PDA

View Full Version : The Dreaded Wobbles... may not be input related



PlaneEater
02-18-2006, 12:33 PM
The more I watch tracks of myself and other planes trying to swim like fish, the more I'm thinking the Wobbles are a more general physics engine problem than specific plane FMs.

It looks more like the simulations of the 'centering' force of the airstream and the force of the aircraft's inertia from yawing or pitching are 'fighting' or out of synch, or aren't interacting right.

It's hard to describe. I can picture what might be going on with the game engine in my head, but putting it in words is difficult.

Either the inertia generated from the plane being 'pushed' back to center is too great or isn't dissipating right, or the centering force and the interia are acting in offset pulses that should be synchronized. Or something very similar.

Somebody who speaks fluent Russian might want to email Oleg about this so he can understand it. It's worth looking into, at least.

PlaneEater
02-18-2006, 12:33 PM
The more I watch tracks of myself and other planes trying to swim like fish, the more I'm thinking the Wobbles are a more general physics engine problem than specific plane FMs.

It looks more like the simulations of the 'centering' force of the airstream and the force of the aircraft's inertia from yawing or pitching are 'fighting' or out of synch, or aren't interacting right.

It's hard to describe. I can picture what might be going on with the game engine in my head, but putting it in words is difficult.

Either the inertia generated from the plane being 'pushed' back to center is too great or isn't dissipating right, or the centering force and the interia are acting in offset pulses that should be synchronized. Or something very similar.

Somebody who speaks fluent Russian might want to email Oleg about this so he can understand it. It's worth looking into, at least.

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 04:06 PM
The CG is placed too far aft on IL2 American planes (havent really tried others yet). We have a whole 11 page thread going on the topic. Join in!

Any airplane with a too far aft CG and weight out on the wings will perform the same way. The single engine fighters in IL2 dont have any real weight out on the wings, so it can only be too far aft CG. If anyone can get ahold of a CG envelope for their favorite airplane and then find out where Oleg has the CG placed, we will be able to get a clearer picture and solve the problem as long as airfoil aspect ratios are modeled properly in IL2.

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 05:05 PM
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours

AFJ_Locust
02-18-2006, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you have the same wobbles the rest of us do you just dont recognize it as the wobbles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Trust me this thing is like driveing a ship on rough seas....

The ac bobble about its redicules imo

Spinnetti
02-18-2006, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never noticed either, but its there.
Fly straight and level at around 400kph (for consistancy). Apply full rudder, then immediatly let go.

Record the track

Watch from outside, aft view.

The tail should stop moving when the rudder returns to center, but it doesn't; it fishes back and forth.

Folks are right - this isn't modelled right, but on the other hand, its never bothered me flying, and until it was pointed out to me, I never noticed it

CornbreadPattie
02-18-2006, 08:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it has to do with ultra sensitive sticks with a similar feel to the MS Sidewinder. Have you ever tried to play with that? It f---ing blows. It's waaayy too sensitive, even with a big deadzone. Some of the newest models continue with the trend of all-too-sensitive inputs. Yaw, Pitch, and Roll all get affected.

I would probably think I had wobbles too if I had a flimsy stick and never tried anything but US planes.

I rock in US planes. I blew 6 bandits out of the sky in an online battle on full real - felt no wobble there.

This issue should probably be resolved with a new stick.

I rock.

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spinnetti:

The tail should stop moving when the rudder returns to center, but it doesn't; it fishes back and forth.

but on the other hand, its never bothered me flying, and until it was pointed out to me, I never noticed it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, hold on there. Your points will be in bold face, my relies will be in yellow

" The tail should stop moving when the rudder returns to center, but it doesn't; it fishes back and forth."

