchback monk) to stop mixing several languages in his own perfectly understandable personal dialect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I was thinking exactly the same - its funny that out of all the people who post here I feel that NKs posts are the least misunderstood - some of the rants that occur are often open to misinterpretation thanks to the vagaries of english grammar and its incomplete comprehension by even those who have it as their first language!

Well said neural dream! And nakamura_kenji, do not feel you have to improve - you are understandable and your sincerety shines through and that is what matters most.

Makes me feel ashamed that I am not trying to return his compliment by typing in Japanese... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really enjoy reading Kenji's posts as many do. He says so much with so few words.

But we must consider what he wants and I'm sure he wants to improve. In a way, selfishly, it's sad for us.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 06:39 PM
A little English spelling challenge:

How many different ways can you spell the "sh" sound in English?

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 07:52 PM
Tips for Learning English without a Teacher.

The first language I personally studied, other than my native language, English, was Arabic. During this time I was living in southwest Nova Scotia, Canada.

The reason I say "personally" is because we have to study French in Canadian schools. I was living in a French area and the discrimination from the Canadian French against the English, mcaused me to purposely maintained a score of zero in French classes. Only when after leaving Canada I became interested in the French language.

Back to teaching myself Arabic. In this area of Canada there are very few immigrants. Because of this I had to study Arabic by myself. But first, let's talk about how we learn.

Our Brain

Our brain is amazingly complex but I will try to explain in a simple way of how we physically learn languages. Having this understanding will help you to understand how we learn and therefore make learning somewhat easier.

The surface of our brain is covered in neurons. These neurons have what look like arms. When we learn these neuron arms start to grow and reach out to the arms of other neurons. When these arms connect to the arms of the other neuron we have successfully learnt something. This can be a sound, a word, or an idea.

Another way to imagine it is to think of the internet and information flow. The more computers connected to the internet means the more information accessible. The more sounds and words you know, the closer you are to being fluent.

Each neuron is a computer and the neural net is the internet.

When we are born our neural net is very active and connections are being made at an extreme rate. Regarding language, this degree of activity will remain until we reach the age of about 10. The reason the activity slows down is simply because we can speak our language well.

Note;it is often said that children learn languages quicker. This is not true. Anyone can become fluent in another language within 2 years. Children need about 10.

When we begin, let's say at the age of 30, to learn a new language, we must "wake" our sleeping neurons and make them active. This generally takes a few weeks.

Learning a New Language

Learning languages can be broken down into for parts; listening, speaking, reading, and writing. I also listed these in the order of importance.

How did you begin to learn your native language? By listening.

Listening is the most important aspect of learning any language. This is where your brain first gets the basics of language. When I studied Arabic without the help of a teacher, I started with cassettes. As I would drive to work I played the Arabic cassettes in my car. Once I was at work I used a Walkman to listen to the cassettes. When I was at home I played the cassettes on my stereo. My friends thought I was crazy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now here's the important part. Play your cassettes often, but do not concentrate on the sounds. Accept them as background noise, like music. When you concentrate you will quickly become frustrated and turn the sound off.

When you hear a new song, you never concentrate on it. You simply enjoy the sound and in no time you learn and memorize the song. The same method can work for learning a language.

So, I played my cassettes for 2-3 weeks without concentrating. This was to "wake" my neural net. Then, just like with any exercise, I stopped and rested for 1 week. During this 1 week my neural net organized itself. Suddenly I had so many Arabic words in my head. It seemed so automatic. I began to play my cassettes again and this time I concentrated a little. My neural net was now organized and operational. This is when you begin to learn and keep what you have learnt.

Speaking

Once my neural net was awake and working for me, I not only played my cassttes but also started imitating the sounds and words. I began repeating what I had been listening to. This is where the learning process becomes more interesting and enjoyable. It's a very good feeling to hear a word from another language and realize you can say, understand, and use it. This was very rewarding and my friends realized I wasn't as crazy as they had thought.

Learning a language is like a sport; practice makes perfection. The more you use it the better your language will be. It's totally natural. Speak out and don't worry about mistakes. We learn from our mistakes.

Reading

Reading is very important. When we read we get a better understanding of grammar and word order, instinctively. Once again, practice makes perfection. Your goal should be to make your new language a habit, just as your native language is a habit. This means, you have used it so many times that you needn't think before you speak. It's just like walking or eating.

Writing

Writing is, by far, the most difficult of the four aspects of learning a language and should also be your "end goal". The best way to learn writing is by reading. This, once again, trains your brain to use grammar, word order, and spelling as a habit.

My Personal Results

After 1 year of selfstudying Arabic, from books, cassettes, movies, and music, I moved to Egypt. My confidence regarding my Arabic skills were quite low. Once I was in Egypt and heard people speaking, I was totally amazed that I could understand what they were saying. Not only that, I could answer them and even make some jokes. This was extremely rewarding and exciting.

Helpful Hints

Consistency - be consistent. You don't have to study 5 hours everyday to learn a language but you should at least expose yourself to the language for an hour a day. This can be with music, movies, books, or studying.

Imaginary conversations - Imagine a possible conversation using what you have already learnt. This is great since your imagination isn't limited to time. You can also control the conversation on both sides. Practice makes perfection.

Mistakes - don't be afraid of making mistakes. Mistakes are your best friend! When you speak and realize you just made a mistake, be happy. Yes, be happy you made the mistake. Think about it. If you realize your mistakes you are more than half way to perfection. Chances are, you will not make the same mistake often. The first step to solving a problem is identifying the problem.

Share your language - try to find others who speak the language you are learning or are at least trying to learn. A native speaker of the language you are learning will be very happy that you are trying to learn their language. This is a great compliment to the native speakers.

Keep a record of your success - since learning a language is a relatively slow process, it is very hard to visualize your progress. This can actully lower your confidence and make you lose interest. Once a month, write a letter to yourself, in the language you are learning. Put the letters in a safe place and when you feel your interest level or confidence level is low, read through your letters from the beginning. In a very short amount of time, you will see your progress.

This post is somewhat long so I'll end it here. I'm sure other members of this community will post their suggestions and ideas. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I also feel it will be very helpful for the ESL students to post their ideas and suggestions. What worked for you?

Fritz

JRJacobs
11-16-2005, 08:25 PM
A little entomology.
The original natives of England were Celts. The were pushed out by a couple of German tribes that lived in the angle of land where Denmark juts out into the North Sea (Jutland) near Saxony.
These tribes, the Angles and the Saxons eventually took over most of England.
The Saxon Kingdoms in the West, South, and East became Wessex, Sussex, and Essex. In 1066 a descendant of Vikings that had settled in France (North-men - Normandy) took over England. He brought with him Churchman and Physicians. so... the Nobles spoke French, The Scribes and Monks spoke Latin, The Doctors spoke Greek, and the Peasants spoke German and therefor in English the big words are usually French, the little words are usually German, the Scientific words are Latin, and the Medical words are Greek. Now you know WHY English rules make no sense!!

PS. Because of the fact most high-born spoke French and Latin and most low-born spoke German, most swear words are nothing more than lowly peasant-scum words, hence urinate vs. pizzen (pi$$) or defecate vs. scheizen (sh-i-t)

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 08:33 PM
MLudner,

I've seen a few of your posts where you mentioned your interest in learning German and that you haven't gotten much help.

First, don't take it personal; Germans are shy.

My mother, although coming from a German family, never spoke German. She was born in Canada at a time where German was a language that represented evil. My father was born in Germany and therefore his native language was German. But, as he explained to me, he stopped speaking German to me a few weeks after I was born simply because my mother would often ridicule him. Once again, Germans are shy.

I studied German by myself. I started only years ago. When I first went to Germany I was able to speak German but only Hoch-Deutsch. This meant everyone understood me perfectly but I couldn't understand others since Germany has so many dialects.

Note;Hoch-Deutsch is mistakenly translated as meaning "high-level" German. The "hoch" actually refers to altitude since this dialect originally comes from the south, high in the mountains.

The area I live in Germany is called "Frankisch". Any Germans reading this post will probably chuckle right away. Frankisch-Deutsch is almost a different language from German. The worst, by German standards, is Saxonian-Deutsch(Dresden).

If you want help with German I will do my best to assist you, but you must be specific. I've yet to see you post a direct question other than "can you help". Germans will be typically afraid to say "yes", simply because they are afraid you will ask a question they cannot answer.

Give it a try, post a direct question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

When asking for help you will probably get no answer. When presenting the problem, you probably get many answers.

Simply a cultural difference.

Fritz

JRJacobs
11-16-2005, 08:34 PM
And let me confuse you with humor

Here it is - the latest news from Europe. The News Standard has received this bulletin fresh from our Brussels-based hack. The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for short).

In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c". Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would go. By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" by "z" and "w" by v.

During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and e vrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali *** tru.

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 08:52 PM
Jacobs,

I've read that before and thought it was great. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

Brass_Monkey
11-16-2005, 09:17 PM
I love the different English "dialects" in the US. I'm from Bastahn where the Red Sox play in Fenway Pahk, we don't prounounce the "R". Heck I've got seasons tickets for foah. Don't know which is more unique, New England, New Yawk or the South.

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Before the Norman invasion, the English language was very different from today's. In fact, if a modern English speaker was somehow able to go back in time to England before the invasions, verbal communication would be somewhat impossible. The occupation lasted for about 200 years and in that short time English had gone through many changes.

The government did their business in French. The schools educated in Latin. The peasants spoke English. Of course, over time, these languages got mixed to form the language we speak today.

This is what William of Nassyngton (chronicler) wrote in 1325:

Latin can no one speak, I trow,(believe)
But those who it from school do know;
And some know French, but no Latin
Who're used to Court and dwell therein,
And some use Latin, though in part,
Who if known have not the art,
And some can understand English
That neither Latin knew, nor French
But simple or learned, old or young
All understand the English tongue.

The development of English is quite interesting me thinks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think a few have misunderstood my post. I wasn't trying to point out the differences but rather the similarities. Of course this is my fault so I will explain in more detail.

The quote of William of Nassyngton shows us how little English has changed in the last 700 years. I know this statement probably surprises the non-native English speakers so I will present and example of English from approximately 1000 years ago. This will not be easy since I am limited to modern letters.

The oldest known English written story/poem is "Beowulf". The story isn't really special or unique since there are more than 700 hundred similar known stories from this time. What makes "Beowulf" special is that it has been written and has more or less survived. Today we still have the original book. It has endured 1000 years of our environment and even at one time a fire.

As I mentioned above, the example I will make is fairly accurate but I am limited to modern letters. I will write it in modern and simple pronunciation, but in Old English. If you have a knowledge of English, German, and French phonetics, keep them in mind for:

W = English V
TH = Eng. TH or soft like DH
G = hard like English "good"
E = like German E, English long A "hate"
A = varies from "that" to "father"
O = English "ought" or "god"
U = English "rude"
Y = French tu

No vowel combinations are pronounced as one sound. When you see vowel combinations, consider them as seperate syllables.

The opening lines of Beowulf in Old English:

Hwat! We Gar-Dena in gear-dagnum,
theod-cyninga, thrym gefrunon,
hu tha athelingas ellen fremeddon!

Poetic modern English:

Listen! We have heard of the glory of the Spear-Danes
in the old days, the kings of tribes --
how noble princes showed great courage!

Simplified modern English:

Hey, we've all heard of the great Danish warriors, the kings and princes, and how they had shown great courage in battle.

So, compare the opening lines in Old English with what William of Nassyngton wrote only 200- 300 years later. Then compare William's writngs to modern English and I think you'll see my original point.

I hope I didn't scare Kenji away. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BTW, I can link the Old English lines I posted with modern German on 7 example, but only 2 with modern English. This is typical of the rest of the book.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-16-2005, 09:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brass_Monkey:
I love the different English "dialects" in the US. I'm from Bastahn where the Red Sox play in Fenway Pahk, we don't prounounce the "R". Heck I've got seasons tickets for foah. Don't know which is more unique, New England, New Yawk or the South. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW, did you know what "Brass Monkey" means? I know many don't.

In Nova Scotia it is common to say "it is cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey"

But like I said, many don't understand the meaning of "brass monkey" or even the saying.

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-17-2005, 02:43 AM
language from example are much different from each other it amaze but guess all language change great over time ^_^.

once i try use english on teamspeak it no go very well ^_^. voice not suit much seem i get keep ask speak though microphone volume high up level ^_^

speak non japanese often find people speak englsh pronounce name wrong most time i no mind as say many thing wrong english also ^_^

usual they say like kenjy (with y sound like bouncey) where mean say kenje. it anoy father much people he work with just call him john ^_^

fun time friend try get me say loch which scotish name lake. he describe make L sound then try be sick ^_^

Dunkelgrun
11-17-2005, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brass_Monkey:
I love the different English "dialects" in the US. I'm from Bastahn where the Red Sox play in Fenway Pahk, we don't prounounce the "R". Heck I've got seasons tickets for foah. Don't know which is more unique, New England, New Yawk or the South. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


BTW, did you know what "Brass Monkey" means? I know many don't.

