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Redfastshadow
02-02-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm sorry, my second post I pretty much hijacked somebody's thread with my take on the game's shotguns and my experience with a tactical shotgun.

I figured I can make it up by starting a discussion here.

Like I said earlier (for those of you with A.D.D.)
I have 10 years military service time, I trained extensively to use the Remington 870 12 gauge riot shotgun.

I used armor piercing shells and double 00 buckshot exclusively. Double 00 is nine 32 caliber pellets stuffed in a shell.

The point I'm making is that with all my time in on the range and tactical scenarios, you can make a killing shot with a single shell at 25 yards / 70 feet. On a adult human sized target, all 9 pellets plus the plastic wadding hit the target in a lethal pattern. There is not much dispersement.

What the game does not simulate is drift. With the 870, if you have a bead sight you have to aim at the person's pelvis and the buckshot will drift upwards at it's fullest range of 25 yards to get the chest shot.
If your 870 had a ramp sight, you didn't have to make that adjustment because it was already set down for you. We had acogs because of the AP shells, I really didn't plan to make a 25 yard shot with a shotgun because I only carried 40 shells on me. I'll use a pistol if I really had to, or just wait for my team with the M-16's and M'4's to do the long range job.

The game is accurate pretty much with the long distance killing shot, sans target drift.
And without the recoil.. in real life you'll never put two shells in the same place in rapid succession.

I have trained with the 870 Riot and the Benelli M3 Super 90. (Sorry.. no SPAS.)

Even with the M3 Super 90, I can make a lethal shot all the way to the end of the shotgun range. You really don't want to in real life, but you could.

Good job to Ubi for making the best shotgun representation in a videogame that I can recall.

This was for the people who claim the shotgun to be like a sniper rifle.

Redfastshadow
02-02-2007, 10:33 PM
I'm sorry, my second post I pretty much hijacked somebody's thread with my take on the game's shotguns and my experience with a tactical shotgun.

I figured I can make it up by starting a discussion here.

Like I said earlier (for those of you with A.D.D.)
I have 10 years military service time, I trained extensively to use the Remington 870 12 gauge riot shotgun.

I used armor piercing shells and double 00 buckshot exclusively. Double 00 is nine 32 caliber pellets stuffed in a shell.

The point I'm making is that with all my time in on the range and tactical scenarios, you can make a killing shot with a single shell at 25 yards / 70 feet. On a adult human sized target, all 9 pellets plus the plastic wadding hit the target in a lethal pattern. There is not much dispersement.

What the game does not simulate is drift. With the 870, if you have a bead sight you have to aim at the person's pelvis and the buckshot will drift upwards at it's fullest range of 25 yards to get the chest shot.
If your 870 had a ramp sight, you didn't have to make that adjustment because it was already set down for you. We had acogs because of the AP shells, I really didn't plan to make a 25 yard shot with a shotgun because I only carried 40 shells on me. I'll use a pistol if I really had to, or just wait for my team with the M-16's and M'4's to do the long range job.

The game is accurate pretty much with the long distance killing shot, sans target drift.
And without the recoil.. in real life you'll never put two shells in the same place in rapid succession.

I have trained with the 870 Riot and the Benelli M3 Super 90. (Sorry.. no SPAS.)

Even with the M3 Super 90, I can make a lethal shot all the way to the end of the shotgun range. You really don't want to in real life, but you could.

Good job to Ubi for making the best shotgun representation in a videogame that I can recall.

This was for the people who claim the shotgun to be like a sniper rifle.

Raiden360
02-03-2007, 12:15 AM
Yes, thats totally correct. The shotguns are a 100% realistic representation of what they are in real life. Especially the XM-26 which can fire 6 full power shotgun rounds full auto with next to no recoil across a room in real life too...wait, it cant.

RoundEyeRacer
02-03-2007, 01:29 AM
I'd agree with most of what you have posted Redfastshadow, but not all of it.

Without calling into question your military experience I disagree with what you said about placing two shots in rapid succession at the same target. My training was with a Mossberg M500 and it was required to place two shots, center mass, at 25yrds quickly. I'd say I could do it at a little over half the speed of the XM-26LSS in the game, and my instructors could do at very close to that speed (one used the 870).

Also, as far as drift goes, the M500 shot low in relation to the bead, but not so much that I would have to aim at the person's head to hit his chest. So at 25yrds with the M500, if you were to shoot at a basketball you only have to aim at close to top of it to get all 9-shots on target. You make the Remington sound like ****. Are you exaggerating a bit?

I do agree with you about the effectiveness of the shotgun in this game, though. People really try to downplay their role in combat.

Some of the things I'd like the game to show would make the shotgun ridiculous in a firefight. The things I don't like are how slow they shoot it, how much the characters look like little girls when it recoils, and their inability to shoot while it's reloading. Like I said above I could shoot much faster, but one thing that I didn't mention in my training was my ability to reload while pointing the gun down range ready to fire if necessary. These guys don't even know how to do a combat reload.

Redfastshadow
02-03-2007, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RoundEyeRacer:
I'd agree with most of what you have posted Redfastshadow, but not all of it.

Without calling into question your military experience I disagree with what you said about placing two shots in rapid succession at the same target. My training was with a Mossberg M500 and it was required to place two shots, center mass, at 25yrds quickly. I'd say I could do it at a little over half the speed of the XM-26LSS in the game, and my instructors could do at very close to that speed (one used the 870).

Also, as far as drift goes, the M500 shot low in relation to the bead, but not so much that I would have to aim at the person's head to hit his chest. So at 25yrds with the M500, if you were to shoot at a basketball you only have to aim at close to top of it to get all 9-shots on target. You make the Remington sound like ****. Are you exaggerating a bit?

I do agree with you about the effectiveness of the shotgun in this game, though. People really try to downplay their role in combat.

Some of the things I'd like the game to show would make the shotgun ridiculous in a firefight. The things I don't like are how slow they shoot it, how much the characters look like little girls when it recoils, and their inability to shoot while it's reloading. Like I said above I could shoot much faster, but one thing that I didn't mention in my training was my ability to reload while pointing the gun down range ready to fire if necessary. These guys don't even know how to do a combat reload. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not exaggerating about the drift on the 870. At 25 yards, you had to aim at the pelvic bowl of an human sized target to get the buckshot to get up to the chest. That was with a bead sight on the end of the barrel. If you didn't do that, you would get the shot pattern across the targets face. Bad? Not really, but it is when you're being graded for how many pellets are on target, therefore you want the most, so you aim low. Of course, we're talking about the difference now between the Mossberg and the Remington.

Some of our 870's had ramp sights, you just aimed at the chest because the ramp was set to put the down angle already.

I really honestly felt like it wasn't a given thing to be able put two sets of shots in the exact same place at 25 yards in rapid succession. There's variables, I suppose. I don't doubt you can though. Wearing a tactical vest that doubles as a life preserver and a bullet proof vest, I had to deal with recoil differently because I really couldn't stick the butt of the shotgun in the pocket of my shoulder.