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">It shouldn't? Why shouldn't it? What force makes the nose snap back to center and then instantly stop, glued in place, without yawing over-center to the other side by some fair degree, when you get off the rudder? what counters that momentum of the plane pulling itself back straight and then over-center, back and forth, until it is at zero yaw?</span>

" Folks are right - this isn't modelled right,"

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">According to who? Folks on a message board? Who told you this was wrong? And why did you listen? You're not describing anything I would say is out of the ordinary...what should happen when you are using 100% full right rudder, and then pick up your feet and let the plane right itself? Have you ever played darts? Toss one but don't try to toss it straight. See it yaw back and forth, over center and back until it rights itself? Try it, then tell me why planes should snap back to center and then stay perfectly on center with zero yaw input after full rudder was applied. think about it- without the pilot input, the plane will fishtail back and forth until it's fore and aft stability is restored by virtue of the aerodynamics of the plane.</span>

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 08:55 PM
Chuck, read this,

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Stability/Page4.html

First few sentences on that site:

Static directional stability is a measure of the aircraft's resistance to slipping. The greater the static directional stability the quicker the aircraft will turn into a relative wind which is not aligned with the longitudinal axis. (my input: or return to the relative wind aligned with the long. axis ie. pilot upset)

The main contributor to the static directional stability is the fin. Both the size and arm of the fin determine the directional stability of the aircraft. The further the vertical fin is behind the center of gravity the more static directional stability the aircraft will have. (This is often called the weather veining effect, because it works the same way as a weather vein.)


crazyivan??? another candidate for combining? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 09:04 PM
Oh my

from your website, again:

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">"However, if the aircraft has a lot of angular moment it will overshoot and slip in the opposite direction. The fin will then yaw it back and so on. The nose may wind up yawing back and forth several times before it settles down to non-slipping flight."</span>

I'll say it again: this is my point, exactly. If you don't understand that in regards to the example I posted about, I'll quote it for you. maybe this whole thing is you butting into a conversation, in the middle?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours



I never noticed either, but its there.
Fly straight and level at around 400kph (for consistancy). Apply full rudder, then immediatly let go.

Record the track

Watch from outside, aft view.

The tail should stop moving when the rudder returns to center, but it doesn't; it fishes back and forth.

Folks are right - this isn't modelled right, but on the other hand, its never bothered me flying, and until it was pointed out to me, I never noticed it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, maybe you didn't read all of the thread or something? How can I produce more yaw than with the effect of full rudder? Enlighten me on that one, please

On one hand, you're using one part of that website to prove me wrong, and when it proves me right, you're saying, OK, now look at this other part that proves me wrong, and did you see the movies? Well, thew movies must prove the other part of that website wrong. Say, what kind of crazy website IS that?

You can't have it both ways. Which parts of that website are telling the truth, now? You tell me- are all the parts that back up what I said just a joke? Or are they wrong? When you quote something from that webpage, it's God's word, and when I quote seomthing from the same webpage it's Just Not So?

Please, tell me which parts are True and which are False on that website, I'm dying to know, but I'll bet it's a strange coincidence that whatever I post from it will always be False, right?

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 09:08 PM
Did you watch the movies?

Another sentence from that site... (which you conveniently omitted that was right before the sentence quoted.... hmmmm.. wonder why?)


Dynamic Directional Stability
When the aircraft slips the fin will turn the aircraft back into the relative wind. In most aircraft this tendency is nearly dead beat. This means that the aircraft does not overshoot and yaw back and forth much, it just turns quickly into the relative wind and stops there.

Angular moment (from your post) is demonstrated in the twin on that website with engines on the wings and fuel in the tip tanks. Now, i dont know if IL2 made the P51 a twin with tip tanks, but i didnt see any out there on the wings when i looked.

Im thinking perhaps you should have finished that degee.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 09:12 PM
Heres the link to the movie (again) if you cant find it. Be sure to click on "show what happens" after changing the relative wind. Does that airplane look anything like the models i tested? Also notice the notes after the movie completes.

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Stability/Page4.html

Now i dont expect these aircraft to "snap back", but if you read my testing, the oscillations are excessive compared to earlier releases of this sim and how the actual aircraft behaves.

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 09:28 PM
And since we are on the subject of your aero degree. Can you tell us what would happen in any airplane if you move the CG too far aft with its effect on yaw and dynamic stability as opposed to a more centered CG? Does it get more or less stable.... is it more or less prone to spins... and what would recovery characteristics be like with an excessive aft CG? Im trying to brush up my aero knowledge... thanks..

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 09:32 PM
Tony...tell me, which parts of that site tell the turth and which parts lie?

I'm quoting from the same site as you...but somehow, you seem to be able to tell the parts which are really true from the parts that are made to trap idiots like me

Can I just assume that whenever I post something from that website, it's going to be wrong, but when you do the same thing, it's going to be right?