In Nova Scotia it is common to say "it is cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey"

But like I said, many don't understand the meaning of "brass monkey" or even the saying.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the standard explanation, but it seems to be based on a myth:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Brass monkey weather
The popular explanation is that warships in the 18th century stored their shot on brass racks called monkeys. In the cold weather the brass contracted causing the shot to fall onto the deck hence the expression. However although we cannot offer an alternative explanation we do not think this theory is tenable. Most of the round shot was carried in racks or 'garlands' which were either wood or rope. No nautical dictionaries give any reference to the brass monkey although monkey was a term used for all sorts of other things. The use of brass is also questionable since it was a fairly expensive commodity and there seems to be no reason for its use when wood sufficed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't, however, be surprised if it did have naval origins. Much of our slang does, and the Royal Navy used the word 'monkey' rather a lot.

Cheers!

PS @ MLudner - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 04:23 AM
Right on Dunkelgrun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

sy-subrc
11-17-2005, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

First, don't take it personal; Germans are shy.


The area I live in Germany is called "Frankisch". Any Germans reading this post will probably chuckle right away. Frankisch-Deutsch is almost a different language from German. The worst, by German standards, is Saxonian-Deutsch(Dresden).

If you want help with German I will do my best to assist you, but you must be specific. I've yet to see you post a direct question other than "can you help". Germans will be typically afraid to say "yes", simply because they are afraid you will ask a question they cannot answer.

Give it a try, post a direct question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

When asking for help you will probably get no answer. When presenting the problem, you probably get many answers.

Simply a cultural difference.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Fritz, hi MLudner,

I don't think that the Germans are shy in general - I take this as a stereotype http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But I can understand that it was a problem for emigrants, especially after the war, to speak their mother tounge.

Anyway, "me not shy" - but as you mentioned, the typical answer to the question "Can you help" is
either yes or no :-). You have to be a bit more specific. Ok, a kind person then would ask what the problem actual is...

I don't know if this is a cultural difference.

Maybe you've just met the wrong people but this can happen to you everywhere. On the other side, I could'nt explain any German grammar to anyone, since I've absolute no (maybe a little) clue about the rules behind my language, but if you ask me i.e. if a sentence is correct, or how to express something, I would be happy to help you.

Fritz, I think the area you live in is called Franken - fr¤nkisch is the name of the dialect which is indeed hard to understand for someone from the "north" or abroad. I live in the Saarland, in a region between France and Luxembourg and we have at least as many dialect as we have villages..

Bye or Salü like we say where I come from...

Olaf

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

First, don't take it personal; Germans are shy.


The area I live in Germany is called "Frankisch". Any Germans reading this post will probably chuckle right away. Frankisch-Deutsch is almost a different language from German. The worst, by German standards, is Saxonian-Deutsch(Dresden).

If you want help with German I will do my best to assist you, but you must be specific. I've yet to see you post a direct question other than "can you help". Germans will be typically afraid to say "yes", simply because they are afraid you will ask a question they cannot answer.

Give it a try, post a direct question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

When asking for help you will probably get no answer. When presenting the problem, you probably get many answers.

Simply a cultural difference.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Fritz, hi MLudner,

I don't think that the Germans are shy in general - I take this as a stereotype http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But I can understand that it was a problem for emigrants, especially after the war, to speak their mother tounge.

Anyway, "me not shy" - but as you mentioned, the typical answer to the question "Can you help" is
either yes or no :-). You have to be a bit more specific. Ok, a kind person then would ask what the problem actual is...

I don't know if this is a cultural difference.

Maybe you've just met the wrong people but this can happen to you everywhere. On the other side, I could'nt explain any German grammar to anyone, since I've absolute no (maybe a little) clue about the rules behind my language, but if you ask me i.e. if a sentence is correct, or how to express something, I would be happy to help you.

Fritz, I think the area you live in is called Franken - fr¤nkisch is the name of the dialect which is indeed hard to understand for someone from the "north" or abroad. I live in the Saarland, in a region between France and Luxembourg and we have at least as many dialect as we have villages..

Bye or Salü like we say where I come from...

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, ja, das stimmt. I wrote that less thatn 5 minutes after climbing out of bed and 10 minutes before my first coffee.

So, I'm guessing you are near Saarbrücken? I was there earlier this year.

Germans being shy wasn't so much a stereotype as much as it was a comparison between Germans and N. Americans.

Olaf, have you spent anytime in the Franken area? So far, this is my favorite area of Germany. It took a little getting used to the people but well worth it. The language is tough though.

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-17-2005, 05:59 AM
there young german(9) start kendo few mounth ago, he nice though he no speak very little japanese (private teacher think he get teach german school thing0. uncle some reason think kenji speak english and no far away from germany language can no be that different so he can teach ^_^. my german about ya, nein, guten morgan, guten tag, guten abend (i learn anime/manga sometime have german character ^_^)

My boss i make 3d model for has very good english yaya ^_^. I also find they shy compare to american

Aero_Shodanjo
11-17-2005, 09:02 AM
Great thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ive been following from the start and it's very helpful for me - another non-english speaker - to learn more.

Anyway, I've got a question about some english terms. Informal terms, perhaps, but I've seen them quite often in this forum.

One of them is "old chaps/chap". What is this actually means and when/to whom it is considered proper to use?

I can't remember any other words for now, I'll ask again later.

Thanks in advance.

sy-subrc
11-17-2005, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
So, I'm guessing you are near Saarbrücken? I was there earlier this year.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's exactly where I live.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Germans being shy wasn't so much a stereotype as much as it was a comparison between Germans and N. Americans.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, maybe compared to US Americans, but not to european standards, I think. Humble maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I think there's a also a difference in the appearance /manner [don't know which word to choose..] between Canadians ans US Americans. The Canadians I met, seemed to be more "european", but I may be wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Olaf, have you spent anytime in the Franken area? So far, this is my favorite area of Germany. It took a little getting used to the people but well worth it. The language is tough though.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, Germany is so small, it's hard not have spent some time at any place in Germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - I spent my Bundeswehr time near Ingolstadt, and was quite often in Nürnberg, Bamberg and Aschaffenburg. Hopefully we'll soon have a big project with Audi in Ingolstadt.
I like their accent - It sounds kinda funny, especially when they change the ending of words (..en --&gt; ..ne ). A real 'Franke' would say "listne" instead of "listen" or 'writtne' instead of 'written' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But back to the main topic: English

In german we have the word 'Paar' (starting with a capital) which means a 'pair of something' and the word 'paar' (with a lower caser 'p') which means 'some'or 'few'.

I always thought in english the word '<span class="ev_code_RED">couple</span>' could also be used as a synonym for 'some' or 'few' but my english teacher (a very lovely Canadian girl, btw) told (insisting) me once its only meaning is 'two'.

What's correct?

Bye

Olaf

berg417448
11-17-2005, 09:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
So, I'm guessing you are near Saarbrücken? I was there earlier this year.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's exactly where I live.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Germans being shy wasn't so much a stereotype as much as it was a comparison between Germans and N. Americans.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, maybe compared to US Americans, but not to european standards, I think. Humble maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I think there's a also a difference in the appearance /manner [don't know which word to choose..] between Canadians ans US Americans. The Canadians I met, seemed to be more "european", but I may be wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Olaf, have you spent anytime in the Franken area? So far, this is my favorite area of Germany. It took a little getting used to the people but well worth it. The language is tough though.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, Germany is so small, it's hard not have spent some time at any place in Germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - I spent my Bundeswehr time near Ingolstadt, and was quite often in Nürnberg, Bamberg and Aschaffenburg. Hopefully we'll soon have a big project with Audi in Ingolstadt.
I like their accent - It sounds kinda funny, especially when they change the ending of words (..en --&gt; ..ne ). A real 'Franke' would say "listne" instead of "listen" or 'writtne' instead of 'written' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But back to the main topic: English

In german we have the word 'Paar' (starting with a capital) which means a 'pair of something' and the word 'paar' (with a lower caser 'p') which means 'some'or 'few'.

I always thought in english the word '<span class="ev_code_RED">couple</span>' could also be used as a synonym for 'some' or 'few' but my english teacher (a very lovely Canadian girl, btw) told (insisting) me once its only meaning is 'two'.

What's correct?

Bye

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your teacher is correct. COUPLE usually refers to two items of the same kind. It is often used to describe two people who are engaged or are married.

F19_Olli72
11-17-2005, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
So, I'm guessing you are near Saarbrücken? I was there earlier this year.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's exactly where I live.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Germans being shy wasn't so much a stereotype as much as it was a comparison between Germans and N. Americans.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, maybe compared to US Americans, but not to european standards, I think. Humble maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I think there's a also a difference in the appearance /manner [don't know which word to choose..] between Canadians ans US Americans. The Canadians I met, seemed to be more "european", but I may be wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Olaf, have you spent anytime in the Franken area? So far, this is my favorite area of Germany. It took a little getting used to the people but well worth it. The language is tough though.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, Germany is so small, it's hard not have spent some time at any place in Germany http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - I spent my Bundeswehr time near Ingolstadt, and was quite often in Nürnberg, Bamberg and Aschaffenburg. Hopefully we'll soon have a big project with Audi in Ingolstadt.
I like their accent - It sounds kinda funny, especially when they change the ending of words (..en --&gt; ..ne ). A real 'Franke' would say "listne" instead of "listen" or 'writtne' instead of 'written' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But back to the main topic: English

In german we have the word 'Paar' (starting with a capital) which means a 'pair of something' and the word 'paar' (with a lower caser 'p') which means 'some'or 'few'.

I always thought in english the word '<span class="ev_code_RED">couple</span>' could also be used as a synonym for 'some' or 'few' but my english teacher (a very lovely Canadian girl, btw) told (insisting) me once its only meaning is 'two'.

What's correct?

Bye

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your teacher is correct. COUPLE usually refers to two items of the same kind. It is often used to describe two people who are engaged or are married. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually she is wrong. From Oxfords english dictionary:

"couple

€ noun 1 two individuals of the same sort considered together. 2 treated as sing. or pl. two people who are married or otherwise closely associated romantically or sexually. 3 informal an indefinite small number. 4 Mechanics a pair of equal and parallel forces acting in opposite directions and tending to cause rotation."

http://www.askoxford.com/results/?view=dict&field-12668446=couple&branch=13842570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score%2Cname

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 09:57 AM
I often tease my brothers and sister about the use of "a couple". Of course for people it simply means 2. But, let's say for example "A couple of days ago.", this can be 3 and in some cases 4.

When using it as a noun, think of 2. When using it as an adjective, think or 2-4.

Personally, it's always 2 when I say it, but that's just me.

BTW, Olaf, my home is in Bad Staffelstein, near Lichtenfels. When I return to Germany next month I'll move to Zapfendorf, near Bamberg.

Also, I was in Saarbrücken to install machinery at the transmission manufacturer. Sorry, can't remember the name right now but I'm sure you know it.

Trinkst du gern Frankisches Bier? Es ist fai gut geschmeckt, ne? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Great thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ive been following from the start and it's very helpful for me - another non-english speaker - to learn more.

Anyway, I've got a question about some english terms. Informal terms, perhaps, but I've seen them quite often in this forum.

One of them is "old chaps/chap". What is this actually means and when/to whom it is considered proper to use?

I can't remember any other words for now, I'll ask again later.

Thanks in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TBH, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe it is somewhat a sign of respect in a friendly manner, kind of like saying "buddy". I'm sure a Brit will give a definitive answer.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
The Canadians I met, seemed to be more "european", but I may be wrong.


Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you may be right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

At least that's been my impression.

Fritz

sy-subrc
11-17-2005, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Actually she is wrong. From Oxfords english dictionary:

"couple

€ noun 1 two individuals of the same sort considered together. 2 treated as sing. or pl. two people who are married or otherwise closely associated romantically or sexually. 3 informal an indefinite small number. 4 Mechanics a pair of equal and parallel forces acting in opposite directions and tending to cause rotation."
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great, so I was right. Unfortunately she moved away, a 'couple' of months ago. No more opportunity to savour my triumph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
When using it as a noun, think of 2. When using it as an adjective, think or 2-4.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That matches exactly with the german "Paar / paar" and with my personal habit of using this word.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Also, I was in Saarbrücken to install machinery at the transmission manufacturer. Sorry, can't remember the name right now but I'm sure you know it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must have been at the "ZF Getriebefabrik" ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Trinkst du gern Frankisches Bier? Es ist fai gut geschmeckt, ne? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only when I have the opportunity, usually I prefer our local hop & malt products http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Bye and thanks to all for the clarification

Olaf

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 10:19 AM
Yes, ZF. Thx, now I can sleep. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

dieg777
11-17-2005, 10:54 AM
chap is a bit old fashioned way of refering to a man.

e.g. that chap (man) there , he used to work beside me.

couple is usually two but can be a bit looser e.g. a couple of days ago can mean any amount in the last few days.

Bongokid
11-17-2005, 11:34 AM
I often see in forums the expression 'pun intended' or 'no pun intended'

i tend to take it as 'offense intended', but am not sur at all.

any insight ?

Bongokid

berg417448
11-17-2005, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongokid:
I often see in forums the expression 'pun intended' or 'no pun intended'

i tend to take it as 'offense intended', but am not sur at all.

any insight ?