The Remington was a good shotgun. It served me well. While I was in, I never got to play with the MCS versions (modular combat system). I got use a Super 90 with a swing stock, that was not a good experience. I need that stock to my shoulder.

I miss combat loading, you brought up good memories of firing off your last round and then while braced up, you snake a round in through the ejection port. I sort of wish you could do that in the game, that would have saved me a few times while reloading.

As for the game.. the recoil could be done differently and after playing last night, I do notice the speed of fire is too slow with the 870, but in all the shotguns are great tools.

D---Fingers
02-03-2007, 01:48 PM
i defend the shotguns in this game as well, i think they are perfectly fine.

i have never been able to EFFECTIVELY "snipe" anyone with the shotgun for a distance more then 25 yard on a CONSISTENT basis. and i would like to think i do fairly well with a shotgun in this game.

25 yards if i had to make a guess is about the distance from the top of the helipad (at the fence near the glitch box) all the way to the clear area in front of the fast rope glass roof in calypso Alpha spawn.

put it this way, from the helipad to the farthest end of the roof (longest shootable distance in Calypso) isnt even close to 80 yards. that is comparing the distance of the longest straight in Killhouse which is said by the dev to be 80 METERS.


anyways my point is, to be able to shoot from the helipad to the glass roof with a shotgun, i am still only able to hit lethally about 2 or 3 out of 10 carefully aimed shots. and it is only lethal because the game considers a single buck shot pellet to the head count as a kill.

that distance is in no way a "snipe" by any means.


try sniping the ends of the long mezzanine catwalk in killhouse and tell me if a shotgun can hit anything but a barn door from that distance. or try sniping the right side of the church from bravo spawn in Border town all the way down the alley.


you wont hit anything.


i have noticed people who complain about long distance kills by shotguns:

1. have never used the shotgun in this game.

2. are getting killed across rooms in CASINO VAULT (a distance in reality of about 25-30 feet)

3. have absolutely no skill with a rifle if they are getting bested by a shotgun at "distance."

4. are very poor at basic math and calculating effective range

5. are just new to the game


i have never ever seen anyone lose a cover-and-shoot snipe duel to a shotgun when they have a rifle or smg, at any distance more then 25 yards in this game. if you do, you have to seriously reconsider your skills.



the furthest i have ever gotten killed by a shotgun in this game is right outside of the first set of planters coming out of Alpha spawn in LVU campus (coming from the bottom double doors), i was hit from the top of the stairs in front of the glitch window. even the guy admitted it was a lucky shot. and that isnt even that far of a distance.

i've heard people complain because of dying from one end of the hallway to the other across the span of Bravo spawn in casino vault.

does anyone seriously consider that "long distance"?

navyredman
02-03-2007, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">25 yards if i had to make a guess is about the distance from the top of the helipad (at the fence near the glitch box) all the way to the clear area in front of the fast rope glass roof in calypso Alpha spawn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think that is 25 yards, you need to go visit a football field.

I'd also like to point out that Whoever said the longest shot in this map is 80 meter is crazy. For one, kill house is not the longest straight shot. The dam from the window in alpha spawn to the door at bravo spawn is much further, and much further than 80 meters.

sloppymeatwad
02-04-2007, 08:51 PM
Red,

You make a good argument about the shotgun issue. However, you fail to mention that XM-26LSS is not a full-auto shotgun in reality.

I don't understand why people with little or no experience with firearms complain about unrealistic handling yet make no mention of the fact that the full-auto function on the XM is a game designers wet dream.

Secondly, the Spas-12 can be switched to a semi-auto and back to a manual pump-action with some minor adjustments, in the game it only works as a pump.

I feel the issue with the XM's fire selector is justification to ban it anytime I host and a it is a far greater problem than any "newb's" issue with to so called sniping shotgun.

TROUBLENSB
02-05-2007, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The point I'm making is that with all my time in on the range and tactical scenarios, you can make a killing shot with a single shell at 25 yards / 70 feet. On a adult human sized target, all 9 pellets plus the plastic wadding hit the target in a lethal pattern. There is not much dispersement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree with you as long are you are referring to a target that is not covered in Class III body armor. 9 pellet 00 buck does not penetrate body armor in general, let alone Class III body armor. The idea that the shotguns in this game are one shot killers to the chest of someone so armored is hilarious to me. A headshot, of course a kill. A player running around with a tanktop and pants on, yep, one shot kill there. But a guy in full armor and you hit him in the chest with a shotgun at any range??? Not happening.

Obviously you mentioned AP rounds for your shotgun, I have dealt with a few steel core shells and even some explosive rounds for AP, but in my experience, none were adopted as standard fare or even issued in other than specialty roles. As you already stated, shotgunners rely heavily on their AR equipped buddies to handle long range encounters as well as heavily armored targets.

The shotgun is finding itself in the door breaching/guard duty role more and more in today's war zones. It's being pulled from squad cars and replaced with M4' s and other AP capable carbines across America. The L.A. bank robbery is a great example of how inadequate the shotgun is against an armored target.

As to personal experience with shotguns, I have shot every shotgun in this game with the exception of the XM fairytale shotgun. I have friends who are currently deployed with the 10th mountain that are using the real life XM and they have been told to use non lethals and breaching shells only. They aren't very impressed from what I have gathered so far from them. Both the M3 and the Spas are Semi/pump capable. Why they aren't that way in the game is beyond me. It would have been a nice feature to have.

In my opinion, they shotguns have an extended range of fire in this game. But that is based on the fact that I don't agree with the Devs regarding the distances that are portrayed in this game. I have found that most civis don't have a clue what distances are when judging by eyesight alone. The comment that streets is the longest shot in the game is proof of that fact. Thanks.

TROUBLENSB

BYOB Kenobi
02-05-2007, 01:41 PM
One of my friends uses a spas12 as his primary weapon all the time. I've been messing around with armor going from "class I" to "class III" and everywhere in between.

While I'm from 0-3 a single shotgun blast to the chest will flatten me from pretty much every "run and gun" distance. That means anywhere that I'll be running around and find myself across from a bad guy.

At 7-10 it WILL take 2 shotgun blasts unless he headshots me from anywhere but point blank. I have rarely been brought down by a shotgun at 7-10 armor unless it's real close and a nice high shot to my upper chest/face.

At 4-6 at "run and gun" distance it takes a solid shot at close range to take me down. My buddy doesn't miss much, so I get a good feel for what works against a shotgun wielding maniac and what doesn't. At "class II" armor you're not going to die to a "snipe" and you're not going to die to a chest shot unless it's up close (so he won't kill me from the pill box to the porch on streets with one shot) and you're fast enough to get behind cover while he's pumping the spas.

What I see as the bigger problem is the SCALE of the maps. Play retrieval or A&D and pay attention to the numbers. Even Border town is only around 150meters from the alpha spawn to the church. That's really not very far. It actually LOOKS and FEELS much longer, but it's not. That's why people freak out about range. The maps are tiny in scale no matter how long they feel.

You'd think a spec ops guy in a T shirt and BDU pants would run 100 yards a little faster.

Beatflux
02-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Interesting topic.