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonyt1960:
And since we are on the subject of your aero degree. Can you tell us what would happen in any airplane if you move the CG too far aft with its effect on yaw and dynamic stability as opposed to a more centered CG? Does it get more or less stable.... is it more or less prone to spins... and what would recovery characteristics be like with an excessive aft CG? Im trying to brush up my aero knowledge... thanks.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this where you prove what an idiot I am, or is this where you prove what an @sshole you are? Good advice, my friend: grab whatever crawled up your butt with both hands, and yank it on out. The books with the answers to those situations are right on my shelf, and even if I didn't have them, I'm online. I am not so insecure about myself that I have to prove anything to you. Even if I were, and I did, what difference would it make? You refuse to acknowledge it when I'm in the right; you just plow ahead

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 09:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Tony...tell me, which parts of that site tell the turth and which parts lie?

I'm quoting from the same site as you...but somehow, you seem to be able to tell the parts which are really true from the parts that are made to trap idiots like me

Can I just assume that whenever I post something from that website, it's going to be wrong, but when you do the same thing, it's going to be right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Everything on that site is accurate. Read it. Note the comparisons in airframes and what the text refers to.

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonyt1960:
And since we are on the subject of your aero degree. Can you tell us what would happen in any airplane if you move the CG too far aft with its effect on yaw and dynamic stability as opposed to a more centered CG? Does it get more or less stable.... is it more or less prone to spins... and what would recovery characteristics be like with an excessive aft CG? Im trying to brush up my aero knowledge... thanks.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this where you prove what an idiot I am, or is this where you prove what an @sshole you are? Good advice, my friend: grab whatever crawled up your butt with both hands, and yank it on out. The books with the answers to those situations are right on my shelf, and even if I didn't have them, I'm online. I am not so insecure about myself that I have to prove anything to you. Even if I were, and I did, what difference would it make? You refuse to acknowledge it when I'm in the right; you just plow ahead </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow, now were into personal attacks.... ok Chief.. sorry i bothered ya. Hope your night gets better.... S!

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 09:44 PM
Is that chief business supposed to bug me, Tony?

the personal comment is in reply to two things you posted to me. No actually, three. On the third strike, you were out.

If you don't like it, Superstar, then maybe you shouldn't pick fights

Strike one: "Im thinking perhaps you should have finished that degee...." I thought maybe that just came across wrong so I ignored it

Strike two: "Heres the link to the movie (again) if you cant find it." Then I figured, hey, this guy's really laying it on thick. What is with this guy

Then Strike three: "And since we are on the subject of your aero degree..." Bingo, stick down, gloves off, you threw the first punch... three times

Now I know you're not dumb, so drop the innocent/stupid act. You wanted a fight, and you got one. You wanted to show me up, and now you think maybe you made a mistake, so now it's 'Oh my, don't get Mad little feller, no need to get personal'

Good for the Goose, good for the Gander, Tony. I'm not surprised you don't like that treatment, most folks don't. Maybe you can try being civil, and you won't get the mud pies so much. But please, don't pull the innocent lambykins BS with me, as if I don't know when I'm punched. It's pathetic

The situation I was talking about was full rudder, pilot gets off the rudder suddenly, end of story. You'd have seen that if you bothered to read what I posted. You assume I mean whenever there's any amount of yaw. Sorry you didn't get your facts straight on that issue before you went off the Holier-Than-Thou end, but that's your fault, not mine- I can't make you read

Chuck_Older
02-18-2006, 10:07 PM
Oh hey, but on the plus side, my headache's cleared up, so thanks, I guess

Tully__
02-18-2006, 10:19 PM
Chuck & Tony, chill or I'll organise a holiday for you both.

There is a problem, it's subjective affect varies. This is not the first flight model trait that doesn't perform the same on all machines, the difference is probably down to CPU internal timings or something equally obscure. I have no doubt that the dev team are taking it into consideration as the wording in the 4.03 patch readme suggests they're trying to find things to sort it out without too much risk of breaking the FM on unaffected aircraft. Lets just leave it at that between you two.