Bongokid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No...it has nothing to do with offense. Click this link for a long explanation of "pun".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pun

Capt.England
11-17-2005, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
Great thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ive been following from the start and it's very helpful for me - another non-english speaker - to learn more.

Anyway, I've got a question about some english terms. Informal terms, perhaps, but I've seen them quite often in this forum.

One of them is "old chaps/chap". What is this actually means and when/to whom it is considered proper to use?

I can't remember any other words for now, I'll ask again later.

Thanks in advance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you say `old chap`, you are normally speaking to one person. If you say `old chaps`, this of course means a group of people. Sometimes, you may hear someone say `chaps` to one person `hello old chaps', how are you?`. this is meant as a informal greeting to one person. There is a saying `Bobs' your Uncle`. That does not mean that all people called Bob is your Uncle, just that your Uncle is called Bob. you normally say this when asked to do a job and you can do it.

example:

Can you paint this fence for me?

answer; Sure, Bobs' your Uncle!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bongokid
11-17-2005, 02:05 PM
Ok then i was mighty wrong....thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I understood properly the definition in wikipedia, a pun is a kind of 'play with words pronunciation and meaning'.

So when i read 'pun intended' in a sentence, the author is warning the reader that what he wrote includes a kind of joke...right ?

Bongokid

berg417448
11-17-2005, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongokid:
Ok then i was mighty wrong....thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If I understood properly the definition in wikipedia, a pun is a kind of 'play with words pronunciation and meaning'.

So when i read 'pun intended' in a sentence, the author is warning the reader that what he wrote includes a kind of joke...right ?

Bongokid </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

neural_dream
11-17-2005, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JRJacobs:
A little entomology. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Entomology as in
http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/58/0851996558.jpg

Etymology as in

http://www.traveldirectorynet.co.uk/images/0192830988.JPG

Funny no-one noticed.

MLudner
11-17-2005, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
Thank you for the offer but I must turn down. Much of my bad english is caused by me being lazy and not using books to help. I can type better english when I use books but I am incredible slow p_q. So I am unable do this all time sorry please excuse my lazyness v_v. It is easier for me to try learn by myself. If have a question I will ask. Please do not take offense, I would rather not cause other people problems.

This reply has taken me 25minutes to type &gt;_&lt;. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well enough, I take no offense, Nakamura-sama. And, I sympathize entirely with the time it took you to write that post. It took me some time to construct a response in German to the German who had misunderstood me using two dictionaries (Both visible in the photos I left in another thread of books on my desk). Since he never replied I do not know how good a job I did with it.

Learning through osmosis - by exposure - works as well. Not that you have to, any more than I have to learn French...

MLudner
11-17-2005, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
MLudner,

I've seen a few of your posts where you mentioned your interest in learning German and that you haven't gotten much help.

First, don't take it personal; Germans are shy.

My mother, although coming from a German family, never spoke German. She was born in Canada at a time where German was a language that represented evil. My father was born in Germany and therefore his native language was German. But, as he explained to me, he stopped speaking German to me a few weeks after I was born simply because my mother would often ridicule him. Once again, Germans are shy.

I studied German by myself. I started only years ago. When I first went to Germany I was able to speak German but only Hoch-Deutsch. This meant everyone understood me perfectly but I couldn't understand others since Germany has so many dialects.

Note;Hoch-Deutsch is mistakenly translated as meaning "high-level" German. The "hoch" actually refers to altitude since this dialect originally comes from the south, high in the mountains.

The area I live in Germany is called "Frankisch". Any Germans reading this post will probably chuckle right away. Frankisch-Deutsch is almost a different language from German. The worst, by German standards, is Saxonian-Deutsch(Dresden).

If you want help with German I will do my best to assist you, but you must be specific. I've yet to see you post a direct question other than "can you help". Germans will be typically afraid to say "yes", simply because they are afraid you will ask a question they cannot answer.

Give it a try, post a direct question. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

When asking for help you will probably get no answer. When presenting the problem, you probably get many answers.

Simply a cultural difference.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I did ask that other German - for the life of me, I cannot remember his callsign, this was some months ago now - for specific help. Of you I just asked if it were possible if you could and when you said your German was not very good I decided not to bother you with it.

But, it is this: An author using the psuedonym FLAVIVS AETIVS - which is pretty cool, as I know exactly who that is historically - published a story called "Nevermore" which I have read. In the story a 13 year old girl is kidnapped by a man determined to save her from herself. A WWII vet German SS Panzeroffizier gets involved in the rescue. He first meets the girl near the end of the story. He makes remark, which she translates (The girl is a genius). Surprised, he asks:
"Sprechen zie Deutsch?"
She replies:
"Etwas wenig; nicht viel, nicht genug fur ein gesprach."
(Note, it might be venig, the author wrote it phonetically and in the book the line appears: Etvas venig; nisht viel, nisht genug fur ein gesprach)
It should mean: "Some little; not much, not enough for a conversation."

The author - I have spoken with him in a chat room - was hoping it would be mostly correct, but not completely. She should sound like an American using German.

Dunkelgrun
11-17-2005, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One of them is "old chaps/chap". What is this actually means and when/to whom it is considered proper to use? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is normally considered to be used by the 'upper' and 'middle' classes, in such phrases as 'I say, old chap, how's the wife?' and 'Come along you chaps, play the game'.

Where it came from I don't know but it has certainly been popularised and satirised because of its wartime association with officers and gentlemen, and also the RAF.

'Jolly good show chaps!' and all that; think handlebar moustaches or Captain Mainwaring.

It can be applied to both friends or enemies, but is used informally, i.e. groups of friends.

'Old chap' in this context doesn't have any bearing on age of the person so called, and is sometimes used when one is speaking to a friend, or trying to encourage or cajole a subordinate or junior. Normally calling someone 'old chap' implies a good friendship.

Digressing somewhat, but the use of 'old' as an adjective is common and often quite meaningless. I do it all the time, but I've no idea why!

Sorry about the rambling nature of this post; time for bed!

Cheers!

MLudner
11-17-2005, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
The Canadians I met, seemed to be more "european", but I may be wrong.


Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you may be right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

At least that's been my impression.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have always considered the Canadians closer to Europeans than to Americans, with some exception for those in western Canada.

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Surprised, he asks:
"Sprechen zie Deutsch?"
She replies:
"Etwas wenig; nicht viel, nicht genug fur ein gesprach."
(Note, it might be venig, the author wrote it phonetically and in the book the line appears: Etvas venig; nisht viel, nisht genug fur ein gesprach)
It should mean: "Some little; not much, not enough for a conversation."

The author - I have spoken with him in a chat room - was hoping it would be mostly correct, but not completely. She should sound like an American using German. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Sprechen Sie Deutsch?"

"Etwas wenig, nicht viel, nicht genug für ein Gespr¤ch."

This is the proper spelling. This is ok with the exception of "genug". It should be "genugend".

You have the correct understanding MLudner.

My reply would have been;

"Ein Bisschen aber nicht so viel." A little but no so much.

I think I'm correct and I hope Olaf will either confirm it or correct me.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
I have always considered the Canadians closer to Europeans than to Americans, with some exception for those in western Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought of this also.

Fritz

neural_dream
11-17-2005, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
My reply would have been;
"Ein Bisschen aber nicht so viel." A little but no so much.
I think I'm correct and I hope Olaf will either confirm it or correct me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
it's bisschen, not Bisschen. Apart from that not bad, although "Nur ein bisschen." would be enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 07:28 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Das stimmt.

Fritz

MLudner
11-17-2005, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
I have always considered the Canadians closer to Europeans than to Americans, with some exception for those in western Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought of this also.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Pirschjager.

I was confused by the "end" ending you added, but I have looked it up. My Webster's New World German Dictionary shows two variations:

Genug
Genugend

Genug is adjectival, Genugend is both an adjective and an adverb. You are saying the adverbial use would be more correct I gather.

( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You know what the Old English for "enough" is?
Genoh!
I just remembered this, BTW)

Are you sure? My thinking is that it's a noun or adjective in this case, as it refers to "German".

If it is incorrect, then the author would be pleased, BTW. He was hoping a German would not say it that way.

Brass_Monkey
11-17-2005, 08:23 PM
Pirsch, Yeah that thing about the Iron balls and the brass "monkey" is a bunch of balony. Now the saying "The whole nine yards" some will say it refers to the length of a machine gun belt in a P-51 or another US WW II fighter. Others will say it refers to the number of Yards on a three masted square rigger. all I do know though is that here in New England it does get cold enough to freeze the #$%^* off of this "Brass_Monkey"

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 09:15 PM
There is no Future Tense in English

Future Tense is a common misconception that even English teachers teach in native English countries. There is however, Future Form.

I will try to explain 3 of the 12 traditional tenses and forms as simply as possible. These 3 are the most commonly used and the basics for learning the other 9. First, we must understand a few definitions.

Simple Past - this is when we talk about an action or event that began and finished before now/present.

Examples;

He went to school yesterday.

MLudner studied Latin.

Steve V banned 53 people last week. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Simple Present - this is when we talk about actions that are happening now/presently or close to now/present. This tense is not as simple as it's title suggests.

Examples:

Habitual Actions

He walks to school every day.

MLudner studies Latin.

Steve V bans 53 people weekly.

Physical Laws or Customs

Water freezes at 0 degrees centigrade.

Germans love beer.

*We use present verbs with an "s" ending when referring to he/she/it.

I go shopping on the weekends.
You go shopping on the weekends.
*He/she/it goes shopping on the weekends.
We go shopping on the weekends.
They go shopping on the weekends.

BTW(By the way)British say "at the weekends". N.Americans say "on the weekends". Both are correct.

Future Form We use this to talk about something that we expect to happen at some definite point in the future. Most commonly we use will and going to but there is a difference between the two. In these examples I will use only will to keep it simple. At the bottom of this post I will explain the difference between will and going to.

The reason I wrote that English does not have a future tense is because the verbs we use when talking about the future are in the Infinitive form. Infinitive means no tense or time. The verb will remain in it's basic form. In these examples I will only use will. Will is an auxilary verb or helper verb.

Examples:

He will go to school tomorrow.

MLudner will study Latin.

Steve V will ban 53 people next week.

Notice the verbs are in their basic form but they needed the aux. verb/helper verb(will) to express the future.

Past...........Present.............Future

went............go/goes...............will go
did...............do/does...............will do
flew.............fly/flies................will fly
shot.............shoot/shoots........will shoot
played..........play/plays............will play
crashed.........crash/crashes......will crash
got...............get/gets..............will get


will/going to/ verb + ing

These three can be divided into two basic groups.

will and going to/ verb + ing

The differences is about the time of speaking and whether or not the action was planned.

Example Situation:

You and your teammate are flying on WC and you are both using TS(teamspeak). Suddenly your teammate realizes he's got an enemy on his 6 and calls for help. You are close to his location and can see your teammate. You answer on TS "I'll get him!"

"I'll get him!"

The reason you used will and not going to is because you made the decision very close to the time you spoke.

More Examples:

The phone rings. You say "I'll answer it!"

Someone knocks at the door. You say "I'll get it"
Someone drops something near you. You say "I'll get it for you."

So, when making a decision during the time of discussion, use will.

When you are talking about a desision made before the conversation, use going to/verb + ing.

Examples:

Q; What are you doing this weekend?

A; I'm going to relax.
or
I'm visiting my uncle in New York.
or
I'm going to play IL-2.
or
I'm playing IL-2.
or
I'm going to sleep.
or
I'm studying English.

So, to keep things simple:

Decision made during conversation: will
Decision made before conversation: going to/verb + ing

This of course was a very basic explanation. It is a little more complicated but not by much. What I've explained are the most common and daily uses.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
I have always considered the Canadians closer to Europeans than to Americans, with some exception for those in western Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought of this also.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Pirschjager.

I was confused by the "end" ending you added, but I have looked it up. My Webster's New World German Dictionary shows two variations:

Genug
Genugend

Genug is adjectival, Genugend is both an adjective and an adverb. You are saying the adverbial use would be more correct I gather.

( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You know what the Old English for "enough" is?
Genoh!
I just remembered this, BTW)

Are you sure? My thinking is that it's a noun or adjective in this case, as it refers to "German".

If it is incorrect, then the author would be pleased, BTW. He was hoping a German would not say it that way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be more certain, I just called a friend from Mannheim. He confirmed that I was correct, but then again, it could be Mannheimisch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

He also said the example you gave sounded like Americanisch-Deutsch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 09:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brass_Monkey:
Pirsch, Yeah that thing about the Iron balls and the brass "monkey" is a bunch of balony. Now the saying "The whole nine yards" some will say it refers to the length of a machine gun belt in a P-51 or another US WW II fighter. Others will say it refers to the number of Yards on a three masted square rigger. all I do know though is that here in New England it does get cold enough to freeze the #$%^* off of this "Brass_Monkey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm from Yarmouth/Digby, N.S., I hear ya buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

JR_Greenhorn
11-17-2005, 10:44 PM
I can't believe I read an 8-page thread on "English Usage," and I never encountered a lesson on the homophones "there," "they're," and "their." Perhaps someone else can give a primer on these. It is very annoying to see native English speakers continually use these words interchangeably. Which brings me to my next point. Why do so many native English speakers use adverbs incorrect? (pun intended)

Pirschjaeger
11-17-2005, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
I can't believe I read an 8-page thread on "English Usage," and I never encountered a lesson on the homophones "there," "they're," and "their." Perhaps someone else can give a primer on these. It is very annoying to see native English speakers continually use these words interchangeably. Which brings me to my next point. Why do so many native English speakers use adverbs incorrect? (pun intended) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha ha, it's because they don't take so much care regarding proper grammar and such. ESL students are much more concerned with correctness.