StitchFC
02-05-2007, 05:34 PM
Shotguns with 00 buck are great against unarmored foes. against padded armor at short range still effective. against any kind of weave or plate - far less effective in lethality - still great for knockdown value.

Shotgun w/slug - at short to medium ranges - oh my god...1oz slug makes a really big hole even through armor....

I have shot the Benelli Super90 M3, SPAS12, and several flavors of hunting/recreational shotguns - with practice I have seen skeet and trap shooters blaze accurately at multiple moving targets....its not hard to believe....it is hard to achieve.

I do feel that scale/range makes things harder to equate...but also..guys...its a GAME... =P

now if it was a SIMULATION we would have a whole different conversation....

TROUBLENSB
02-06-2007, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">now if it was a SIMULATION we would have a whole different conversation.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. But the gentleman who started this thread stated that the shotguns were realistic. Thus my comments and those of others pointing out the differences. Thanks.

TROUBLENSB

P.S. I mean this politely, but the guys in the LA bank robbery were wearing body armor, they were shot with buckshot and slugs. They neither went down from the "knockdown value" or were penetrated with 1oz slugs.

jat54321
02-06-2007, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
P.S. I mean this politely, but the guys in the LA bank robbery were wearing body armor, they were shot with buckshot and slugs. They neither went down from the "knockdown value" or were penetrated with 1oz slugs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well now, that isnt really the typical situation, those guys layered themselves with so much armour id be suprised if they even knew they were being shot, they were also drugged up on painkillers

BYOB Kenobi
02-06-2007, 12:35 PM
At Border Town, from Alpha Spawn to the Alpha deposit box (retreival) is about 100m. That's roughly 120? yards? That's really not that much longer than a football field.

I've screwed around with my little .22 pistol and hit targets at that range. I don't know anything about lethality or military hubabaloo... but I do know the scale of this game is depressingly small.

StitchFC
02-06-2007, 01:13 PM
keep in mind the heavier the projectile with the same propellant the shorter the effective range.

When I use 1oz slug or 00 buck I typically am shooting at targets within 20 feet max. A 1 oz slug loses velocity at an incredible rate even with 3 and 1/4in magnum shells propelling it.

same with the heavier 00 buck pellets vs other size/fills. be it 3in or 3 and 1/4in magnum your effective range and the change in impact power vary by distance to target.

so - against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people - at longer ranges it might not even be noticed by them.

take those same two fully armored and drugged up perps at a range of 10 feet with a 1oz slug you will see a GREATLY different result.

TROUBLENSB
02-06-2007, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jat54321:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
P.S. I mean this politely, but the guys in the LA bank robbery were wearing body armor, they were shot with buckshot and slugs. They neither went down from the "knockdown value" or were penetrated with 1oz slugs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well now, that isnt really the typical situation, those guys layered themselves with so much armour id be suprised if they even knew they were being shot, they were also drugged up on painkillers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would respectfully disagree, I will try to explain why I think this robbery is a great example of how body armor reacts under fire.

1) The robbers were not layered in body armor as has been stated. As a matter of fact, the second robber had only a vest w/trauma plate on. The first robber had cut up several armor vests and fashioned arm and leg guards with the Kevlar. His armor suit was composed of parts from at least 4 level IIIA XL vests: According to the police reports, the suspect had two halves of one vest wrapped around his legs, two more halves around his thighs, two halves on his arms, one full vest on his torso, and a groin protector on his waist. While he was covered in Armor, it was not layered and was still Class III. This is the level of armor that most of this game portrays.

2) Drugs - Phenobarbital - The drug of choice for these two men is a sedative used to treat seizures in epylepsy patients. It does affect the speed in which nerve signals are sent to the brain, but it is not a pain killer as one might imagine.

More than 2000 rounds were fired during the shootout. With over 900 of them coming from the police. Out of those rounds, only 11 penetrated the first robber, and those were found to be from the M4's the SWAT teams were using when they arrived. The second robber has been hit with 29 rounds that penetrated or hit him in uncovered areas. The first robber survived long enough to shoot himself, while the second bled to death in police custody. Prior to the arrival of the SWAT team, police were using .38 Special Revolvers, 9mm Beretta pistols, Remington and Ithaca shotguns with buckshot and slugs.

I don't mean to argue about this, I just think that alot of people learned about body armor that day. Thankfully only the robbers died. Personally I like shotguns and spent quite a bit of money on my personal Benelli M1 Super 90, but their ability for one shot kills is sometimes taken as a given when it's not always so, especially when Body armor is introduced into the equation. thanks.

TROUBLENSB

TROUBLENSB
02-06-2007, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StitchFC:
so - against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people - at longer ranges it might not even be noticed by them.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I completely agree that as the range increases shotguns are less effective. Especially against armored targets. My issue is that the game doesn't seem to take that into account. It acts like a shotgun hit is a shotgun hit, no matter what distance away.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> take those same two fully armored and drugged up perps at a range of 10 feet with a 1oz slug you will see a GREATLY different result </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I won't disagree that a 1 oz slug is going to pass a large amount of energy to the body in the situation you state above, but to think that they will die instantly, or even die at all, is far from given. Thanks.

TROUBLENSB

StitchFC
02-06-2007, 04:24 PM
there are many variables involved sure.

but

my assertion was that it would be greatly different from the shrugged off or ignored scenario.

consider the sheer blunt force trauma imparted by a 3.25in magnum 1oz slug at 10ft - even level 3 armor still transfers impact kinetic energy. 12ga steel plate can be deformed or penetrated at that range - wound trauma from any non glancing blow (center mass or limb) will certainly be significant.

the key is getting within that short range... the perps in question were highly armed with assault weapons - suppressing and often forcing law enforcement officers to disengage.

shotguns are up close and personal weapons. Can they be used at a distance? sure. but their most effective kill zone is generally cqb.

BYOB Kenobi
02-08-2007, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TROUBLENSB:
I completely agree that as the range increases shotguns are less effective. Especially against armored targets. My issue is that the game doesn't seem to take that into account. It acts like a shotgun hit is a shotgun hit, no matter what distance away.
TROUBLENSB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't? Then why does it take more shotgun blasts at distance than up close? This sounds more like an angry victim than an educated opinion.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that shotgun fire decreases in effectivness the further away you are in Rainbow Six: Vegas. Not only that, but the affectiveness drops off quickly. Thanks.

BYOB Kenobi

navyredman
02-08-2007, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">so - against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people - at longer ranges it might not even be noticed by them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A round from a gun CANNOT knock a person down.

That is stricky movie magic. It is physically immpossible for something that light no matter what the velocity to move something with the weight of an adult human.

jat54321
02-08-2007, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BYOBKenobi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TROUBLENSB:
I completely agree that as the range increases shotguns are less effective. Especially against armored targets. My issue is that the game doesn't seem to take that into account. It acts like a shotgun hit is a shotgun hit, no matter what distance away.
TROUBLENSB </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't? Then why does it take more shotgun blasts at distance than up close? This sounds more like an angry victim than an educated opinion.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that shotgun fire decreases in effectivness the further away you are in Rainbow Six: Vegas. Not only that, but the affectiveness drops off quickly. Thanks.