As for my take, I don't think it's an input problem either, though tuning input settings so that sudden inputs are harder to make can moderate the problem response. I agree that it looks like either a mass distribution error or a yaw damping problem (maybe a bit of both).

tonyt1960
02-18-2006, 10:32 PM
Tully,

I did a complete install the other day. Same CPU, same stick, same pedals, same aircraft models and there is a notable difference between 303m to 401m which continues into the later patches. We're having a pretty good discussion about it on the other thread which describes the test i performed in full detail and my observations including why i did the test. Join in!. Its a good thread and somewhat civilized with only a few minor bumps along the way.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-18-2006, 11:09 PM
tonyt:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">there is a notable difference between 303m to 401m which continues into the later patches. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
tonyt, you should know that 3.xy flight models and 4.yz flight models are NOT even supposed to be the same thing. Ask around if you have not heard what is going on here.

tonyt:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The CG is placed too far aft on IL2 American planes (havent really tried others yet). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly, as suggested in the other thread, try some early War planes. If you like testing "heavy" or "massive" planes, try the IL-2 or Ju-87 -- shucks, the game was originally designed around the IL-2. Get on it. Even "real life" pilots flew these aircraft, from time to time, long ago.

I'm starting to wonder if the Wobbles are realistic, perhaps a bit too fast in oscillation possibly? But they could be a step in the evolution of FM's toward BoB And Beyond.

shinden1974
02-19-2006, 12:37 AM
Well...I know I'll end up joining the tribe of strange folk...but my wobbles just went away...

I was experimenting on turning off different difficulty options and how they effect the wobble (I've only had a heavy wobble in the Yaw axis) on the corsair.

Turning off Spins and stalls removed them completely, and torque and gyro reduced them to a level that I see with most planes since 4.01m.

I tried turning everything back on and the corsair handled like the torque and gyro were still off! Considering all the wierd solutions I've seen, I doubt what worked for me would help anyone else...but I'm happy!

I wouldn't put it past this sim for the wobble to be a FM glitch. I've seen tracks where all of a sudden my plane will fly towards the stratosphere backwards than return to it's original point as if beamed up by a tractor beam. A stuka crew bailed out with the engine running and the thing just cicled around the map...diving, gaining speed, nosing up, gaining altitude, repeat...

VW-IceFire
02-19-2006, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonyt1960:
Tully,

I did a complete install the other day. Same CPU, same stick, same pedals, same aircraft models and there is a notable difference between 303m to 401m which continues into the later patches. We're having a pretty good discussion about it on the other thread which describes the test i performed in full detail and my observations including why i did the test. Join in!. Its a good thread and somewhat civilized with only a few minor bumps along the way.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Between 303 and 401 they introduced the new FM...so there is one reason for change http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I didn't have a serious problem with 401. 402 made it bad and 403 has partially fixed it although the more aircraft I fly the more I notice it. One thing that is bothering me right now is if I hold my aircraft in a slight bank I get a back and forth motion as if I'm moving the stick forward and backwards slightly...sort of a "pulsing" sort of movement up and down in the turn.

I've gone over all my connections, all of the joystick tests I can do, other games...this stick is now a two month old X-52 and its extremely precise. But the game treats it like its spiking. Using the filter doesn't help and none of the other software show any spiking...more to the point both of my joysticks show the same behavior so I doubt its the stick or input properties. Its in the game's physics/flight modeling somewhere in relation to the software/hardware combination I have.

kilbil19er
02-19-2006, 08:37 AM
This new aspect of the flight model has porked the rest of it. Even with a basic turn the slip indicator bobs about as if your flying in space with no gravity.

Kilbil19er

Chuck_Older
02-19-2006, 10:20 AM
Guys-

Although Tony and I don't like each other, he very much knows what he's talking about in my opinion- my deal is that he's taking me out of context given the situation I was referring to, not that he's wrong about how things work. I don't remember exactly when the FM changed, but I cannot recall 'wobbles' being mentioned before 4.02, so the 3.03- 4.01 makes perfect sense to me- but why didn't we wobble in 4.01 then? Or didn't we recognise it? Or if we did, how come it wasn't a problem until 4.02?