How concerned are you when using your native language? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW, what is your native language?

If no one else posts something on "there, they're, and their", I will do so later. I must work now.

Fritz

dieg777
11-18-2005, 02:56 AM
The main problem with English from a native speakers point of view is that for many years it has not been taught in schools properly. We do not get taught formally the building blocks of our own language such as sentence structure, useage of adverbs , nouns , pronouns etc. This I believe is why many english speakers find it difficult to learn foreign languages.

anyway here is the way I would use the following:


There can refer to a place

the books are stored over there (on the shelf)

or in the past tense in a statement such as

There were many spitfires in ww2

They' re is an abbreviation of they are and is usually involved with an action. It is present or future tense

They are watching television

They are going to the football game today

Their is possesive

It is their television

hope that helps

a very good book for learning punctuation is here-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/qid.../026-5739373-1930860 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/qid%3D1132307608/026-5739373-1930860)

of course this usually goes awol when writting informally in a forum.

nakamura_kenji
11-18-2005, 03:14 AM
*raise hand ask question*

how you say/spell fusalague(main part plane)?

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 03:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
*raise hand ask question*

how you say/spell fusalague(main part plane)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

fuselage

You can put your hand down now Kenji. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-18-2005, 03:51 AM
i wonder how say now guess start same a fuse or i wrong think?

fuse lag e?
fusel age?
fuse la ge?

it odd word ^_^

Sturm_Williger
11-18-2005, 04:03 AM
Pronunciation of fuselage :

Fuse-eh-large ( but the last syllable is a softer "G" sound than the "J" sound you would use when saying "large" ).

I can't think of another example - it must be French in origin. I hope that helps a little.

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 04:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Pronunciation of fuselage :

Fuse-eh-large ( but the last syllable is a softer "G" sound than the "J" sound you would use when saying "large" ).

I can't think of another example - it must be French in origin. I hope that helps a little. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, French in origin.

Also, the strongest stress will be on the first syllable, pronounced like the word "few".

The weakest will be on the second syllable.

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-18-2005, 04:19 AM
yaya invisible letter that no there in speling but are when say.

guess this bit odd question but guess everyone think(voice in head)in native language? because when read/right english need think what need say first in japanese then translate i no able just think first in english always need do japanese first. it change as get better?

sy-subrc
11-18-2005, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:


I think I'm correct and I hope Olaf will either confirm it or correct me.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I'm late. There's no need for any further corrections. Everything's explained in your and the following posts.

Maybe one suggestion:
We germans love our "Umlaute", those funny letters with the dots on top: Ӟ ¤ œ ü ¶ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Since they are missing on most keyboards in the world you could also use the form Ae ae Ue ue Oe oe - so it should be either 'genügend' or 'genuegend'. (BTW Spits and FW's are über or ueber - not uber http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

The pronunciation is totally different.
Although everyone would understand you, if you don't use umlaute, it's highly appreciated if a forreign speaker takes care of this minor detail.

Fritz, Thanks for your post concerning the future tense. Finally I understood (hopefully) when to use 'will' and when to use 'going to'.


Bye

Olaf

Sturm_Williger
11-18-2005, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
...guess this bit odd question but guess everyone think(voice in head)in native language? because when read/right english need think what need say first in japanese then translate i no able just think first in english always need do japanese first. it change as get better? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are eventually able to think in the new language.

Exposure to the language ( living with people speaking it ) will speed this up. Learning only from books, it will take MUCH longer.

Other things will also speed it up or slow it down eg. English is SVO as you say. If you're learning a language that is, SOV, it will take longer before your brain will think that way.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

PS : It's read and write, left and right. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sy-subrc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:


I think I'm correct and I hope Olaf will either confirm it or correct me.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I'm late. There's no need for any further corrections. Everything's explained in your and the following posts.

Maybe one suggestion:
We germans love our "Umlaute", those funny letters with the dots on top: Ӟ ¤ œ ü ¶ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Since they are missing on most keyboards in the world you could also use the form Ae ae Ue ue Oe oe - so it should be either 'genügend' or 'genuegend'. (BTW Spits and FW's are über or ueber - not uber http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

The pronunciation is totally different.
Although everyone would understand you, if you don't use umlaute, it's highly appreciated if a forreign speaker takes care of this minor detail.

Fritz, Thanks for your post concerning the future tense. Finally I understood (hopefully) when to use 'will' and when to use 'going to'.


Bye

Olaf </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx for the heads-up on the umlaut, I tend to forget it. The umlaut is not so hard to get used to. I'm having a harder time getting used to the "Merkel". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-18-2005, 06:07 AM
would Ӟ ¤ œ ü ¶ that no be in window charcter map?

Aero_Shodanjo
11-18-2005, 07:34 AM
Thanks for the reply old chaps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway im still lost at other terms that often used in english. Could anyone provide more examples and the explanations? I really like to learn more.

Great thread, once again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 07:40 AM
Hi Aero,

Can you give examples?

English has approximately 500,000 words and an almost equal amount of technical and non-technical terms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW, what's your native language?

Fritz

Aero_Shodanjo
11-18-2005, 08:03 AM
Err, something like "nitpick"? "nitpicking"?
and "blimey"? and some others... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Just checked two threads to find those words.

And Im Indonesian http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 08:16 AM
If someone is "nitpicking", it means they are complaining about little or unimportant details.

"Blimey" is Irish. I think it is the same as saying "****" in English when someone shoots you online.

Cool to have an Indonesian as part of the community. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 08:18 AM
Doh! I've been censored.

"****" is d a m n.

@ ubi forums http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Fritz

Aero_Shodanjo
11-18-2005, 08:22 AM
lol thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There were a few others but I dont see they post here anymore now

Anyway, there's one more - for today. But this time regarding what I posted in the skinners (skinners's?) forum.

"the vertical tail upper section's error"

or should I wrote:

"the vertical tail's upper section error"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Many thanks PJ

berg417448
11-18-2005, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
lol thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There were a few others but I dont see they post here anymore now

Anyway, there's one more - for today. But this time regarding what I posted in the skinners (skinners's?) forum.

"the vertical tail upper section's error"

or should I wrote:

"the vertical tail's upper section error"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Many thanks PJ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You could say "The error in the upper section of the vertical tail" and not deal with the apostrophe issue at all.

panther3485
11-18-2005, 08:41 AM
Quote:

Doh! I've been censored.

"****" is d a m n.

@ ubi forums

Fritz

That you could be censored for that, after some of the words I've seen being freely used here, seems incredible to me.

I don't know who works out what words are/are not 'acceptable', but I wouldn't send them out to mail a letter!!! (Anyone who has heard the corny old joke will know what I mean.)

OK, maybe it's the part of the World I live in and the way we use English, but this seems so out of whack with what anyone I know would consider to be offensive.


Best regards,
panther3485

Capt_Pepper
11-18-2005, 08:58 AM
Greetings Aero Shodanjo,

This is somewhat of an assumption on my part, but I'll give it a try.

Is the reader to assume you mean there is an error you wish to correct or point out on a particular part of the plane?

If so, what you've written (both sentences) are technically correct I believe and you've used the apostrophe in both of them properly. This sort of thing is always a bit tricky in English while the goal is to ensure the reader's comprehension of a particular detail. To help ensure greater clarification, you can avoid the situation completely by saying this another way.

Something like:

The error located on the upper section of the vertical tail.

It has the same meaning as what you've written, but it avoids the grammatical circumstance you find yourself in. Yet, it still directs the reader to the same place you want them to go. Do you see the difference?

Hope this helps.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-18-2005, 09:10 AM
Thanks for the lesson http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I dont know why I didnt think about another alternatives to write the sentences, instead of messing around with the aposthropes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

My English teacher back in high school will give me a D minus if she knows about this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

B16Enk
11-18-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"blimey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I grew up believing that was slang for 'Blind Me'...

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B16Enk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"blimey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I grew up believing that was slang for 'Blind Me'... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. I just looked it up. Seems that it is short for "blind me" which is short for "God blind me".

It originated from around 1885 to 1890. It's used to express surprise or excitement.

Fritz

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B16Enk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"blimey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I grew up believing that was slang for 'Blind Me'... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. I just looked it up. Seems that it is short for "blind me" which is short for "God blind me".

It originated from around 1885 to 1890. It's used to express surprise or excitement.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suddenly the heavily accented phrase "gul blimey!" makes a lot more sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One question I have though is, if it's Irish, why is it so often associated with the English. (specifically an accent from around London, and I can't, for the life of me, remember what it's called now. A real brain fart moment. - the one where they call people "guv'nah" a lot)

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 11:15 AM
Nakamura_Kenji, cool sig. Is that the Scottish flag in the background on the left? Where it the character from? I'm an Anime fan, but I don't recognize it.

Speaking of which, I have a question that I hope you will answer for me. Being a huge Anime geek (Otaku http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), I have taken a bit of an interest in Japanese. I've found that it seems to be easy to figure out how to pronounce things written in Romanji (very phonetic), but there is one combination that confuses me.

It seems that sometimes "ai" is 'ah-ee' and other times it's 'I'. (or am I totally wrong even in that much? lol) What is the rule for pronunciation of that combination?

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B16Enk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"blimey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I grew up believing that was slang for 'Blind Me'... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. I just looked it up. Seems that it is short for "blind me" which is short for "God blind me".

It originated from around 1885 to 1890. It's used to express surprise or excitement.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suddenly the heavily accented phrase "gul blimey!" makes a lot more sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One question I have though is, if it's Irish, why is it so often associated with the English. (specifically an accent from around London, and I can't, for the life of me, remember what it's called now. A real brain fart moment. - the one where they call people "guv'nah" a lot) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I'm wrong. My book simply says "British". I always thought it was Irish.

BTW, I've heard people in Nova Scotia say "Gul dang it!" Their English, apart from their accents, is very close to British English.

Fritz

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 11:46 AM
This is a cool thread BTW.

Speaking of language origins, I'd been taught in school that English and German share a common root, and that they are a different branch of the language tree than "Romance languages" (Latin, Italian, French, Spanish). We do have heavy latin and french influence (as well as a fair amount of Greek), but it would seem that it is still only influence, and not a base, right? Otherwise English would be a Romance Language too. I say that only because this thread seems to somewhat imply that English is based on a combination of Latin and French.


Not related to the above, just something cool I wanted to share - Talking to my, ex-gf, who's from the Ukraine, about English and German got me to thinking about the vocabulary similarities one day and I put together a small list -

English - German
Winter - Winter (v sound instead of w)
Wind - Wind (as above)
Finger - Finger (the g is slightly different)
Minute - Minute
Salad - Salat
Beer - Bier (pronounced the same)
Kindergarten - Kindergarten
I - Ich (German ch is my favorite sound. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I always think of "Aliens" and their hiss sound lol)
You - Du
She - Sie
Is - Ist
Chorus - Chor
Cross - Kreuz
High - Hoch
Book - Buch
Go - Gehen (might be a reach, but somehow seem similar to me)
Blue - Blau
Point - Punkt (seems amazingly close to punctuation too)
Fire - Feuer
Monday - Montag (Moon day)
Thursday - Donnorstag (Thor's day)
Friday - Freitag (Frigg's day or Freya's day. Seems to be speculation for both)
Four - Vier (did I spell that right? it's been too long)
Ten - Zehn
Blood - Blut

Kitchen and Coffee are also both German words I've been told. (but not sure how or why the K was changed for C on the latter)

Die (German) and The (when prounounced more like Thee, for stress - "are you 'thuh' one and only?" "Yes, I am 'thee' one and only.") are very similar too, though I know that Die is the feminine article, and Das and Der need to be taken with Die to not be incomplete. (and den and dem always confused the hell out of me. lol)

And of course many curses, or as my 12th grade English teacher called them - "good Anglo-Saxon words" lol

Like I said, a small list, I know there's a hell of a lot more too, I just can't think of them right now.

Pirsch - speaking of days of the week, why is Tuesday (Tyr (or Tiw)'s day), Dienstag. Does it mean the same thing, or, like Wednesday (Woden(Oden)'s day), something completely different (mittwoch - mid week) now?

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
This is a cool thread BTW.

Speaking of language origins, I'd been taught in school that English and German share a common root, and that they are a different branch of the language tree than "Romance languages" (Latin, Italian, French, Spanish). We do have heavy latin and french influence (as well as a fair amount of Greek), but it would seem that it is still only influence, and not a base, right? Otherwise English would be a Romance Language too. I say that only because this thread seems to somewhat imply that English is based on a combination of Latin and French.