BYOB Kenobi </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no disrespect intended, but i think you misunderstood what was trying to be said, i think the arguement above was that over distances, the power of a round (a single ball in a 00 buck) would decrease because it is slowing down. It doesnt seem to have this effect in r6 because over distances, a single ball will do the same damage up close and far away. Now, shotguns take more shots at distances because of the fact that the balls are spreading out and less are hitting the target, however the ones that DO hit are hitting with the same force 80 yrds away as they would from 2 feet away, when this would not be the case in real life, after 80 yrds the kinetic energy would be less because the ball is slowing down, so they are suggesting a power drop in the shotguns over range, which is not implimented in the game

Lrhubanks
02-08-2007, 08:12 PM
This is a good thread. I know next to nothing about different shotgun ammunition, but I was under the impression that the shotguns kill from an unrealistic distance. Thanks for clearing it up. (I guess I play too much halo. Used to the whole energy shield thing...)

BYOB Kenobi
02-09-2007, 01:45 AM
If you fire a XM LSS on full auto from the top of the brick building to the top of the wood building you will see the MAXIMUM spread those balls get.

Now take a spas12/870 and do the same thing. They don't really spread all that far, but they are far from lethal at that range. I'm guessing you'll get 9/10th of the balls on target at that range, but you won't get a killshot unless you hit him twice consecutively... if not 3 or 4 shots.

I also find it hard to figure out how anyone could have the ability to tell how many balls were on target and off. If you're firing the thing, it's near impossible to see. If you're taking the shot, I doubt you're going something like "man, I just got hit with 3 of the 7 pellets in that shotgun blast."

I've also found it's near impossible, if not just a total anomoly to get a headshot from a distance further than you are supposed to be able to hit someone with a shotgun.

mp9 you can... but the bullets go where you tell them to... and keep going that direction... unlike the shotguns that spread/give an unreliable pattern.

D---Fingers
02-09-2007, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



off-topic physics geek-out lesson:

force = mass x accelleration

the mass of a bullet is really low, although its velocity is high, and those 2 factors combined do not equal enough force to "knock" a person on his butt. up close the amount of trauma received can cause a person to fall (downward, not backward). but that is due to the pain or shock, not the force.


people compare taking a bullet with armor to being punch by mike tyson.


however given the force = mass x accelleration thing again...


a punch is delivered by someone coupled by gravity to the ground. while a hand may not weigh much by itself, since it is part of your body and your body is coupled to the ground by gravity, you are transferring a great deal of weight into your punch so the "mass" part of the equation is quite high where as the "Accelleration" part of the equation pales in comparison to a bullet... but overall the outcome is a force that is quite high enough to send you falling backward.



another good example:

baseball pitcher.

being hit by a fastball will not send you flying backward (you may fall straight down, but not fling back). but being hit by a full punch of the pitcher (if he is hitting you as hard as he would throw a ball) you will probably get knocked backward.

navyredman
02-09-2007, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



off-topic physics geek-out lesson:

force = mass x accelleration

the mass of a bullet is really low, although its velocity is high, and those 2 factors combined do not equal enough force to "knock" a person on his butt. up close the amount of trauma received can cause a person to fall (downward, not backward). but that is due to the pain or shock, not the force.


people compare taking a bullet with armor to being punch by mike tyson.


however given the force = mass x accelleration thing again...


a punch is delivered by someone coupled by gravity to the ground. while a hand may not weigh much by itself, since it is part of your body and your body is coupled to the ground by gravity, you are transferring a great deal of weight into your punch so the "mass" part of the equation is quite high where as the "Accelleration" part of the equation pales in comparison to a bullet... but overall the outcome is a force that is quite high enough to send you falling backward.



another good example:

baseball pitcher.

being hit by a fastball will not send you flying backward (you may fall straight down, but not fling back). but being hit by a full punch of the pitcher (if he is hitting you as hard as he would throw a ball) you will probably get knocked backward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of people confuse human reaction as being knocked down or being "blown back"

All living being have major different reactions to being shot. A great example is watch somebody deer hunting. I saw a guy shoot a deer on one of the hunting channels where the deer jumped probably 5 feet straight up in the air and then came down running.

StitchFC
02-09-2007, 01:20 PM
antipersonnel - without going into the statistical and number crunching aspect of the topic

have you ever shot a large caliber firearm?
have you ever seen the result of being shot by a large caliber firearm?
have you ever seen a living creature shot by a firearm of any kind?

I asked one of my co-workers who happens to be a vietnam veteran how a body reacts when hit - for reference he served actively for 3 years in country and was often armed with a shotgun. His reply was - with conviction - you hit someone they go down, hard, and fly back some.

now whether this is a reaction of the human reflex when hit by large trauma. or if you apply physics and consider that the full body weight of a human rests upon the pivot points known as their feet and can thus be swayed much more easily than just adjusting for base mass. or the fact that the foot/lb conversion of firearms is also rather impressive - the simple real world experience of seeing a foe get hit and what happens is

you can see them fly back a bit and go down hard.

if you look at the number crunching statistics several sites on the web claim very high foot/lb force/kinetic energy transfer at ranges up to 25 yards with a slug. slug weights varying from 7/8oz to 1oz fired from 2.75 and 3in cartridges. feel free to google shotgun ballistics.

movie magic? well movies show big explosions and such from firearms...exciting - yes, realistic - debateable. but in the real world a solid hit at close range from a slug shotty will impart a tremendous amount of force, blunt force trauma, and severe wounding. leading to probable death by lead poisoning and tissue trauma.

D---Fingers
02-09-2007, 02:42 PM
the only way they would "fly back" is if they used their leg muscles and jumped backward. which is possible due to muscle spasm from the shock. fall backward, thats different. you'll most definitely fall backward. but not enough force to lift your feet off the ground, hence "Flying".

as far as a projectile hitting a target, it is against the laws of physics on this planet earth for it to send a human body "flying back". not even a .50 caliber sniper rifle round. i can believe it severing your body parts more eaislly then it knocking you off your feet.

i didnt invent the rule, its just how it is.

StitchFC
02-09-2007, 04:54 PM
so you are saying if a person is hit at 10ft with a shotgun their feet will remain firmly planted on the ground?

D---Fingers
02-09-2007, 05:08 PM
most likely. if you can show me video proof i will think otherwise.

people shoot themselves in the head with a shotgun all the time. they dont fly off the ground when it happens, instead only the top half of their head does.

back to the guy who got shot at 10 feet away. if he was wearing no armor, he might still be standing with a HUGE hole in his chest, then drop like a sack of bricks. if he was wearing armor he may just fall backwards tumbling, a couple feet if anything. nothing like the "flying back" with legs in the air, people seem to think.