I don't have wobbles in my opinion. However, I will say that my turn/slip indicators will do a crazy dance if I'm in a storm- and this is much different, visually from when I'm manuevering, in which case they will bobble a bit, but I don't think it's excessive or out of line- it's a small instrument. I just tried a few rudder settings offline to see if I could make the planes wobble- so far I haven't. Leadspitter is having a devil of a time with this and he found *some* releif- with settings that apparently make the trouble worse for other people

Icefire's trouble apparently went away...and came back! There's got to be an answer, but it seems as if there's a combination of factors- take LeadSpitter's trouble for example- how many things did he try, in conjunction with the rudder settings he's using? Other folks didn't do what he did- and those settings won't work for them

Tony- truce for a moment, OK?

have you seen any correlation between the use of rudder pedals, twist sticks, or rudder rocker switches and the wobbles? Does one type tend to display the wobble more than another? You seem to have looked at this first hand

Lemky
02-19-2006, 10:40 AM
Hi Tonyt1960. Welcome to the forms,you have bring new life to the wobbles.These yaw problems have hurt the game from 4.01 patch.
To your question about the CG to far aft,I would have to say in a stall one might not get the nose down to break the stall,could lead to a spin,to recover for the spin might be imposible because it is now a flat spin.
The CG to far aft would make the plane very unstable.

VW-IceFire
02-19-2006, 10:44 AM
I got it to go away again...I found that I was missing a 0 once again on the Z-axis in [joystick-rts].

It seems to come and go...its really confusing.

Config.ini seems to like to re-write itself...but why when I do a video driver update or a joystick driver update? The game shouldn't even know...should it?

Chuck_Older
02-19-2006, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Config.ini seems to like to re-write itself...but why when I do a video driver update or a joystick driver update? The game shouldn't even know...should it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had this happen to me for a few months, actually, concerning sound, this time last year. There would be no sound at all in the sim...but sound worked on the PC. I eventually looked through the config file, and sounduse=0 was present. So I set it to 1, and sound worked. Next play session- no sound. Every play session I had to manually set sounduse=1. I can't recall if the file was read-only or not, but mine is not set to read-only anymore because I tweak settings- and I don't have sounduse issues anymore.

Lemky
02-19-2006, 11:02 AM
Hi Chuck_Older
As I posted once before,I have the Yaw osolations.For the rudder control I have used the twist stick and the rudder pedals with no sucsess,But did try the Logitech MOMO steering wheel for rudder conrtol and did not get the yaw osolations.Because it is stiff and will not let you swing the nose of the plane fast.Now a really good set of stiff ruder pedals might be the cure,but not every one that buys this game can aford big cash out for these pedals.

Wild.Bill.Kelso
02-19-2006, 12:01 PM
After reading Tonyt's Wobble thread the past 2 days, I read up on how to configure the joystick in the Hardware/Input screen and really made my P-47 MUCH more flyable. Before I made the adjustments I did the full rudder right test. Full rudder right, then let go... The ac almost flipped over, wobbled several times and straightened out.

I adjusted the Hardware/Input settings, starting out with CrazyIvan's settings. Tested it, tweaked it, tested it... and also ended up turning off the Torque and Gyro effect in the difficulty settings. All this help a LOT. I shot down about 70% more aircraft and ground targets last night than ever before.

tonyt1960
02-19-2006, 12:06 PM
Chuck,

My intentions with the statements you mentioned were not meant as punches in the face rather humorous barbs and pokes. I know tone isnt interpreted well over the net, so my bad and apologies if it came across as arrogance. But hey, im a NYer, thats how we communicate sometimes... You should have seen me when i was a cocky young pilot...ouch... now im just an older and fatter cocky pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Its cool, i got thick skin. Also, i dont know you well enough to judge either way if i like you or not. But your truce offer is a step in the right direction, truce accepted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, back on topic...

I have only had the sim for a little over two weeks. So im not really sure of similarities of controls with respect to those who notice it, and those that dont have problems. But i'll certainly keep an eye on it now... good point.

My personal opinion is that its complete flight model design causing the problem. My other personal opinion is i could be 100% wrong (we wont know till a dev posts or Oleg himself). Having the sim for only a short period of time, the only experience i can compare it to is real aircraft behavior. This sim being modeled as accurate as possible (which it is in many respects, and the best sim i've flown aside from Level D's) i decided to give some input if it would help out with a controlled experiment. I still cant get over the interest it has generated. I think its getting up to 8000 views already? Makes it all worthwhile... Cheers!