Not related to the above, just something cool I wanted to share - Talking to my, ex-gf, who's from the Ukraine, about English and German got me to thinking about the vocabulary similarities one day and I put together a small list -

English - German
Winter - Winter (v sound instead of w)
Wind - Wind (as above)
Finger - Finger (the g is slightly different)
Minute - Minute
Salad - Salat
Beer - Bier (pronounced the same)
Kindergarten - Kindergarten
I - Ich (German ch is my favorite sound. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I always think of "Aliens" and their hiss sound lol)
You - Du
She - Sie
Is - Ist
Chorus - Chor
Cross - Kreuz
High - Hoch
Book - Buch
Go - Gehen (might be a reach, but somehow seem similar to me)
Blue - Blau
Point - Punkt (seems amazingly close to punctuation too)
Fire - Feuer
Monday - Montag (Moon day)
Thursday - Donnorstag (Thor's day)
Friday - Freitag (Frigg's day or Freya's day. Seems to be speculation for both)
Four - Vier (did I spell that right? it's been too long)
Ten - Zehn
Blood - Blut

Kitchen and Coffee are also both German words I've been told. (but not sure how or why the K was changed for C on the latter)

Die (German) and The (when prounounced more like Thee, for stress - "are you 'thuh' one and only?" "Yes, I am 'thee' one and only.") are very similar too, though I know that Die is the feminine article, and Das and Der need to be taken with Die to not be incomplete. (and den and dem always confused the hell out of me. lol)

And of course many curses, or as my 12th grade English teacher called them - "good Anglo-Saxon words" lol

Like I said, a small list, I know there's a hell of a lot more too, I just can't think of them right now.

Pirsch - speaking of days of the week, why is Tuesday (Tyr (or Tiw)'s day), Dienstag. Does it mean the same thing, or, like Wednesday (Woden(Oden)'s day), something completely different (mittwoch - mid week) now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The church changed them. Oden was the most important god to the Germanic people before Christianity.

The church wasn't able to change everything so they actually adapted to the old pagan dates and rituals. The Christmas tree, for example, is older than Christianity. Also, Jesus was born, IIRC, on January the 6th. Dec. 24 is the shortest day of the year and was the most important day to the pagans.

In Germany today you can still see so many symbols and decorations from the pagan days, especially in the villages. You often find people hang dried roots decorated with other natural dried vegetation (fruit, nuts, berries).

As for English and German, yes they have a common root. Also Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, Flemish, Swedish, and even Icelandic share these same roots.

As I mentioned and posted earlier in this thread, I can often find relations to modern German in the original Beowulf. It's very hard to find any relation to modern English.

Linguists say that if the Normans hadn't occupied Britain in the past, modern English would be very close to Dutch.

An interesting thing happened to me a few years ago. I was in a shopping street in Beijing with my Belgian friend. A young backpacker approached us to ask for directions. It turned out that he was Dutch and they started conversing in Dutch. At this time my German level was much lower. What amazed me was that this was the first time for me to hear Dutch language and I was able to understand the complete conversation. Later I was told that native English speakers with a knowledge of German can easily pick up Dutch.

Next year I will begin to study Dutch. Danish will follow and then Norwegian. I'm taking the easy way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 12:30 PM
Yeah, the Winter Solstice celebration, the Tannenbaum, and more are all pagan in origin. (The "easter bunny", fertility goddess Eostre was known to take the form of a rabbit (or something to that effect). Halloween. And more.)

Makes sense that they would change Wednesday then, but makes me curious why they didn't change Saturn's day, and Thor's day. Or even Moon day and Sun day. As those were both exceedingly important to pre-christians, the moon for hunter/gatherers and the sun (as well as the moon) for post hunter/gatherer societies (farmers).

Still though, what does dienstag mean?

Oh, and while I'm hijacking the thread (lol), I've heard both Jagr (not sure of spelling) and J¤ger (which I know to mean hunter or related). Are they 2 different words, or is it just a dialect or misunderstanding thing?

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B16Enk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"blimey" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I grew up believing that was slang for 'Blind Me'... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. I just looked it up. Seems that it is short for "blind me" which is short for "God blind me".

It originated from around 1885 to 1890. It's used to express surprise or excitement.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Suddenly the heavily accented phrase "gul blimey!" makes a lot more sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One question I have though is, if it's Irish, why is it so often associated with the English. (specifically an accent from around London, and I can't, for the life of me, remember what it's called now. A real brain fart moment. - the one where they call people "guv'nah" a lot) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I'm wrong. My book simply says "British". I always thought it was Irish.

BTW, I've heard people in Nova Scotia say "Gul dang it!" Their English, apart from their accents, is very close to British English.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may not be wrong, I was just wondering.

And Cockney was the name of the accent that I couldn't think of. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Still though, what does dienstag mean?

Oh, and while I'm hijacking the thread (lol), I've heard both Jagr (not sure of spelling) and J¤ger (which I know to mean hunter or related). Are they 2 different words, or is it just a dialect or misunderstanding thing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about Dienstag but the first thing that comes to mind is "dienen". This means "to serve" or "to give service". It's possible it has to do with Christian responsibilities. This of course is just an uneducated guess. Somehow I think MLudner might have the answer.

J¤ger means hunter and I always assumed Jagr was the same but I'm not sure.

Fritz

MLudner
11-18-2005, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
I have always considered the Canadians closer to Europeans than to Americans, with some exception for those in western Canada. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought of this also.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Pirschjager.

I was confused by the "end" ending you added, but I have looked it up. My Webster's New World German Dictionary shows two variations:

Genug
Genugend

Genug is adjectival, Genugend is both an adjective and an adverb. You are saying the adverbial use would be more correct I gather.

( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You know what the Old English for "enough" is?
Genoh!
I just remembered this, BTW)

Are you sure? My thinking is that it's a noun or adjective in this case, as it refers to "German".

If it is incorrect, then the author would be pleased, BTW. He was hoping a German would not say it that way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be more certain, I just called a friend from Mannheim. He confirmed that I was correct, but then again, it could be Mannheimisch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

He also said the example you gave sounded like Americanisch-Deutsch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfect.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
Thank you so very much. Should I have another run-in with Mr. AETIVS I shall let him know.

Deustch dialectics can be every bit as consternating as English!

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 12:51 PM
IIRC, Saturday came from the Romans. As for the other days that were never changed, it's possible that the Church was being sacrificial to keep the peace.

I'm sure you've seen Thor's hammer? This is older than Christianity and through time the design has changed. In the beginning it looked more like an upside-down "T". Once Christianity arrived and was accepted by a few kings, the design changed to and upside-down cross. In those times the Church didn't mind since they assumed the Barbarians were to foolish to know their crosses were upside-down. Of course, over time the Church figured it out and proclaimed it evil.

So today, when anti-Christians or Satan worshippers wear a Christian cross upside-down, they don't realize it originally represented the pagan's reluctance to give up their old gods.

Pre-Christian Thor's Hammer;

http://haymancelticjewelry.com/images/large_pendants/lg-Thors-Hammer.jpg

Post-Christian

http://www.mwart.com/images/p/Jewelry_Gargoyle_Thors_Hammer_M200346_1697.jpg

I wear the second design. Mine is almost identical.

Fritz

MLudner
11-18-2005, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
I can't believe I read an 8-page thread on "English Usage," and I never encountered a lesson on the homophones "there," "they're," and "their." Perhaps someone else can give a primer on these. It is very annoying to see native English speakers continually use these words interchangeably. Which brings me to my next point. Why do so many native English speakers use adverbs incorrect? (pun intended) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Indeed, they are commonly used interchangeably, when they are not.

"There" is an adverb indicating place or position.

Example: "They fled there, to those woods."
"He is in there."
"They are over there."

"They're" is a contraction of the third person, plural verb phrase They are.

Example: "They're not in the woods anymore."
"They're in there now."
"And they're also over there, as well."

"Their" is is the Third Person plural, possessive pronoun.

Example: "Their lines broke under our assault."
"Their survivors are hiding in the woods, over there."
"Their commander has been slain in the fighting just over there; they're on the run."

They all sound just the same and that is why they are miswritten so often.

MLudner
11-18-2005, 01:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
If someone is "nitpicking", it means they are complaining about little or unimportant details.

"Blimey" is Irish. I think it is the same as saying "****" in English when someone shoots you online.

Cool to have an Indonesian as part of the community. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Blimey is Limey http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
(Just kidding! No offense meant, intended or implied http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Unknown-Pilot
11-18-2005, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
I can't believe I read an 8-page thread on "English Usage," and I never encountered a lesson on the homophones "there," "they're," and "their." Perhaps someone else can give a primer on these. It is very annoying to see native English speakers continually use these words interchangeably. Which brings me to my next point. Why do so many native English speakers use adverbs incorrect? (pun intended) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Indeed, they are commonly used interchangeably, when they are not.

"There" is an adverb indicating place or position.

Example: "They fled there, to those woods."
"He is in there."
"They are over there."

"They're" is a contraction of the third person, plural verb phrase They are.

Example: "They're not in the woods anymore."
"They're in there now."
"And they're also over there, as well."

"Their" is is the Third Person plural, possessive pronoun.

Example: "Their lines broke under our assault."
"Their survivors are hiding in the woods, over there."
"Their commander has been slain in the fighting just over there; they're on the run."

They all sound just the same and that is why they are miswritten so often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This reminds me of a pet peeve on fora (plural for forum? lol) - "of" in place of "'ve". For example, typing "should of" rather than "should've". It's not even an honest typo or internet shortcut.

And I'm talking about native speakers. Makes one wonder just what kind of schools they went to.

For the non-native speakers, we love contractions - combining words and dropping a letter (or two) in the process. It makes it faster to say, and (often) to type.

Should (would/could) have, when spoken quickly, the have becomes more like "uv", and it's now an official part of the language as "should've" (would've, could've).

Other contractions are dropping the 'o' in not and sliding it over to the preceeding word. I am not suore how this one came about as "Can't" doesn't sound like a slurring of can not. But don't, can't, won't (even more odd as it's "will not"), didn't, and isn't are all examples. (another is I'm - I am. But this one you could see happening during speech)

MLudner
11-18-2005, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
lol thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There were a few others but I dont see they post here anymore now

Anyway, there's one more - for today. But this time regarding what I posted in the skinners (skinners's?) forum.

"the vertical tail upper section's error"

or should I wrote:

"the vertical tail's upper section error"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Many thanks PJ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eep! That would matter on what you meant.

Was it the error of the vertical tail upper section as a whole, or of the upper section of the vertical tail alone?

Berg's suggestion is probably the best; much easier way of handling this. Either could be right. The question is more complicated than you thought, I think.

I would go with the first as I think you were describing the vertical tail upper surface as a whole, rather than the upper surface of the vertical tail separate from the upper surface.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Just do what Berg said!

MLudner
11-18-2005, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
This is a cool thread BTW.

Speaking of language origins, I'd been taught in school that English and German share a common root, and that they are a different branch of the language tree than "Romance languages" (Latin, Italian, French, Spanish). We do have heavy latin and french influence (as well as a fair amount of Greek), but it would seem that it is still only influence, and not a base, right? Otherwise English would be a Romance Language too. I say that only because this thread seems to somewhat imply that English is based on a combination of Latin and French.


Not related to the above, just something cool I wanted to share - Talking to my, ex-gf, who's from the Ukraine, about English and German got me to thinking about the vocabulary similarities one day and I put together a small list -

English - German
Winter - Winter (v sound instead of w)
Wind - Wind (as above)
Finger - Finger (the g is slightly different)
Minute - Minute
Salad - Salat
Beer - Bier (pronounced the same)
Kindergarten - Kindergarten
I - Ich (German ch is my favorite sound. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I always think of "Aliens" and their hiss sound lol)
You - Du
She - Sie
Is - Ist
Chorus - Chor
Cross - Kreuz
High - Hoch
Book - Buch
Go - Gehen (might be a reach, but somehow seem similar to me)
Blue - Blau
Point - Punkt (seems amazingly close to punctuation too)
Fire - Feuer
Monday - Montag (Moon day)
Thursday - Donnorstag (Thor's day)
Friday - Freitag (Frigg's day or Freya's day. Seems to be speculation for both)
Four - Vier (did I spell that right? it's been too long)
Ten - Zehn
Blood - Blut

Kitchen and Coffee are also both German words I've been told. (but not sure how or why the K was changed for C on the latter)

Die (German) and The (when prounounced more like Thee, for stress - "are you 'thuh' one and only?" "Yes, I am 'thee' one and only.") are very similar too, though I know that Die is the feminine article, and Das and Der need to be taken with Die to not be incomplete. (and den and dem always confused the hell out of me. lol)

And of course many curses, or as my 12th grade English teacher called them - "good Anglo-Saxon words" lol

Like I said, a small list, I know there's a hell of a lot more too, I just can't think of them right now.