D---Fingers
02-09-2007, 05:19 PM
one way to conclusively test this without the interference of human reaction to gunshots is:

place a 160 lb sandbag on a pedestal and fire at it point blank with a shotgun.

what do you think will happen? its gonna fly off the table?

no, all thats gonna happen is you'll rip a huge hole in the front and all the sand will start pouring out. i dont even think the pelets will penetrate through the entire sandbag, the pelets most likely will get lodged inside... meaning 100% of the kinetic energy was absorbed by the bag and it STILL didnt move.

blame physics, dont blame me. this isnt my opinion.


if you have access to an outdoor range and a shotgun, i suggest you try this yourself.

RoundEyeRacer
02-09-2007, 05:24 PM
AntiPersonnel, use Newtons third law yeah, yeah.

D---Fingers
02-09-2007, 05:36 PM
are you talking about the "billiards" effect?

where one object (pool que) strikes another object (eight ball) and sends it flying, while the pool cue stops moving.

consider those 2 objects are equal size and weight.

if you fired a human out of a gun and it struck another human, you be damned sure the guy who got shot by a flying man will go flying back really really far.

compare the weight of a human being (average say 160 lbs) to the weight of a slug (1 oz).
do you think you are going to send a 160 lb eight-ball into the corner pocket with a 1 oz pool cue?

RoundEyeRacer
02-09-2007, 05:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:
are you talking about the "billiards" effect?

where one object (pool que) strikes another object (eight ball) and sends it flying, while the pool cue stops moving.

consider those 2 objects are equal size and weight.

if you fired a human out of a gun and it struck another human, you be damned sure the guy who got shot by a flying man will go flying back really really far.

compare the weight of a human being (average say 160 lbs) to the weight of a slug (1 oz).
do you think you are going to send the guy into the corner pocket? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just trying to be funny, now I'm worried one of us misunderstands Newton's third. I thought you would have gone with, "the force felt as recoil, is the same as the force pushing the projectile".

Of coarse, that would mean that if you shot a shotgun and were sent flying backwards, then you could theoretically be thrown backwards from being shot. Which is normally not the case.

StitchFC
02-09-2007, 05:55 PM
knockdown - KNOCKED DOWN - caps for emphasis on the words

again I ask the simple question

are you saying their feet will remain firmly planted on the ground? bear in mind that a human being standing walking or running is on their feet - or foot in some instances - the shot at 10 feet distance will impact them and guess what - knock them down....

160lbs of sack is not standing upright at 6ft if you make a 160lb 6ft tall sack and hit it in what would be a center mass torso shot giving the weight in the distribution pattern of the human body - you will see something NOT what you would expect from newtons third law =)

again physics has many parts - moment of inertia is one part - action of human muscles, body mechanics, and pivot points are also related =)

for emphasis once more

are you saying their feet will remain firmly planted on the ground upon being struck by aforementioned 1oz persuador at 1700fps and with a kinetic transfer of approximately 2300ft/lbs?

RoundEyeRacer
02-09-2007, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StitchFC:
for emphasis once more

are you saying their feet will remain firmly planted on the ground upon being struck by aforementioned 1oz persuador at 1700fps and with a kinetic transfer of approximately 2300ft/lbs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can not say for certain whether or not a persons' feet would stay planted after being shot because I have neither shot someone, been shot by anyone, or seen anyone being shot by a 12ga slug. I was under the impression that the main argument here is whether or not someone would go flying backwards when shot. I do see now that at least twice you have asked if a person's feet would stay planted for that I would say no.

But I don't see it as having anything to do with the force at which the slug has, rather the reaction of a person being shot. If a person dies from the shot he would no longer be standing thus not on his feet. That is probably a required part of falling down, no longer being on your feet.

Now, if the person being shot does not die I could only guess what might happen and most of my theory would circle around what any person's instincts would be if faced with this situation. "Run for cover" comes to mind, "hitting the deck" does too, but I could only imagine how a person's plans may change do to trauma. So if you got shot and in a split second decided to run back but your system shuts down, I guess you would have fallen down, or flown backwards.

FYRHWK
02-09-2007, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by navyredman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">25 yards if i had to make a guess is about the distance from the top of the helipad (at the fence near the glitch box) all the way to the clear area in front of the fast rope glass roof in calypso Alpha spawn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think that is 25 yards, you need to go visit a football field.

I'd also like to point out that Whoever said the longest shot in this map is 80 meter is crazy. For one, kill house is not the longest straight shot. The dam from the window in alpha spawn to the door at bravo spawn is much further, and much further than 80 meters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's roughly right, if you threw a tagline from the edge of the helipad to the area he's mentioning it'd be, in my opinion, 30 yards or so. You're imagining it like you're walking, bullets take a straight line, and 30 yards is a good distance. I have to say I agree on kill house having the longest shot, but I'm not going to argue with a dev, there might be something we don't know.

Now I haven't played dam often enough, but I've never made a kill from that position, I generally use an MTAR so range shouldn't be an issue. Maybe I haven't done it often enough, or maybe there's an issue with the game not registering a kill from that far. I don't know, I wish he'd clarify his statement, but the relentless children seem to have driven them off the boards.

navyredman
02-09-2007, 06:50 PM
Nobody will be forcefully knocked back or down by any hand held weapon. It will not happen EVER!

This is not a discussion of maybe if this certain condition exists... It will NOT happen! 10' or 10" a shotgun or anything else human held will NOT NOT NOT knock you off your feat or down. You may fall down, you may jump, you may jump backwards, but you will not be moved by the force of a projectile hitting you. This doesn't matter even if you are wearing body armor made of 30 layer of titanium.

Again, for the hard headed.

A PROJECTILE FIRED FROM A HUMAN HELD WEAPON WILL NOT NOT NOT FORCEFULLY MOVE A BODY.

Hopefully that was clear enough for everybody.

navyredman
02-09-2007, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He's roughly right, if you threw a tagline from the edge of the helipad to the area he's mentioning it'd be, in my opinion, 30 yards or so. You're imagining it like you're walking, bullets take a straight line, and 30 yards is a good distance. I have to say I agree on kill house having the longest shot, but I'm not going to argue with a dev, there might be something we don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll put it this way. I have quite a bit of experience eye balling distances.

RoundEyeRacer
02-09-2007, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by navyredman:
Nobody will be forcefully knocked back or down by any hand held weapon. It will not happen EVER!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about an Acme spring-loaded boxing glove? zing!

navyredman
02-09-2007, 07:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What about an Acme spring-loaded boxing glove? zing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Even though I know your joking, don't forget about the

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

So even if that existed, it would knock you back just as far as the person your hitting with it.

Sorry, I know you're joking, however, somebody would come in and say, "see that would work" lol

RoundEyeRacer
02-09-2007, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by navyredman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What about an Acme spring-loaded boxing glove? zing! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Even though I know your joking, don't forget about the

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"

So even if that existed, it would knock you back just as far as the person your hitting with it.

Sorry, I know you're joking, however, somebody would come in and say, "see that would work" lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you don't know how Acme products work, they don't! Oh!! I got hundreds of 'em folks.