VW-IceFire
02-19-2006, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonyt1960:
Chuck,

My intentions with the statements you mentioned were not meant as punches in the face rather humorous barbs and pokes. I know tone isnt interpreted well over the net, so my bad and apologies if it came across as arrogance. But hey, im a NYer, thats how we communicate sometimes... You should have seen me when i was a cocky young pilot...ouch... now im just an older and fatter cocky pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Its cool, i got thick skin. Also, i dont know you well enough to judge either way if i like you or not. But your truce offer is a step in the right direction, truce accepted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, back on topic...

I have only had the sim for a little over two weeks. So im not really sure of similarities of controls with respect to those who notice it, and those that dont have problems. But i'll certainly keep an eye on it now... good point.

My personal opinion is that its complete flight model design causing the problem. My other personal opinion is i could be 100% wrong (we wont know till a dev posts or Oleg himself). Having the sim for only a short period of time, the only experience i can compare it to is real aircraft behavior. This sim being modeled as accurate as possible (which it is in many respects, and the best sim i've flown aside from Level D's) i decided to give some input if it would help out with a controlled experiment. I still cant get over the interest it has generated. I think its getting up to 8000 views already? Makes it all worthwhile... Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well it certainly helps to have a few people who know from first hand experience something about flying. I'm just an armchair pilot right now...depending on what I do with myself that may change sometime but at the moment all I can feel is frustration when all of the sudden the game gives me the wobbles back and I go from smooth controlled and precise attempts to deflection shoot to nose uncontrollably swaying about with no ability to control the aircrft much less put a few cannon shells on target.

It doesn't feel or even look real...but I just have a feeling and thats all I can go on.

Chuck_Older
02-19-2006, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tonyt1960:
Chuck,

My intentions with the statements you mentioned were not meant as punches in the face rather humorous barbs and pokes. I know tone isnt interpreted well over the net, so my bad and apologies if it came across as arrogance. But hey, im a NYer, thats how we communicate sometimes... You should have seen me when i was a cocky young pilot...ouch... now im just an older and fatter cocky pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Its cool, i got thick skin. Also, i dont know you well enough to judge either way if i like you or not. But your truce offer is a step in the right direction, truce accepted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, back on topic...

I have only had the sim for a little over two weeks. So im not really sure of similarities of controls with respect to those who notice it, and those that dont have problems. But i'll certainly keep an eye on it now... good point.

My personal opinion is that its complete flight model design causing the problem. My other personal opinion is i could be 100% wrong (we wont know till a dev posts or Oleg himself). Having the sim for only a short period of time, the only experience i can compare it to is real aircraft behavior. This sim being modeled as accurate as possible (which it is in many respects, and the best sim i've flown aside from Level D's) i decided to give some input if it would help out with a controlled experiment. I still cant get over the interest it has generated. I think its getting up to 8000 views already? Makes it all worthwhile... Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not offended either, Tony. Sorry we got our claws out, but I'm glad we can work it out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

chaikanut
02-21-2006, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shinden1974:
Well...I know I'll end up joining the tribe of strange folk...but my wobbles just went away...

I was experimenting on turning off different difficulty options and how they effect the wobble (I've only had a heavy wobble in the Yaw axis) on the corsair.

Turning off Spins and stalls removed them completely, and torque and gyro reduced them to a level that I see with most planes since 4.01m.

I tried turning everything back on and the corsair handled like the torque and gyro were still off! Considering all the wierd solutions I've seen, I doubt what worked for me would help anyone else...but I'm happy!

I wouldn't put it past this sim for the wobble to be a FM glitch. I've seen tracks where all of a sudden my plane will fly towards the stratosphere backwards than return to it's original point as if beamed up by a tractor beam. A stuka crew bailed out with the engine running and the thing just cicled around the map...diving, gaining speed, nosing up, gaining altitude, repeat... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is exactly what I did. I turned stalls and spins off and changed a bit my stick settings. When I turned them back on, the wobbles were far less and I dont think it is just the stick.