Pirsch - speaking of days of the week, why is Tuesday (Tyr (or Tiw)'s day), Dienstag. Does it mean the same thing, or, like Wednesday (Woden(Oden)'s day), something completely different (mittwoch - mid week) now? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

English is a German dialect. When translating things into Old English for stories on my fantasy world where Thansarenisc languages are derived from Old English I have to use my German Dictionaries in conjunction with my Webster's and my Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary. Most annoyingly, that dictionary only goes Old English-Modern English making it difficult to translate words from modern English into Old English so that I can generate the appropriate Thansarenisc word based on whatever dialect or language the character in question is using.
For example: How would you say "Hour" in Old English?
Hour derives from French via Latin: HORA. Look up any word beginning with H in the Anglo-Saxon Dictionary and you will not find any word for Hour.
In German hour is "stunde".
Look up that in the Anglo-Saxon Dictionary:
Stund. This is the word for hour in original English.
1-10 in each language:
An - Eins
Twa - Zwei
Thrie - Drei
Feower - Vier
Fife - Funf
Seax - Sechs
Seofan - Sieben
Eaghta - Oct
Nigon - Neun
Tien - Zehn

Genoh = genug / genugend (Enough in modern English)

Modern English has had numerous influences from Latin, French, and Hellenikos (Greek: from the Latin GRAECVS, greye-koos) from numerous sources and reasons to include Church influence but not from that alone. Fashion played a big role, for the educated used Latin, French and Hellenikos and from that fact many Latin words came into English use after some modification.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
11-18-2005, 04:56 PM
This is abit off the topic, but whilst chatting to a delivery girl today about the poor quality of a Rover bumper - she asked me if they were any better before they went "Tit's up" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Just where does this come from... And how does it relate to tits being up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

BaldieJr
11-18-2005, 05:05 PM
tits up. toes up. flat on thier backs. dead.

JRJacobs
11-18-2005, 07:11 PM
how about "a" and "an"
"an" is used when the following word begins with a vowel "SOUND"

i.e.
He had an apple.
What an idiot!
but here's where it gets weird it's true for words that SOUND like they're begining with a vowel, such as...
It was an honest (ahn-nest) mistake

MLudner
11-18-2005, 08:07 PM
An should precede any word beginning with H followed by a vowel (Which will always be the case in modern English, but not in Old English where H sometimes preceded R: Hraefn, for example) as H actually represents an aspiration more than a sound.

Pirschjaeger
11-18-2005, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
This is abit off the topic, but whilst chatting to a delivery girl today about the poor quality of a Rover bumper - she asked me if they were any better before they went "Tit's up" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Just where does this come from... And how does it relate to tits being up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Tits up" means bankrupt when speaking of a company or business.

Fritz

Fritz

panther3485
11-19-2005, 10:17 AM
Haven't heard 'tits up' too often but have heard 'belly up' quite frequently. Assume they mean the same. Companies going bust are sometimes referred to here as going 'belly up'.

A fairly common expression in Australia is '**** over tit' (sometimes shortened to '**** over'), meaning to fall/tumble in spectacular fashion, as you might if you fell off your bicycle or if you were running and got tripped by someone.

Examples:

"You should've seen it; the silly bastard went **** over tit !"

"I must've had a few beers too many, cos I went **** over down those bloody stairs!"


Best regards,
panther3485

panther3485
11-19-2005, 10:19 AM
That was meant to be a r s e over tit or a r s e over .

Looks like it was my turn to get censored this time!

panther3485

Capt.England
11-19-2005, 10:50 AM
21st of December is the shortest day. Thats why the 21st of June (6 months later!) is the longest day.

This is in England, BTW.

Dunkelgrun
11-19-2005, 12:43 PM
Back to 'blimey'.
It is indeed from 'God blind me', but the full slang, as written here, is not 'gul blimey' but 'Gor'blimey'.

'Guv'nor' or 'guv' is a corruption of 'governor', which is London slang for a boss. It seems to be compulsory to use it in any TV programme that stars Dennis Waterman.

My pet hate: people writing 'would/should of' instead of 'would/should have'. It stems from poor pronounciation by native English speakers. It probably started with the dropped 'h'; ' 'E shouldn't 'ave done it', which is condensed to 'shouldn't've' which can sound like 'shouldn't of' and thus it gets written.
It's comprehensible (although not good English) when spoken, but absolute nonsense when written.

Cheers!

Unknown-Pilot
11-19-2005, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
My pet hate: people writing 'would/should of' instead of 'would/should have'. It stems from poor pronounciation by native English speakers. It probably started with the dropped 'h'; ' 'E shouldn't 'ave done it', which is condensed to 'shouldn't've' which can sound like 'shouldn't of' and thus it gets written.
It's comprehensible (although not good English) when spoken, but absolute nonsense when written. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there an echo in here or something?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Dunkelgrun
11-19-2005, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
My pet hate: people writing 'would/should of' instead of 'would/should have'. It stems from poor pronounciation by native English speakers. It probably started with the dropped 'h'; ' 'E shouldn't 'ave done it', which is condensed to 'shouldn't've' which can sound like 'shouldn't of' and thus it gets written.
It's comprehensible (although not good English) when spoken, but absolute nonsense when written. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there an echo in here or something?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly an echo as I started my diatribe from a different viewpoint. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers!

nakamura_kenji
11-19-2005, 03:52 PM
tits up scottish phrase think friend use lot

unknown_pilot manga character see manga version me ^_^

orignal quick sketch handdraw------------------------------photoshop magic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/File085.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/shinsengumi.jpg

Pirschjaeger
11-19-2005, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
My pet hate: people writing 'would/should of' instead of 'would/should have'. It stems from poor pronounciation by native English speakers. It probably started with the dropped 'h'; ' 'E shouldn't 'ave done it', which is condensed to 'shouldn't've' which can sound like 'shouldn't of' and thus it gets written.
It's comprehensible (although not good English) when spoken, but absolute nonsense when written.

Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is also one of my pet peeves. This is actually taught in Cambridge's "New Interchange". I couldn't believe it at first but then compare "New Interchange" to Oxford's "New Headway" and you'll see totally different levels. Regarding ESL material, some of Cambridge's publications are ok but they are far from reaching Oxford's level and consistency.

Fritz

Chuck_Older
11-19-2005, 06:04 PM
English is stupid. Take the word, "Had" for example

I once ate something. That means that once I had it. When I say that now, I say I had had it. If that thing that I once ate was haddock, I say I had had haddock. Stupid. You can also say "do do" and be correct. Someone asks if you do something for work, you say you don't do that. Thay can say, "Well, what is it that you do do?". Makes me want to strangle a dolphin, or maybe a harp seal. A baby one. The only thing I like about English is that it's so b*stardised that I can use language as an impediment to learning now.

It's amazing that anyone communicates with this idiotic language. Now German, I like. I need to study it. They don't ask, they tell. I appreciate that.

Pirschjaeger
11-19-2005, 07:38 PM
Ha ha ha, Chuck, that's funny.

But I must point out that "had" is necessary. In your example, "had had", although the words sound similar, but not the same, they have different meanings.

The first "had" is an auxilary verb and the second "had" is a past participle. I must point out that your sentence is missing the second part.

"I had had hoddock before I tried cod."
"Before I had the cod, I had had the hoddock."

These are gramatically correct.

This is Past Perfect: use when talking about an action that happened before a past action.

So, simply said, it is used for two things that happened in the past at different times. I always found this one interesting because native speakers have such a hard time with it, but in fact it is really easy to use.

First, we must look at the term and what it really means.

Past Perfect
Past = before now/present, just as it seems.
Perfect = before past

Perfect, in this case, does not mean "finished" or "very good" as many like to teach. This is a myth.

Imagine this:

6:00 Chuck's alarm clock wakes him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
6:15 Chuck brushes his teeth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
6:25 Chuck eats his breakfast. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif
6:45 Chuck reads the morning paper. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
7:15 Chuck leaves for work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Chuck had woken before he brushed his teeth.
Before Chuck brushed his teeth, he had woken.

Chuck had brushed his teeth before he ate breakfast.
Before Chuck ate breakfast, he had brushed his teeth.

Chuck had eaten breakfast before he read the morning paper.
Before he read the morning paper, Chuck had eaten breakfast.

Chuck had read the morning paper before he left for work.
Before he left for work, Chuck had read the morning paper.

Each sentence expresses two things that happened in the past at different times. Also note I used "before" in every sentence. This is what "perfect" means in the term "past perfect".

"Perfect" means before. Before what? Before past.

To make the "perfect" you need two things. First, you need the Past Participle. The past participle(pp) is a verb form. Here are some examples:

Past Participle.............Past............present

had done...................did...............doing
had gone...................went.............going
had brushed...............brushed.........brushing
had read....................read.............reading
had eaten..................ate...............eating
had seen....................saw..............seeing

Noticed that each PP has "had" infront of it. This is your auxilary/helper verb. We need this to help identify the difference in time between the two actions.

Another important point woult be doubled words in English. Examples:

do do
had had
what what
that that

These doubled words do not have the same meaning or even the same sounds.

do do = the second "do" is stressed

had had, what what, that that = the stress is on the first.

BTW, in regards to past and past perfect, German is complicated since Germans use past perfect when speaking of the past. But generally, German grammar is like algebra, once you know the rules, it's easy.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-19-2005, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You can also say "do do" and be correct. Someone asks if you do something for work, you say you don't do that. Thay can say, "Well, what is it that you do do?". Makes me want to strangle a dolphin, or maybe a harp seal. A baby one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Well, what is it that you do do?"

This, IMHO, would be acceptable but very poor English. I'd call it "slanglish".

"Well, what do you do exactly?"

This is better in the context of the example conversation.

BTW, I've never spoken to a dolphin or harp seal. Is their English really that bad? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Chuck_Older
11-19-2005, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ha ha ha, Chuck, that's funny.

But I must point out that "had" is necessary. In your example, "had had", although the words sound similar, but not the same, they have different meanings.

The first "had" is an auxilary verb and the second "had" is a past participle. I must point out that your sentence is missing the second part.

"I had had hoddock before I tried cod."
"Before I had the cod, I had had the hoddock."

These are gramatically correct.

This is Past Perfect: use when talking about an action that happened before a past action.

So, simply said, it is used for two things that happened in the past at different times. I always found this one interesting because native speakers have such a hard time with it, but in fact it is really easy to use.

First, we must look at the term and what it really means.

Past Perfect
Past = before now/present, just as it seems.
Perfect = before past

Perfect, in this case, does not mean "finished" or "very good" as many like to teach. This is a myth.

Imagine this:

6:00 Chuck's alarm clock wakes him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
6:15 Chuck brushes his teeth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
6:25 Chuck eats his breakfast. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif
6:45 Chuck reads the morning paper. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
7:15 Chuck leaves for work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Chuck had woken before he brushed his teeth.
Before Chuck brushed his teeth, he had woken.

Chuck had brushed his teeth before he ate breakfast.
Before Chuck ate breakfast, he had brushed his teeth.

Chuck had eaten breakfast before he read the morning paper.
Before he read the morning paper, Chuck had eaten breakfast.

Chuck had read the morning paper before he left for work.
Before he left for work, Chuck had read the morning paper.

Each sentence expresses two things that happened in the past at different times. Also note I used "before" in every sentence. This is what "perfect" means in the term "past perfect".

"Perfect" means before. Before what? Before past.

To make the "perfect" you need two things. First, you need the Past Participle. The past participle(pp) is a verb form. Here are some examples:

Past Participle.............Past............present

had done...................did...............doing
had gone...................went.............going
had brushed...............brushed.........brushing
had read....................read.............reading
had eaten..................ate...............eating
had seen....................saw..............seeing

Noticed that each PP has "had" infront of it. This is your auxilary/helper verb. We need this to help identify the difference in time between the two actions.

Another important point woult be doubled words in English. Examples:

do do
had had
what what
that that

These doubled words do not have the same meaning or even the same sounds.

do do = the second "do" is stressed

had had, what what, that that = the stress is on the first.

BTW, in regards to past and past perfect, German is complicated since Germans use past perfect when speaking of the past. But generally, German grammar is like algebra, once you know the rules, it's easy.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may want to consider analyzing jokes at a slightly less intensive level

Pirschjaeger
11-19-2005, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You may want to consider analyzing jokes at a slightly less intensive level </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it or not, that explanation was already planned for this thread and the timing was perfect. I believe these explanations are helpful to the ESL students. You simply set the stage.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I was laughing at the dolphin/harp seal thing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-20-2005, 01:51 AM
Well an interesting thread this one, and given that I am currently trying to 'get my head around' (read as 'learn' ) Norsk I can sympathise some what with folks trying to get by in a foreign Language.

Any how I noticed a while back that Kenji Sama (corect honourific?) mentioned that he had trouble with Shakespear? Well given Kenji is part Scots, and as the subject of dialect has come up I wonder if many of you have ever had the pleasure of reading any Robert Burns?

It is an interesting experiance to be sure, and as a taster I provide you with one of my personal favourite's to get your 'laughing gear' (read as 'mouth') around......

"Of Brownyis and of Bogillis full is this Buke."
Gawin Douglas.

When chapman billies leave the street,
And drouthy neibors, neibors, meet;
As market days are wearing late,
And folk begin to tak the gate,
While we sit bousing at the nappy,
An' getting fou and unco happy,
We think na on the lang Scots miles,
The mosses, waters, slaps and stiles,
That lie between us and our hame,
Where sits our sulky, sullen dame,
Gathering her brows like gathering storm,
Nursing her wrath to keep it warm.

This truth fand honest Tam o' Shanter,
As he frae Ayr ae night did canter:
(Auld Ayr, wham ne'er a town surpasses,
For honest men and bonie lasses).