....OK I'm done. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

D---Fingers
02-10-2007, 12:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">160lbs of sack is not standing upright at 6ft if you make a 160lb 6ft tall sack and hit it in what would be a center mass torso shot giving the weight in the distribution pattern of the human body </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even if you stuffed a human-shaped bag of sand with the proper proportions and weight distribution and sat it upright on a pedistal so it was 6 feet high, it would not make a differnce. 160lbs is REALLY FREAKIN HEAVY in comparison to 1 oz. thats even taking into consideration the tremendous amount of force created by the shotgun blast, still cannot knock all 160lbs of the dead weight into the air. yes, that is correct, you would need to transfer enough energy to move ALL 160lbs of the body. that is physically IMPOSSIBLE with any projectile. it will however move PART of your body's mass, say the size of a brain to go flying across the ceiling easilly.

bottom line, please believe me and please believe reality, the only way for a human target to "go flying" is if he used his muscles to jump as a reaction to the shock.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">now I'm worried one of us misunderstands Newton's third. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh yea, i'm embarassed i forgot that newtons 3rd law of motion is: for every action has equal and opposite reaction (i get them mixed up).


you are correct sir. that completely negates any chance of ever being sent into the air by a shotgun... because theoretically, if a person receiving the blast will fly into the air, the person firing it will also, since the same exact amount of force is given at opposite ends.

when a gun fires, the energy that causes the recoil is the same amount of energy exiting the barrel, since the force pushes in opposite directions.

since a 160 lb human being has adequate mass to wield a force that large from firing a shotgun without falling down, according to newtons 3rd, it has the same exact capability of receiving it without flying back.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> if you threw a tagline from the edge of the helipad to the area he's mentioning it'd be, in my opinion, 30 yards or so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you know, i just thought of a conclusive way to determine distances in this game.

play a round of retrieval on any map with a few people for the sake of testing.

then get someone on your team to grab the package and stand at opposite ends of the target area, the number above his head will tell you the EXACT distance apart from you.

TROUBLENSB
02-10-2007, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AntiPersonnel:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if you threw a tagline from the edge of the helipad to the area he's mentioning it'd be, in my opinion, 30 yards or so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you know, i just thought of a conclusive way to determine distances in this game.

play a round of retrieval on any map with a few people for the sake of testing.

then get someone on your team to grab the package and stand at opposite ends of the target area, the number above his head will tell you the EXACT distance apart from you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to point out that you would get a number. I don't exactly agree that it would be the correct distance, but it will be what the DEVS programmed in. Having spent time as a Forward Observer in the U.S. Army, I spent quite a bit of time "eyeballing" distances. I have a hard time with some of the distances we are given in this game by the Devs. Remember, these are guys whose job is to write code, not "eyeball" distance. Besides, they also told me that if they had made all the guns in this game act like their real life counterparts, that they would all act the same. I don't believe that, do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So as you can see, I have a hard time taking their word for it, especially when my experience tells me otherwise. Thanks.

TROUBLENSB

P.S. Contrary to the belief of some in here. I have seen headshots with shotguns from the helo pad to most areas of the roof on the Calypso map. I have also seen kills from window to window on streets. Is it an all night long affair? Not at all, but if it happens once, it is more than some have stated now isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

D---Fingers
02-10-2007, 01:21 AM
i would definitely admit i do not have definitive ability to judge distances by "eye" especially in a digital environment looking at a 2D screen representation of a 3D image.

but i would like to know your thoughts as to distances in this game.

what area do you think is the longest shootable distance?

and how many meters?

what would you say the distance is from helipad to the closest doorway leading down the stairs?

distance from alpha to bravo across killhouse mezanine catwalk?

distance from alpha to bravo windows in streets?


i am not trying to "quiz" you by any means. it just seems to me that you would be more knowledgable about this then i would. i know i wouldnt be able to accurately "eyeball" those distances though. i'd appreciate if you or anyone else could take the time out to figure those out for me.

StitchFC
02-10-2007, 04:21 AM
actually - you dont have to transfer the same amount of force in full - remember pivot, fulcrum, leverage.

also remember other variables and actually navyred - the condition in which a solid plate is on the person makes it more likely as if the round hits solid mass it can then impart the full kinetic transfer of all 2300 ft/lbs instead of a partial transfer through tissue

but again those details not withstanding - I asked someone with combat field experience using a shotgun against moving human targets - and while granted in southeast asia several of those targets might have been shorter and lighter than average - his description of the combat effect of a shotgun round striking an enemy center mass is fairly simple

they fly back a bit and go down hard

the item at issue is knockback - not fantastic 20 foot flights after an explosion from a firearm round - knockdown the effective removal from direct combat of a participant.

now whether the effect is caused by muscle reflex, full transfer of kinetic energy due to the round striking bone instead of soft tissue, cosmic influence of karma /shrug dont really care - all I am reporting is participant experience of what happens when the business end of a shotty is used against someone else.

striking the head is a bad example - not enough mass/meat/bone to really capture the kinetic transfer from the round - good example of instant death tho

striking a limb - again incapacitate almost immediately but transfer of energy debateable

striking center mass - energy transfer is still debateable because of the high probability of full penetration - not all energy is transferred if the round leaves the body/wound cavity - through and throughs can sometimes indicate wasted wound potential depending on the ballistics

I would agree soundly that movie magic makes a lot of visual effect to how folks react when hit - but to discount the transfer of energy from an object at 1oz weight moving 1700fps with a KE transfer of 2300 ft/lbs is also a bit naive - there are a lot of variables sure - but a solid hit will transfer a hell of a lot of force.

Similar problems are exemplified by comparing 5.56N with 7.62/.308 - the 223 ball ammo is high velocity and highly frangible - it shatters and makes neat wound channel - BUT it tends to be a through and through type round. it also vaporizes on impact with a lot of different things. 7.62/.308 on the other hand is a heavier bigger round with more oomph to it.

similar arguements are seen with 9mmP vs .45ACP where the smaller round at higher velocity has good penetration - the slow solid heavy hit of the .45ACP will transfer much more energy to a close range target and is more effective in removing threats (unarmored)

navyredman
02-10-2007, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but again those details not withstanding - I asked someone with combat field experience using a shotgun against moving human targets - and while granted in southeast asia several of those targets might have been shorter and lighter than average - his description of the combat effect of a shotgun round striking an enemy center mass is fairly simple </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your so called friend is telling you tall tales. There are some people that frequent these boards that have some idea of the physical effects of rounds fired into people.

I would also throw out there that a person that killed people in war don't make a habit of going around and telling people about it.

Believe your second hand knowledge if you want.

I'm telling you fact. Not something somebody else told me.

D---Fingers
02-10-2007, 01:38 PM
...

D---Fingers
02-10-2007, 01:51 PM
...

BYOB Kenobi
02-10-2007, 04:20 PM
TROUBLE, the scale of this game is waaaaaaay smaller than it looks, but it does dictate what works and what doesn't.... unfortunately.

I'm no military scout, but I played a hell of a lot of football and I know how long 100yards is. 100 meters would be slightly farther... and in this game 100meters looks like about 500 yards.

ooATILAoo
02-11-2007, 05:11 PM
<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Hey everyone, this is a copy-and-paste of a topic I made in another forum about the same subject. I think it's appropriate. </span>

This is my response to the topic "Shotguns Unbalanced?" First, let me state my opinion: Shotguns are balanced in R6: Vegas.