IL2-chuter
02-22-2006, 04:32 AM
(I grew up around airplanes and got my license in 1976 and I'm still working in aviation. STILL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif)
My observation is this is all one flight model with some adjustable parameters due to the unique characteristics some of the planes are missing. The stated instability, though I would guess it is about right at slow speeds should largely disappear by maneuvering speed and the planes should be on freakin rails at top speed. The last update went more this direction. Stalls . . . we have yet to see an accurately modeled PCsim stall . . . are awaiting some sort of technical breakthrough. Back to the wobble topic, I just gotta say I can't believe the real planes were as difficult to get guns on target as in the game, I've never flown a plane that behaved anything quite like that, ever. I agree with the aft CG feel but I think that explanation would require the assumption that the physics are extraordinarily accurate. On the other hand the pause/accel buttons are a cool feature they didn't originally have and the restrooms are certainly nicer than on the real . . . thing. . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Still can't groundloop . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


PS. I've got to add that feeling (the backside thingy) is an absolute integral part of sport (as opposed to instrument) flying and without it it's just weird trying to fly the computer. I find the MSFFB2 (with an edited FFB folder) helps an awful lot but . . . you still have to get in the air for real to get a full fix.

SeaFireLIV
02-22-2006, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
All this is great, and I'm all for solving this issue

However, I never had wobbles and I don't now. You and I have the same code for v4.03

I have trouble understanding how your install interprets joystick input differently from mine, and I have trouble understanding how CG in some planes affects mt planes differently from yours </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My views very similar to chuck.

I really am not sure what`s happening, but I think we have a combination of problems all mixing themselves.

1. Those who really have some kind of Patch induced `wobble`.
2. Those who actually don`t have a `wobble` problem but have deduced that the new 4.02/3 aircraft effects that oleg has included is a `wobble` problem, when it isn`t. It`s just the new FM `BOB` effect on planes that are affected in flight.
3. Those who KNOW that there`s no problem, but hate the new more realistic effect because they can`t fly and shoot like ACES any more and have chosen this `wobble` as an excuse to say there`s a bug.
4. A combination of ALL the above.
Personally, I don`t think there`s a problem and if there is a problem, it`s very small, perhaps only needing a reconfiguration of the joystick settings.


Oleg`s quote:

"V4.01 introduces the next generation pre-Battle of Britain Flight Model (FM). In this add-on we are introducing a part of the FM from our next simulation (BOB) for worldwide open beta test in our current engine. Flight model in the version 4.01 has already been extensively tested by nearly 40 real pilots from around the world and we received very positive feedback."


It is from this Patch (4.01) that all the complaints began and even now with 4.03 some still aren`t happy, and they won`t be until the plane flies without any realistic atmospheric deviation whatsoever!

Unfortunately, after all the complaints, I think that Oleg`s BOB will NOt have the realistic FM flight modelling and will prob have Spits and 109s flying on rails. really.

thomb314
02-22-2006, 10:09 AM
As I tried to point out several months ago:
1. The 4.XX series of patches have completely new and probably unrealistic oscillation characteristic of the nose. Try pointing the nose of a P-51D mustang somewhere, it bobs up/down in a very unrealistic matter. (The effect is very subtle, but if you look for it you can see it)

2. IMO, this is the wobble problem. Why do some not have it? Well, if your input settings are tweaked, it could be hard to notice. Try to get this: input settings may help camouflage the problem, but (as I explained in an earlier post) the actualy fault is in the physics model only. It can only be fixed by a flight model tweak.

The problem itself has nothing to do with input. And yes, everybody has it. If you don't have it, you probably have not realized what we're actually talking about.
(I'm talking about the frequency and damping of nose oscillations, which is physics only)

bogusheadbox
02-22-2006, 10:13 AM
I have a lot less flying time than a lot of people here on the forums with a limited time spent in ultralights and small aerobatic aircraft. And though i agree with tony in the sense that aircraft i have been in have not had a similar "wobble" effect. I can only wonder if it is due to the following.

The rudder imputs of the craft i did fly (under instruction) had heavy rudder imputs. i.e. you have to put a fair amount of force on the pedal to move it (especially under acrobatics) and also have to apply force to centre the rudder.



So my question is....

.... is it because I can let go of my joystick and have it "snap" back to centre in an eyeblink and the aircraft will wobble..... When in real life when i do centre the rudder, even if i do it as fast as i can. It will no way have same speed and "snap" as i could achieve off of a joystick or pedal arrangement.


Based on this here is my hypothesis.

(values for argument purposes)
Say joystick detects and sends information to computer on rudder position every 0.05 seconds, But you are able to produce a full range of movement within this time span. Then your aircraft will be detecting 0 deg rudder, followed by 45 deg rudderwith no inclimental increase in the interim.

No wonder it decides to "wobble" about.

Possible answer devised on my hypothesis taking into consideration i don't really have any clue.