O Tam! had'st thou but been sae wise,
As taen thy ain wife Kate's advice!
She tauld thee weel thou was a skellum,
A blethering, blustering, drunken blellum;
That frae November till October,
Ae market-day thou was na sober;
That ilka melder wi' the Miller,
Thou sat as lang as thou had siller;
That ev'ry naig was ca'd a shoe on
The Smith and thee gat roarin' fou on;
That at the Lord's house, ev'n on Sunday,
Thou drank wi' Kirkton Jean till Monday,
She prophesied that late or soon,
Thou wad be found, deep drown'd in Doon,
Or catch'd wi' warlocks in the mirk,
By Alloway's auld, haunted kirk.

Ah, gentle dames! it gars me greet,
To think how mony counsels sweet,
How mony lengthen'd, sage advices,
The husband frae the wife despises!

But to our tale: Ae market night,
Tam had got planted unco right,
Fast by an ingle, bleezing finely,
Wi reaming sAats, that drank divinely;
And at his elbow, Souter Johnie,
His ancient, trusty, drougthy crony:
Tam lo'ed him like a very brither;
They had been fou for weeks thegither.
The night drave on wi' sangs an' clatter;
And aye the ale was growing better:
The Landlady and Tam grew gracious,
Wi' favours secret, sweet, and precious:
The Souter tauld his queerest stories;
The Landlord's laugh was ready chorus:
The storm without might rair and rustle,
Tam did na mind the storm a whistle.

Care, mad to see a man sae happy,
E'en drown'd himsel amang the nappy.
As bees flee hame wi' lades o' treasure,
The minutes wing'd their way wi' pleasure:
Kings may be blest, but Tam was glorious,
O'er a' the ills o' life victorious!

But pleasures are like poppies spread,
You seize the flow'r, its bloom is shed;
Or like the snow falls in the river,
A moment white-then melts for ever;
Or like the Borealis race,
That flit ere you can point their place;
Or like the Rainbow's lovely form
Evanishing amid the storm. -
Nae man can tether Time nor Tide,
The hour approaches Tam maun ride;
That hour, o' night's black arch the key-stane,
That dreary hour he mounts his beast in;
And sic a night he taks the road in,
As ne'er poor sinner was abroad in.

The wind blew as 'twad blawn its last;
The rattling showers rose on the blast;
The speedy gleams the darkness swallow'd;
Loud, deep, and lang, the thunder bellow'd:
That night, a child might understand,
The deil had business on his hand.

Weel-mounted on his grey mare, Meg,
A better never lifted leg,
Tam skelpit on thro' dub and mire,
Despising wind, and rain, and fire;
Whiles holding fast his gude blue bonnet,
Whiles crooning o'er some auld Scots sonnet,
Whiles glow'rin round wi' prudent cares,
Lest bogles catch him unawares;
Kirk-Alloway was drawing nigh,
Where ghaists and houlets nightly cry.

By this time he was cross the ford,
Where in the snaw the chapman smoor'd;
And past the birks and meikle stane,
Where drunken Charlie brak's neck-bane;
And thro' the whins, and by the cairn,
Where hunters fand the murder'd bairn;
And near the thorn, aboon the well,
Where Mungo's mither hang'd hersel'.
Before him Doon pours all his floods,
The doubling storm roars thro' the woods,
The lightnings flash from pole to pole,
Near and more near the thunders roll,
When, glimmering thro' the groaning trees,
Kirk-Alloway seem'd in a bleeze,
Thro' ilka bore the beams were glancing,
And loud resounded mirth and dancing.

Inspiring bold John Barleycorn!
What dangers thou canst make us scorn!
Wi' tippenny, we fear nae evil;
Wi' usquabae, we'll face the devil!
The swats sae ream'd in Tammie's noddle,
Fair play, he car'd na deils a boddle,
But Maggie stood, right sair astonish'd,
Till, by the heel and hand admonish'd,
She ventur'd forward on the light;
And, wow! Tam saw an unco sight!

Warlocks and witches in a dance:
Nae cotillon, brent new frae France,
But hornpipes, jigs, strathspeys, and reels,
Put life and mettle in their heels.
A winnock-bunker in the east,
There sat auld Nick, in shape o' beast;
A towzie tyke, black, grim, and large,
To gie them music was his charge:
He screw'd the pipes and gart them skirl,
Till roof and rafters a' did dirl. -
Coffins stood round, like open presses,
That shaw'd the Dead in their last dresses;
And (by some devilish cantraip sleight)
Each in its cauld hand held a light.
By which heroic Tam was able
To note upon the haly table,
A murderer's banes, in gibbet-airns;
Twa span-lang, wee, unchristened bairns;
A thief, new-cutted frae a rape,
Wi' his last gasp his gabudid gape;
Five tomahawks, wi' blude red-rusted:
Five scimitars, wi' murder crusted;
A garter which a babe had strangled:
A knife, a father's throat had mangled.
Whom his ain son of life bereft,
The grey-hairs yet stack to the heft;
Wi' mair of horrible and awfu',
Which even to name wad be unlawfu'.
Three lawyers tongues, turned inside oot,
Wi' lies, seamed like a beggars clout,
Three priests hearts, rotten, black as muck,
Lay stinkin, vile in every neuk.

As Tammie glowr'd, amaz'd, and curious,
The mirth and fun grew fast and furious;
The Piper loud and louder blew,
The dancers quick and quicker flew,
The reel'd, they set, they cross'd, they cleekit,
Till ilka carlin swat and reekit,
And coost her duddies to the wark,
And linkit at it in her sark!

Now Tam, O Tam! had they been queans,
A' plump and strapping in their teens!
Their sarks, instead o' creeshie flainen,
Been snaw-white seventeen hunder linen!-
Thir breeks o' mine, my only pair,
That ance were plush o' guid blue hair,
I wad hae gien them off my hurdies,
For ae blink o' the bonie burdies!
But wither'd beldams, auld and droll,
Rigwoodie hags wad spean a foal,
Louping an' flinging on a crummock.
I wonder did na turn thy stomach.

But Tam kent what was what fu' brawlie:
There was ae winsome wench and waulie
That night enlisted in the core,
Lang after ken'd on Carrick shore;
(For mony a beast to dead she shot,
And perish'd mony a bonie boat,
And shook baith meikle corn and bear,
And kept the country-side in fear);
Her cutty sark, o' Paisley harn,
That while a lassie she had worn,
In longitude tho' sorely scanty,
It was her best, and she was vauntie.
Ah! little ken'd thy reverend grannie,
That sark she coft for her wee Nannie,
Wi twa pund Scots ('twas a' her riches),
Wad ever grac'd a dance of witches!

But here my Muse her wing maun cour,
Sic flights are far beyond her power;
To sing how Nannie lap and flang,
(A souple jade she was and strang),
And how Tam stood, like ane bewithc'd,
And thought his very een enrich'd:
Even Satan glowr'd, and fidg'd fu' fain,
And hotch'd and blew wi' might and main:
Till first ae caper, syne anither,
Tam tint his reason a thegither,
And roars out, "Weel done, Cutty-sark!"
And in an instant all was dark:
And scarcely had he Maggie rallied.
When out the hellish legion sallied.

As bees bizz out wi' angry fyke,
When plundering herds assail their byke;
As open pussie's mortal foes,
When, pop! she starts before their nose;
As eager runs the market-crowd,
When "Catch the thief!" resounds aloud;
So Maggie runs, the witches follow,
Wi' mony an eldritch skreich and hollow.

Ah, Tam! Ah, Tam! thou'll get thy fairin!
In hell, they'll roast thee like a herrin!
In vain thy Kate awaits thy comin!
Kate soon will be a woefu' woman!
Now, do thy speedy-utmost, Meg,
And win the key-stone o' the brig;^1
There, at them thou thy tail may toss,
A running stream they dare na cross.
But ere the keystane she could make,
The fient a tail she had to shake!
For Nannie, far before the rest,
Hard upon noble Maggie prest,
And flew at Tam wi' furious ettle;
But little wist she Maggie's mettle!
Ae spring brought off her master hale,
But left behind her ain grey tail:
The carlin claught her by the rump,
And left poor Maggie scarce a stump.

Now, wha this tale o' truth shall read,
Ilk man and mother's son, take heed:
Whene'er to Drink you are inclin'd,
Or Cutty-sarks rin in your mind,
Think ye may buy the joys o'er dear;
Remember Tam o' Shanter's mare.

More can be found here along with translation's of some of the more difficult words

http://www.robertburns.org/

panther3485
11-20-2005, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:

quote:
Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
My pet hate: people writing 'would/should of' instead of 'would/should have'. It stems from poor pronounciation by native English speakers. It probably started with the dropped 'h'; ' 'E shouldn't 'ave done it', which is condensed to 'shouldn't've' which can sound like 'shouldn't of' and thus it gets written.
It's comprehensible (although not good English) when spoken, but absolute nonsense when written.

Is there an echo in here or something?

There could easily be a great number of echoes, because this is a pet hate of mine as well! In my opinion, it involves not only bad pronunciation but also rather dubious understanding/skills in reading and/or writing.

Having read, properly understood and written 'should have' or even 'should've', how could a person say 'should of'? (Never mind write it!)

On the subject of 'pet hates' or 'pet peeves', I've got a good number but for now I'll add just one more.

'for free'

I'm not too sure about the US or elsewhere, but it's definitely not right here. The trouble, as with many such things, is that it has now come into such common use, it is almost as if it has become 'correct'.

Only a few days ago, a young man came to my door trying to sell me a car maintenance/service package. Part of his sales pitch went like this:

"...and Sir, if you book with us before the end of this month, you get your first service for free !"

At that precise moment, he had lost both my attention and my potential business.

If he had said, "you get your first service free of charge" or "you get your first service free" or even "you get your first service for nothing", he might have kept my attention.

Goods and services can be 'free', 'free of charge', 'complimentary', 'for nothing' or, if there is a charge, 'for (X amount/dollars)'.
They are never 'for free'.

Mind you, from the rest of the spiel this guy was giving me, the offer didn't sound that good anyway. [Don't think I'd throw away a really good deal on a point of English! I'm concerned but I'm not that fanatical!]

Nearly all the time, when I hear or read this kind of nonsense I just let it go. After all, there's a constant stream of it. Every once in a while, I'll bite. I guess this time, it was really all about temptation. I hear and read evidence of bad English which, to my perception, appears to be on the increase. (Perhaps it isn't but that's just the way it seems to me.) My subjective impression is that there seems to be less emphasis on correct spelling and good grammar these days and if so, there's not a lot I can do. Presented with the opportunity to strike a 'small blow', I couldn't resist it!

I make the occasional stand, if you like, but most of the time it just washes over me, 'in one ear and out the other' and that, perhaps, is as it should be. Nobody wants a 'Grammar Nazi' and that's why this thread struck me as a good idea. People can get help if they ask for it .


Best regards to all,
panther3485

P.S. Really had to restrain myself when you guys were talking about 'couple'. Note that the alternate meaning offered in the Oxford dictionary is Informal . Say no more for now.

Dunkelgrun
11-20-2005, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panther3485:
...it involves not only bad pronunciation ...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
Noted. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Cheers!

Monty_Thrud
11-20-2005, 04:39 AM
This word is quite popular here in Blighty and elsewhere, so i've heard, hope this doesnt offend...

Perhaps one of the most interesting words in the English language today, is the word ****. Of all the English words beginning with f, **** is the single one referred to as the "f-word". It's the one magical word. Just by it's sound it can describe pain, pleasure, hate and love. ****, as most of the other words in English, has arrived from Germany. **** from German's "fliechen" which mean to strike. In English, **** folds into many grammatical categories. As a transital verb for instance, "John ****ed Shirley". As an intransitive verb; "Shirley ****s". It's meaning is not always sexual, it can be used as an adjective such as; John's doing all the ****ing work. As part of an adverb; "Shirley talks too ****ing much", as an adverb enhancing an adjective; Shirley is ****ing beautiful. As a noun; "I don't give a ****". As part of a word: "abso-****ing-lutely" or "in-****ing-credible". Or as almost every word in a sentence: "**** the ****ing ****ers!". As you must realize, there aren't many words with the versitility such as the word ****,as in these examples used as the following words;
- fraud: "I got ****ed"
- trouble: "I guess I'm really ****ed now"
- dismay: "Oh, **** it!"
- aggresion: "don't **** with me, buddy!"
- difficulty: "I don't understand this ****ing question"
- inquery: "who the **** was that?"
- dissatisfaction: "I don't like what the **** is going on here"
- incompetence: "he's a ****-off!"
- dismissal: "why don't you go outside and **** yourself?"