After reading through the topic, I realized that most of the people here are upset with shotguns because they feel their effective range is "unrealistic".

Let's talk about effective range of a firearm. What is effective range? It is the maximum distance a weapon can disable a target consistently. That does not mean kill. If a target is saturated with pellets but alive, he is considered disabled because he is no longer considered useful to the enemy [e.g., he cannot return fire, issue commands, etc.] A disabled enemy would be on the ground, incapacitated. Unfortunately, gaming technology has not risen to the level that the said situation can be replicated, so developers take a shortcut and show the player [enemy] as dead.

When most of you visualize the effective range of a shotgun, you are visualizing an unchoked shotgun's effective range. A choke is a non-cylindrical continuation of the shotgun barrel, used to affect the spread and pattern of the shot fired. Chokes are varied, with many different designs for different purposes. Here is a useful choke diagram: http://www.chuckhawks.com/where_spread1.gif. As you can see, the choke increases the effective range of the shotgun.

I quote from one person [who I won't name] in the "Shotguns Unbalanced" thread: "Maybe "all the way across the map" is a little over blown. But you know what I mean. There is no way a shotgun can kill someone at the ranges they do in this game. Especially when factoring in body armor. If we were a bunch of geese flying around...okay, I could see that. lol But they outrange most of the SMGs, if not all of them. If someone like to use a shotty, then I can see how they are not gonna admit the "unrealisticness" of them.

It is just a game, so I'll play either way. I'd prefer to not have them cause they are the "noob cannon" of RSV....kinda like everyone referred to the MM1 in GRIT. But at least with the MM1 you had to figure out angles to make the grenades effective. Most of the time. lol".

Specifically, "There is no way a shotgun can kill someone at the ranges they do in this game." I assume you're assuming an unchoked shotgun. A shotgun using a Super Full or even Ultra Full [which may exist, I'm not sure] choke could possibly achieve an effective range of 60-65 metres, but I doubt it. Nonetheless, an Extra Full will achieve 50-55 metres. The longest straight area in Vegas is in Kill House [I might be wrong] at 90 metres. I have never seen a shotgun kill a target in one shot at two-thirds of that length. This means that the developers have intentionally shortened the range of shotguns.

"lol But they outrange most of the SMGs, if not all of them." I hope you're joking. The SMG's have an effective range [in the game, not reality] of infinity. There is nowhere in Vegas where an SMG cannot take down a target in one well-placed headshot. 'nuff said.

"Especially when factoring in body armor." I agree that your average body armour would not be penetrated by average buckshot. However, we don't know which buckshot is being used. I'll admit I don't know the ins-and-outs of buckshot, but there is shot out there with a diameter of 9.1 millimetres [9/10ths of a centimetre]. That's pretty big. But that is immaterial, because for all we know, the shotguns aren't loaded with buckshot, they're loaded with sabot rounds. A sabot can contain a dart, with the head heavier than the tail. This forced the round to act differently that buckshot, with less spread and more penetration. Not to mention that when you're getting shot at those ranges it's undoubtedly a head shot that's taking you down.

So, I think it's safe to say that the shotguns in this game have been toned down range-wise. But wait, there's more! Both the M3 and SPAS 12 shotguns are select-fire weapons. In reality, both change from pump-action to recoil-operated, gas-powered, semi-automatic shotguns with the flip of a switch. In contrast, the XM-26 LSS is, IMO, an unbalanced and unfair weapon in this game, because in real life, it does not fire on full-auto, or even semi-auto. It is a bolt-action, under barrel shotgun, a cousin of the Masterkey.

For those of you complaining of unrealistic shotguns, you're complaints are true in the sense that shotguns in Vegas are unrealistic, but not for the reasons you've stated. Also, the unrealisticness does not unbalance the shotguns, it actually makes them weaker than they should be.

As for those of you who say the shotgun is a noob cannon, I challenge you to use it for your first time and obtain a net-positive score. I have used the M3 since the day the MP demo came out, and I can honestly tell you it takes skill and a completely different style of play to master. You have to limit yourself to certain areas of the map, learn hit-and-retreat tactics, etc.

If you want a noob cannon, look no further than the SMGs in Vegas. They are far more accurate than they should be, and this alone gives them a huge advantage. Not only are they short-barrelled weapons, they carry small-calibre rounds, which carry less momentum than NATO 5.56 or 7.62 rounds.

I understand also that you may be the victim of a lucky shot grouping, something I get occasionally. Don't let it fool you into thinking that it happens regularly, it doesn't.

In closing, the shotguns [pump shotguns only] in Vegas are good at what they are meant to be good at, CQ combat, and bad at what they are meant to be bad at. They are not "cheap" or "noob cannons". My only wish is that Ubi added the option to customize the load [slug, buckshot, sabot, and vortex] and choke.

maxx_death_4u
02-11-2007, 07:53 PM
I've seen this topic going on and on, I've read most of it but not all. The "Mythbusters" did a show on this very subject (I'll try to locate the video, and post it later), bullets DO NOT have the mass to move a human. Have you ever seen a motorcycle hit a semi? Not much happens to the semi. Ever seen a meteorite hit the moon?
Just a crater, it doesn't knock it out of orbit.

You've already covered Newton so I won't go there, but let me know if you want the equations.

And for the record, me and my Deer Hunting buddies REALLY wish 00buck would knock a 160lb(250lb would be better) target back and down(it would make life SO much easier).


(Edit: Here you go guys, argue with this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THhx9mZOWSs If you don't want to watch the 9min video, shot while wearing a BP vest with 1" thick steel trauma plate by a .50 cal at 20yards, the target moved 2 1/2" before crumpling to the ground)

RoundEyeRacer
02-11-2007, 08:28 PM
Where were you 15 posts ago? ha ha. They even confirmed my Newton argument. Half of me wasn't even buying it.

maxx_death_4u
02-11-2007, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RoundEyeRacer:
Where were you 15 posts ago? ha ha. They even confirmed my Newton argument. Half of me wasn't even buying it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I wanted to see how it played out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

SepticPreacher
02-12-2007, 03:34 AM
While there are many valid points of view expressed on this subject and at the risk of getting my head bitten off, I think there are three important points of fact that can't be ignored.

1. a tight pattern of 00 shot from 20 yards, or so, travelling at 1000+ fps is like a 7lb hammer being swung hard, so can if it hits the target obliquely, from behind, in the legs, or while moving, knock him over, although it is unlikely in the case of a chest shot from the front.

2. Combat shotguns sometimes use fleschette ammunition, similar to sabot rounds and can be reasonably accurate up to and above 100 metres depending on the specific dart/s and sighting used (including AP) and the in-game lethality of the SPAS could certainly be explained in this way.

3. while the full-auto operation of the XM is far from realistic, it does appear to have the wider shot pattern and consequently shorter effective range, but easier target acquisition than the other shotguns in the game, as you would expect from a short barrelled CQ shotgun.

navyredman
02-12-2007, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. a tight pattern of 00 shot from 20 yards, or so, travelling at 1000+ fps is like a 7lb hammer being swung hard, so can if it hits the target obliquely, from behind, in the legs, or while moving, knock him over, although it is unlikely in the case of a chest shot from the front. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So are you still trying to say that a round will knock somebody down? LOL

Since it's already beeen explained numerous times, I won't do it again. There's nothing arguable about it. It can't happen! Somebody might fall after being shot, but not knocked down.

wormil
02-12-2007, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
...they fly back a bit and go down hard
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, I hate to beat a dead horse but you're caught up in movie magic. I haven't killed a human or seen a human killed with a shotgun but I have killed enough animals from deer down to squirrel to know that shotguns are not going to knock you off your feet. They don't even knock small animals off their feet, let alone a human.

As for effective range, I don't use buckshot but in my experience the effective range for slugs is out to about 60 yards with a max effective range of about 100 yards with a rifled barrel... smaller shot, 4 or 6, out to about 30 yards.

This is a bit old but shotguns haven't changed too drastically...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> "After testing the shotguns which are in sue by the Scout Platoon, report that at a range of 100 yards the gun is not effective. At a range of 50 yards the gun has a dispersion of about 8 feet and will disable a man. At close range it is very effective and will kill." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
source: Canfield, Bruce. US Infantry Weapons of the First World War. Lincoln, RI: Andrew Mowbray, 2000: 135.

Many factors will influence the effective range such as choke, skill, size of shot, composition of shot, buffering material... those just for starters.

StitchFC
02-12-2007, 06:00 PM
having hunted some animals myself with .308 7mm mag and shotgun - up to and including deer and boar - again people are misinterpretting what I said

knockdown - will the target REMAIN STANDING yes or no

fly back a bit and go down hard - going down hard means it aint getting up - flying back a bit whether it is reflex of getting hit or impact is irrelevant it is an observation of what happens - having shot a boar with approved slug from a shotgun that was capped to 2 rounds - did it just crumple - no - did it move from the impact - yes - did I say it went 20 feet - no - did it leave its legs momentarily - yes - is it a result of the force imparted or the reflex of getting shot - I dont know.

so to recap your viewpoint - if I hit a live target that weighs ~160lbs it will always just crumple - it will never react it will never leave its feet - it 100 percent always crumples and never does anything else?

dunjensdeath
02-12-2007, 06:13 PM
I wish the lightweight shotty wasnt so newb, id rock that sh it constantly

maxx_death_4u
02-12-2007, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StitchFC:
having hunted some animals myself with .308 7mm mag and shotgun - up to and including deer and boar - again people are misinterpretting what I said

knockdown - will the target REMAIN STANDING yes or no

fly back a bit and go down hard - going down hard means it aint getting up - flying back a bit whether it is reflex of getting hit or impact is irrelevant it is an observation of what happens - having shot a boar with approved slug from a shotgun that was capped to 2 rounds - did it just crumple - no - did it move from the impact - yes - did I say it went 20 feet - no - did it leave its legs momentarily - yes - is it a result of the force imparted or the reflex of getting shot - I dont know.

so to recap your viewpoint - if I hit a live target that weighs ~160lbs it will always just crumple - it will never react it will never leave its feet - it 100 percent always crumples and never does anything else? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you watch the video? Your target may react, but it will be just that (muscle movement of your target). It will have NOTHING to do with the bullet, other than the hole it left.

jat54321
02-12-2007, 07:14 PM
i bet if i shoot him in the legs he'll be knocked down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Bored_1
02-12-2007, 08:07 PM
What I think is that the shotguns are real to life, I'm sure a shotgun could make all the shots in R6V easily.

The probel is that all the other weaposn *aren't* true to life, they are "scaled down" to accomidate the game's short ranges. Whereas the shotguns seem to behave like perfectly normal shotguns.

An assault rifle that's not designed for close combat is effective poabably 200+ yard (not a gun guru, just making up a logical number). While the ARs in R6V are effective up to about 50 yards or so.

randolfphe
02-12-2007, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by navyredman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">so - against an armored target at short range even if the armor stops the penetration the impact value or "kick" can knock down a lot of normal people - at longer ranges it might not even be noticed by them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A round from a gun CANNOT knock a person down.

That is stricky movie magic. It is physically immpossible for something that light no matter what the velocity to move something with the weight of an adult human. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

people get knocked down by the pain. the armored vests cannot protect you from getting your wind knocked out by a round at close range. so yes, it does in fact knock you down

randolfphe
02-12-2007, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bored_1:
What I think is that the shotguns are real to life, I'm sure a shotgun could make all the shots in R6V easily.

The probel is that all the other weaposn *aren't* true to life, they are "scaled down" to accomidate the game's short ranges. Whereas the shotguns seem to behave like perfectly normal shotguns.

An assault rifle that's not designed for close combat is effective poabably 200+ yard (not a gun guru, just making up a logical number). While the ARs in R6V are effective up to about 50 yards or so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

im in complete agreement with you. i hate people who say the guns should be scaled down to accommodate the smg or shotgun. the guns should be scaled up to meet their realistic properties

navyredman
02-13-2007, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">people get knocked down by the pain. the armored vests cannot protect you from getting your wind knocked out by a round at close range. so yes, it does in fact knock you down </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


AGAIN!!! LOL

They ARE NOT GETTING KNOCKED DOWN. They are falling down from the pain. So no, in fact they do NOT knock you down.

Also, it is not a matter of perception here. The problem is comprehension.

There are a few here that don't comprehend the difference between something knocking you down, and reaction.

Everything and everybody react different to different stress levels. However, it is only reaction that you are seeing.

TROUBLENSB
02-13-2007, 03:39 PM
I just want to reitterate that a single point blank shotgun hit to the chest of a person in class III body armor is not going to be an instant kill. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Talk all you want about falling down or knocking down.

And for those who will bring up Fletchlettes, they have not been issued since Vietnam. Besides, step back and shoot the wall while you are in the game, you will see a 9 hit pattern. As in 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00 Buck (common fare in law enforcement and the U.S. Military). Thanks.

TROUBLENSB

maxx_death_4u
02-13-2007, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jat54321:
i bet if i shoot him in the legs he'll be knocked down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So does ice knock you down? It takes your legs out from under you (what you imply a shotgun would do), is that knocking you down, or making you fall?

It's not going to be like when someone tackles your legs in football, THAT is knocking them down!

jat54321
02-13-2007, 08:33 PM
my comment was meant as a jest towards those complaining about knockdowns, i wasnt hoping to start something with that maxx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

maxx_death_4u
02-13-2007, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jat54321:
my comment was meant as a jest towards those complaining about knockdowns, i wasnt hoping to start something with that maxx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool, I kind of figured that with the emoticon. But somebody would twist it if left alone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

jat54321
02-14-2007, 10:39 AM
hahah very true

it would probably sound like:

"according to my precise scientific knowledge about every shotgun in the world as well as my ballistics experience, i could tell you that a shot to the leg approximately 17.5 inches up the person would fall to the ground due to the blunt force trauma on a point of balance depending on how close the shot was etc etc etc"