Maybe if we could make the rudder present flight values through its entire arc when moving to intended inclination instead of providing a flight mechanic for the position the stick is suddenly at...... Maybe that could solve the issue.

I.e. If i was to quickly put full right rudder.... The computer may detect 0,5,15,40,45 degrees,
but the sim would infact swing the rudder through 0,3,5,7,9,11,....... in almost the same time.

Therefore the physics calculations would be used on a smaller range of motion over smaller frame of timeover many segments, instead of making a calculation based on a larger difference in rudder movement, over a larger rate of time at less frequent intervals through the range of motion.

What you think?

DaimonSyrius
02-22-2006, 10:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I cannot recall 'wobbles' being mentioned before 4.02, so the 3.03- 4.01 makes perfect sense to me- but why didn't we wobble in 4.01 then? Or didn't we recognise it? Or if we did, how come it wasn't a problem until 4.02?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm talking just off my memory here, but if I remember right, 4.01 dealt mostly with introducing, or enhancing, inertial effects **edit* and torque, of course. **

And then, on 4.02 a handful of other forces were also dropped in (or enhanced): gyroscopic, P-factor, etc.

OK, not off my head now, I just checked the readme's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

here's 4.02:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">New Features

Flight Model

- adjusted ground effect *
- adjusted gyro effect *
- Aerodynamic focus dependency on angle of attack *
- Flap position now affects aileron sensitivity
.../... (bits or corrections of individual aircraft) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All this happened in the transition from 4.01 to 4.02. Now, 4.01 readme is not that specific, but I still recall it being mostly about inertial effects **edit* and torque, of course. **

Cheers,
S.
P.S.: Nice way out of a fight, chaps http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LEXX_Luthor
02-22-2006, 11:12 AM
I'll have to go with bogusheadbox http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif and SeaFire. Alot may be related to trying to model real life control hardware and modelling their effects by using plastic miniature joysticks/rudder devices with little displacement distance. I imagine a truly 100% "realistic" World War 2 heavy fighter FM would be unusable by anyone if we depend on PC flight sim control hardware.

FA_Whisky
02-22-2006, 11:44 AM
Is it possible that joystick resolution might also cause the problem....? (128 vs 265 bit)

leitmotiv
02-22-2006, 12:31 PM
A few months ago my stick was juddering malevolently whenever I tried to climb after a dive. Initially I thought Oleg had thrown me a curve, but shortly thereafter my motherboard died. With a new state-of-the-art game computer I experienced no more judder. I have never experienced wobble with either of my computers. All of us have to spend a great deal of time calibrating stick, pedals, throttle, TrackIR, and whatever to get this sim to work right. I think approximately three weeks into using it is a bit premature to commence a pathology of PAC FIGHTERS, tonyt1960. I doubt if even the redoubtable Yeager could go out and buy the hardware and a copy of the sim and come home and fly worth a damn without going through hell for a few weeks trying to get all his ducks in line.

raisen
02-24-2006, 09:25 PM
I repeated tony1960's flight tests at a variety of speeds and altitudes for my own amusement and encountered very similar effects. Initially as Chuck appears to have been, I was flying around this effect.

I tested a variety of single engine aircraft (for the sake of time, no reason to suspect any of the other aircraft are immune - I simply haven't checked yet) I stuck to American and British aircraft, all of them appeared to demonstrate that same strong yaw axis "weathercocking" behaviour. I also made a couple of highly casual and subjective tests along the same lines with the Mossie, which seemed to behave in the same sort of way, although the period and duration of the yaw osscilation subjectively didn't appear to be as significant.


My own aeronautical experience only reaches currently to a trial lesson in a Cessna 172, part of which involved deliberate heavy applications of each flight control in turn. Sticking the boot into the rudder, the aircraft certainly snapped straight when that boot was removed, but there certainly wasn't any noticable oscillation that I can remember. A Cessna 172 though is specifically designed to be flown by hamfisted learners http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . I have no idea how a typical WWII warbird should respond. Hopefully not like these beasts in PF/FB/etc.

Just a thought, but everyone here must have fiddled about with stick settings in order to get the best out of their stick. After routine recalibration has anyone found it necessary to change their settings afterward, and did this alter the wobbles for them ?

I think I may just cycle all the difficulty options, then repeat tony1960's patented wobble test.

Raisen