I'm sure you can think of many more examples.
With all these multipurpoused applications, how can anyone be offended when you use the word?
Use this unique, flexibel word more often in your daily speech. It will identify the quality of your character immediately. Say it loudly and proudly:


http://premium1.uploadit.org/bsamania//montypythonmybrain1.jpg

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-20-2005, 06:14 AM
****!!Thats exacta-****ing-lutely what I ****-ing do mate all the ****-ing time and I get ****-ed for it all the ****-ing time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My mother ****-ing hits me for it too ....owww

nakamura_kenji
11-20-2005, 04:57 PM
hehe that funny ^_^

balrog please no use sama honourific for me i no deserve sama. want use honourific use san or kun(if much older than me)

BaldieJr
11-20-2005, 05:20 PM
Hey, can I use your guyses phone for a sec?

neural_dream
11-20-2005, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Hey, can I use your guyses phone for a sec? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, get in
http://www.stmarys-ca.edu/75/phonebooth.jpg

nakamura_kenji
11-21-2005, 03:32 AM
have question word dam-n it no short version word dam-nation so why people find not nice?

it no got sex thing like f word, poo thing like c word i find odd

sy-subrc
11-21-2005, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
This word is quite popular here in Blighty and elsewhere, so i've heard, hope this doesnt offend...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good one... here's a mp3 version: Usage_of_the_word_f (http://www.handshake.de/user/o.baltes/div/Uses_of_the_Word_F.mp3).

Unknown-Pilot
11-21-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
have question word dam-n it no short version word dam-nation so why people find not nice?

it no got sex thing like f word, poo thing like c word i find odd </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not totally certain about "damn", but IIRC, it's another Anglo-Saxon word like s#!t.

It's not about the meaning of the word, if it were, then why would synonyms be accepted?

All those words are called "vulgar". Almost everyone thinks it means 'bad', which in a sense it does, but what most people (native speakers) don't realize is that it actually means "common", as in commoner, as in peasant. I think it was Pirsch (or someone) who mentioned earlier in this thread that we got a lot of french words added to our vocabulary for things we already had other words for when the Norman's took over England.

Now of course, "nobility" would never dream of doing anything that peasants do, even down to vocabulary. So clearly they wouldn't use "vulgar" words.

I suspect that as the middle class grew, it wanted to be more like the so-called nobility (upper class) and went so far as to emulate them as much as possible. This in turn was propogated to their offspring (generational progamming), and soon we arrive where we are today.

I admit it's a personal hypothesis, but the definition of vulgar and upper vs lower class vocabulary is true.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 09:39 AM
D@mn & d@mnation have religious or blasphemous overtones. "God d@mn you to Hell" for instance. It's a hangover from when the Christian church held much more power over the nation and found offence in the evocation of the Almighty to settle personal grudges.

Oddly enough, you'll hear the phrase "Well I'm d@mned!" - as an exclamation of (normally delighted) surprise - a lot in 1940's British films.

ploughman
11-21-2005, 09:44 AM
What happened to the freakin' bus thing? Now she's riding shotgun for a Spitfire pilot!

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
What happened to the freakin' bus thing? Now she's riding shotgun for a Spitfire pilot! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did it for you, Ploughman...figured you shouldn't have to go through life frightened of public transport http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ploughman
11-21-2005, 10:01 AM
Well that's mighty gentleman like of you, pilgrim.

How'd you get a line on avatar? You being nice to people again?

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 10:06 AM
"The Hell I am!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-21-2005, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
hehe that funny ^_^

balrog please no use sama honourific for me i no deserve sama. want use honourific use san or kun(if much older than me) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem 'Kenji san' it is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

On a side Note

'Oh Sh1t' - In Norwegian is (as I understand it ) actualy not as bad as it is in British and would be the equivalent to saying 'oh bother'

Perhaps the modern English usage came about when some British people saw the odd viking tread in some muck and use the sentance 'Oh Sh1t'? Early word association perhaps? who knows?

Like the new motor btw Low but you better be careful if you park that outside the 'Fokker' you never know who's whatching http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 11:36 AM
Can't give so many punters a lift home as I could with the bus, but I got it for a steal... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Sh1t" does seem to be a mild expletive in most European languages doesn't it? Wonder why the British are so perturbed about it?

Forgive me, but has this thread touched on American English versus English English yet? Like elevator = lift, bum = tramp, butt = bum and so on?

Unknown-Pilot
11-21-2005, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
Can't give so many punters a lift home as I could with the bus, but I got it for a steal... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Sh1t" does seem to be a mild expletive in most European languages doesn't it? Wonder why the British are so perturbed about it?

Forgive me, but has this thread touched on American English versus English English yet? Like elevator = lift, bum = tramp, butt = bum and so on? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tramp has mostly fallen out of use here, but I have heard it more often associated with loose women. Which is why as a kid "The Lady and the Tramp" kinda confused me. lol

Lift and elevate are the same idea, just slang/spin/view I fuess. But how did bum come to mean butt? And are all trucks "lories"(sp)?

Erasers I can see being called rubbers, similar to lift/elevate since they are often made from rubber. But where did you get your word for cigarette?

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 12:01 PM
I've got a guidebook for G.I's stationed in Britain during the war knocking around somewhere.....fascinating section on how to converse with the natives. "Never say 'bloody' in front of a British woman" and so on, plus a list of words with different meanings for either country. I'll see if I can dig it out later.

ploughman
11-21-2005, 01:28 PM
All trucks are lorries, or wagons. As in, 'told you you'd never fit that wagon under that bridge, You dumb ****.' Bum is butt, as previously alluded to but fanny most definately is not. The American phrase 'she fell on her fanny,' really makes people wince on this side of the pond. A butt, interestingly, is a cigarette, as is a ***. A ****** used to be something nice for dinner, until we found out what was in them. Shag is something sweaty teenagers with sticky socks aspire to.

Tramps have now been replaced by hedgemonkies throughout most of England.

Gasoline is petrol and gas is gas.

For those with a martial historical bent, 'we're on a bit of a sticky wicket here, old boy,' means 'the hill is completely overrun by tens of thousands of screaming Communist troops, we're almost out of ammunition and half the chaps are dead or dying, I can barely hear you over the sound of incoming artillery and I'm just nipping outside with a bag of grenades because the buggers have just captured the latrine. Again.'

Oh, that's amusing. I just posted this and half the inocuous English words that mean something rude in America got censored. Wonder if I can say ******?

Not anymore.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 01:31 PM
They're not ready for references to cricket, surely? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Dunkelgrun
11-21-2005, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Shag is something sweaty teenagers with sticky socks aspire to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unpressed tobacco also known as shag tobacco has a sharper lighter flavour and is a more golden colour than pressed tobacco.

It's also a bird so similar to a cormorant that I can't tell the difference.

So... 'I'd just had a good shag with my bird and was smoking a pipe of good shag when I saw a shag fly by.' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers!

blakduk
11-21-2005, 03:56 PM
One good thing about the English language is you can use it to judge when you are getting old. I find myself getting really p*ssed off with TV reporters when they say 'Things are really HOTTING up', rather than 'Things are really HEATING up'!
I suddeny got old http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 03:59 PM
I can remember when gay meant happy and carefree....

blakduk
11-21-2005, 04:11 PM
BTW- another absurdity of the English language is that 'GHOTI' can spell 'fish'....
Take the 'GH' from 'laugh'.
Take the first 'O' from 'tomorrow'.
Take the 'TI' from 'nation'.
Put it all together and you have 'fish'.

I noted earlier someone posted how similar German and English are. I found when i Austria and Germany that if i tried to be polite and speak (my very limited) German to people they would immediately respond with a torrent of German back to me. Apparently my pronunciation was so accurate (and i look a bit German) people were confused when i couldnt respond. Friends told me in then end that it was far easier if i just spoke English as it avoided the confusion- people would know straight away i was an ignorant foreigner and treat me accordingly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I think also that fact that i rode motorbikes all the time people seemed to assume i was a local.
In countries that used romantic languages like French or Italian my pronunciation of local words was so horrifying to the locals they invariably waved their hands and DEMANDED i speak English. Sometimes however they enquired if i was 'Deustche?'
I still think the hardest language for me to speak is Spanish- anytime i used Spanish words i couldnt help grinning. I'd seen too many spaghetti westerns and cartoons with 'Speedy Gonzales' and i couldnt help laughing at the fact i sounded like i was imitating a Mexican bandit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
I think a few small villages in central Espania may remember a crazy Aussie who used an appalling hollywood accent and grinned like an idiot whenever he spoke.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-21-2005, 04:19 PM
That's 'foosh', surely?

marc_hawkins
11-21-2005, 09:07 PM
And just to confuse people about english some more (and once again shamelessly promote my own county) here is a link to a somerset dictionary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/..._to_m_glossary.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/20/somerset_a_to_m_glossary.shtml)

Pirschjaeger
11-21-2005, 10:49 PM
Blakduk, I have the same problem in Germany and China. When in Germany, if I speak people assume I'm from the north according to my German. Then they speak to ma at full speed and get confused when I asked them to slow down. They assume their local accent is bad and try to speak a form of Hoch-Deutsch. Then I explain I am from Canada and they relax and start speaking to me in Turkisch-Deutsch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I hate that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In China, when I speak Chinese, they assume I am fluent. Truth is, I cannot understand much. I dispise any language that requires a certain degree of singing so I have never studied Chinese for more than 1 hour.

The Chinese I speak is only what I learnt from simply living here for 5 years. I can have light conversations but avoid them like the plague. When I get into a taxi and tell the driver where I want to go, they always start asking me about my life and telling me about theirs. I tell them I can speak Chinese but can't understand but they don't care. The onesided conversation continues. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-22-2005, 01:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
And just to confuse people about english some more (and once again shamelessly promote my own county) here is a link to a somerset dictionary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/..._to_m_glossary.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/20/somerset_a_to_m_glossary.shtml) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-22-2005, 02:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
And just to confuse people about english some more (and once again shamelessly promote my own county) here is a link to a somerset dictionary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/..._to_m_glossary.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/20/somerset_a_to_m_glossary.shtml) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was amazed at how a lot of it sounds so much like Newfie English. They use a lot of the same words. I also saw similarities with German.

Very interesting.

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-22-2005, 02:21 AM
my head hurt ^_^

fritz admit have also start speaking foriener like they 100% japanese sometime only be tell that they no able speak much at all.

it amaze how much difference english there depend on where it use japan have difference nihongo but no near english ^_^. variety spice of life guess

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-22-2005, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkII:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by marc_hawkins:
And just to confuse people about english some more (and once again shamelessly promote my own county) here is a link to a somerset dictionary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/..._to_m_glossary.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset/content/articles/2005/01/20/somerset_a_to_m_glossary.shtml) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was amazed at how a lot of it sounds so much like Newfie English. They use a lot of the same words. I also saw similarities with German.

Very interesting.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep - apparently it's a result of us West Country boys standing up to the Vikings, Alfred the Great and all that - we never adopted Norse dialect. I'm told that it's as close to the original Anglo-Saxon as you can get.

A friend of mine recently travelled to Newfoundland and was amazed at the local accent - 'It's just like ours', she said.

Pirschjaeger
11-22-2005, 05:21 AM
Newfies are still my favorite Canadians. The nicest people you could ever party with. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

marc_hawkins
11-22-2005, 07:57 AM
Though these days westcountry seems to be going the way of most local accents. Mostly the old boys and those in the sticks keep it alive, and it comes back out in me when i've had a few beers...

Never heard that about the newfies! really must go over sometime and say 'ello.

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-22-2005, 08:04 AM
'ello, or 'ow'see doin' yur ol' bugger... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

marc_hawkins
11-22-2005, 08:10 AM
awright s'pose ow'se yor moose farwm doin' ?

Low_Flyer_MkII
11-22-2005, 08:18 AM
Diggy, ver diggy thank ee. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I say! 1,000th post.http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/8_14_71.gif

marc_hawkins
11-22-2005, 02:08 PM
way hey! well done! er, i mean good on yer, me ole mucker.

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 02:40 AM
Somehow, I'd expected more questions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 02:45 AM
think people shy + standard english much high on forum guess i exception to rule.

problem i alway have when speak try say certain sound or word like ok i usual say o ka &gt;_&lt; other problem be word like demo which in nihon-go mean but

panther3485
11-23-2005, 03:14 AM
Hi Pirschjaeger,

Quote:
Somehow, I'd expected more questions.

The main purpose of this thread should be well understood by now and we all know where to find you. Relax and enjoy the banter. When a question comes in, it comes in.


Best regards,
panther3485

P.S. I may be 'offline' for a day or two as I'm going into hospital and will have no computer access. (Just so you know if I don't answer anything during that time).

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 04:23 AM
I like the banter. It's the best part of this forum.

Maybe I had wrongly assumed the numbers of ESL members in GD. Previously, I would have guessed at 50% or more.

The other day I noticed we had almost 300 signed in members and almost 1000 guests. It seems the community is large but the members that post regularly are a small amount.

Is there a way of finding out how many members we have?

Fritz

nakamura_kenji
11-23-2005, 04:26 AM
no think so as register ubi forum no maddox forum. this mean impossible check total member as would include people for other game no sure if possible check what member have post here.

have few friend that lurk and no be register few time have post ask question for them

Pirschjaeger
11-23-2005, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nakamura_kenji:
no think so as register ubi forum no maddox forum. this mean impossible check total member as would include people for other game no sure if possible check what member have post here.

have few friend that lurk and no be register few time have post ask question for them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, I completely forgot about all the other games involved in this forum. Thx Kenji http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

MEGILE
11-23-2005, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:


Is there a way of finding out how many members we have?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When in doubt, Poll. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif